Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Madeleine Albright is here. She was secretary of state from 1997 to 2001. Her approach to American Foreign policy was marked by a muscular commitment to the ideal of democracy. Her story began in far away lands, she was born in czechoslovakia before the start of world war ii. She looks back at her childhood in her latest book called prague winter a personal story of remembrance and war. The paper back version is just out. I am pleased to have her on this program. Welcome. Wonderful to visit you. Thank you. Rose you told me about this wonderful organization that you have started which is called which is all about the former Foreign Ministers around the world. Its sponsored by aspin, its the aspin Foreign Ministers forum we its unofficial name is madeleine and her exes. Rose laughs and we meet a couple times a year talk and share a lot of experience. I have a business, i have a Global Consulting firm and i teach at georgetown and im chairman of the board of the National Democratic institute which is something that was started in the 80s by ronald reagan. Rose tell me what you think the test in syria is. I think the test is ultimately what happens for the syrian people. Whether they will be able to live a way that they can have freedom, their Economic Life improves and that they its really about the syrian people, so thats one test. The other, frankly, charlie, is what happens in the region because partially the syria story is also a story that affects jordan and turkey and lebanon and the region generally. And its a complicated story of sectarian fighting and also a fight between the sunnis and shias so theres an awful lot of things going on there. Rose so what should the world do . I think that the world does have to have an influence on what happens. And i think that what we should all be doing is trying to figure out how to help the syrian people. How to deal with the problems of the refugees. How to make sure that this does not spread into a region thats already very complicated and i think operate multilaterally. Either with the United Nations or also with some kind of Ad Hoc Coalition and support those opposition groups that are working together to try to bring an end to what assad has been doing to them. Rose as you remember from the balkans, people used to say that history would judge the worlds outside powers badly if they did not do something. That there was a moral imperative. Is this similar . I feel that way. I think the question is what, however. And i do think that the International Powers are doing quite a lot in terms of humanitarian assistance. The United States, for instance, has provided Something Like 50 million in humanitarian assistance. Has been supporting the various groups to unite and give them recognize them, frankly. And then also try to be helpful in finding some kind of a diplomatic solution to this. I think the real issue comes down to what kind of military action and not every place is amenable to having some kind of military action. Rose is syria . In syria i think that we have to keep examining trying to figure out what can be done. I think its hard, charlie, i really do. Rose secretary of state clinton, who you worked with, panetta petraeus, all recommended we do something. And the president said no, and you say the president was right to say no and other people can ask this question how many syrians have to die before the west does something . Well, i think this has to constantly be reexamined. As i understand it, the president is looking at things again. Trying to figure out i talk about something called i made this up the doability doctrine. Rose right. Can we really make a difference . And i know some people have compared it to the we did something military in libya with nato. Very different kind of situation because the libyan army basically didnt exit. The question is whether theres value in creating a nofly zone. Whether it would really do something useful. Whether the questions i would ask is whether the Assad Military regime has been weakened so that in fact there can be a functional nofly zone. The other question i would ask is how many arms are needed there . As i understand it, there have been a provision of arms by other countries and i think it isnt just a matter of adding arms but doing something that will make it possible for the opposition groups to take power and to recognize that its over. Rose people are asking the longer you delay the more the people who are part of the rebels who do not necessarily act in american interest. Well, i think that there is the question as to whether the rebels have been penetrated by some group that is not friendly to the United States. Rose well, clearly there are people fighting on their side. I would like to see us do more. Thats im an activist, i believed it, i did hit in the balkans. I dont have access to all the material of people that are in office. I also dont quite know what it is that the secretaries and the general petraeus suggested. I do have a lot of confidence in the president and i think that he ultimately has to make a decision. What i think what is important is that they are relooking, as i understand it, as what can be done, what needs to be done. Exactly so as not to arrive at the position youre talking about. I think theyre very much aware of that. I think also secretary kerry is very interested in what is going on. Hes going generally into the region. I think he understands the issue and i think that this is an evolving situation. Rose benghazi. What happened . I think that what happened was that this was a dangerous place to be that, in fact, theres been an awful lot of testimony on this. Secretary clinton testified, secretary panetta testified that what happened was that they thought and i believe this that they thought it was a spontaneous kind of thing that then actually there were aspects of it that had been planned. I think that they have done everything they can to sort out what happened and let me just tell you, Everybody Knows me knows i loved being secretary of state except on august 7, 199. Rose exactly. When our you are embassies in kenya and tanzania were blown up. Same questions, what happened, did we know somewhat . What could we have known earlier and the truth is that i believe that everybodys instincts were try to figure out how to have safe places for our ambassadors to be. But this was not an embassy. It wasnt even a full consulate and i think that the state department and this review board has done an incredible amount to figure out what happened and it should not be i fully believe this, charlie this cannot go on being a political football. Its not a matter of the administration not turning over huge amounts of documents or being available to answer questions from the secretary on down. Rose you have the president announcing that he was going to pivot his administration toward the east and towards china and asia people including dick cheney who was sitting for an interview with me saying he worries about that because of the attention he thinks the middle east needs. Is there something risk of pivoting to china . Pivot was an unfortunate word. Rebalancing in some ways. We are an atlantic to pacific power. This might have been a joke but somebody said to me what are you going to do about west asia . I thought what is west asia . Its the middle east. So the fact that the president is now going to israel and as i understand it he may go to ramallah. So i think its not going to be any lack of attention on the middle east. Certainly secretary kerry is going and so i think we are capable of doing both. Rose what should the president hope to achieve in his visit to israel . Well, i think that what he wants to hes not going with a plan as i understand it. Rose he will have an agenda in his mind. Well, i think his agenda is obviously some Israeli Palestinian discussions but also kind of looking at what this situation is with syria, what this situation is with iran to have a facetoface discussion with our close ally the israelis and look at the area as a region and i think kind of maybe take the temperature a little bit in terms of what is doable. But as i understand it hes not going who w a plan or an american initiative. But obviously getting things going in a way where he can be listening. Rose some say they need an american plan. Well, i think theres a real problem having been there, done that, in terms of ultimately the americans could put down plans, but unless the parties buy into it nothing is going to happen. And so there has to be a way that it is in the best interests of the israelis and the palestinians to make a deal. I so believe in a twostate solution. I rose and do you think its at risk now because of demographic change and because of settlements and lots ofor things . Well, i think the demographic change actually works more towards a twostate solution because the demographic change if they were one state of israel with the the demographics dont work in favor of there being a jewish states which what the israelis are dedicated to having. So i dont think that particularly works. I do think that there is the settlements as has been said over and over again obviously makes it more complicated. Rose lets do some history, too. Okay. Rose here it is, paper back. Why did you call it prague winter . Because the story is basically about my choke slovak background and prague as the center of a lot of events that took place before and during the war. And the winter because obviously opposite of spring which is what people now think about prague in terms of the prague spring and the velvet revolution. But there were two very bad winter, very specifically. Kind of the winter of 3839 when the munich agreement took place and the nazis marched in to prague in march, 39. And the winter of 4748 when, in fact, the communist coup happened in february 48. And there were lots of attacks and various events that took place that in period and then so they were two pretty tough and cold times in the history of czechoslovakia. Rose and what would have made a difference . Well, i think in the first case what would have made a difference is czechoslovakia was a brand new country created in 1918 as a result of woodrow wilson, basically, and world war i and a country that was a functioning democracy. At the same time it was an ethnically mixed country. There werent just checks and slovaks but there were a lot of germans that lived in the northwest part and they in many ways were, i think, kind of propagandized by some people to think that they should be a part of the german rooik. And at the same time as we know hitler began to move out and saarland joined austria and czechoslovakia was the subject of discussion between the british and french and then with the germans and italians. And what should have happened is that it shouldnt have been sold down the river. Rose exactly. But do you also believe that if the west had listened to Winston Churchill earlier they could have stopped hitler in his tracks . I do. I think that Winston Churchill had said a number of very important parts about hitler. But the part that i finally understood better i mean, i grew up with munich as a continent was how tired the british and french were after world war i. They had lost a lot of people and Neville Chamberlain that i put into the category of among the most odious people did anything he could. And he also said why should we care about people in far away places with unpronounceable names. So this was some small country and they thought lets just give it away and see if we can kind of quench the appetite of hitler. And yet they basically gave away a country and it was the opening of world war ii. Rose we do have people here today in the United States after too long wars saying we have a lot of problems at home, we should fix those problems, first i obviously disagree with the end the conclusion of that but i do agree we have very Serious Problems at home. I happen to think as an internationalist we cant solve our problems at home unless we have an International Outlook because of the interconnectedness of our economies, competition and so for us to all of a sudden pull up the gangplanks and worry about ourselves alone i think will bring the kind of problems that we saw before. Nothing is a complete analogy, but i do think that there are some Lessons Learned from this. I do also believe that Many Americans do understand that we have a stake in what is happening in other countries. The part that i think we need to understand now is i believe in the strength of america. I think that we have a huge role to play in the world but i dont see why we have to do everything alone and so i very much agree with the approach of having partners where we can, in fact, help in other parts of the world together. That would be my shortest version of what i believe in and that i really do think while i understand the pain of people in this country i think only solution to resolving it is for us to be active internationally with others. Rose one question is whether thats what the rest of the world wants. Many people come here and say yes, in fact, when they talk to foreign leaders, they do not want the United States whether its asia or europe or the middle east or latin america to pull back from exercising an important role. I think the rest of the world wants to see the United States. We dont want to be the policemen of the world but there are intermediate aspects of this. We countries want us. I can tell you, charlie, from having sat around tables where people want to know what the United States will do and how we behave with others. Rose at the same time, many people also say they want to have confidence that the United States will do what it says it will do as well. I have to say what i find very sad now and this wont surprise you is the fact that we seem dysfunctional and that we are not fulfilling what we say we will do and i think that weakens america and certainly creates problems internationally for the rest of the world and for us. Rose its not only a question about our leadership but also about the Political Leadership . The country, isnt it . I think very much so. What troubles me a lot is that at this stage theres not a lot of confidence in any institutions. Its true in this country and its true internationally. So one of the things we started talking about the former Foreign Ministers, what we talk about is what can be done to restore confidence in a variety of international institutions, whether its the United Nations or nato or the European Union or asean or whatever, its going on everywhere. And we need to be more creative about working together. Rose let me ask. What influence did Zbigniew Brezezinski of v on you . A lot. He was my professor at columbia. In 196 when everybody was talking about the monolithic communism, we actually had a course on it was diverse communism. What were the different communist systems doing . Fascinating course. Completely brilliant man. Then he was my boss when i went to the National Security council. So hes had a big influence on me. We dont agree on everything but i think hes one of the truly remarkable thinkers. Rose who else is in that group of truly remarkable thinkers . I think do obviously Henry Kissinger is. Hes unique. Rose why is he unique . Because i think by the way he was very funny. He called me when i first became secretary of state and he said madeleine, you have taken away my one unique aspect which is being a refugee in the secretary of state. And i said no, henry, i dont have an accent. Rose laughs but i think he has a great kind of world view and he expresses it well and i think he has rose thats a different world view from brzezinski. Very different but i have enjoyed reading and talking to both of them. And i think that there are people out there there that have good interesting ideas. Rose but the world is changing very rapidly. Take the arab spring, whats happening in asia in terms of shifting paradigms of economic power in the last ten years. So do their ideas that were formed at an earlier time to the world we live in today . I think some of them do. Not all of them. I think some of the aspects doing kind of balancing interests and trying to figure out how to have winwin situations, i think those things do apply. Rose is that what you really want . Winwin . Dont you want i mean we win and you win and we find a solution . Exactly. And i think being involved in zero sum things is dangerous. Rose if we win you lose. Right. Obviously think some of us were raised in a completely different era but the bottom line is how do you balance historical knowledge with what is necessary now. Rose how do you find the principles that stand the test of time period. Absolutely. Rose with freedom and values and Democratic Values and that kinds of thing. I think that there are always these issues about whos a realist and whos an idealist which ive thought is a false die commie mainly because i never could decide what i was. I had said i was a realistic idealist or an idealist realist and you need both. Rose heres the headline. For a second term, idealistic obama returns. Well, what i believe is this, Foreign Policy is like a hot air balloon. You need the helium of ideal schismtoget it up and you need the ballast of realism to give it a direction. I thats why i think its a false dichotomy, you need both. Rose we may face sequester, what will it do to americas ab