the devil ever pulled is whatever sean spicer is saying. and just like that, poof. ( laughter ) >> it's "the late show with stephen colbert." tonight, stephen welcomes bob odenkirk. tatiana maslaney. and author george saunders. featuring jon batiste and stay human. and now, live on tape from the ed sullivan theater in new york city, it's stephen colbert! >> stephen: hey, everybody! ( cheers and applause ) good to see you. hey! ( cheers and applause ) >> stephen: hey, everybody! welcome to "the late show,"" everybody. thanks so much for being here. i am happy to be your host, stephen colbert. let's see, so much to talk about tonight. i thought the show was going to be about one thing and then the other thing happened. so i'm going to talk about the third thing i didn't expect. ( laughter ) this afternoon, we learned that trump's secretary of labor nominee and suburban dentist you meet at the swingers party, andy puzder, has withdrawn his nomination. ( cheers and applause ) just to be clear-- withdraws his nomination. just to be clear. this is not a scandal. he says he just wants to spend more time with michaels flynn. puzder-- beautiful name by the way, puzder. musical name, puzder. ♪ ♪ ( laughter ) the c.e.o. of hardee's and carl's jr., was controversial for many reasons. he had an undocumented housekeeper, made ads that famously objectified women, and called his own fast food employees the worst of the worst. that's not right. that's not right. hardee's employees are great. it's the food that's the worst of the worst. ( cheers and applause ) but. ( cheers and applause ) i gotta say-- oh! curly fries and a coke. but even with all that, republicans were still on board with puzder until a tape surfaced of puzder's wife in 1990 appearing on a talk show describing domestic abuse. that took him down. so who brought that tape to light? i mean, who's powerful enough to topple a cabinet secretary? you guessed it: opraaaaaahh! ( cheers and applause ) thank you, oprah. thank you! thank you, lady o. oprah can do anything. quick follow-up question, no particular reason, oprah-- did you ever do any shows in russia? because we could use some help. we just learned from multiple intelligence sources that trump aides were in "constant touch" with senior russian officials during the campaign. "constant touch," by the way, is also trump's secret service code name. ( laughter ) "i got constant touch on the move. constant touch is on the move. constant touch. constant touch is coming backstage. hide the girls. constant touch." now, this russian revelation obviously raises questions like "are you (bleep) kidding me?" ( laughter ) ( applause ) and what? this is russia, america's greatest foe since world war ii. i mean, worse than gluten. ( laughter ) now, intelligence sources are careful to say that they have found no evidence that trump and he russians colluded to steal the election, but... >> where there's smoke... >> there's a lot of smoke. >> there's a lot of smoke here. >> lot of smoke. >> there's a lot of smoke. >> stephen: and you know what they say, "where there's smoke, there's steve miller blowing it up trump's ass." ( cheers and applause ) we do know that trump's campaign was talking to the russians a lot, and "the frequency of the communication and the proximity to trump of those involved 'raised a red flag' with u.s. intelligence." yes, intelligence were worried that once he got in the white house, he might raise a red flag. the report also makes clear that these calls are different from the wiretapped conversations between michael flynn and russia's ambassador. it is never a good sign when you have to specify which secret power you're denying. "oh, that act of treason. tell you what? let me get back to you on that one. next question, please. anybody else? anybody? he's on the move. he's on the move. ( applause ) now, the white house vehemently denies all of this. yesterday, sean spicer was asked about russia's ties during america's daily afternoon spicey time. >> can you still say definitively that nobody on the trump campaign, not even general flynn, had any contact with the russians before the election? >> i don't have any-- there's nothing that would conclude me that anything different has changed with respect to that time period. >> stephen: yes, there is nothing that would conclude him that anything different has changed. ( laughter ) heard me that, and conclude ass out of talk he. ( applause ) , of course,, of course, huge sean spicer fans. big sean spicer fans here tonight. , of course, the president immediately took to the twitter to defend his administration saying: "this russian connection nonsense is merely an attempt to cover up the many mistakes made in hillary clinton's losing campaign." ( audience booing ). >> stephen: no, no, no, no, look. he's got a good point. because if people learn about the mistakes made in hillary's campaign, she might lose? buddy, you're the only one talking about hillary clinton. you're like that guy who's still talking about a big touchdown he made 20 years ago. by the way, hillary won the popular touchdown. ( cheers and applause ) by the way, okay, trump also called the story "fake news," then tweeted that "the real scandal here is that classified information is illegally given out by 'intelligence' like candy. very un-american!" yeah, you know how it's illegal for americans to give out candy. that's why everyone wears masks on halloween. here's the thing: it can't be both fake news and an illegal leak of classified information. "your honor, i did not murder that man. the real criminal is whoever filmed me strangling him." ( laughter ) the president also held a press conference today-- did you see this? i didn't know this was going to happen. he held a press conference today because in the middle of all this insanity, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu visited the white house. as a courtesy, trump asked his staff to put a 24-hour hold on retweeting neo-nazis. ( laughter ) that's just good manners. that's just good manners. he's a lovely host. but-- it's funny because it's necessary. ( laughter ) but he did not-- right? but he did not take the opportunity of the press conference to address any of the rumors that he's being run by the kremlin, and the two handpicked reporters he called on were polite enough not to ask whether our country is over. thank you. so far, trump and his senior advisers have not been directly implicated in any of this. the people mentioned in this report are the former michael flynn, and summertime trump campaign chair and man who keeps rope in his glove compartment, paul manafort. apparently, phone records show manafort on calls to russia, but manafort denies it saying, "this is absurd. i have no idea what this is referring to. i have never knowingly spoken to russian intelligence officers. it's not like these people wear badges that say, 'i'm a russian intelligence officer.'" well, how do you know? you were on the phone! you can't hear a badge. ( laughter ) ( applause ) paul. ( cheers and applause ) the guy on the other end could have a hammer and sickle face tattoo for all you know. but maybe manafort really didn't know that he was talking to russian intelligence officers. i mean, it's not like every russian person you talk to is a spy. i mean, some of my crew members are russian. you've never worked for the russian intelligence, right? >> nyet, nyet, stephen. i've worked many jobs. never russian intelligence. >> stephen: oh, where did you work before here? >> the trump campaign. ( laughter ) >> stephen: good for you. good for you. congratulations on the win. that must have been a surprise. you happen to have a badge that says, "i'm a russian intelligence officer, do you?" >> my badge says, "i am regular lady. >> stephen: right. well, thanks... sorry. what was your name again? >> my name? my name is katie. katie name. laugh >> stephen: katie name, everybody! thank you, katie. we've got a great show for you tonight. we'll be right back with bob odenkirk. stick around. ,,,,,,,, ♪ rock your gimsy soul. >> stephen: welcome back, everybody. welcome back. ladies and gentlemen, give it up for the band, jon batiste and stay human. ( cheers and applause ) >> jon: hey! my first guest stars as saul goodman on "better call saul," and he now stars in the movie "girlfriend's day." >> i'm thinking a whole line of i regrets. a whole new line. >> could there be a song chip in there? >> no. >> playing a sad song? >> snow song chips, no glitter, just the truth, right, because that's what cards have been missing. besides, i've heard complaints about the glitter. you know, i campaigned for a stronger glue about two years ago. >> ray, why don't you have-- >> let's go retro. could be hip. i'm thinking dime trees. girl opens the card, there are 10 dimes for her. >> in a romance card. >> could be great for someone you love who you owe money to. okay, fine, class it up-- quarters. that's your idea. >> stephen: please welcome bob odenkirk. ♪ ♪ ( applause ) >> class it up! quarters, guys! >> stephen: that's right. >> give your ladies quarters, not dimes. >> stephen: nice to see you. >> good to see you. >> stephen: people don't know this, we worked together twice before. >> yes. >> stephen: the first time was when you were on stage at second city and i was a waiter at second city. >> all right. and what did i do. >> stephen: what did you do? >> mention that we should tip our waiters, or something? >> stephen: i don't think you ever said that. >> i didn't acknowledge your existence. >> stephen: no, you did not acknowledge my existence at all. >> who was i on stage with. >> stephen: you, pasquasy-- >> great people. >> stephen: wonderful people. and then you went off to greener pastures. >> wait, we worked again together on "the daney carvey show." >> stephen: the late, lamented "daney carvey show." for people who don't know, everybody worked on that. it was you, dave cross. louie c.k., dana carvey. >> charlie kaufman great film writer. >> stephen: robert karlock, and me and correl. it was a lot of fun. >> it was an amazing group of people who coon get it together. ( laughter ). >> stephen: we kept on writing things that made us laugh and not america. >> ... because this wonderful show with this great guy, dana carvey, who is so wonderful. >> stephen: i love him. >> he came on after "home improvement" and we wrote all these weird bits. >> stephen: the very first sketch was bill clinton breast feeding puppies. >> i know. ( laughter ) and i was in the room when everyone was chort ling mightily about that, and i was thinking, "oh, no. that's not going to make them happy." >> stephen: we are so canceled. hey, you know what? i heard some exciting news about you. >> what did you hear? >> stephen: this. you threw out the first pitch. >> oh, my gosh. >> stephen: at wrigley field. and tops-- can we get a shot of this-- tops made a baseball card of you, bob odenkirk, throwing the ball out at wrigley field. ( applause ) did you not know this happened? >> i had no idea. and it's making me cry. >> stephen: how did you throw it? did you throw it well? >> i did. >> stephen: 60 feet, six inches looks way longer. >> it's so far away! i threw a moon ball. does anyone know what a moon ball is? it's a ball that goes like, that way up high and hope le-- >> stephen: maybe it's a pitch you throw without your pants on. ( laughter ). >> no. it was unintentional, but it was a moon ball, and it went over the plate, and the catcher caught it. i don't think it even bounced once. >> stephen: were there people in the stands? was is a sold-out game? >> are you kidding me? there were many, many thousands of people in the glandz did you run into my friend donnie franks, because donnie franks is a hot dog vendor there and he also. ( cheers and applause ) >> what an honor. what an honor. >> stephen: yeah, yeah. he really throws chin music. >> you're selling out hot dogs you can throw out the first pitch. >> stephen: that's what they say. so valentine's day was yesterday. >> yes. >> stephen: you and your wife of 20 years, right. >> we have been married 20 years. pretty good, right? ( applause ). >> stephen: you guys do anything-- you guys do anything particularly-- particularly-- >> i just do what i normally do on valentine's day. i get her a card tomorrow, three days later. actually, we-- i was flying here. i left town. that's what i did for her as a-- as-- ( laughter ). >> stephen: you just leave before dawn. >> that is really romantic! leave town on the morning of valentine's day. >> stephen: you know what i say-- leave them wanting more. ( laughter ) keep them hungry. you have to keep the ladies hungry, bob. >> i-- i promise we're going to have a valentine's day date, i promise. after the kids are in college, we're going to -- >> stephen: how close are we? >> one year away from the first kid going. >> stephen: wait a second, you're going to get romantic after-- >> in two years -- >> stephen: when the first child goes to college. >> we're going to do 22 valentine day dates in a row. >> stephen: the second kid is going to be there. he'll have to watch. >> we're not going to have a damn thing until both kids are in college and getting good grades. there's no roses-- actually, look, stephen -- >> stephen: so the kids are going to have to have good grades for you to get romantic? >> got it. >> stephen: you're going to have to wait until after the midterm exams, "oh, he got a b-plus. let's lose those pants." >> i'm pretty proud. my kids have never once caught my wife and i making love and they sleep in the same bed with us. ( laughter ) that's called a joke. >> stephen: that's a family joke right there. >> the truth is, i give my wife 12 roses every morning. ( laughter ) and just so she doesn't get a big head, i tell her it's one rose for each of your faults. ( laughter ) >> stephen: you are a romantic guy, then, you're kind of a romantic guy. >> i'm terrible. >> stephen: really. >> i'm not at all. >> stephen: no. >> no? >>. i consider cards and flowers-- that's just emotional porn. that's what i call it. >> stephen: you cauliflowers -- >> actual porn i call a how-to films. ( laughter ) i say, "let's go watch this how-to films." >> stephen: now you play somebody who has a little trouble with romance. >> yes. >> stephen: did you direct this, also. >> "girlfriend's day." no, michael paul stephenson. >> stephen: but you wroapt "girlfriend's day." >> i did write it with my friends. and a great important film. ( laughter ) about a greeting card writer. it's about time. ( laughter ) the truth must be told! >> stephen: what is it about, like, are are there themes-- >> it's not about anything. >> stephen: what's the plot? i'll tell you if it's got something. >> it's not going to win a peabody or anything like that. it's a silly movie. >> stephen: what happens? what happens in the movie? >> stephen, there's no message. i'm a greeting card writer. i've lost touch with my emotions. >> stephen: you're working for a big company? >> i'm working for a big company. >> stephen: is it corporate greed and loss of individual identity, anything like that? >> no, not really, no. i fall in love with a hipster chick. and -- >> stephen: like generation "y," and everything is ironic and you don't have true feelings anymore? >> no, no, no. >> stephen: it's not about that? >> no, it's not really -- >> stephen: what's the last-- what's last line? >> the last time o line of the , sometimes there's a message there. i'm on a motorcycle. i've got a dog in a side car, a one-eyed dog. >> and turn to want camera and say, "let's start killing those whales and frack this earth." you think that's a message. >> stephen: so it's about, like, man's inhumanity to man? >> it's anti-humanity is what it is. ( laughter ). >> stephen: that's what you think of odenkirk, anti-humanity. that's what it is. >> get me that peabody, please. i'm ready. >> stephen: well, i'd love to hear more about hating your fellow man. we have to take a little break. will you stick around and we'll hate ourselves a little more after that? >> yes. >> stephen: still around. we will have more bob odenkirk. ♪ ♪ ( applause ) ♪ how do you become america's best-selling brand? you make it detect what they don't. stop, stop, stop! sorry. you make it sense what's coming. watch, watch, watch! mom. relax! i'm relaxed. you make it for 16-year olds... whoa-whoa-whoa!!! and the parents who worry about them. you saw him, right? going further to help make drivers, better drivers. don't freak out on me. that's ford. and that's how you become america's best-selling brand. remember 2007? smartphones? o m g ten years later, nothing's really changed. it's time to snap out of it. hello moto. snap on a jbl speaker. put a 70" screen on a wall. get a 10x optical zoom. get excited world. hello moto. moto is here. the moto z with moto mods. get a moto z play droid for only $5/mo. no trade-in required. hambone! sally! 22! hut hut! tiki barber running a barber shop? yes!!! surprising. yes!!! what's not surprising? how much money david saved by switching to geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. who's next? ( applause ) >> stephen: welcome back, everybody. we're here with our friend bob odenkirk. so bob you're a busy guy. you have "better call saul." you obviously have the movie "girlfriend's day." what else have you got cooking. >> funny you should ask. i do have another big project that i'm really excited about and i think you will be, too. >> stephen: whale rale? what is it? it's a new film and it's called "the late show: the movie." i play stephen colbert! >> stephen: you're playing me in a movie? why was i not asked to audition? >> i'm sorry. i guess they just wanted a stephen colbert type, and i was the first one who came to mind. but don't worry. i studied you closely, and i think i nailed it. i believe we have a clip. jim? >> all right, everyone! shut up! sit down! i'm stephen colbert! all right. what's in the news today? i don't know. did everyone hear about iran secretly testing nuclear missiles? who cares? hilarious. whew! when we return, i'll be over there. talking about zika. so, cheer for jon batiste, stay human. clap, you pigs! >> stephen: what-- what was that? hold on. ( applause ) no, no, wairkt don't, please. >> pretty good. >> stephen: what the hell was that? >> i know what you're going to ask, and, yes i was a pit of a praingster on set. >> stephen: i was not going to ask that. i was not going to ask that. did you even watch this show? that was just angry and cruel. we-- we do jokes, man. >> but, stephen, it's never easy to see yourself portrayed. ( laughter ). >> stephen: but you weren't portraying me. that's not me. it's terrible. it's terrible. >> if you think it's so terrible, why did you agree to make a cameo in it? >> stephen: oh, shoot. i totally forgot-- i play you, bob odenkirk, in "late show: the movie!" i think we have a clip. jim? >> jim. >> all right, we're back with the actor bob odenkirk. >> great to be here, steve. you know, i-- people know me as a comedian, but i also do drama. and i am doing a movie called "girlfriend's day." >> all right, look, this celebrity chitchat bores me. can we talk about something more serious like, what do you think it feels like after you're dead? ( laughter ). >> well, i was talking about this with jeremy piven the other day, and piven said, "don't you play stephen colbert in the movie 'late show: the movie'?" i said, i do, let's show the clip. >> shut up. shut it. i'm stephen colbert. black here. ed this bob odenkirk. tell us about the movie. >> i'm bob odenkirk. >> stephen: yeah. that's enough of that. all right, babies are ugly. jimmy, roll the clip. ( applause ) >> stephen: that's incredible, incredible. okay, bob, that movie is interesting. i take it back. whew! wait, are we done now? was that the last clip? are we-- are we-- are we still in the clip right now? >> i don't know. i don't-- i don't think so. >> stephen: you don't think so? it's kind of important. how can we figure out this is real. >> there is one way. i could, you know, stab your hand, and then if it hurts, well, then it's the real world. if it doesn't hurt, it's just a special effect. we're still in a clip then. >> stephen: will that work? >> i think so, let's try it. >> stephen: aarrgghh! >> got it, stephen colbert, you're on "clebt hand stab." >> you got clebt hand stab." >> stephen: bob, wonderful to have you. 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( band playing ) ( cheers and applause ) >> stephen: welcome back, everybody. folks, my next guest won an emmy for playing multiple characters on "orphan black." she now stars in "the other half." >> where do i know you from? >> i saw you at the club the other night? >> no. that's not it. >> this is our favorite restaurant. you probably just saw me here before. >> no, that's not it, either. >> where's your girlfriend? >> what? >> your girlfriend, the one you were dancing with. >> oh, she's not my girlfriend. >> does she know that? >> yeah. what about you, you got a boyfriend? >boyfriend. >> stephen: please welcome tatiana maslany. ( applause ) ♪ ♪ >> stephen: nice to see you again. >> thanks for having me back. >> stephen: the last time you were here, you had not yet won your first emmy. >> no. >> stephen: but you won for, congratulations. what was that? what was that? was this your first time nominated? >> second nomination. >> stephen: second nomination, first win. >> yes. >> stephen: since you didn't win the first time, did you think you were going to win second time? >> never north remotely. like, i hadn't planned anything. we were-- it was the morning of the emmys, and my boyfriend was like, "you should write something." and i was like, "no, no, there's no way." >> stephen: you'll jinx it? >> no, there's no way i will need to read something out loud at that event. i'm not going to win. so i, like, wrote something on my phone and was like, "there. you happy? and then they called me up, and it was on my phone, and not on a piece of paper, and so i was getting these text messages that had to keep, like, closing -- >> stephen: everyone was congratulating you? >> they were like, "good job! we're watching you right now." i'm like, "shut up! stop!" i couldn't remember my passcode and it was the worst. it was terrible. >> stephen: so what did you do with your emmy? where is it living now? do you have it on a shelf or something? >> no, my parents came to visit me recently and they kind of, like, fix my life when they come over, so they've got all these plants, and the emmy was in a box, and my mom didn't know it was the emmy, and so she has a plant beautifully presented on top of the emmy with the box. >> stephen: yeah, it comes in a nice blue box. >> yeah, exactly. it's, like, supporting life. so it's a worthy thing to do. >> stephen: are you ever going to take it out and fut up? no, you're not going to put it up? >> i don't know. >> stephen: why? >> because i feel weird about it. i don't know. i don't feel like i'll be like, "yes, i deserve this. everyone look at this." >> stephen: but do you! >> no! ( laughter ). >> stephen: well, i think you do. >> thank you. >> stephen: you do such an amazing job on "orphan black." and you play so many different characters. i understand-- we talked about this last time-- you have an acting double. >> yeah. >> stephen: so you get to perform-- because your characters have to perform with themselves. you have an acting double who actually plays you. what's her name. >> katherine alexanderry. she does what no actor does, which is be entirely selfless and give over everything. the better she is, the less she's seen on camera. do you know what i mean? because she's doing all the scenes with me, but then they remove her and put me in there. so shes does does all this work -- >> stephen: she should get a emmy? >> she definitely deserves the emmy. >> stephen: the new movie "the other half," i understand that-- is that your actual boyfriend? >> it is. >> stephen: doing that scene with you? >> yup. tom cullen. >> stephen: what is it like to work with your actual loved one in ray scene where you're being a loved one? >> it's-- it's bizarre. and i was terrified to do it, because i was like, "he's going to know all my tricks. >> stephen: like what tricks? >> you know, you have an understanding with your partner. you know when you're lying. you know when you're making something up. q. right.>> so it was great. it was like a real means of going deeper and being really honest. >> stephen: what did you talk about at the end of the day? "i was acting with this jerk today." >> "this guy kept calling me on my crap." >> stephen: how do you let off steam when you get home and the person you are working with the person you are living with? >> we were so excited. we were thrilled to get to do the film together because we love each other as actors and to get to do this tiny movie we cared about so much for zero money. that's why you do it. >> stephen: well, you do so many characters on "orphan black." do people ever come up to you and say, "i love you as..." and they name a character. and you go who is that? >> "didn't that person die?" >> stephen: they can't come up-- how many character dowz play now? >> like, upwards of 10. 10. and more. they call me like the orphan girl or you're "orphan black." like i had this weird interwaks a woman in, like, an all-women's naked spa. and we were like -- >> stephen: hold on. ( laughter ). >> yeah. let me set-- let me set the scene. we're all naik gld all naked in a spa spa. >> we're all in a cold plunge. >> stephen: a cold plunge. >> which is like freezing polar water that you have to sit in for a minute. >> stephen: why do you have to? >> exactly. circulation? i don't know. masochism. >> stephen: are you hot first. >> you go into the sauna then a cold plunge. >> stephen: is this an eastern european thing? >> this girl, katie name, told me. >> stephen: katie name. she was over there. >> i was freezing and holding my body. and she was like, "are you that orphan girl?" i was like, "oh, yes, yes, i am. she was like, "i heard that show is really weird." and i was like, "yeah." and she was like, "i haven't seen it." and i was like, "oh, that's fine, no worries." look covering myil shriveling body parts. it was horrible. >> stephen: you must be used to the cold plunge because you're canadian, right? >> yes. >> stephen: can i commend your prime minister on something? have you seen this photograph right here? >> yeah. >> stephen: it's getting a lot of attention. our president is known for grabbing people in a handshake and pulling them off balance. >> the yank. >> stephen: and your prime minister executed a sprp yesterday, by, super power yesterday. look at that jaw! >> yeah, the like -- >> stephen: it's a resolute jaw. >> toablghtly. >> stephen: i didn't know you guys were so tough. >> i think he did his home work. he watched the videos of those two other handshakes and he was like, "i am not going to go that way. that is not going to happen to me." he, like, braced himself. >> stephen: thank you. >> you're welcome. >> stephen: it's a lesson for all of us. >> yes. maybe all brace ourselves. >> stephen: because you know, constant touch is the code name. ( laughter ) ( applause ) it was lovely seeing you again. >> thank you so much. >> stephen: congratulations on the emmy again. >> thank you. ( cheers and applause ). >> stephen: "the other half" is in theaters on march 10. tatiana maslany, everybody. we'll be right back. with george saunders. stick around. it's an important question you ask, but one i think with a simple answer. we have this need to peek over our neighbor's fence. and once we do, we see wonder waiting. every step you take, narrows the influence of narrow minds. bridges continents and brings this world one step closer. so, the question you asked me. what is the key? it's you. everything in one place, so you can travel the world better. with the deduction findingombine superpower of ibm watson? ah! you get more money. that's what you could get. h&r block with watson. get your taxes won. ♪ ,,,,,,,, ♪ ♪ don't pay hundreds more for taxes and fees on your wireless bill. introducing t-mobile one. now with taxes and fees included. get 4 lines of unlimited lte data for 40 bucks each. all unlimited. all in! switch to t-mobile today. ♪ hashtag crispety, hashtag peanut buttery. hashtag stop posting about it and eat it already. butterfinger. hashtag stuffy nose. hashtag no sleep. hashtag mouthbreather. just put on a breathe right strip. it instantly opens your nose up to 38% more than cold medicine alone. shut your mouth and say goodnight mouthbreathers. breathe right. everybody. my next guest is a macarthur genius fellow, and quite possibly my favorite living author. please welcome george saunders! ♪ ♪ ( applause ) >> stephen: nice to see you again. >> you said "quite possibly." >> stephen: "quite possibly." i have to check with my other living authors right now. i might have them on at another time when you have to say the same introduction for them. >> that's fine gli can't be painted into a corner, george. some people might know you from "the tenth of december." you're known for your short stories. and this is your first novel. it is calls "lincoln in the bardo." why write a novel? i've always been told by people who are professional writers, the short story is sort of the hardest thing you can write. >> it's really hard. the last time i was here we talked about, "i don't ever need to write a novel. i'm a purist. i'm above it." >> stephen: you didn't seem that smug at the time. >> in here. >> i heard a story about lincoln, his son passed away, and he went into the crypt to hold the body-- i heard this story about 20 years ago. and i was so moved by it, and i thought, "no way. too hard. too earnest and too sort of sentimental." and about four years ago i was like, "you know. i want to write this thing so bad." and i don't want to be the guy whose grave said, he never did the thing he really wanted to do." and i decide to give myself a three-month pass gr you wrote this in three months. >> no i gave myself three months to write the first two page s. >> stephen: what was like-- how did your process change going from short story to novel? did you have to adjust the margins or anything like that? you seem to be padding up on the the pages just a little bit here. ( laughter ) i just want to point out. there's a lot of empty spaces. ( laughter ) ( applause ) a lot of empty pages. >> goes to the ones with more text on it. in an earlier edition, had a 60-point font. >> stephen: what is the bardo? >> it's a tibetan word. in this book it means the space between what happens between the time you die and what happens next, maybe reincarnation. and there's a cool but terrifying idea that your mind when you're alive is kind of dampened by your body. so you might be neurotic and crazy but when you're alive there's a damping on it. the teach teachings say it's a d horse -- >> stephen: your mind is a wild horse. >> but when you die the tether that ties it to the pole is cut and your mind gets super sized. so whatever neurosises or regrets, they go 10,000 times. which is a little scary. whatever religious system you thought, if you're a catholic you see catholic visions. >> stephen: if i cut the tether, heaven forbid, if i cut the tether between your mind and your body right now, where would the wild horse of your mind go? what would be the obsession? what would be the-- >> i don't know. i think we don't know. that's the thing. part of any spiritual tradition is you're trying to train your mind so when it goes, it goes to happy things. whatever you filled your mind with during your life -- >> stephen: is bardo like purgatory. i was raised in the catholic tradition. >> me, too. >> stephen: you were? >> yes. it's a little more workable. my understanding of purgatory is like detention. >> stephen: after life is over, before you go on to heaven, you have to-- there's a period of time where there might be punishment, but you know it's going to be over at some point. >> right. >> stephen: and then you go on to heaven. >> you sit on a hard church pew until the end of days. >> stephen: but you know it's going to be over at some point. >> i kind of morphed the real bardo for my own purposes, but in this book, the idea is if you had any regrets or any kinds of problems, you gotta kind of work through tor you're going to be in that zone forever. there's a gospel thing, if you bring forth that which is within you, it will save you. if you fail to bring it forth, it will destroy you. first of all, they don't know they're dead. and they haven't quite figured out what it was that is keeping them there. it's a buzzkill. it's a kind of real depressing book. ( laughter ). >> stephen: it is heartbreak. i will say that. why are you trying to shatter my heart on every page here? because-- >> because i love you. because i love you. >> stephen: well, you are mist ear we have talked about radical tenderness, which is a term i really love, radical tenderness. and the world is a tough place to be tender in. >> it is. >> stephen: because tenderness is seen as weakness and you can be hurt for being tender or dismissed for being tender. we have a president right now who is-- >> we do? >> stephen: yes. ( laughter ) technically, we do. ( cheers and applause ) and in your-- in your commencement essay-- congratulations by its way-- you talk about the need for kindness. you're only regret is not being kind. are we being kind enough, however unkind trump might seem in his nature, are we being kind enough to donald trump? >> uh... ( laughter ) no, this is something i hear a lot of people, progressive people saying. should we be empathetic, or should we be firm? and my thing is, yeah. you know. empathy is a really-- it's like a superpower. very robust if you do it. if you have somebody over here, say a trump supporter, who is believing in certain things that cause great harm to, say, some mexican family over here, immigrant family. what's the greatest kindness you could do for that guy? you could persuade him. and i think by sort of trying to occupy their mind space, you could be really powerful. i don't think it's an either-or. you could be really, really loving and firm and compassionate and have a sense of humor and be forgiving, and you could be firm as hell and not take any crap and protect the people whose vulnerability is making them in a really terribly scared place right now ( applause ). >> stephen: you have to be empathetic to them, too. >> of course. there's that kind of-- there's that kind of liberal notion that empathy means, like, you know, you kind of... like ta. you know, that kind of look. and somebody drives a spike through your head, and you're like, "thank you for the coat rack." you know that thing. >> stephen: no, i don't know that thing. >> we'll talk. actually, if you were going to try to persuade, some try to love them and to really understand them is vastly powerful, i think. >> stephen: and vastly hard. >> yeah, yeah. >> stephen: thank you for trying. >> and you, too. >> stephen: lovely to see you. >> appreciate it. >> the book is "lincoln in the bardo." the man is george saunders. everybody. we'll be be right back. ♪ ♪ ( applause ) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ the hydrogen fueled mirai. its only emission is water. toyota. let's go places. >> stephen: that's it for "the late show, everybody." tune in tomorrow when my guests will be sally field, maggie siff and musical guest, lady antebellum. now stick around for james corden and his guests zach galifianakis, lena dunham, and laura dern. good night, everybody. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ♪ are you ready y'all to have some fun ♪ feel the love tonight don't you worry 'bout ♪ where you come from it's gonna be all right ♪ it's the late, late show ♪ ladies and gentlemen. ♪ all the