Come to sophie collision . Or is me, sophie shall not say, ang, times of trouble way turned to art for comfort or return to literature for wisdom. Home, i guess, todays the worlds literature, demi urge, master storyteller and noble prize winner, or hunt palmer or hunt by milk novelist recipient only a 2006 noble prize and literature. Its really great to have you with us once again. 12 years later, great pleasure height. I am also very happy to address my direction reader. So i just got my copy out basically 2 days ago, and im like, deep into this book. Most of the russian readers are gonna get it this week. So its like a huge thing. Lets dive right into this. Okay. Latest novel that came out in russia, knights of plague. It is about a plague outbreak on a fictional, ottoman island. And, you know, using sang and interviews that you pondered on this novel for 40 years new to, for years to write it. No pandemic was inside back then. And if you chose this topic for your book and you sort of take the bulls eye with it, isnt a coincidence or did you see no incidence . But i am in my mind, is busy with the subject of play for the last 40 years. In my earlier books in silent house, there is a historian whos researching it historical, ottoman, played on in my castle, they shorter book and other historical. Now that are the scenes of plague in a stumble, ive been thinking about a plague for 40 years because it, at the beginning i thought this is such an opportunity to talk about that. And then i change my mind. It wasnt a po for another 20 years. What was a report to think about, to write about to explore them that western perception of my part of the world or young list that they use. The visitors to stumble in 165717 century would drive about the turks or all to missouri muslims, as fatalist and people who dont care about going to not would only believe in god. And since our faith is written over our heads, if they dont do anything, they do not run away from blake. But later in the last 10 years, i thought that the subject all in positions of current, you know, people say, no, i dont want to do it. I dont want to do it. I dont want to go in. I dont, you know, and that political conclusions, political consequences or resistance to guarantee that this is the subject of night thought play that is just published in russia. I choose that subject at ease. Of course, coincidence. I was writing this novel for the last 5 years. Suddenly in the 4th year, there was this immense and other panoramic. There are differences though, that it was played, kills one in tree, one in tree dimes, in 1655 long milan stumble, plagues one and 3 die while as be all no quarter, no wires kills one in the 100 and even less it now. So youre saying it was a can to the what a coincidence, you know what they say, the smart people, that even the things weve seen, we havent planned, weve planned it somewhere somewhere in our past, in our, in our unconscious. So you wrote it for 4 years now. We had time to observe it in full swing and im sure you have your observations. Some people say, you know, people became kinder and when became more empathic, im there say, oh, i got no we, we didnt learn anything like this. Condemn it. Didnt change is a bit. It changed me a great. What about you . Do you think i can teach the same thing or humanity is hopeless . Well, of course we are changed when we faced an earthquake, a war, or to pandemic him. We definitely che, i dont think hes not. Human beings have 11 strong character. I thing of the, our characters continuously change. I am a writer. I also teach writing than the 1st thing i teach the students when theyre writing fiction, a your character at the beginning of the novel. It has and character a and at the end of the novel, it she should or she has have a character b and the event writing and all is organizing the events or the story in such a way that the character changes. The girl grows up, the boy was the war and soul sees how horrible life is. And when youre faced with plague, our lesser with wires, you are scare you low saudi diety. You learn criticized the government, but you also need the governments help, so forth. And so on. Theres so much of learning education when faced with an earthquake, i have also leave earth. You also see that fragility of human life. Bear dear. Like instincts that we can deny it any more. You also learn about solidarity making, making groups respecting others rights for yours or to be video, go stickle, you just save on on your own life. There are many, many reactions. I can say that we can be human beings have always the same responses. We also change, but single human beings, when faced with a catastrophe, like corner wires or even deeper play, of course we are to chain. We learn 1st of all, the learn how Beautiful Life is, how beautiful it is to be alive. That is it. Thats why i wanted to write a novel about plague because death teaches us the beauties of life. I am not always a negative writer. I also care about like tosto, like no buckle picking up beautiful details about life and making and making my novel, beautiful, believable, con wincy. Absolutely. If i may add from my humble opinion, your nose in many senses are also lot celebrating life. Yeah. So if we look at the larger scale of things, not how it changed us individually because of course it changed me, changed you because this, you know, 32 years is a big period of time for one persons life. But do you think are in a virus is gonna really change the course of things on a larger scale because you have so many like powers of pass plagues in your book. But if you will look at it now, 100 years later, we havent really changed. I mean, humans are fighting the worst that were fighting before with planning for a test and brad with planning for oil resources. Lemme last d releasing koran. Theres been a change things in the large scale relo. If the s corps and ive been a change in human character a bit when you face it. And unfortunately, what i seen from other books, other studies i read so much or to write this novel that things change to verse when there is such an image, im talking about epidemic off earth. Why . Because human beings and history also showed us in the 1st reactions are always the same. The government denies it than that i rumors. And then people do the lies that they dont want to die. They want to run away. Or they want to get organized almost for when new governments and evac my novel is about making of a new state. It is a sort of a reaction for plague mike, the plague that i described in my novel is the plague of 1897. That started in some say in hong kong and spread to all asia. Most interesting thing. Some 20000000 people were killed in asia, but very few people in west that was one of the reasons that attract could me to this subject. Why were asians were dying like its like birds and why Nothing Happened in best . Of course, the answer is very simple. Because they were respecting a bit to learn restrictions of kind of tina and the western governments were more determined to impose until in the end they organize human reaction to them. It be they mix with that. Its called era a red or its yellow fever, whether it, whether its play or corner know why this is always the same, but each concrete situation a different part in this or that way home. Its really interesting because this correlation of state and people and how they interact during pandemic is also the most interesting thing to encourage virus. Weve seen that, you know, many governments where just at last not because theyre bad governments, they just didnt know how to react. You know, its the 1st time they so you kind of thing i see yes. And then people will have to pull themselves to sort of stand for themselves and its the 3rd year now and theres this fatigue and its still not ending. What do you think as a big visionary, that person needs not a state, but a person needs in himself to pull through this pandemic to get to the end. Ok, then i can give you what if your government is bad and is not taking is not imposing quite a strongly if your government cares as populous. Thick policies saw that business is not shot, then save your own life, be an egg voice. But if youre organized and the government is taking the necessary, require im time restrictions then follow them. That is not one single solution. But one thing i have learned from reading and thinking for many years or 2 years about this subject is humanity always wants the impossible they 1st day say to the government, please public you government b. They say to mil to any asleep on, please dont touch my my private life, dont touch my business, dont touch my freedom. And this is an impossible contradiction. And all the media, all the newspapers are him, make a generating interest because of this contradiction. Theres a government is not going enough, are done with this closing business where you can do it simultaneously. You asked to close the business. You have to list click freedoms. But once you begin to restrict freedoms, then a sort of an auto detection undemocratic totalitarian government begins to grow up. So these are my subjects in a way in might so plate, mr. Pam. Okay, were going to take a short break right now while were back. Well continue talking to the best selling writer Nobel Prize Winner of hunt by moke. You know, want to mr. Stay with us. For bieber over ukraine continues unabated with the u. S. And you, kate taking the lead. However, not only for members on board, even ukraine is attempting to dampen expectations of an Armed Conflict with russia. Will washington in london get their way . You are chatting with them from dosher regime can hi sharon, this is rob with she been closed on well, i mean kelly recording court and i renewed my for my kids shows that thousands of london kids to unload anatomy for she gave us times to get a fax number, you know, if that with yak here to get approved for human receiving him up a thank ah and were back with noble prize winner hunt by mac. Mister pembroke. We know during any plate because fate pretty much is like a war. Like coronel virus is like invisible 3rd world war, right . Ah, all aspects of human nature, common surface, bad and good in your observations. And we can parallel your book as well. What are the aspects of a human nature that this pandemic has brought on surface . Of course, again, that when we are face the dead disaster, if pyar do you want to say go or your own life, or do you want to say the life of your neighbors that am an earthquake . Do you want to save yourself or your family . And when and play comes and you have it, you have to run away from your family, but people dont do it. It is. That is why i, for 40 years, i wanted to write this novel because it shows the tragic situation of humanity between helping others and say, enjoying a good life or saving your life. Sometimes a voice survive, sometimes when people is survive. So there is not much meaning in this kind of about gender generalization in this kind of situation. Of course, i believe in saudi that in understanding the job, my ethical way aim is to teach my readers 1st enjoy the novel enjoy. How would i hope that suffering of the people in a way in a historical enjoy the details of imposition of garden tina during the last years of Ottoman Empire when in fact, russian saw coal Ottoman Empire, the sick people of a sick person of europe. This is what they teach us, even in Turkish High School books, because turkish Republic High School books looked down upon the Ottoman Empire and called, took the russian. So saying that all the ones were to seek people of 2 were smoked by color by quality. Please listen to the great end. This novel is indiana, also a political novel about the disintegration of Ottoman Empire. The today, turks are very proud to have the ultimate empire. I just want us to, to be mind them that look the empire, if you were ronald disintegrated in such a sad way. Its a story of decline and all 2 months over rule old bo county, middle east, theyre about we 2, they called grady or whatever middle east that they lost. You know, how did it happen . How did they these guys who were running, damn, what did they think of all this . These are also this side subjects. The other subjects, the rise of nationalism at the end of an empire. When the empire is collapsing, everyone is saying, well actually im not at all. Come on, i am this, im sorry to be an i am bulgarian. I am greek. I am a syrian, i am ada, and auto ones lost all this hub in a way my, my sentiments are close to or 2 months here. You know, i live in the stumble. My family lived in a summer. How did it feed . And im against putting on ottoman system on a pedestal. I just wanted to see clearly, and i am critical of auto moneys in are getting from the government from air go on. I believe turkey should be secular and look for its future in europe. It rings the bell and it hits home when you say about the Ottoman Empire because a lot of people. Busy in the past, so the, it territory is still the same about the, the, the collapse of the soviet union. I mean, they wanted to collapse, they wanted to does integrate and now that its gone and there is a sense of, oh, we lost somebody. Yeah. Maybe it wasnt that bad after all, and you brought out by saying that, you know, i know little is about enjoying but enjoying other peoples pain. But what i found remarkable and also a lot of parallels with whats going on. Reading your novel, is it how pain and suffering it exists with regular life . Its crazy, right . I mean theres a plague. Its raging. The sitting people are dying with possibly la, full. Elijahs goes on and nothing is happening. And it same here. Jane corner virus, i mean people are dying. I have seen before noticing that yes, that, that your, your neighbor can be dying will be suffering. And but you think if i want to be a good person, why dont i only save my family . I like my children and my wife so much that i dont care or. And one thing if we compare the previous funding mix, whether its play quota or play that at all times, even before the beginning of 20th century humanity was not educated, is that is it is now. Now, not only it, lets say, in turkey at that time, only 5 percent on the wanting 20 knew how to read and write and would never understand what the micro while today. People understand also people look at the map and sir, and dont understand used to log on. Was that anything while we are educated, we see on every night a t v. Whats happening in the world and that is relatively speaking. Thats why we are scared in a more exaggerated way. Why do you think people so many times choose to stay ignorant with here . What we dont understand and certainly is one of the most difficult tests for human, human psychic, get in knights of plague. We see people who are ignorant of this disease and they suffer of that. But on the other hand, they oppose knowledge in every possible way and prefer to stay ignorant. And thats a paradox because i see so much of that today as well. Yes, thats today sick this some, some quotes, for example, trump and abuse dismissal for may show that these are the problems of twitter. Facebook and old is popular or media that there is a lot of safety information. If you ask me there for me, rem as it my ethical question is, i have to ask this question. If i think that i know it, right, i should ask this question at both as a novelist and as a person, why do they choose to believe in lines . What makes them, what forces them to believe in lie . Well, wow, theres so many reasons you know. I also teach at Columbia University york say a conservative family sense, hes fun to columbia. And all the professors are liberals leftist and they teach theres oh and then he found comes back and he says, then the wants, does education to change and things. This is because of democrats all these idiots. So in the end, if this guy is not been educated, wants to be what we call false information, want balls to walk for trump. The my professor friends at columbia all hates trump. Ok, but then yes, i also dont like trump, but why do people walk for here . This never answer, half of the country. What do you think . The fact that people are much more informed now rather than 100 years ago during that plague make us stronger or does it make us more vulnerable . It makes us stronger, not, not less vulnerable in physically, but it makes us wall notable spiritually because we see people die. We see photographs of huge cemetery burning bodies in india. Trucks are passing in from italy. When we see these things, we are scared. This is too much information perhaps, or we are happy. Theres information. And then i think this is the main important sentiment that i like about if you were to create a museum of this pandemic, what would it look like . Well, the inside, i am a strange guy in a way. Im keeping the old used mask. Im sure this will pass, and i will tell showed people, hey, these are that you know, this happen. Dont forget all the epidemic. Deadly epidemics in human history. In the end, as their way dis, will also pass it. Im sure about that, but, but it stays it over to the stayed longer than we expected. The stumble playbook 6 is 1655. 00 took 2 years, 2 summers the longer the same. So it, they always takes longer than we wish. God, please stop it if it stops but more longer after a more time, more people died than we expect. But in the end it passes away, then it vanishes. No one wants to remember, except those who kept their masks a talk about museums in your museum of innocence. You have to start that. You know, were really only capable of feeling how happy we were pondering about the past. But we were never happy in the moment. 2 questions here and answer them as you wish. Why is that . So does it mean that were only capable to be happy in our memories and are in the present life . And do you think one still pandemic passes . We can look back and, you know, maybe thing that actually was a happy time. Somewhat scary. I dont think we will do that. I dont see humanity will go back to me and said that it was a beautiful time. Maybe that was a beautiful time for people who are indoors and who said, wow, i always wanted to read my book to this book that book now i am with home and being paid by the government and doing nothing and reading books. Thats great. Maybe there are people like that, but youre saying about it, not that humanities, capacity not to live in this moment. In fact, you are echoing what and kick adar diminished philosopher once said to him. Unhappy person was the person who either lived in the past or in the future cannot enjoy present. We are talking up making generalizations about humanity. I went and explore this subject a lot in knights of play. Some of my characters cannot, can they dream . They think they want to exclaim, some of them enjoy moments of b, even in the times of horrible deadly panoramic. We cannot generalize, but he is who if you ask me, i am also a not very happy person. I either in the past or right historical mark or think about the future. But