The german chancellor xfone tapped for over a decade. The german chancellors phone tapped for over a decade. Intelligence services answer to the white house. We will talk about it in the debate. We will also be checking in and the media fallout of all this. The hour begins in the newsroom. We look at reforming the patriot act. The white house reacts to the latest planes. France and the netherlands, bringing down trees that caused power cuts and transport chaos. And an unexplained car crash in beijings tnm kinnamans kinnaman square. It was spains turn to summon the ambassador on allegations that the u. S. Collected data on telephone calls from spain. This is based on documents provided by Edward Snowden. Arriving for an uncomfortable meeting, the u. S. Ambassador in major it has questions to answer after a spanish newspaper published elite documents showing u. S. Intelligence services tracked more than 60 million phone calls made in spain between december and january of this year. A massive 3. 5 million calls in one day. They say the monitoring appears to track where the calls were made and how long they lasted, but not their content. The Spanish Government has demanded full details about what information was collected from their citizens. As always, we learn about what is going on after it has happened. That is how it is with american intelligence. They are always ahead of us. It is a disgrace they are spying on governments and ministers. We will see what happens, but to me, this is a very serious violation. It comes after the prime rejected calls for an eu wide nospying agreement. They wanted more information before supporting the special arrangement with the United States. He white house has denied that president obama was aware that chancellor on the low merkel was being tapped. Angela merkel was being tapped. They discussed the surveillance rogue rams programs. They warned of lasting damage to the transatlantic relationship. Over the weekend, the white house was quiet, not commenting on the spy scandal. Press secretary jay carney said that there may need to be additional constraints placed on americas spy agencies. There are a number of efforts underway designed to increase transparency, work with congress to look at reforms of the patriot act. To look at ways that we can increase oversight, increase constraints on the authorities provided by these programs. Separately, there is a review underway that will look at, among other issues, some of the very specific things in regards to the intelligence gathering. Including matters that deal with heads of state and other governments. Joining me from washington is our correspondent. President obama is under pressure and letting his press secretary do the talking for him. What else to jay carney have to say . These were carefully worded statements from mr. Carney. They say they do not and they will not monitor communications, but no mention of Previous Communications in the past. And striking a careful balance as well. They say they do extraordinary work protecting americans at home and abroad. They say mr. Obama should be bucking up the Intelligence Services and defending them rather than weakening them or apologizing. When it came to criticism, this ongoing review of the work was announced earlier in the summer. The latest safeguards in place for americans and others. It shows that the u. S. Is at least acknowledgin it is not just an american issue. It is now wider in effect, people in europe as well. That work is ongoing and it will be finished by the end of the year. Thank you very much, reporting from washington. It has brought down trees in the north with winds of over 130 kilometers an hour. One woman was killed. Worst affected was the u. K. The storm forcing the cancellation of schools at heathrow. Many homes were left without power. In the camden neighborhood, just like other parts of the capital, some roads have been cut off after a fierce storm battle to southern england. They have dubbed the storm saint jude for the patron saint of lost causes. Those that camp despite warnings spent a rough night. I am not scared of the elements, but that really did get me going. On the other side of the channel, tourists found themselves stranded. We are making the most of it and using the time to change the oil. They struggled at times to reach their destination. It was even worse the previous night. We thought it was going to die we were going to die because it is so rocky and crazy, the storm. Like any other countries on the ground, rescue forces have been working hard to help those injured five flying debris and falling trees. Penn State University says it is paying close to 60 million to 26 young man over claims of child sexual abuse at the hands of former assistant football coach jerry sandusky. This after negotiations lasting about a year. 23 deals have been signed and it faces six other claims. Sandusky continues to maintain his innocence. 35 migrants being smuggled to algeria died of thirst and dehydration in the Sahara Desert after the truck broke down. That is according to the mayor. It happened two weeks ago and the news emerged after the survivors managed to make it out of the desert. 60 people were traveling into trucks when one of them broke down about 50 kilometers north. In china, a probe is being launched after a vehicle crashed killing five people. Three in the car and two bystanders. It is generally kept under tight security. A plume of black smoke rises from the square. Police have blocked access to the site, one of the best guard in the country with key buildings and institutions nearby. The security lockdown has begun. Your for bidden to film. You cant go there. A car crashed into the crowded front of the main entrance of the for bidden city and caught fire. Several people were killed and dozens injured, including foreign tourists. Two reporters approached the sights and were temporarily detained. With images deleted from their digital equipment, pictures of the flaming wreck were posted on the internet only to be deleted within minutes. Authorities seemed reluctant to communicate on the incident. I dont know the incident. I need to learn the specifics of it. If they were involved in any kind of case, they would manage it appropriately. May speculate on the reasons behind the car crashed. Others speak of a possible car bomb that exploded in a restricted area. Tiananmen square is a symbol of communist china where those have staged protests in the past. It was the scene of violent repression of students that were taken to the streets. In 2001, members of her religious cult set themselves on fire there. Security forces are constantly deployed on tiananmen square. That is it from the newsroom for now. Time to cross for the debate. To say the secret is out is putting it mildly. It washington facing a flurry of revelations about its most secretive spy agency. We have heard about Angela Merkels phone being tapped. Spying on 34 other nations. 7 million conversations recorded in france. 60 million telephone calls in spain. All the work of the nsa. Former nsa contractor Edward Snowden uncovered it. It the steady drip of revelations about the u. S. s eavesdropping agency is a full blown gusher. Spying isnt new, but cell phoes and computers are. Can rules be agreed upon and binding e they have final say. The 52 billion u. S. Intelligence. The white house denies an allegation that barack obama was personally briefed in 2010 about spying on the germans. Will it wash . Is the nsa out of control . A retired cia officer. Joining us here is our guest, all about protecting companies. A lawyer specializing in intellectual property, information technology, the list runs long. And from the Research Center on intelligence. Thank you for joining the conversation. Many of you have been joining the conversation. I want to start with the latest. Not washington, berlin, or madrid, but london. Unless the newspapers begin to behave more responsibly, his government is likely to act to stop papers from publishing what he calls damaging leaks by Edward Snowden. What do you think of that . David cameron calling on the government to stop he told parliament this monday that unless they begin to be newspapers begin to behave more responsibly, he has called on legislation to stop them from publishing. It is the classic debate of the right of the public to know what is happening and to be sure that their rights are enforced. The interests of states to protect national security. The revelations seen this summer, the extent of this find is necessary strictly to protect the interests of national security. Ordinary citizens are having their personal data online collected in this dragnet. Do you agree with David Cameron that newspapers like the guardian have gone too far . Totally. This is not only illegal under u. S. Law, but also immoral and totally undemocratic. The use of it is under question today, whether it was useful at all. The end result is negative. Newspapers like the guardian should be prosecuted, or the nsa in the wrong . The nsa is totally in the wrong, acting illegally under u. S. Law, acting immorally under the International Way of doing things, and in a totally undemocratic fashion. It is following the lead of the nsa, why it is taking such a big political risk. I am rather skeptical that president obama says he did not know of such actions. This would have been done under the directions of that time. I did not know there was a standard for moral behavior under international law. Every country does what it thinks is in its own interest. I think there are maybe two categories of copulation. Those having political power. It is a matter of Foreign Policy. The other category deals with millions of people for which you have information from private Service Providers. You can ask them to provide information before providing it to the nsa. First, you have the harvest everything. This is under the category of population outside the scope of international security. Which is quite wider than other countries. It is not a solution that we have in europe, and that is why when we see this data collected, we cannot only think of fighting against terrorism, but also thinking about offering things like that. We say it is about stopping terrorists, but is it about having a competitive edge, trolling for consumer behaviors and getting an edge on the competition in an economic war rather than a war on terrorism . Everybody is paying everybody. They collect data. Imagine 42 increase since 2010. Everybody is collaborating with this kind of Cyber Espionage and criminality. It is not a question of one or the other, everyone is doing that. In 2012, they had 50 billion. We have to protect europe, they are against those acts are you saying that the outrage in europe is because we are behind . We have those questions of communication. The first attack like that, it is the case. It is a question of communications. You guys work on this. A lot of people are shocked. The u. S. Has had its third ambassador after berlin and paris. This time, to madrid. As always, we learn about what is going on after it has happened. It is a disgrace that they are spying on governments and residents. This is a very serious violation. In berlin, they are particularly angry. They said it is thanks to the listening post inside of germany where the nsa did its snooping there. We have more on the story from nicholas. She loves her mobile phone and has known to protect colleagues frequently. However, that phone has become the center of a diplomatic and media storm. They said the u. S. Embassy in berlin was monitoring her. Headlined that the u. S. President barack obama knew that Angela Merkel was being spied on. He did not stop it. The nsa denies ever discussing with obama. Those allegations will be discussed when intelligence officials go for clarification. They point out if the eu strapping is confirmed, it is illegal. They ignore knowledge they acknowledged washington taking a hit. The unfortunate aspect is that mr. Snowden has divulged a lot of information that is damaging to the United States. The headline reports of obama saying to merkel, i knew nothing. German politicians are looking for a full parliamentary investigation. You said earlier that you are dubious as to whether barack obama is correct when his Spokesman Says that he did not know and that he was not privy to a conversation. Do you feel for the german interior minister that made a trip back in july and we have these further revelations . President s and diplomats tell Little White Lies to each other all the time for appearances sake. It is rather expected that obama has to say, i did not know about this. Just when french intelligence has been caught in years past spying on American Companies and the president had to say i had no idea, i am shocked. The fact that the u. S. Was listening to chancellor merkels phone, if that is true, i think that is fine. What makes the germans think that we have such a special bond that they are exempt from what is going on in our Foreign Policy e i know it sounds cynical, but there are people that fought. Dont think of germany as our best ally in the entire world. What kind of information are you looking for when you listen in to the phone conversation of the german chancellor . If she is having a conversation with president hollande, we dont care. If she has a conversation with Vladimir Putin about what to do about syria, we would like to know about that. Can i talk quickly about the 70 million phone records . The purpose of those is the toll date. Who called who. That is important because if the nsa finds a terrorist in madrid, we would probably like to know who that was two and we might like to know what other numbers that they called elsewhere. In the french press over the weekend, there was an entirely different explanation. The idea was to establish who is friends with two over, not the shortterm, but the longterm. To profile people. There is a lot that people dont know about signal intelligence. If you track down who is calling who, you have to keep those records month after month. Maybe two years from now. You dont want to go back and find out who was calling who. In a Perfect World, this would not be going on. That same Perfect World had n wars and no drug smugglers. Why are european leaders acting like they dont do the same . This is not targeted. The americans today or the American Intelligence Community considers all americans terrorists. Consider all europeans as terrorists. In the same fashion, senator kennedy could not get into an airplane because he had an irish name and was considered a terrorist. We have a problem in the vision of american intelligence communities. He was saying this is no big news, we know that World Leaders spy on one another. International law actually is quite tolerant of this. It doesnt outright ban spying at all. It can be a useful tool in the conduct of international relations. What is different here is the amplitude of the surveillance for regular people who do not hold Public Office and do not engage in terrorist activities who still find their data harvested. It poses the question of what kind of society we want to live in and the balance of liberty and security. How badly do you want security . How many personal freedoms will you give up . We will pick up on that point when we come back. Before we resume, we will give you a sample of the stories that we will be following at the top of the hour. A rash of storms, a big one across northern europe. Seven killed so far in those storms in britain, hitting parts of northern france, netherlands, and germany transport chaos also noted there. Prime minister David Cameron tells parliament that unless in beijing, an unexplained car crash leaves five dead. A flashpoint for disgruntled citizens. Unless they begin to behave more responsibly, newspapers could be prevented from publishing damaging leaks. The nsa probe scandal we have been following for you. This is the debate and we are asking if the nsa is out of control, talking about jean arthur coyle, a former cia agent that teaches in Indiana University in bloomington. A company that protects companies from cyber attacks, an attorney specializing in intellectual property, information technology, and data protection. From geneva, from the Research Center on intelligence. Before we resume the conversation, lets say hello to james. We have been talking about it. I handygate is one of the trending topics on social media. Very much a topic of conversation in germany. Across the spectrum, articles are being shared under the nsa on social media. Allegedly, obama was aware of all this going back to 2010. But then we see the nsa allegedly never told obama. It is classified information, so it is very difficult to verify and, of course, the big news of the day was spain. It was interesting to see Glenn Greenwald tweeting in advance. The blogger working with Edward Snowden. If you go back to when his partner was arrested, he is going to be much more aggressive it has been a solid and consistent drip of information keeping the story on the front pages. It would be dealt with at the same time. This is maintaining the story. A humorous note, the nsapi ckuplines, being funny on social media. We just met, but i feel like i already know everything about you. Also, cartoons with obama in the form of a satellite. Merkel is telling him off and reading the riot act. She says, tell me anything good. I suppose it points to a lot of what people say about the u. S. , that this espionage thing is not just the americans. It is a global phenomenon. James with our media watch segment right there. We are talking in part one of our discussion that the white house has been playing coy. There will be a review of the patriot act, the legislation put forth by the executive order is it law . It is law, o