One of the opponents. Behind it will come other federal programs every area of. This country will talk about what Johnson. And compare that to attempts. He's been watching the White House spokesperson we have. To deal with. In. 6 weeks. And here is the writers for Thursday the 3rd of August 2017 it's the 1st day of the poet Marvin Bell born in Santa Maria little farming community on the South Shore Long Island 1937 went in the army came back home published his 1st book of poems things we dreamt we died for and then another 10 years later stars which see stars switched to Nazi went on to teach at the Iowa Writers' Workshop for 40 years Marvin Bell who said much of our lives involves the word no in school were mostly told Don't do it this way do it that why I am but art is the big Yashin art you got a chance to make something where there was nothing it's the best day of the poet hidden corrodes born in Waterbury Connecticut 921 served in the Army Air Force during World War 2 went to graduate school on the g.i. Bill fell in love with jazz and moved to Chicago but in $1053.00 suffered a nervous breakdown spent the next year and a half in treatment for alcoholism once or electroshock therapy and left to move to roll Vermont and New York state he began to farm he worked as a mechanic hired himself out as a field hand kept up a hardscrabble lifestyle for decades and wrote poems about people who live by their hands in 1906 at the age of 75 his collection scrambled eggs and whiskey won the National Book Award on cruise died in 2008 after complications from a stroke. It's the 1st day of the journalist and war correspondent Ernie Pyle Ernest Taylor Pyle born there Dana Indiana 1900 went to Indiana University went to work on the Washington Daily News where he was unhappy sitting behind a desk so he and his wife packed up their Ford Roadster and took off on a 9000 mile trip around the United States when World War 2 broke out he became a war correspondent writing stories from the front from the soldier's perspective won the Pulitzer Prize Ernie Pyle said someday when peace has returned to this world I want to come to London again and stand on a certain balcony on a moonlit night and look down upon the peaceful silver curve of the Thames with its dark bridges but he was killed by machine gun fire on an island near Okinawa April 18th 1945 it was on the state 141 Juliana Ewing was born in the village of Eccles field in Yorkshire England she loved to make up stories for her siblings based on Hans Christian Andersen and the Grimm brothers she wrote plays for her siblings when she was 18 she founded a lending library and then began her publishing career writing stories for magazines her book The brownies and Other Tales was very popular practically unknown today but immensely popular in her time and the founders of the Girl Scout Movement named their junior level Scouts brownies in honor of her. Here's a poem for today by Laura McKee exotic tree which especially on long drives through the country you like to tell that story about your old girlfriend whose parent was killed one afternoon by a raccoon who stole in through the pet door it was horrible you say others everywhere are you laughing stop laughing she really loved burned. Exotic treats a poem by Laura McKee from See you soon published by the University of Arkansas press and used by permission here in the writers' nominate supported by the Poetry Foundation publisher of quote your magazine a monthly devoted to discovering and publishing new voices in poetry more Poetry Foundation or. Be well do good work and keep in touch. On Point this morning at 11 Trump supports a plan to cut legal immigration we're talking about Trump's immigration plans and how will the president's immigration revamp would remake America that's on point this morning at 11 right after your call at 10 here on 91.7. This is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross the failure of the latest attempt to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act coincided with the 52nd anniversary of the passage of Medicare and Medicaid my guest Bill Moyers has written a new article about how President Lyndon Johnson coaxed could jolt badgered buttonholed and maneuvered Congress into an acting Medicare for the aging and Medicaid to help low income people at the time more as was a special assistant to Johnson later from 1065 to 67 more years served as Johnson's press secretary he was a journalist before entering the political sphere and after leaving the Johnson administration Moyers returned to journalism he hosted public t.v. Shows from 1901 until just a couple of years ago he racked up about 36 Emmys and 9 Peabody Awards although he's retired from hosting his own shows he is the managing editor of Bill Moyers dot com where his article about the passage of Medicare is published Bill Moyers Welcome back to Fresh Air It is great to have you back again and I'm delighted to be here so Medicare the idea of health coverage for older people took a long time to pass but it dates back to 935 when f.d.r. Proposed it what was his proposal he wanted to get health insurance included as part of Social Security Social Security was quite popular but health care was not and the Republican Party and conservative Democrats and doctors around the country and an early form of the American Medical Association one that victory it took us 40 years and 4 Democratic presidents before we finally accomplished Medicare 50 years ago in 1967 in your article you describe what health care was like in your family when you tell us about that at the time when we're talking about the mid thirty's. Were in 935 when Roosevelt made his proposal I was a one year old my family was poor the Great Depression had robbed my father of being a tenant farmer he had took a job for a dollar a day helping to build a highway in southeast Oklahoma Highway I think from Dallas to Oklahoma City and my mother was marked all of her life by the fact that she had lost twin girls one at birth and. One Some months later I don't remember just how many because the nearest doctor the only doctor was too far away to get through the countryside in his horse and buggy in time to help so eventually my mother and dad moved into town and to pay the doctor who did deliver me my father carried by hand very large sandy stones to the site at the physician had to build his 1st office it's still there and this was exactly at the time Terry when as I said earlier those Republicans and conservative Democrats and the a.m.a. Were winning their fight to sink President Roosevelt's proposal so all through my life I was reminded of what it had meant to my parents and my family and of course to many others of that generation and beyond who didn't have coverage and good health care when they most needed it. Truman tried and failed to pass a version of Medicare then Kennedy and now b.j. Made it a plank in their platform. You write that you know Kennedy's death helped Lyndon Johnson actually and that that agenda how did l.b.j. Use Kennedy's death to try to unite people behind the passage of Medicare. Where they knew that Kennedy's program was his proposals on health care and civil rights and others that were very. Porton but were stalled in Congress and and on the plane back from Dallas on Air Force One coming back from Dallas with the new president a small coterie of aides and friends in the front compartment and l.b.j. Intuitively felt that that this was the moment to try to move what had been a stalled agenda in the Congress and so in a. Very him his 1st major address to Congress a few days after the funeral of Kennedy Johnson at the end of it said in that slow Texas drawl of his but with genuine conviction let us continue and that kind of sparked the awakening of America from their deep grief and a realization that Lott had it all on government had to work we had a new president let's let's back him as he does what he feels he needs to do and he felt he needed to act not on some new agenda but on an agenda that had been much discussed much very carefully conceived and stalled in Congress and that's how it came about that he pulled. The lever and sent us into action to do what eventually came to be known as The Great Society legislation although I often had some doubts about that sort of grandiose term but it nonetheless was the most aggressive legislative agenda since. Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman who whose New Deal was a very important part of his surprise upset victory in 1908. So you became Lyndon Johnson's press secretary so you were his press secretary during the passage of Medicare right. Well the 1st 2 years of the lot of I came back with him from Dallas went wide to the White House with him stayed in his home for a few days and then although I had at the time was that there are a draft of the Peace Corps and wanted to go back to the Peace Corps he insisted I stay and my 1st major assignment I had 2 major summits in 19641 was to manage the his campaign for election in November in his own right but the most important assignment I had was to put together the task forces that would lead to the legislative program of 965 that included by the way the Public Broadcasting Act which was passed in 1970 to include education it included poverty and it included health insurance so for 15 months I worked intensely own helping to shape that legislation including Medicare then in the mid part of 1965 as he had run through 2 or 3 press secretaries he insisted that I take that job and I did reluctantly Why were you reluctant. I loved what I was doing I mean I love at 1st I want to go back to the Peace Corps when I could 1st get free Secondly I thought creating this legislation and working with some of the best minds in government and from around the country was exhilarating it was exhausting but it was exhilarating and there was something coming out of it there was something being. Being created that would make a real difference in the lives of Hillary in Ruby borders and Marshall Texas and millions of people like them that I liked doing bad I like the anonymity of it and it was easier to get things done when you were not scary Mucci or than an international body like that and the 2nd thing is I did not want to be pressing Kerry I mean the 3rd time he asked me I couldn't say no I said no twice the 3rd time he insisted and I still have a sore shoulder from that encounter and I went home and that not I said to my wife as we went to bed well this is the beginning of the end and she said why and I said because obviously appealing to the New Testament with which I was familiar No man can serve 2 masters and I just didn't want to get caught in the middle between the press and the president I loved what I had been doing and I didn't. I didn't covet that that that job and the truth of the matter is in time as I anticipated our credibility was so bad we couldn't believe our own leaks so that wasn't part of the war in Vietnam right yes maney it was also because Lyndon Johnson that you know was a 13 of the most complex people I ever knew and it was you had to deal with a different persona from they did they are from week to week and sometimes it was it was difficult to figure out who he was at that particular time you find yourself cut addicting yourself even though you hadn't intended to when I took the job when it was announced my father sent me a telegram and he said Bill telegram most of your listeners don't know what a telegram is but it was then and. A tweet that took a long time to come by. But he said Bill tell the truth if you can but if you can't tell the truth don't tell a lie and I tried very hard to walk that line sometimes I felt like on the other on the wrong side of it by that but I it was that it was a it was a tough and tenuous assignment. If you're just joining us my guest is journalist Bill Moyers who's received about $36.00 Emmys and 9 Peabody's and he retired from hosting his own p.b.s. Shows but he still writing and is the managing editor of Bill Moyers dot com where his latest piece was just published it's about how l.b.j. Launched Medicare 52 years ago in spite of the opposition. Press secretary from 65 to 67 and was a special assistant to l.b.j. Before that we'll be back after a break this is fresh air later today on open air David Latulippe and his guests will talk about the world premiere of The Making of a great moment as space original play each and every thing a piece of journalistic theater at the Martian Peter Robinson will come in and talk to us about books including books on done Kirk and how to spend your summer in the library that's open air today at one here on 91.7 time now is 916. This is Fresh Air and if you're just joining us my guest is journalist Bill Moyers who is now the managing editor of Bill Moyers dot com in which he has a new piece about how l.b.j. Launched Medicare 52 years ago in spite of the opposition and it's very interesting piece to read in the light of the attempts by Republicans in the trumpet ministration Threepio place Obamacare one of the people trying to influence public opinion against Medicare was Ronald Reagan he was a spokes person for the at the time what was his role in the debate. He was hired by the a.m.a. To be their pitch man for the campaign to stop Medicare he was not yet in politics he would not run for governor of California for 2 more years this was 1964 remember and he would travel the country making speeches to organize groups and then he also cut a very persuasive audio and film. Short film that was circulated by an organization composed mainly of doctors wives who in their local communities where they knew everybody because mostly small towns in those days and small and medium sized towns they would get together their neighbors and the patients of their doctors husbands and and play this audio or this little film clip if they had the means to do so and Balrog it was very persuasive on that not persuasive anough to stop. The Medicare legislation but he was probably our most effective adversary and Barry Goldwater who was in 1964 the Republican presidential candidate I thought about this by the way when when John McCain threw up from Arizona recently to make his stand Barry Goldwater interrupted his campaign in the fall of 1964 flew to Washington and voted against the Medicare legislation we were then advocating and we lost by 4 votes his was one of those 4 votes but Reagan was clearly he could touch people in those days just as he did when President he was a superb communicator as the saying goes well embedded in your article about o.b.j. And Medicare you have a short excerpt of the recording Ronald Reagan made when he was a spokesperson for the a.m.a. Trying to persuade people against Medicare so thanks to you let's hear let's hear a short excerpt of that recording this is Ronald Reagan in 1064. Yes Ok behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country until one day as Norman Thomas said if you want I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free. That's how it's kind of familiar to me the whole idea that like government's going to take over medicine and then it's going to take over your life and that's going to be the end of freedom in America. Well that's a consistent conservative. Refrain and it has been from the very beginning it's not and it's not one you can dismiss frivolously because none of us want to live in George Orwell's. State a state in which government is to Tallaght area and tyrannical and we're under constant surveillance and you could hold out those fears of what was then you know the Stalinist communist state in Russia as a dystopian vision of America's future and of course none of us want to be dictated to by anyone and it was an argument that struck home with Americans who had it with many Americans who had a strong sense of individual as in the country was founded in no small part of liberty and justice for all and each therefore So it was it was an argument that persuaded people particularly when their local doctors and their doctors local wives were saying well this is going to put the United States government is going to put Roosevelt Truman are going to be a Johnson between you and your doctor Reagan who voted several times for Franklin Roosevelt by the way didn't seem to think then that his vote was going to diminish his freedom and to conservatives had taken that article to a very extreme level I mean there are many many countries in the world who have some form of universal health care even single payer health care and on the whole all there are always complaints because you can't have one policy that does fit all the whole most people in Norway and Sweden and Taiwan and Canada and Japan and places where they do. Have a form of single payer universal health care they don't seem to feel that they've lost their freedom it was an alarmist but effective argument so Johnson had quite a reputation for being a brilliant tactician in Congress give us an example of an arm he twisted or a deal he made to get an essential vote well he had a very effective powers of persuasion he knew how to phrase an issue. Are a challenge so vast it would hit would connect to people who had to vote on it in the House and Senate I mean when we were working on our bill and in 1965 I and others had urged that the Medicare bill include a provision for a retroactive increase in Social Security payments because they would be an economic stimulus and we sort of needed that at the moment and he called me on the phone and he said Well I I think it's fun to be retroactive but I think it can be defended I think Medicare can be defended on a hell of a better basis in Congress than this I mean we we do know that it affects the economy it helps in that respect and here's a direct quote from that telephone call to me that's not a basis to go to the Hill Moyer's it's not the justification we've just got to say that by God You can't treat grandma this way she's entitled and we promised it tour. When he talked like that to members of Congress they got it I mean he could tailor his appeal to the interests and prejudices of the member of the Senate or House in front of him but he knew have to get them to see it differently than the arcane language in the bill itself and at one point we were paralyzed again on the Medicare bill if we'd gotten a good bill out of the house and it was in the Senate and there was a conflict between the House and the Senate and we went to that how do you want to sell it we're down to the last round and if we get the argument right we can get a good majority in the Senate and a good majority in the house and he said Give everybody bragging rights he said You go to them and you say one day their grandson or their granddaughter is going to look back and say I'm paraphrasing here my grandfather was in Congress when they passed Medicare and he said you know those grandchildren are going to be so grateful to you and their parents are going to be so great for you because they didn't have to find the money to pay for grandma and grandpa in the nursing home so you go to the miss a they can brag that they were there when the moment came to decide for their parents and their own generation and you know what I can tell you one after I saw the light go off in one congressional face after another when that argument was made you're writing history you're can brag about it to your grandchildren that was how he did it and then of course he knew how to play the tough game of of threats against members of Congress who didn't vote for it he could offer a damn You know he knew then that Johnson was a genius in knowing everyone's price and he knew that some senators just wanted to bring their wives to dinner at the White House some senators wanted a photograph of them with the president some senators wanted a damn bill hona River and. Their home state he knew how to trade he wants said to us you know the cardinal rule of what you're doing up in Congress is if you don't got something to give you're not going to get something to get in other words you've got a trade and that was his mandate when you go up to see Wilbur Mills the chairman of the house powerful conservative Democrat who was chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee who could kill this bill at any moment and then for some time kill the Medicare bill you got to give him something for what you want to get from him that was his genius I mean if what all of this shows is is that it takes a president who is informed and engaged and active in the legislative process respecting the differences between the branches but it takes somebody who knows what's going on who cares about the details of the bill who is willing to sit one o one I mean I can see right now Lyndon Johnson having individual and collective members of Congress stand coffee in the morning lunch at noon a drink at 6 o'clock even dinner sometimes and then he would invite in the head of the Chamber of Commerce the head of if avail c.e.o. Very important the passage of Medicare they brought their 14000000 members to back it that's how he worked at it you know he had a large persona he was out doing body things in public making speeches and that sort of thing but he Medicare preferred to work quietly and behind the scenes because he did not want the public to think he was dominating Congress and he was dominating Congress he was persuading Congress My guest is Bill Moyers His article about how l.b.j. Convince Congress to pass Medicare is published on Bill Moyers dot com after we take a short break we'll talk about some of his experiences as L.B.J.'s press secretary his thoughts about President Trump spokespeople and he will reflect on his life at the age of 83 I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air. Won. The new power Family Foundation supports w.h.y. Wise fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the Joyce Foundation working to ensure that all students arrive at kindergarten ready to learn and graduate from high school prepared to succeed in college work in life learn more joy safety end. And from the Epstein Family Foundation in support of the David Gilkey below to Monem a more real fund established to support N.P.R.'s international journalists their coverage and their commitment to providing the news of the world to audiences back home. Coming up in a half hour it's your call with Rose angular rose in Syria tell us what's coming up at 10 o'clock Good morning or Good morning Kevin Oh if you get a chance you have to see the documentary Riker's that Bill Moyers made all yeah really it's it's hard to watch but such an important documentary and you can watch it now you can find it online today we are going to talk about a very important story regarding about standing in Iraq and the water protectors who are fighting the Dakota access pipeline thanks to the intercepts we are now learning about this mercenary firm called tiger swan which was started by. Retired Army Colonel General James Aris during the height of the war in Iraq he wanted to compete with Blackwater and documents have been leaked to the interest up showing that tiger swan spied on water protectors and called them g hottest fighters My God it's gets even worse 10 o'clock today 10 o'clock today we hope you can join us thanks Fred thank you this is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross back with Bill Moyers his latest article is about how President Johnson managed to convince Congress to pass Medicare the latest attempt to repeal and replace Obamacare coincided with the 52nd anniversary of the passage of Medicare and Medicaid whereas worked as l.b.j. Special assistant and press secretary after leaving the administration more has returned to journalism he hosted public t.v. Series from 1901 until just a couple of years ago he's now managing editor of Bill Moyers dot com where his article about Medicare is published. You left the l.b.j. Administration during the period when the war in Vietnam was at the center of American politics. And my understanding is when you left the administration when you left your job as press secretary that you and l.b.j. Never spoke again. Well why didn't that was in jail that was well that was in January of 1967. I had been press secretary for over a year he was escalating the war in Vietnam I wish I could tell you that I had been a moral prophet and warning against the war I wasn't as the war were at all and that and the damage was evident it began to be deeply troubling I was an advocate for stopping the bombing of North yet when I used to come to meetings in the Cabinet Room late as I was often late because I was also press secretary and somebody had me cornered he would sort of half amusedly and half cynically say Here comes a band the bomb bill and but mainly Kerry I had as I said earlier been working on the domestic legislation it was deeply satisfying to deal with the work on education reform and and health reform and and a better tax system and the war on poverty and all of that and as the war escalated more and more of the resources that the president intended to commit to these domestic programs to a healthier saner society were going to war if you want to make creative policy it was not a good time and to be in government because of the war was consuming everybody's energy everybody's passion and everybody's time and it was very hard to be constructive in such a destructive era I understand I lived on that as a reason for leaving. But not necessarily as a reason for never talking to l.b.j. Again. Well this is difficult to talk about personally but some people said he and I had a father son relationship. And I don't know if that was true but I never mistook him for him me more as my father who whom I loved deeply and he loved me but he always had some young men recently graduated from college working for him because he had been head of the National Youth Administration for Franklin Roosevelt in Texas that was at the pression air organization that found jobs for young people mostly young men and he believed in nurturing the next generation of political leaders in Texas and he saw in me possibly a politician of the future and we have a very special relationship and I think both of us were heartbroken when we parted with some other. Other people feeding some rumors and some gossip and speculated know what had caused us to part and it just never I mean I wrote him 2 or 3 letters and he would respond. Tepidly but appropriately and then I did see him when we when the dedicate at the dedication of the l.b.j. Library I think that was in 1971 we just said hello and and. 18 months later he was dead and we never had a chance to talk again since you were the press secretary I am really interested in hearing your reactions to what's been happening at the White House Communications Office. So what's your impression of how 1st Spicer and Sanders has dealt with difficult questions from the press. Or let me say that. I'm wary of criticizing my successors as press secretary it's a hard job and in any circumstance and I certainly didn't handle the press secretary job beautifully are perfectly when I was there you know Terry to be very frank it's very hard to be a journalist today because. We're supposed to observe behavior not examined motives or psychological. Issues inside the the the people we're watching and it's hard to be a journalist because I don't have the language to describe adequately for my viewers or readers the malevolent Fury's that have been released into our body politic this penchant for chaos which is at the a dagger. Being scooped twisted in the heart of our political process I don't get it and I don't know how to explain it to people you have to watch I watched the briefings of Sean Spicer to see if I could understand and explain the chaos that was there it goes to the character and persona of the person they are trying to help communicate to the public and I cannot explain satisfactorily as a journalist perhaps I could as a cycle analyst or a psychiatrist what we're seeing but what we're seeing is a kind of chaos we don't have have not had we've had failed presidents and and brilliant and successful press secretaries we've never had this situation where the president is living in a different reality from everybody else including those who are trying to serve him in the White House and penetrating reality and helping the country even his own administration. Understand it is almost an impossible job it's like that movie arrive where the aliens come from beyond and try to communicate with humans and because neither humans can communicate with the aliens they are the aliens with the you're human it's a tragic exercise and a failed effort that's where we are right now this is an alien force in the persona and presence of our president and I feel for the people who try to serve him. The mid obviously they do it because they want to and they're willing to put up with it but it's fairy fairy difficult to understand Sean Spicer didn't have to do it he could have quit but he wanted it to be obvious he felt drawn to he wanted to try to make a difference and it's impossible in there in fact that you have a new chief of staff the new chief of staff is not going to change the character of the principals who he's trying to help so it's so weird bizarre and very very tumultuous situation that is very difficult to decipher so in one of your articles you called Kellyanne Conway the queen of bull Yeah so really when you hear one of the White House spokespeople saying things that you know are factually not true and say you hear it on t.v. How would you like to see it treated I think so many journalists are just struggling to. Keep up with correcting misstatements that are coming out during live interviews. And that's very difficult because it changes the relationship the conversation but I really wish all of our interrogators our interviewers our host would you know that to try to learn from the b.b.c. Which although it's a state sponsored taxpayer paid for system. They really are tougher on politicians than than we are and they're really harder on the propagandist for the other side and look I was not a perfect press secretary I made a lot of mistakes but I did feel that the job was to try to help the reporters get what they needed to tell their stories and have to present a stand what the reporters were trying to do I never did think of myself as a propagandist for the administration of the White House. But these people I'm listening to and have been watching in the trumpet ministration are really just you know they're lying they're deceiving us and if you don't call that out then the law becomes a part of the lived experience of the people who are watching or listening and it's true we haven't found a way to deal with the Kellyanne Conway he's all the Sean Spicer who's who deliberately are lying in behalf of their president I wouldn't have lasted p.r. Salinger wouldn't have lasted James Haggerty wouldn't have lasted we wouldn't have lasted 6 weeks if we had said we were going to live for the president that we served. If you're just joining us my guest is Bill Moyers and his latest piece on his website Bill Moyers dot com is about how l.b.j. Launch Medicare 52 years ago in spite of the opposition piece that's interesting to read in the light of the attempts to repeal and replace the way we're going to take a short break and then we'll be right back this is Fresh Air. Support from 2. One workplace venture which donated furniture to the station as part of our recent renovation one workplace is a family owned Northern California company specializing in tailored furniture furniture and workspace solutions show rooms in Santa Clara San Francisco and Oakland information at one workplace all one word dot com. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Progressive Insurance comparing car insurance rates from multiple insurers so shoppers can evaluate options in one place now that's progressive comparisons available at progressive dot com or 1800 progressive and from Cancer Treatment Centers of America which publishes treatment results for 11 types of cancer including quality of life ratings to help patients and their caregivers make informed choices about their care learn more at Cancer Center dot com. This is Fresh Air My guest is journalist Bill Moyers who's received about 36 Emmys and 9 p. Bodies he hosted several public television shows over many years now he's the managing editor of Bill Moyers dot com where his latest piece was published it's about how l.b.j. Launched Medicare 52 years ago in spite of the opposition and more as was L.B.J.'s press a sec press secretary from 65 to 67 and before that was a special assistant to President Johnson let's talk about you you are $83.00 now it's an age most people are retired now you're not doing your t.v. Shows anymore but you're still writing and serving as managing editor of the website Bill Moyers dot com Why have you chosen to not fully retire. Well you know I took on a weekly series when I was 70 and I kept it going until I was 82 and it was it was exhilarating and it was satisfying and it gave me I didn't think of it as a. As a treatment for old age I just thought of it as a challenge of every day and I'm lucky with my d.n.a. My mother lived to be in her early ninety's my grandmother live that long my father lived into his late eighty's I just have the d.n.a. In the some of us a blessed that way and some of us aren't and as long as you can as long as there's something useful to do every day and something in that is satisfying and challenging I don't see any reason to to give it up I did give up the show because there are some other things I do want to do including writing as you say but I just think being engaged in the life of the mind and the life of your country and the life of your craft is the greatest blessing that a man or woman can have and I am blessed that way and I'm going to do what I can every day to contribute to my grand kids future. What did the eighty's mean to you when you were considerably younger. I didn't know when I was growing up Terry said sick people in their sixty's were very old to me yeah me too yes seem very old I didn't think of myself oh when I turn 60 or 70 or 75 or 80 you know I retired 3 times from my work as a television journalist and came back not for any sense of distress out of any sense of distress but just because I had a more another opportunity to do it you know we've raised every penny of every production that that we have created my life and I over these years she was my business partner as well as my marital partner the last 62 years and and there were times when it was more difficult to raise money than other times so we take a hiatus and during that hiatus we'd raise more funds and come back and do something interesting but I never thought of the eighty's as a as a downward slope I'm quite aware I mean I've done 7 eulogies in the last couple of years for dear friends of mine who are my age I'm quite aware that every step is a potential last step well aware that I may not have Mars known only other hand I must see 10 more. Be one of those Lyndon Johnson and to spite who would live to be $100.00 would have found something every day to do to keep me alive and with the world. And it's just based on something I gave a great deal of thought to becoming 80 I might when I become one of a very one of my dearest friends Norman Lear at 94 he still producing situation comedies out in California and still actively engaged to his organization people for the American way he's lucky I'm lucky I'm going to keep at it as long as I can you've mentioned the eulogies that you've given lately the find yourself thinking more about mortality. No I find myself wondering what it's like not to be here I've been around a long time I have no idea where I came from I have no idea where I'm going but being here has been. Remarkable and it's difficult to imagine not being here but I sometimes think about that what would it be like not to be here and of course like any officer in the military who. Who who's had a long career and that he doesn't want to quit before the next war begins and I don't want to quit before the next big story or the next big evolution in American democracy happens but of course I will be and I'm accustomed to I can't tell you what it's going to be me not just reading this wonderful me more I'm dying and you know Judith and I did a one of our most popular series believe it or not it was about death and dying it was called own our own and how most Americans won't choose the way they they go I occasionally think about what it will be like in the last hours or days or weeks of one's life but for the moment I can't see that far ahead I can only see the challenge of the next day on the website the next essay the next special we just did a very important documentary called Rikers an American jail about the culture of cruelty in New York's largest and meanest jail Rikers Island here between Queens and Manhattan that kept me engaged fully for 2 years with young men and women who had been brutalized at Rikers I mean I can't think of not having done that documentary over the last 2 years between 81st and 83rd birthday I can't think of what documentary I don't want to do between 83 and 85 and if I die in the half way through it somebody will finish it that I know the work will go on the world will go on and there will be other people as concerned and more concerned about the moxie than I am he said you have no idea where you came from or where you're going . You had been a Baptist minister you're very well read in the Bible you're very well schooled in other religions as well you've done a lot of programmes about faith and reason do you feel like all of your immersion in religion has not given you answers to where you came from and where you're going and do you mind that it hasn't given you answers No I think that that. You know seminary it was where I got my questions answered and life is where I got my answers question you. Mean that the experience of life is remarkable. And universe. Far less than you want to learn and far more than you expected it to and the big questions that relate to people ask me why do you keep covering religious so much and by the way I do as much expose investigative journalism of corruption in Iraq I'm doing and and Wall Street hell that is anybody else but I do keep coming back to religion because I know that religion is a powerful animating. Force in people's lives far more than I think many of us who live in a secular world of journalism understand but but religion is is a motivator of behavior it's a motivator of probably more wars have been fought over religion than for any other reason but also more hospitals have been built for from people convicted to do a good thing who are religious religion is a mixed blessing in our lives but it's a powerful presence in the lives of millions of millions of people and for a journalist to ignore it. Would it would be irresponsible it would be asif not a responsible but it would be unfortunate because that journalist would be overlooking the powerful intuitions that come from faith the more as it's been great to talk with you again thank you so much for coming back to our show. Thank you Terry for being who you are thank you Bill Moyers latest article about how l.b.j. Convince Congress to pass Medicare is published on Bill Moyers dot com after we take a short break David Edelstein will review the new film Wind River starring Jeremy Renner and Elizabeth Olsen This is Fresh Air. Coming up on the next Saturday probably a show from p.r.i. Our conversation was all about favorite artist Cheech Marin on his memoir Cheech and. Chong director Amazon take on a film United Kingdom and folk music legend Arlo Guthrie on his music and on the next Travis Smiley Show from n.p.r. I. Have a smiley 12 noon tomorrow here on Q No w m b hosted b.b.c. News today if a deal could be struck in Venezuela what would it look like and who would need to concede most Also the book tis of South Africa how an Indian family rose to dominance and the technological obstacle course to get what you want online in China b.b.c. News hour this afternoon at 2 hero 91.7 k l w back to Fresh Air time is 951. This is Fresh Air Our film critic David Edelstein has a review of the new movie Wind River a mystery thriller set in Wyoming's Native American reservation of the same name it was written and directed by Taylor Sheridan who began his career as an actor and was a regular on the t.v. Series Veronica Mars and Sons Of Anarchy his 1st produced screenplay was the 2015 hits a car yo followed last year by the Oscar nominated hell or highwater his new film stars Jeremy Renner and Elizabeth Olsen on the evidence of his movies the screenwriter Taylor Sheridan has a strong social conscience and he packs his convictions about income inequality racism and government oppression into bloody pulp thrillers with a chance of reaching a mainstream audience Sykora Oh hell or highwater and now Wind River which is also his directorial debut the new film is not a last up to the other 2 it's talky it's clumsily plotted and there's a questionable piece of casting but it hits home it turns out his passion and keen grasp of genre conventions can compensate for all kinds of missteps the film setting is Wyoming's Wind River Reservation where impoverished Native Americans struggle was staggering rates of crime and drug addiction it's where fish and wildlife ranger Corey Lambert played by Jeremy Renner goes hunting for a big cat that's been plaguing ranchers and finds the frozen body of a young Native American woman a short time later he accepts the offer of a loan inexperienced f.b.i. Agent named Jane Banner played by Elizabeth Olsen to help navigate the inhospitable countryside partly he joins her because the young woman was the daughter of his close friend Martin played by Gil Birmingham partly it's because he lost. Zone daughter who is half Native American to crime on what they call the Reds a few scenes in Wind River are is grim as the one in which Lambert and Banner travel by snowmobile to the young woman spots in their serious one turned out the front is much deeper than the back the sisters running. Sure. She ran till she dropped here. To the pool. Or Face it the snow. Gets 20 below here at night so if you fill your lungs up with that cold air you're running. Into freezing up your lungs fill up with blood. These are covered up so wherever she came from. She went all the way here. Along the 1st year. She crawled up in a tree lined. For how far do you think them can run barefoot and there. Aren't. As it isn't as well to live. Specially in these conditions. But I knew that girl. Was a fire. Power for your insurance and your intuition and for that. That's a haunting exchange but Taylor Sheridan on the whole is not a particularly judicious director of his own material he not only permits him self to overwrite but he shoots what he overwrites on the nose with none of the artful distancing of his last 2 directors Dinny villain of who gave sick Ario a feverish palate and David McKenzie who brought a classical Western grandeur to hell or highwater a scene in which Lambert counsels Martin on how to grieve for his daughter brings the film to a dead halt and seems bizarre given the fact that Martin has just gotten the terrible news as for Elizabeth Olsen I think she's capable of terrific things she played Juliet in the worst professional Shakespeare production I've ever seen and she was good she's good here too but she looks so in Congress Lee juvenile in her f.b.i. Jacket that it's a painful reminder of Hollywood star casting mandates Fortunately the setting itself dispels that with of Hollywood the frozen landscape seems corrosive its vastness out of scale. With the dilapidated dwellings and haggard people men and women who've given up hope teenagers visibly addled by meth and opiates and the atmosphere of malign neglect as Sheridan was moved by stories of Texas foreclosures to write hell or highwater he came to Wind River after reading about the brutal unsolved killings on this reservation a 2012 New York Times feature on the murder epidemic said residents could expect to live 49 years unemployment that year was higher than 80 percent versus 6 percent in the rest of Wyoming when he doesn't have unwieldy speeches Jeremy Renner conveys helplessness and grief eloquently and Gil Birmingham was also in hell or highwater is very fine as the father immobilized by rage so is the rest of the cast which includes Native Americans and Graham Greene whose own IATA and Canadian although the resolution to the mystery wouldn't do credit to a 3rd rate thriller It's crazily powerful Sutton and bloody but with no real catharsis just a sense of waste and a feeling of what now David Edelstein is film critic for New York magazine if you'd like to catch up on fresh air interviews you missed like yesterday's interview with former Vice President Al Gore check out our podcast will you find lots of interviews. Executive producer to get e-mail or our interviews and reviews are edited by any salad for this my. Moods 80 and thing which honor I'm Terry Gross. So. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Audible with a new original podcast series The Butterfly Effect with Jon Ronson contributor to This American Life about the unintended consequences of when tech took over porn can be heard at Autobytel dot com slash butterfly and from Home Advisor matching homeowners with background check professionals for a variety of home projects from minor repairs to major remodels homeowners can read reviews compare prices and book appointments online at Home Advisor dot com. I mean when you're. Going into care w.-a San Francisco target at 9 pm it is. We've got classics and new music from Africa and the African Diaspora local music scene interviews and studio performances join us on the web at k l w r g. Singing in a maximum security prison in. 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