0 verdict. if you are not familiar with this knocking out trend, it is where a gang cold-cocks a person, killing them. given the tweets and the gang stuff will the justice department see this as a hate crime? i don't think so, it won't fit a story likely "law and order." they're planning a trayvon martin episode, calling it an american tragedy. but the other american tragedy are the producers and networks and hacks who accept this. they just don't think it is fair to demand from a community what it demands from their own. even if the crime is not about race, it is an evil act, rooted in destruction in the communi communities. a black teen is invisible, until he is a body. and a dead person from australia is just the price you pay to be politically correct. hey, katey, how are you? >> good, how are you? >> do you buy this boredom? do you think they were just bored? >> you know, i think it is correct they didn't have productive things to do. i think the key here is, no one really wants to talk about is, the guys came from broken homes. the guy accused of pulling the trigger posted pictures of himself wielding firearms on his account, on social media. his mother is in jail, she is not around. that means he is not spending time with his mother. the district attorney said that these kids were running around the apartment complex, basically raising themselves. and there was a gang initiation issue here, saying they were involved in that. there were more kids on the list to be taken out that day. and it really comes down to them not having the guidance they need and having more productive things to do. >> that is a good point, one man, his son was james johnson, who was on the hit list. he is the guy is guess raised the idea it was a gang initiation thing, let's roll that. >> i think it was an initiation. >> gang initiation. >> as i understand, after that happened, there was a list that pops up with my son on the top of the list and four others they were going to bump off. >> so you think that the killing, even though they didn't know who chris lane was, could have been an initiation. >> they point out the media routinely like in the george zimmerman case will bring up race, but avoid describing like the race characteristics in chris lane's killing. is that a fair point? >> yeah, i think that is a fair point. let's go back to the point of whether or not it was a hate crime, seems like this guy said, he typed out that he hated white people. i do think it is a gang, it has an awful lot of similarities to the gang initiation rites in los angeles, i think the justice department, if they were investigating a hate crime, even though it won't bring a death penalty, which i'm against anything. seems like you could bring this to a bigger issue than just simply being bored. >> who cares? it is a hate crime. he tweeted, hash tag, hate them, 90% of white people are mean, hate them. he literally said this is a hate crime, who cares if convicted they're going to get life behind bars? they can't get the death penalty because they're under 18. my issue is that the media is not calling this what this is. these are two black kids, the shooter is black, he killed a white guy, he said he hates white people, i hate them, hash tag, hate them. this is a black on white violence that the media doesn't like. they want to hear white on black crime, they don't want to talk about black on white crime or black on black crime. the only thing that fits the rundown on msnbc seems to be white on black crime. >> it almost feels like since the trayvon martin stuff, a game of like race poker, where i see your white on black crime and i raise you with our black on white crime. is it just better to look at the decline of the family and a destructive culture or the color of skin? >> that is why i have always been against hate crime legislation, because crime is crime, and then when you try to define it, is it a race crime or crime against gays? one of the things that bothers me, i do think if it is gang violence, if that is a continuing problem in urban areas, or this is not even an urban area. it is 80 miles from oklahoma city. boredom, i'm not buying it. however, there is not a lot of employment, you do have the broken home problem. there is not a lot of direction. and i think we could take a lesson from our military, bob may not like this. i just had that idea. remember when general petraeus designed the surge in iraq. and the point was, you had to go in and stop the violence and then you could start to deal with the root causes. and you had to get more police in the community. i think maybe that is what we need all across america. and if -- localities and municipalities want to participate, then the federal government could probably help them. we have a lot of vets that came back, use the skills they learned, the leadership skills they learned overseas, to deal with the problem. at least stop it. >> that is almost how they reduced a lot of killing in chicago, which is a higher presence of police. >> and you know, why were they bored? they were bored because they didn't have jobs, they were not working, they're sitting around, how can we keep ourselves busy? let's kill somebody, there is one, let's shoot him. then we had the discussion on stop and frisk. one point i made was that the crime was very much tied to poverty and jobs, more so than . however, it is not a stop-and-frisk discussion. if we bring more jobs, if more kids are able to hold a job down, maybe they won't be bored and do something as stupid as this. >> but you know what? there are a lot of people who don't have jobs and are not killing people. if you look at the parallel, crime is going down, while unemployment is stagnant. >> i was going to say on that point, there is talk in australia of boycotting the united states, saying it is a dangerous place to be. i really don't think that is fair. i understand that is an international incident. it is an extremely unfortunate incident. but as greg points out, crime has been cut since 1992. it is important to see it is a gang problem. we see shootings like that happening in gangs, all over the country, mostly in bigger cities. but we do see these things happening in smaller communitying communityingcommunityi-- communities. why are gangs not the crips and the bloods not seen as hate groups? because they essentially hate each other, crips don't like bloods, and bloods don't like crips? >> well, more likely they're engaged in warfare over drugs, dana doesn't like the hate crime legislation, i'm not particularly favorable to it either. but in some cases, you don't have anything to fall back on. where in some cases, a person gets killed because they're gay, and then the feds can come in and say it is a hate crime. that is a situation where i think it is fine. we talked about this yesterday, a lot of countries in the world think we're crazy for what we do about guns here. and it is something that is a major conversation piece in other countries because we do allow guns freely to move around in this country. and we have guns moving around, you get people who are hateful people like this get their hands on it. >> we don't let guns roam around freely. >> yes, we do. >> no, you are required to get a background check. the only ones running around are those purchased illegally. one more thing to point out, in this exact case, a .22 caliber pistol was used. it is illegal to own a pistol until you were 21 years old in this country. they broke the law there, guarantee they broke the law to get it. the person that got it for them broke the law, this has nothing to do with guns at all. >> somebody legally bought that gun. >> you don't know that. >> you're saying they ban firearm s completely? >> i'm saying -- >> if somebody illegally buys a gun, eventually it will make its way to a criminal -- >> there are two questions i would like to ask, before saying that the handgun -- >> so what is your point? >> my point is there is a huge incident with these shows, you can buy in virginia and south carolina, seven guns without background checks. a lot of incidents come from that. >> did they come from the last sentencing laws, when you were caught with an illegal gun you don't spend that much time in jail. if there was real punishment there would be less gun crime because they would be enforcing national laws. >> i'll say it again, we said it yesterday. it doesn't matter what the gun laws anywhere, those kids were not allowed to have the gun that killed this man. >> and they got it from places -- >> doesn't matter where they get it from, bob, you could have hit them with a sledgehammer. >> i had a firearm at the age of 11 to go hunting with my father and never used it in the way these children used it. i had not a broken home, i was raised properly, i was taught how you use it respectfully. it is not fair to say just because you're a law abiding gun owner, somehow they end up in the wrong hands. >> i didn't suggest it. >> i was going to say outside of the gallun argument, another ast has been the social media component. and how one, these kids in some ways are the evidence against themselves. because they were tweeting and bragging about it. but also, if you have a rural community outside of oklahoma city, it is easier to find out what is going on with the crips and the bloods and whatever, because one of the kids tweeted this could help his rap career. as they're trying to grow up in a transitioning america, they are actually -- social media can become your own worst enemy. >> can i make one quick point and we got to go, greg? can you imagine if it was reversed. two white guys kill a black kid, and they find this social stuff, black people are angry, hash tag hate them? the left would be all over it. it would be the next trayvon martin media -- >> they're all over this, aren't they? >> i think the point eric is making, race would become a point immediately in the reverse, people are very shy talking about race suspects. for instance, last week, two gay men were attacked in chelsea by a group of thugs, shouting anti-gay slurs. christine quinn, the candidate says you have to find these guys. no description of what they looked like, immediately in your head, you're going why aren't they publishing descriptions? because they don't want to. it is political incorrect to do that. they are paralyzed. we can't say because somebody is afraid of looking like a bigot, i think that is where we're at, right? >> are you asking me that? >> i will now. >> i think it is absolutely ridiculous that you can't describe who a perpetrator is. >> all right, ahead on the five, how one woman was able to help stop a gunman. all coming up.