inflaming the situation? a federal confrontation with the law-breaking nevada rancher becomes a major media story, manly on fox. was it actually big news? ed snowden has a bizarre question and answer session with vladimir putin as his nsa leak leads to pulitzer prizes for two newspapers. has his conduct overshadowed the awards. plus, more of our interview with ex-cbs correspondent sharyl attkisson as another investigative reporter leaves. i'm howard kurtz and this is "mediabuzz." happy easter, everyone. it began with attorney general eric holder getting grilled on the hill and explaining about his treatment at al sharpton's annual convention. that brought sharp criticism from pundits on the right who in turn were hammered by pundits on the left. both sides declined the use of race. >> what attorney general has ever had to deal with that kind of treatment? >> that's right. >> what president has ever had to deal with that kind of treatment? >> do you think that the house committee called him in and said, let's get the black guy today? is that what they did? does anybody believe that? let's get the black guy today. >> britt hume, as i see it, is race baiting by presenting the position, goldie, that both barack obama and attorney general eric holder have used races, both a shield and a sword. >> i am sick and tired of your friends and party playing this bs race card. it is mean. it is evil. it is devive is. it is divisive and it is slanderous. >> a percentage voted against barack obama in 2012. >> are the media making matters worse? joining us now, lauren ashburn, ed pinkerton and kelly goss, special correspondent for the root. >> it's like cat nip for journalists. it reflects a divided country. it reflects a divided media, for example, huffington post, holder says he isn't playing the race card. news max, holder plays the race card. then jonathan from "new york" magazine says race has been the real story of obama's presidency. >> when it comes to this latest incident involving eric holder, jim, who didn't actually mention race, though he brought it up in the context of speaking to a largely african-american audience, are conservative commentators themselves injecting race into the political dialogue by bringing it up in this fashion? >> i think the tone that holder took in front of the national action network was clearly playing for sympathy from that audience. what i would focus on if i were the media editor, if there was such a thing subis why is al sharpton the go-to person for racial discussions, including on msnbc? this is a man who recent revelations show that he was -- informative to the fbi. >> he says he was helping to catch bad guys. >> interesting enough, he there was an allegation. we reported in 2002 and for part of his presidential campaign, now, again, why wasn't he knocked out of the box as a credible authority on anything decades ago is beyond me. >> this is broader than reverend al. are liberal commentators injecting race by denouncing some of the conservative pundits for what they are describing as race baiting. everybody is talking about race. >> yes, everyone is talking about race. no to your first question. the additional question when we started this segment is does the media make things worse? yes. here's how. there are lots of stories that have to do with race that should be covered, that are not. colbert, paula deen, what did this person mean? we have statistics in housing and the workplace, all these things that don't get the coverage they should. >> because they're not sexy enough. >> they're not sexy. you took the words out of my mouth. i will say this, in terms of who's inflaming who here, the reality is that i've done countless stories, howard, on gop efforts to try to reach out to black voters, which i'm rooting for. i don't think it benefits black voters when one person seems to think they have a better vote. what's frustrating is that this whole perception are the ones stoking the series about racism is not true. "new york" magazine did a slide show a few years ago. the real obstacle for the gop reaching out to black vote serz not liberal media bias. it's not democrats. it's stupid things republicans say that are racially offensive that are rarely covered. >> i assume you mean stupid things that some republicans say. >> definitely somepublicans say. yes. >> what i sometimes wonder as i listen to this echo chamber, whether there's the media world which likes to pounce on these stories and the real world, lots of average americans talking about these questions, what does eric holder say? what did the pundits say about what he said? >> i think this is mostly an inside the beltway, a very political story. there have been polls that show that people in the country the fly-over country as we like to say are concerned about jobs, putting food on the table. and yes, maybe there are -- they are discussing racial topics but it is not the primary agenda. >> i agree with that. i would just add to it what kelly said. if you want to take an issue where african-americans and republicans could -- and charter schools, republican politicians like eric cantor and rand paul have gone out of their way to push and advance charter schools. they won major victories, including in new york see, yet it's much more fun for the media to cover the latest food fight. >> much more fun but is it less responsible? >> more fun and less responsible. >> that seems to be the consensus here. >> i can't look at this thing and not think of the easter candy sheep or whatever they're called. >> peeps. >> the racial baiting stories are the peeps of the media. >> can i say one thing, too, echoing this, that's where the issue is, where republicans and democrats, including of different races have worked across the aisle, which is one of the reasons it gets less coverage. it's too kumbaya. everyone is trying to get along. >> i am all for coverage of inner city problems, housing, where the problems affect all people of all rations and ethnicities. >> we sometimes see here, anyone that criticizes are random. >> i do think that the word racist is thrown around too casually and cavalierly. it takes the power out of it when there aretruisms of racism. race card and race baiting, colin powell, one of the greatest men who served our country was called a race baiter because he said some of the criticism of the president is racist. i don't think anyone thinks secretary powell is a crazy liberal activist. >> you have to agree with bill o'reilly. he's making sense when we saw on the clip that he said, that people didn't decide to go after the black guy today. they decided to go after the attorney general. i think that the controversies that we cover, the controversies as we call them, are ginned up, because people don't like what eric holder or anybody else who's a person of color has to say. it automatically becomes this race issue in the media which then explodes. >> if eric holder wanted to be a hero to republicans, he could look into solyndra and benghazi, for example. he won't do it for some strange reason. >> i'm not saying he shouldn't be criticized but to go back to your first answer, it seems like cat nip, everybody pounces on it and the argument itself fuels cable ratings. i want to turn to a slightly lighter topic but one that stunned me with all this political punditry about chelsea's baby, chelsea clinton announcing, with her mother, that she's pregnant. you have all of these smart analysts saying what is the impact of this on 2016? are we perhaps overanalyzing, overthinking what ought to be a routine, joyous occasion? the daughter of a woman who yes, who will probably run for president is pregnant with her first child. >> you've been in this town for how many years and you don't have a cynical bone in your body? i think a lot of reporters think maybe this was planned. >> maybe this was planned? you don't think that chelsea clinton and her husband are entitled to try to have a baby whenever they want? >> sure. >> they looked at the political calendar. if it was to be planned, it would be planned for next year. >> it could be that the pregnancy was a happy event, then the mainstream media trying to help hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign make this baby the royal baby. the bush first grand child got no attention at all to speak of. >> if we're talking about media conspiracy theories, the only conspiracy is that people have seen how much coverage the kate middleton and prince william's baby has gotten. they know that's a story. that's a friendly "people" magazine story that people love to click on. that's why news outlets ran with it. >> this is chelsea. she's not running for anything. >> people have been doing the america's royal baby. was this story overanalyzed and overcovered? absolutely. am i pleading guilty? absolutely. i was in the room that day when she made the announcement. what happens when i leave here not covering the one thing that everyone considers news. >> you have to realize this is hillary clinton. she's most likely running for president. it hasn't been good for her. a lot of people say she's too old. there is coverage, howie. >> the guy who ran in 2012, he was a grandfather. how much coverage did that get? >> people didn't say he was too old to run. >> isn't that sexist? come on. >> yes. are you baiting me. >> yes. >> what is that called, sex baiting or sexist baiting? >> grab the bait. >> of course it's not. >> you're wrong. >> we have to get a break. send me a tweet about our show during this hour. @howardkurtz. we'll read the best ones at the end of the program. when we come back, an armed standoff of a western rancher becomes a tv drama, or was he turned into a hero? and the person who won a pulitzer thanks to ed snowden. defiance is in our bones. defiance never grows old. citracal maximum. calcium citrate plus d. 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"the new york times" keeps calling him a deadbeat over and over again. the larger issues here, the media are ignoring. why does the government own all the land in nevada? where is it written that everybody in nevada, every farmer and rancher would be a federal tenant in the first place? how did that happen? >> this notion that fox has become a champion for bundy, fair or unfair? >> sean hannity has become a champion, no doubt about it. i think he speaks to -- something erupted in the '70s and '80s in the west and it became a an important part of the coalition. now with fracing and this energy thing, the stakes are higher. the institute for energy research has a study showing there's 128 trillion, with a tt, trillion dollars and oil and natural gas under federal land. there are restrictions that bundy is up against. >> that's not driving the coverage. in your view, is fox overplaying this story. >> this is not a news story. it's being treated like it really is -- i can't even look at the war coverage or something that warrants that level of attention. it doesn't. i think that's what is the misfire here. >> it's similar to what we were talking about at the top of the show, which is race. this shows, this story about the bundys shows the divisive media culture, right? you have rachel maddow of msnbc who is saying, well, no one was shot. i bet fox news was really disappointed. that's a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to say. and the fact that she would say it just shows that she wants to do the blame game and not really cover the story. because that's the sound bite that was covered. >> but i don't think i can recall another incident where a guy who everybody basically acknowledges is a law breaker who didn't pay his grazing taxes or fees for 20 years, has been -- even if there was and it appears there was, a severe federal reaction has been made into, if not a hero, a sympathetic figure. >> the bureau of land management's attempt to manipulate the endangered specie act, to use the desert tortoise -- >> we're going to wipe out your liveliho livelihood, deal with it, he looks bad. if you say why did the government own the land and use the endangered species act to crush this guy, those are legitimate questions, too. >> bundy said he doesn't recognize the u.s. government. he only recognizes the state of the government of nevada. if a left winger would have said that, would the coverage have been different? >> of course. i don't see some people being treated as national heroes, those are people who are legitimately getting dealt a bad hand. this country is becoming more urban and racially mixed. that's who the story is targeting. it's not a major story. i think that's why this is really egregious here. >> the salt lake city tribune had a piece about western lawmakers, talk about why the governments are talking about the land. >> thank you very much for joining us this sunday. up next, if ed snowden broke the law, how did two newspapers win journalism's highest honor based on his leak? bart gelman, in a moment. ♪ [ male announcer ] when fixed income experts... ♪ ...work with equity experts... ♪ ...who work with regional experts... ♪ ...who work with portfolio management experts, that's when expertise happens. mfs. because there is no expertise without collaboration. mfs. at od, whatever business you're in, that's the business we're in. with premium service like one of the best on-time delivery records and a low claims ratio, we do whatever it takes to make your business our business. od. helping the world keep promises. making sure you pay the right price for a new car just got a whole lot easier. introducing the kelley blue book price advisor. the powerful tool that shows you what should pay. it gives you a fair purchase price that's based on what others recently for the same car and kelley blue book's trusted pricing expertise. it all adds up to the confidence that you'll get a great deal. that's just another way kbb.com helps you make a smart new car decision. bart gelman and "the washington post" won a pulitzer prize as did glenn greenwald and the guardian. their source, ed snowden was involved in a bizarre spectacle when he called into a russian tv show and asked a question of vladimir putin. >> they also found that they unreasonably intrude into the private lives of ordinary citizens, individuals who have never been suspected of any wrongdoing or criminal activity. does russia intercept were store or analyze in any way the f individuals? >> and joining me now from new york is a three-time pulitzer winner, bart gelman. welcome. >> thanks for having me. >> let me start with this fundamental question. any hesitation in the beginning in publishing nsa documents that somebody broke the law to give them to you? >> we had all kinds of hesitation about what to publish and when in terms of verifying the information, in terms of considering the security impact. the fact that our source was not allowed to give us the material -- am i supposed to pretend i don't know it? one of the most significant consequential stories of my lifetime and i certainly wouldn't hold it back because someone gave it to me without authority. no one has. scoop after scoop over the last decades has depended on people who broke the rules or broke the law in providing that information to reporters. >> it's certainly true, journalists often deal with disreputable sources. as you know, there's been criticism, you and greenwald being called snowden enablers. questions, whether the papers should have published the secrets on the theory that it hurt the country and hurt the administration's anti-terror efforts. >> a great majority of the commentators, a majority of americans think that it has strengthened the country to have this debate. the president said so himself. we have two supreme court justices who say that the legal challenges raised merit supreme court consideration. a federal judge found part of the program unconstitutional. silicon valley is pretty much on fire with criticism of what the government is doing and taking active efforts to thwart it. congress has introduced all sorts of legislation to change the boundaries between secret intelligence and public accountability. and between secret intelligence and the privacy of ordinary americans. it's hard to say that this debate shouldn't have happened. in fact, i know very few people who say it shouldn't have. >> now, you're not snowden's spokesman or his advocate but when he pulls a stunt like he did with putin, to obviously stage a bit of political theater where he criticizes the u.s. program, does that make you -- does that make you reconsider your opinion of him? >> it's completely irrelevant to the coverage, to the quality of the material that he gave me. and that he gave other journalists, what his conduct is, whether he broke the law. whether he is helping putin and i'm not his advocate. there have been a lot of pretty loose statements about putin -- about snowden as a russian agent or russian enabler, that have no supporting evidence. what he did on russian tv is open to debate but it is most often debated by people who want to deflect attention from the story that he uncovered. >> some people view this as a document dump, snowden hands the documents electronically to you and greenwald and you publish them. it is not that simple. can you talk about the challenges of turning this into a story that can be published? >> sure. he didn't want, according to him, and i didn't want, to just put it all out there. there are thousands of documents, nothing like that quantity has been made public. it's hard to understand them. it's hard to understand the significance of them and what i in "the washington post" have bee