0 prayers. great strike. let not your heart be troubled. the news is coming up next. greta van susteren is standing by to go on the record and we will see you back here tomorrow night. >> greta: tonight, how high does it go? >> we are going to do our job on the irs. we are going to do our job on doing our oversight and what we already learned is just chilling. >> stunning new details in the irs scandal. new evidence that targeting of conservative groups was not only more widespread but also included high level officials. >> i see it as the arrogance of big government. >> i have not done anything wrong. >> remember the white house always said this was just rogue agents in cincinnati. but the new evidence shows dozens of letters with a stamped signature by the woman who headed the department in question, lois lerner. >> i have not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs commissioner? >> i don't have an exact figure in mind. last year when i testified before the same house committee chaired by mr. issa was that to my recollection i only went over there once to discuss policy matters on an interagency basis. what i was getting to at the time, greta, i was concerned about the major role that the service plays in the affordable care act and the fact that it could potentially compromise the independence of the agency when you have the commissioner and his subordinates having to meet on a regular basis with officials over in that part of the government. >> greta: all right. so the fact that mr. shulman met 118 times at least that is the report we have at the white house when was the commissioner i guess part of the reason is because of the unique aspect that obamacare was being essentially implemented in part through the irs. is that a fair description of it? >> that is fair. that from top to bottom people try to do their job impartially and get to the right answer and certainly to steer clear of politics. so i'm shocked and saddened by all these events. having said that, it is very serious because, one, for the service and secondly for the whole country because the irs interacts with so many citizens and it is such a fundamental part of the government. there are three things, though, to get to your question. first i think there were some people down in cincinnati just sort of for lack of a better term lost their minds. and they used criteria to review applications for exempt status that were just wrong and they were biased. secondly, at the intermediary level where lois was supervising the exempt organizations it took two years to get this right. that is unconsciencable. there were problems spotted in 2010 and they should have been revolved promptly. what was happening in the front office there was no secret here. i was getting calls in '11 and '12 from people saying what is going on at the irs with the c 4s. i declined to answer that because i didn't know much about it. obviously it was of great interest to many people with congressional letters going in. the front office should have learned about it. shed ulmans it testimony should have been different and the record corrected as soon as he knew that his testimony was incorrect. >> greta: i think he did know. i'm looking at the testimony and he says i think there has been a lot of press about this meaning the targeting and later on said this is back and forth what happens when someone makes an application for tax extension. film' the commissioner of the irs and guy to a lunch and hear people complaining about some unfair aspects of the irs i would go back and think i would find out what in the world was going on. he admits he knew about it from the press. that is notice at the very top and you think he would have had enough sense to say what in the world is going on. i think that is his obligation. i don't think he sits and waits for it to sort of trickle up to him. >> no, i agree entirely with what you just said. when you are running a component of government like that you set some priorities. but you also, of course, respond to events. you are accountable to the congress. the congress was raising issues and frankly you are foolish if you think that the media when it raises issues isn't going to figure out what is going on. it is in your own interest and your agency's interest to get on top it and that didn't happen here. >> greta: not only your own interests. even just the job. shouldn't be just that he is worried about himself. if he hears there is nothing you can think about that is more fatal to the irs than the idea they are going about targeting people. nothing more vicious trying to scare people and their livelihoods and everything else. he heard about it in the resources and at best said it is the normal back and forth. when i read that my head almost exploded. didn't he care? >> what you do when you are in the situation congress is asking you difficult questions and you are not sure you say this is right this is an important issue let me look at it and come back to you. what was issued was an adamant denial there were now problems and in a short period of time it was known there were problems. what should have happened there, greta, the record should have one corrected. the idea there was an ig audit underway, be again, as russell george said not an investigation. that does not excuse inaction by the irs because i can just tell you if you don't get into managing the agency in the area that gao have under audit they have 20 or 30 audits underway at any given point in time. you are not the going to be doing your job as you said. they should have taken a full hand on this. >> greta: i'm looking at mr. shulman's answer and he says he is asked about the political targeting of certain groups with political leanings. he says yes there has been a lot of press about it and also says that is the sort of normal back and forth that happens with the irs and goes on to say there is absolutely no targeting. nothing could be dumber or wrong or more incorrect than he said. that is what he was doing to a lot of americans as the head guy. he can't dump it off on some rogue employees in cincinnati. it went all the way to the top. >> there were problems at the bottom. at the intermediary level and problems at the top. what disappoints me, greta, and you may remember this, we had an active program in 2004 and 2006 that i launched to look at churches and charities accused of politicking in terms of the '04 and '06 election cycle. c about 3s this revolved around mostly. can't help a candidate or oppose a candidate. we set up a unit within tege the governmental tax exempt group. it was out of dallas. it wasn't at the front end of the process where the people are doing the front work in cincinnati looking at the applications if you will. we did it and did it quickly and right before the election the naacp launched a broad site saying that we were trying to quash the black vote. i called up the same russell george and said russell, take a look at this. i think we done it correctly. nobody will believe, though, that we did. he did an audit on this, the same thing he did on the recent problem and came back in february of 2005 and said the service could have moved quicker here and could have had better guidance but in fact there was no bias and it was balanced as to how they selected organization o the grounds for follow-up. i don't get it because i know the service can do this correctly. they did when we did the work in '04 and '06. >> greta: i would say that the commissioner did it by asking for the investigation. i don't see that happening here with this one. anyway. thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> greta: the irs in very hot water with many americans tonight and now the same irs is going to play an important role in implementing obama care. former senator jim demint is not happy about that one and joins us. nice to see you, senator. >> thank you, greta. >> greta: i know you don't like obamacare and would like to see it repealed. tell me the relationship obamacare to the irs. any o the ground way out -- anyway out of that one? >> we had a chance to see how the irs can work. they are too big and the code is so complicated and gives them so much room for corruption. >> greta: that is a good excuse. i think it is worse than that but go ahead. >> it is much worse but obamacare puts the irs on rids.stair opens the door for the irs to come into all of our lives. every business life. you have over 2,000 new irs employees to implement obamacare. 18 new taxes or penalties that have to be looked that. over 800 billion north dakota revenue. for lower or middle income americans who will now have the irs looking at their income every year with us the subsidies in the irs depend on the income being at a certain level and then the irs shares that with hhs and other agencies involve that might be involved with implementing it. it is a nightmare are when you look at the irs and what they can be capable of and obamacare opens the door so much wider for them. >> greta: we can agree they are not going to be looking and recording whether you got a colonoscopy or not. >> we don't know what it is going to lead to. >> greta: as it is written now a bill collector anded a best an organization to unwielding as to likely be incompetent and now might be corrupt at certain levels. >> obama has a committee decided what they will pay for. because money will increasingly run short they will be looking into whether things should be paid for. obamacare will tax you if you don't buy health insurance and it will tax you if you do buy certain levels as far as the expense. so i think it is going to affect almost every american from an expense standpoint but also additional vulnerability. i think businesses are seeing this as they get a grasp on what obamacare can do to their business the irs is likely to close a lot of businesses down just freezing their assets and studying all aspects of their business to find out if they are doing this correctly. >> greta: you talk about some of the organizational aspect and how the irs, you know, it is so complicated and their taxes and how you say that it may impair business or impede business. that doesn't even take into account there are actually people in there frankly corrupt and want to make life miserable for some. we are seeing some people for whatever reason decided they are delegate to bevy showers and targeting people. >> we know they are targeting people and this administration has been trying to get their hands on people who contribute to certain conservative causes in. so bills that they have tried to pass. as a small businessman this scares me to death of what the irs could do. they don't have to be right. they don't have to have anything on you but you can basically shut your business down looking into all spects of this obamacare. >> greta: and usually if you challenge a tax of the irs you have to pay it first in order to be able to challenge it. that is the other ugly think, to pay a tax and then get to challenge. can't just say i'm not paying it. >> they can freeze your bank accounts and do a lot of things. they have too much power. they are obviously arrogant. a big streak of corruption. obamacare does open this wide up. i hope every american wakes up and say if you like what you saw from the irs the last few weeks you are going to love obamacare. >> greta: i'm deeply troubled when mr. shulman when was head of the irs knew about it and looked the other way. nice to see you. how is the new job? good? >> great. >> greta: nice to see you. the tea party has its own target. they slapped the irs and attorney general holder and the treasury secretary with a lawsuit. the northeast tarrant county texas tea party is joining in the suit. nice to see you. >> good to be here. >> greta: you filed suit. what provoked you to file a lawsuit against so many of the members of the obama administration and the irs? >> northeast tarrant tea party is one of the ten that have not received status so we have been waiting since fall of 2010 and still have heard nothing. >> greta: you set a deadline of last friday. what was that deadline all about? >> we sort of gave the irs an ultimatum. said if we don't have a response by friday of last week we were going to see the irs and being as arrogant as they are, they didn't respond. we heard are nothing. so today we filed a lawsuit not just against the irs but also against lois lerner, steven miller and a handful of other key players. >> greta: were you asking them to respond to the original fall of 2011 when you asked for tax exempt when you first applied? >> that was fall of when we first are applied. >> greta: fall of what? >> 2010. >> greta: okay. >> we didn't hear anything until february of 2012 and now are finding out that lois and stevens both knew what was going on at that point at least as of january of 2012 and still did nothing. against the arrogance is just all over the place. >> greta: when did you give them the ultimatum they had to respond to you by last friday or you would file suit? when did you give them that ultimatum. >> the monday prior. all the news came out over the weekend and i believe it was the monday after that. >> greta: were you ask just to say yes, no, let us know? >> exactly. >> is that owl you wanted was an answer? >> right. we just wanted a yes or a no. can we have the 501-c (4 current or not? >> had you supplied all of the documents -- >> the information they were requesting was a violation of privacy. we would never do that to the tea party members jet do you have an idea when your organization was is targeted? >> i would like to think it is because we are one of the best tea parties out there. you and i spoke last week sometime about -- you know, it is anybody's guess why they would have targeted us specifically. >> greta: have you felt intimidated at all or felt more emboldened by this? >> it was probably more intimidating at first. you know, we wanted to maybe withdraw our application or just give up. but as the days go by and we see how arrogant they are and we are empowered by people, you know, speaking up and cheering us on and everybody is on the same side. we all are appalled at what they are doing and we all need to hold them accountable. i don't know if you saw jay sekulow said in one of his quotes today if the obama administration is not going to protect the constitution then we will. and that is exactly how northeast tarrant tea party feels. if no one else is going to do it we sure as heck are going to be out there and protect the constitution. that is why we are here. >> greta: thanks for joining us. 25 tea parties joined in a suit filed in u.s. district kortright here in washington, d.c. nice to see you. come back and keep us updated. >> will do that. thank you, greta. >> greta: we he want to know what you think. go to gretawire.com .com and answer this go to gretawire.com right now and vote. straight ahead. how high up does the irs scandal go? tonight, new evidence that should make lois lerner worried. the latest is next. house companies on a new you mission. they want to know did attorney general holder mislead, even lie to congress. you will hear what the house judiciary committee will do from a member of the committee coming up. plus, congressman jason chaffetz admitting he is nervous about giving a big speech. what gets him so rattled? we admit this is a bit nerve rattling. we will tell you, coming up. as your life changes, fidelity is there r your personal economy, helping you readjust along the way, refocus as careers change and kids head off to college, and revisit your investments as retirement gets closer. wherever you are today, fidelity's guidance can help you fine-tune your personal economy. start today with a free one-on-one review of your retirement plan. make a wish! i wish we could lie here forever. i wish this test drive was over, so we could head back to the dealership. 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