you have no track record on that, that we can trust thaw you're going to do that. >> this is something that was crafted for massachusetts. it would be wrong to adopt this as a nation. it's not -- >> you're shaking your head. that happens to be -- >> you're allowing the -- you're allowed -- >> you had your chance, let me speak. rich? >> whether you throw out the existing code and put in our plan, you're still going to pay that. that's apples and oranges. >> i like your response, herman, but person by person, return by return, middle income people see higher taxes on your plan. the idea that you stand before us and talk about that you're strong on immigration is on its face the height of hypocrisy. >> you say you knew -- >> please -- are you going to keep talking or let me finish with what i had to say? look, rick, i -- >> i follow the rules. >> this has been a last couple of tough debates for rick, and i understand that, so you're going to get testy bill: there is a lot more of that to go through over the next two hours. martha: absolutely. bill: our own referee is carl cameron, he was up late last night in vegas with us. i want to start with rick perry. he came out swinging. what was his strategy going into -- going into the night? error reporter he had to be a-- had to be the aggressor, he wanted his momentum restored after the last couple of months and the perry believes that romney is thin-skinned and highly vulnerable and rick perry's strength is as a very aggressive candidate. so perry attacked, where roy is weak, and that's what we saw last night. the attack on illegal immigration stems from what was a published story, in fact, five years ago, that when romney was living in massachusetts he hired a lawn care company that had hired illegal aliens unbee knownst to him, that's what caused this real spark of perry's aggression last night. >> you stood here in front of the american people and did not tell the truth, that you had illegals working on your property, and the newspaper came to you and brought it to your attention and still a year later had those individuals working for you. the idea that you can sit here and talk about any of us having immigration issues is beyond me. >> you have a problem with allowing someone to finish speaking, and i suggest that if you want to become president of the united states, you got to let both people speak, so first, let me speak. >> romney seemed a little flustered while he was obviously trying to put perry down, and sort of silence the interruptions. for mr. romney, being the center of attention reasserts he's the frontrunner because he did take most of the attacks last night, but because perry was so much the aggressor it's beginning to look more like that 2-person race is resuming. bill: now you have perry and romney. what about her main cain? because he was facing a lot of criticism coming into last night. how much heat did he take when it comes to 999 and defending that economic plan, carl? >> reporter: he took a lot of it, bill. there was criticism from virtually all of his rivals, one by one, they all went after his 999 plan, call it -- calling it impractical, something that couldn't be implemented or pounding it because it includes a national tax and they disagreed with that. even mitt romney weighed in on the 999 plan and talked about his own analysis of it, saying it would ultimately raise taxes on lower income and middle income taxpayers. for herman cain, it was clearly a sign that he remains competitive, because so much attention was given to his 999 plan, but it was not the type of breakout performance he had in the last couple. there is a sense among the campaigns, as well as a lot of their supporters, that the romney-perry battle is now again the marquee bout in vegas and across the country, it's back to that whole 2-man race dynamic that the other candidates so hate us talking about. bill: back in the ring they go. thank you toeing -- for setting the table. martha: so much to talk about this morning with all of this. with all that fighting we saw last night, former house speaker newt gingrich at times sort of tried to function as a peacemaker among the group. he told the candidates at one point, settle down a little bit. take look. >> let me point out a second that maximizing bickering is probably not the road to the white house, and the technique you used maximizes going back and forth, over and over again. martha: there we go ahead, the analysis of newt gingrich of the way things were run and most of that bickering as you saw last night, definitely involved going after mitt romney and him fighting back. we're going to talk to andrea saul, his press secretary, we'll see what the talk is within the romney camp this morning about how all of that really went for him. bill: we mentioned so much to go through today. we are going to hear from the candidates themselves over the next two hours, three to be precise, ron paul is here to talk about his plan to cut a trillion dollars from the federal budget, michele bachmann, live on our impassioned plea to mothers last night, remember, she said moms toward the end of that debate, and the one candidate who was not there, jon huntsman skipped it. you'll find out why he was a no show and why he calls it a game show last night. he wasn't in nevada, he was in new hampshire. all that coming up. martha: that was a critical decision for him. we're going to talk to him about whether or not he thinks it was a wise one at this point and what he thinks about his standing in the polls this morning. before taking aim at mitt, the candidates focus on the surging herman cain who had a huge week over the course of the last seven days, he's a new top tier candidate as of about a week or so ago, the former businessman was trying to fend off the attacks on his proposed 999 plan. here's a sample of that. >> they're wrong about it being a value added tax. we simply remove the hidden taxes that are in goods and services with our plan, and replace it with a single 9 percent. i invite every family to do your own calculations with that arithmetic. >> i don't think so, her main. it's not going to fly. >> 84 percent of americans would pay more taxes under his plan. >> it is a regressive tax. so it's very, very dangerous n. that it will raise more revenues. >> ultimately, that becomes a value added tax. it's a hidden tax. martha: all right. so that's just a chunk of the back and forth on all of that. what's the truth here? what would this plan actually mean for americans? it would scrap the current tax stevment that's why he talked about apples and oranges, he says we're not talking about what's already there. then it would replace it with a 9 percent corporate tax rate, a 9 percent personal income tax rate and a 9 percent federal sales tax. now, that plan ultimately calls for replacing the individual and corporate income taxes down the road in the second stage of all of this, with a so-called fair tax. so let's bring in stu varney, our good buddy to help sort this out for us. do the other candidates, are they right that it would be on top of, for instance, the state sales tax? >> yes. that is that is correct. -- that is correct. look, if you ask the question would more people pay more in tax under the 999 plan, the answer is yes. at the moment, half of those people who work pay no federal income tax at all. bring in 999, and those people would be caught, certainly by the 9 percent consumption or sales tax, and maybe also by the 9 percent income tax, depending upon where the cutoff was. now, that is a political profnlt whenever you extend the tax base, and more people pay more in tax, that is a different in selling that politically. but it has economic advantages, in that the 999 plan retains incentives for people that go out and make more money, know exactly what you're going to pay in tax, and also, it's very easy to understand. everybody knows what 999 is, in contrast to the rather more complicated plans from some of the other candidates. martha: one of the -- one of the points that he tried to get across at one point, stuart, was that if corporations, a -- corporations, some who pay zero percent tax would actually start paying 9 percent tax, and that many of the taxes that create those huge fat books of tax regulations and laws wouldn't exist anymore, and his -- this is the one that's a little bit difficult to see happening, but that ultimately, it would cost price of goods in this country to go down because those taxes that the companies are paying would not be passed on to the consume every. does that hold water with you? >> that's a tough one to actually work through. would that really happen. the taxes on manufacturers and service providers which are paid now, according to herman cain, would be wiped away, replaced with a simple 9 percent tax at the point of consumption. well, would the manufacturers and service providers eat that, the taxes, or would they pass along the lower taxes. you know, would they do that, is that a realistic thing to expect. martha: if the competition started to do it. but we will see. stuart, thank you. really interesting back and forth on that 999 last night. bill: got some breaking news out of ohio. police are shooting to kill, as they hunt down more than a dozen dangerous animals now on the loose. these are bears and lions and tigers. in zanesville, they found the other than of 40 exotic pets dead in his home and four different school district versus closed and police are warning people to stay inside there. >> nobody really knows what an animal out of a caged area would do. >> on the property, there were leopards, lions, and tiger, mountain lions, but that's a different species of cat, wolves, grizzly bears and black cares. >> school is canceled for the day. make sure your kids are not out, make sure they're not in the wooded areas and make sure they're familiar with their surroundings. bill: the sun is just up there in east central ohio. that officer, by the way, is going to join us next hour, and then police hold a news conference at 10:00 eastern time, that's about 45 minutes from now. we'll bring you information as we get it. martha: caution, exotic animal, that doesn't happen every day. we also want to get thank you, fox news alert, we're just getting wind of coming out of texas. just moments ago, there are reports of a potential bomb scare and a terror alert after an attempted break-in at the san antonio courthouse. reports that two men tried to break into the courthouse, both described as french moroccan muslim, that's the description that has just come across on these two suspects. we're also hearing that investigators found documents and photos of shopping malls and courthouses and other public buildings in the area. so you can see why this situation is raising serious concerns this morning about possible terrorism. so we're going to keep a close eye on that,gate you more details on that one. bill: we told you things are hopping and they are. those are some of the stories we're watching now. his own administration says it is unsustainable but only days after drop ago major part of the health care law, president obama says he wants it back in. in a moment we'll talk to a senator who calls the move a budget gimmick. martha: and the president embracing the wall street protests, saying that they are just like the tea party in many ways. we're going to debate that, as mitt romney says it's the president's fault that our economy is in such bad shape. here's a piece of that from last night. >> we can spend our time talking about what happened three years ago and what the cause was of our collapse but let's talk about what's happened over the last three years. we've had a president responsible for this economy for the last three years, and he's failed us. martha: you're going to see amazing pictures of a rescue of a child trapped in a -- trapped in a well. look at these picture the, this little boy fell all wait down that well. he was playing with friends. this happened in china. he was trapped down there. look at that little boy, down there for more than an hour with 18 inches of breathing room and the rescuers eventually were able to get him up, into the arms of his grateful family. look at that little sweetheart. we don't know. apparently -- he looks to be fine, they're checking him out at the hospital now. no word on his condition. >> there's a pretty good support up here for getting rid of omabacare because it's a democratic proposal, and we want to opt out. i think we'd all agree on this. but if you want better competition and better health care, you should allow the american people to opt out of government medicine. bill: well, president obama's health care overhaul was under fire again last night and now there's new fallout after the president says he wants to keep a big part of that new law, even though his administration says it's financially unsustainable. republican senatorgan barrasso is an orthopedic surgeon, and sir, thank you for being back. you put out a report with very strong language. you say the white house knew about this all along, this long term insurance plan that was in the health care law, you called it a budget gimmick. how so? >> well, they spengsly knew this and intentionally misled the american people to say that this health care law was going to pay for itself. it was absolutely one of their bookkeeping tricks that they used and this is unaffordable, it's unsustainable, but it just shows this health care law is unraveling, it's imploding, it's falling apart piece by piece. bill: how can you prove that they knew this the entire time, sir? >> well, you know, even kent conrad, a democrat on the senate floor, he said that this way, this scheme, where they were going to collect money for the first five years and not pay out anything, was -- he said it was like a ponzi scheme that even bernie madoff would be proud of. people knew from day one. bill: who knew? >> that this was going to -- i think everyone thinking member of the united states senate knew that this was a budget trick that they could use to try to sell the american people a health care law that i believe is bad for patients, bad for providers, the nurses and doctors who take care of those patients, and bad for our taxpayers. bill: you're charging that they were cooking the books. >> absolutely. bill: they're going to come to you and say how do you prove it, and how do you prove it? >> it's now taken the department of health and human services almost 19 month toss look at this and come to the same conclusion. i think they knew it all along. but the president, rather than to admit that he was wrong, is now saying he wants to go ahead with this. but just like his bus bor -- bus tour, he has a so-called jobs plan, and he says it's paid for. i really have great concerns about anything he says about how the money works, because i think that he continues to lead this country further and further into debt with his polices, which have been very bad for our economy. bill: kathleen sebelius says it's out, the white house, as you referred to -- that the white house is hedging on this. is it in or is it out? >> it needs to be out, and i am ready to vote to repeal it. we have a bill in the house, a bill in the senate. it's actually a bipartisan bill in the house, to repeal this entire portion of the health care law. but i want to repeal the entire health care law. i've introduced legislation to let everyone opt out, to let everyone have a waiver from the health care law so that they don't have to live under the mandates of this obama health care law. bill: one more thing, if the long term insurance clause that we're discussing today, it's known by the acronym class, if that is out, what does it do to the overall law? >> well, i still think the overall law is unconstitutional. i don't think that this government has a right to come into your home and tell you you have to buy a product, and the supreme court will be making a decision about that. >> bill: understood, but in the short term, on this particular provision, if it's not in there, how does it affect the law? >> the law still stands. i want to take this entire law apart and if i have to do it piece by piece, bill, that's what i'm going to continue to work on. bill: senator, thank you for your time, the republican from wyoming. >> thank you. bill: senator barrasso, thanks. martha: two of the top united states banks are announcing new rounds of trouble. they're losing money, they are going to cut more jobs. what this really means for where we are headed. bill: also new information this morning. is there a possible break in the case of missing 11 month old lisa irwin? what a new police search warrant could mean for this case. >> two weeks ago you had a normal life. >> yeah. well, yeah. >> and how have things changed since then? >> everything has changed. we don't have her. so everything is different. sorry. bill: hear can cain suggested we build an electric fence along the u.s. border surging -- discouraging illegal immigration out of mexico, he later said he was kidding around, just a joke but last night, he made no apologies about making the law tougher. >> i don't apologize at all for want to go protect the american citizens and to protect our agents on the border. >> we must shut the back door so people can come in the front door. secondly, promote the existing path of citizenship to cleaning up the bureaucracy in washington, d.c. thirdly, enforce the laws, the immigration laws that are already on the book, empower the states to do what the federal government is not doing in terms of enforcing those laws. bill: cain also saying his plan might also require an increased number of boots on the ground, be it mexico, california, texas. martha: back to that in a moment. first we want to tell but this. america's financial powerhouses, feeling the pinch once again of this weak economy. bank of america, losing its title as biggest u.s. bank by assets. meanwhile, goldman sachs reporting a nearly $430 million loss in the third quarter. that is a major blow to that investment bank. cheryl casone joins me. what does this means, the banks had been fairly healthy through the course of this since 2008. are we headed in that direction again? >> there is a fear certainly that u.s. banks are going to be back into some type of crisis mode as we were back in 2008. you mentioned the goldman sachs loss, martha, they made $1.9 billion in the same quarter a year ago, 2010. we have not seen goldman sachs have a loss like this since the fall of 2008, the same time frame when lehman brothers was bankrupt, so that's one concern on the investment banking side. then you mentioned bank of america, the ceo, brian moynahan saying i need to scale back, they're laying 30,000 people off, because they don't want to be so big and have so much risk on the books, and they've got a lot of mortgage problems as well. we're still talking about mortgage, fear, talking about credit and add europe into the mix and it's a toxic soup that's being created right now. martha: some of these moves may be, as he says, to sort of get them letle lean, so they can deal with the tough times to come. but what about the regulations they're dealing with? and they've got more that will be implemented. are those going to hurt these big institutions? >> that's the big question now. you've got the volcker rule, how is that going to be imle minuted, what does that look like, named after paul volcker and dodd-frank, all these to protect the consumer, to make sure if you're going to be a bank backed by the fdic you're not going to be putting taxpayer money at risk and that's fine and good, but the fear is that's going to eat into the revenues even more of the banks and at the end of the day, they are profit house, th