week. oprah's chef teaches inner city kids how to take care of themselves. all right now on "fox news sunday." hello again from fox news in washington. with the mid term campaign intensifying we asked two big thinkers to discuss it. from vermont, howard dean, former governor and chair of the democratic party. and here in studio, former house speaker newt gingrich. and gentlemen, welcome back to "fox news sunday." >> good to be with you. >> chris: let's start with the case of shirley sherrod. the department of agriculture official who was forced to resign because the obama administration mistakenly thought that she mad made racial comments. speaker gingrich, after she quit monday, you said this -- >> i often disagree with this administration. but firing her after that kind of viciously racist attitude was exactly the right thing to do. and the fact that we have to be genuinely color blind, you know, you can't be a black racist any more than you can be a white racist. >> chris: speaker, was that irresponsible, calling her viciously racist based on an internet clip that had been taken out of context? >> remember, i was co operatinn the context of the secretary of agriculture having summarily fired her and therefore there was no reason to disbelieve the clip and what you see was one more example of the obama administration's continuing incompetentence. apparently she didn't even get the courtesy of a chance to talk to the secretary of agriculture, who i suspect fired her under pressure from the white house. and she says she was told that they were firing her under pressure from the white house. so my comments were in the context of a clip which had been validated by the secretary of agriculture who had fired her. clearly when you look at the complete clip and when you look at the background information and when you listen to the white farmers say she had actually been very helpful, i think it is a fair case to be made that this administration acted with destructive irresponsibility in the way that they fired her. >> chris: in fairness, this is not the first time you have done it. last year when the nomination of sonia sotomayor to the supreme court came up and the comments about the wise latina woman comments were released you tweeted this -- white man racist nominee would be forced to withdraw, latino woman racist should also withdraw. you later apologized but again why so quick -- >> what i said -- >> chris: let me finish. why so quick to call people racist? >> what i said about sotomayor still stands. which was the statements she made were clearly racist. i have no idea in her heart whether she is a racist. you go back and look at her exact quotes and they were quotes if you put in white male instead of latina you would absolutely say that was racist. when you look at what happened the other night, i was reacting directly to somebody who had been fired by the white house and the secretary of agriculture based on a clip which had been shown. and my point is one that you would agree with which is there it no room in america for a black racist or latino or white racist or asian racist or native american racist. we are other color blind or we are not color blind. >> chris: let me bring in governor dean. >> let's just -- >> chris: go ahead, shirr. >> i don't think newt gingrich is not a racist and you are not a racist but fox news did something that was racist. they had an obligation to find out what was really in the clip. they have been pushing a theme of black racism with the phoney black panther crap and this business and sotomayor and all this other stuff. i think you got to be very -- the tea party called out their racist fringe and i think the republican party has to stop appealing to its racist fringe and fox news is what did that. you put that on. >> chris: governor, i know facts are inconvenient things, but let's try to deal with the facts. the fact is that the obama administration fired or forced shirley sherrod to quit before her name had ever been mentioned on fox news channel. did you know that, sir? >> i -- what i do know is that video -- >> chris: did you know that, that her name, did you know that she was fired before her name was ever mentioned on the fox news channel? >> what about the video? where did that play? what about the incomplete video? >> chris: the video had never played on the fox news channel before the white house fired her. it was on andrew brightbart, big government.com. we are not sponsible for them. i agree it was out of context but it wasn't on fox news so maybe you shouldn't be using racist phrase either. >> and it was about to go on glenn beck which is what the administration was afraid of. i don't think she should have been fired su summarily and wet to stop being afraid of glenn beck and the racist regime of the republican party. i don't know if ever there was a clip of the white farmer saying this woman helped us save her farm. was that ever on fox news? >> i don't know because i wasn't covering that part of the story. we certainly reported that part of the story. whether he was willing to appear, i haven't seen the white farmer. i have seen his wife but i haven't seen him anywhere but that may be a mistake on my part. let's get back to what you just said. the obama administration fired her for fear, not the reality but the fear that she was going to appear on glenn beck. >> right. >> is that what barack obama campaigned for when said he was going to change the 24/7 media cycle? >> i think that is wrong. as you know, i made a career standing up to that kind of stuff and i think that was a mistake on the obama administration. i'm not going to let the right wing press off the hook on this. >> chris: what are the facts here, sir? the facts are her name had never been mentioned on the fox news channel until -- explain to me, why do you think the obama administration, why do you think -- let me finish. >> and then, chris. >> chris: let me ask my question and then you can answer. we do you think the obama white house administration fired her before her name ever appeared on fox news? >> did fox news play the clip that turned out to be inaccurate? >> chris: after she was fired. >> right. i don't think it matters whether it was before or after. the question is you played it. you didn't do your job, not you personally of course, but the people who chose to play the clip and there has been an ongoing theme about racism in america. it has no place in america whether it is black, white or anything else. continuing to cater to the theme of minority racism and stressing comments like this, some of which are taken out of context does not help the country knit itself together. >> i want to point out the naacp operating off the same clip and the same action by the secretary of agriculture also agreed. >> i agree and that was wrong as well. >> and they condemned the new black panthers as racist organization. >> i agree. i have on occasion sidedded with the naacpizations. if they are this afraid of glenn beck how do they deal with the iranians? >> there may be similarities. >> how do they deal with the real world if they are that frightened by a tv show? >> chris: i think this goes to a bi bigger issue. you said you elected president obama, a democratic congress and a democratic senate and now it is time for them to behave like democrats if they want to get reelected. they have foregotten where they came from. question, have the democrats been too timid? >> the healthcare thing is my largest concern although that is sort of over and done with and we have to make what we have work but that was a disappointment for me. financial reforms was good, i mean there was definitely some good stuff in there. there were some things that i thought got taken out at the last minute there were some concern. i think the major problem here is that people really wanted change. you have got, for example, lobbyists who then went -- i mean people who work for major insurance company, health insurance companies that ended up as chiefs of staff of people who had a key role in writing the health insurance bill. that kind of stuff is not supposed to be going on with the new -- the new election that we -- the new regime, the new administration, so forth and so on. what we -- all we really want i think from the so-called democratic wing of the democratic party is really to stand up for what we believe in. there is a congressman in virginia who is going have a tough time getting reelected, tom periello, very conservative district. replaced a very conservative republican. i think he is going to reelected by just a hair. why, because he practices something called conviction politics. he is down explaining to everybody in his district why he voted for the healthcare bill and why he thinks it is going to be good. he is not running away from anything. not afraid of glenn beck and not afraid of the right and that is what we have to have some of in this party. >> chris: let's talk about voters number one concern and that is clearly the jobs and the economy. speaker gingrich, why hasn't the economy bounced back nearly as much as the obama white house said it would they they pushed through the $862 billion stimulus package and should the bush tax cuts for the wealthy be allowed to expire, especially at a time when the economy is still so fragile? >> let me say, first of all, that the obama administration apparently announced on friday that they expect unemployment for all of next year to be at 9%. americans should be very concerned about this. this is the first time since the great depression we have had this level of unemployment continuing for more than a year. i think it is because you have job-killing policies. and this is where governor dean and i deeply disagree. i think the stimulus package was fundamentally wrong because trickle down bureaucracy doesn't work. the tack increases are going to further depress the economy. the tax increases and regulations in the financial reform bill will further repress the economy. i think that the proposal that they raise taxes next year. the safest thing for america would be to have a provision passed this fall that said no tax increase of any kind in 2011. and the fact is, everywhere i go and i have been in ten states in the last 14 days, business people say to me over and over again, i will create no new jobs in this environment because the uncertainty is too frightening. >> chris: you are saying extend all the bush tax cuts. >> i would simply say no tax increase next year. keep current law as it is. extend no tax -- have no tax increase next year and look at congressman jordan's five tax cuts because we are stuck at 9.5 or 9% unemployment and we are in danger of dropping to 12 as much as we are of rising to 8. >> chris: governor dean, why hasn't the recovery been stronger and what about the bush tax cuts for the wealthy? >> i think the recovery hasn't been stronger because the hole that was dug for president obama by the bush administration was far worse than anybody could imagine. i don't think wall street has been doing what they are supposed to be doing. they are not allocating capital and this is still going on today. when you are making your money pushing paper around when you should be making money by investing venture capital in various job creating things that makes it much harder to recover. i do disagree with newt for two reasons. i think the stadium lucian stie good and the cbo thinks so also. here is why i disagree on the tax issue. newt and i would agree that the deficit is a huge problem and we cannot continue with deficits in the trillion dollars range, it is just not doability. so if you are going to fix the deficit, everybody is going to have to pay something. we can't as democrats go out and talk about entitlements if people who are making $250,000 a year are getting tax cuts. that makes no sense at all. we are all in this together. everybody has to put something on the table. >> chris: okay. >> i don't believe for a moment, i don't believe for a moment that going back to where bill clinton's tax rates were for people who make over $250,000 a year is going hurt the economy at all. >> chris: we are running out of time. a couple of minutes left and i want to get into two more issues. first of all, charlie rangel. governor dean, should congressman rangel cut a deal with the house ethics committee to spare democrats the spectacle of a public trial a couple of months before the mid term elections. >> i don't get into that. charlie has run afoul of the ethics committee. he is owed a fair process. if he wants to cut a deal, that is his business. but this process has to work and i'm proud to say the process is working. he did some things that look like they ought to get him thrown out of congress and if it turns out he did them he is going to get thrown out of congress and i think that is the way the process is supposed to work. >> chris: let me pick up that point. there is talk speaker gingrich that they may work out a deal that would be short from his expulsion from congress. >> he has every right to defend himself. if he believes he is genuinely innocent he ought to fight. if he believes and his attorneys believe he is guilty, it is to his interest and the party interest to cut a deal. once these kind of things become public it gets harder and harder and fits patterns that go back to a number of other members. >> chris: finally, about a minute left, speaker gingrich. you said the other day you have "never been this serious about running for president in 2012 and you will make a decision shortly after the mid terms february or march of next year." having gone through this with you in 2008 and i say this respectfully, why shouldn't we question whether you are playing the candidate card so that you can get more attention for your views. >> i think you can assume that up until february or march. if i don't run you will be able to say see, i told you. if i do run you will go wow, this time it was real. that is a decision i will make in february or march and i'm actually not very much concerned about it. >> chris: but are you playing the cards so you can get -- >> no, seriously, calista and i are seriously looking and at your family looking at what it would take. i have talked to howard about it. it is a deep commitment and so ababsorbing. >> let me put in a good word for newt gingrich here. >> chris: that is the kiss of death. >> i'm korean peninsulaous. imserious. newt has a ton of ideas to move the country forward and he did when was speaker. there are no ideas in the republican party in congress. they are the party of no and they desperately need intellectual leadership and whatever you think of newt gingrich he can supply intellectual leadership. i hope he does run. >> i think there is a compliment there. >> i don't think i could survive it in the primaries. here is my opponent's clip in the primaries. >> chris: thanks for coming up. up next, the fallout over shirley sherrod. what does it say about race and politics in america? we'll have the reverend jesse jackson, after this break. >> chris: with race and politics back in the news we invited jesse jackson to screen us from chicago. welcome back to "fox news sunday." >> are we going to discuss the newt gingrich palin ticket or discuss sherrod? >> chris: i think we will talk about sherrod. we will have you back to talk about the palin gingrich ticket. why do you think the obama administration made such a rush to judgment of shirley sherrod? >> the idea of an avalanche of the news media accusing them of being racist. the naacp challenged the tee party and they put some members out and then that was targeted to prove that blacks were as racist as whites. the level of american dialogue. and, of course, when the news story broke by brightbart it frightened the white house. they didn't want to be accused of being racist and they ignored due process and they were wrong in overreacting. >> chris: should a white house be frightened of a clip that was on a conservative website? >> well, you can be. in this age of social media, i thought when newt tried to equate this with iran was really a false comparison. if you are about to be hit by an avalanche of news media criticism and you have no moral foundation it is about to buckle. and that is why the white house apologized and gibbs and the president and the secretary because they were wrong in overreacting but that was the basis of the reaction. i would think that in days to come, the idea of characteristic assassination on the media whether it is by blogging or but youtube. we see that as what bart did was morally wrong and created an ugly political climate. >> reverend jackson, the fact is the white house or the administration fired shirley sherrod before her name ever appeared on fox news channel or to my knowledge on any of the other cable channels. they fired her for fear. i thought this president came in to try to change the culture in washington? >> there is a new social media culture, too. bart is not just a guy. he has a con glomerate of blogs and once he unleashed his blog which was about to go on huffington post and other blogs, moving its way towards fox news, sometime before the rain actually falls, clouds form. there is a fear factor. one that might be seen as positive and uplifting or one runs from being attacked and this is what they did really, they were wrong. >> chris: how do you explain the naacp praising sherrod's resignation based on a clip that ran as you say on a conservative website when they had access to her entire 43 minute speech? in fact, she had made it before an naacp meeting. >> well, again, ben jealous apollized and made an adjustment. you see a calamity of errors here. what i find interesting, chris, just this past thursday the black farmers got a $1.2 billion settlement. the indians $1.3 million settlement for race discrimination. we have not discussed all the facts that the senate would not honor the settlement of 100,000 black farmers get no press and native americans get no press. we are sill arguing about how fast or slow the white house reacted. also, the smoothest testimony, this white family farmer, ellouise and mr. spooner, i felt their stepping up to the plate in alliance with sherrod was a great news story that none of us should miss. >> chris: i agree with that and we reported that they had backed her. let me ask you a bigger question. do you think that that administration has been too timid in taking on conservatives? too concerned about being branded as liberal? >> well, they are attacked for being liberal, in fact. i mean you fight for a healthcare bill to cover all americans and leave none behind. it is attacked as being a race appeal, which is not true. but then i it is prime in the media as true. that is an ugly climate. at some point in time, however, the administration must simply do something as basic as simply enforce the law. community reinvestment. eeoc emplies enforce the law and if it comes back to take the hit. robert kennedy had to take that hit. lyndon johnson had to take that hit. truman had to take that hit. you cannot get around to committing to enforcing racial justice and gender equality. >> speaking of racial justice it seemed this week that the white house went to some lengths to keep the president out of another conversation about race. is that a mistake? >> well, they are trying to avoid it but it is unavoidable. the issue, when i went to jail this year along with sherrod, 60 years ago, seeking access to public accommodations. we couldn't use the hotel, motel, park, library. now, we are not separated in the hallways is now there are these kids with a new conversation. the university of georgia plays georgia tech it is uniform color versus skin color. we have overcome that level of racial fear. on the other hand, you look at income gap or you look at wealth gap. infant blacks and infant mortality and home foreclosures. the summit with the president of barack obama, that same day, the attorney general from illinois filed a lawsuit. a major bank targeted blacks and browns who make. >> chris: reverend jackson. >> hear me now. >> chris: we are running out of time and i want to ask you two more questions if i may, sir. the first is go the question of race. you were involved in an incident recently and some say that you played the race card recently. it all came out when the owner of the cleveland cavaliers wrote an open letter after lebron james announced he was leaving the team in which ensate this about james' leaving. he called the decision a shameful display of selfishness and betrayal of one of our very own. and here is how you responded. he speaks as an owner of lebron, not the owner of the cleveland cavaliers. hoshis feelings personify a sle master mentality and he sees lebron as a runaway slave. why make it about race? couldn't this just have been about the owner of a team and a fan who was terribly disappointed about the decision? >> he went beyond that. here is the guy who owns the fat head and reduced it from $99 to 17.1. here is the guy who bought casino licenses and he expected lebron to fill up the stadium and the casino. here is a guy that is about to get 0% investors from china to expanded his empire. >> chris: don't you think he would have been just as upset if lebron james were a white star? >> i don't know. what i do know is that he said lebron quite five times. quitting is very close to -- why would the guy without a contract be attacked in this way by the owner of a team? it is like his major source of revenue got away. to me it looked like dred scott. that is my orientation. gibbs was wronge was wrong and and any other owner who does that to a player should face the consequences. it was really wrong. >> chris: we have less than a minute left. should charlie rangel make a deal to get the house de democs off the hook and avoid the spectacle of a public trial? >> if he feels he is innocent and he feels i will vindicate himself, he may want to go through the due process route or may make a political decision. those are his choices to make and i respect charlie rangel for what he has done across his 30 years of public service. >> chris: thank you so much for coming in today. always a pressure to talk with you -- always a pleasure to talk with you, sir. >> thank you, sir. >> chris: coming up, the fallout. the sunday regulars weigh in and believe me, you won't want to miss it. he jumped the gun partly because we now live in this media culture where if something goes up on youtube or a blog and everybody scrambles. >> chris: president obama blaming agriculture secretary and the media for the firing of shirley sherrod. and it is time for our sunday group. brit hume, fox news senior political analyst. and contributors mara liasson of national public radio, bill kristol of the weekly standard and juan williams also from national public radio. brit, what do you make of the sherr road case and what do you make of this argument that this is one more example of a 24/7 media culture run amuck and that we are all guilty? >> well, if this weren't so depressing, this whole episode it would make a wonderful as far as. i mean the misinformation that has emmy natee emmy eminated f, although it should be noted for the record that the original video contained mention of how she came things in a different light. part of redemption story was there, it just was overlookle in the early going by everybody, principally the administration which reacted to this virtually before it was reported anywhere outside of the blogosphere and the web. the misinformation then obviously led to her firing but then there were all kinds of myths about how that came about and you heard governor dean here on this program this morning spouting one of the principal elements which is that fox news had been deeply involved in causing this and fox news as you pointed out hadn't even aired the woman's name until after she was forced out. this has been depressing. yes, partly the 24/7 media cycle but it wasn't even cranked out until she was forced out. >> this was done in part out of concern that the administration would be engulfed by a 24/7 media cycle and they tried to do what they thought all smart media shops would do is make the story not happen. >> they got engulfed all right. >> every entity here who did not do their homework and practice good journalism and report the entire videotape is guilty including fox who played it but not in its entirety after she had been fired. the naacp who had the videotape in their possession and didn't look at it before they condemned her remarks and certainly the administration who fired someone without. >> chris: you said the administration as an afterthought. they fired their own employ. >> they bear the highest standard because they were her employers, there is no doubt and they have acknowledged and apologized profusely. >> chris: but they keep saying it is all part of the media culture. >> that doesn't stop them from the responsibility. >> chris: they were elected to change the cycle. what was change about? >> they cannot change the cycle. >> chris: , well, do you think maybe not preemptively firing people might be a step in the right direction? >> this was a sorry spectacle from a to z. the only good thing i can think coming out of this is from now o on hopefully the administration and other media organizations will not take clips from partisan websites and them out as if they are the facts. >> i disagree with the moral equivalence between the on the one hand and the president of the united states. the media reported things falsely, this is nothing new. if you are the cabinet secretary you have an obligation to the people working for you to make sure that the charges being leveled against them are true and you with wait a day a and god, it would be horrible if glenn beck attacked the obama administration for one show. that never happens. the idea that you panic and fire someone based on one report that hadn't been on television yet. >> chris: right. >> that was entirely on a blog is pathetic. it is really just pathetic as a matter of a political leader's action. i like the secretary and respect him. a former two term governor of iowa, in the political mailstern of iowa and didn't fire people because there was one negative story in the des moines newspaper. the white house staff was congratulating people on hey we got out ahead of the news cycle. that is pathetic. >> chris: it has been reported that the white house denies that it happened. is the white house afraid of the conservative media? >> yeah, i mean the white house is afraid of a charge that has been building in conservative media 24 that is a suggestion t somehow you have a black president and a black attorney general and there is now going be reverse discrimination against white people in america and i don't know exactly where this is coming from, you know, but it is out there. i think part of it is the argument over the new black panther party case where the bush administration filed a voter intimidation case and some felt that the obama administration has not aggressively pursued that case and it is now a matter of contention before the u.s. civil rights commission and the argument over whether or not the push administration politicized justice with the firing of the attorney generals, the obama administration made a decision not to go forward in terms of prosecuting anybody in that case. then you have immigration which is a racial hot button in this country right now. >> chris: that is one they pushed. >> i don't know who is pushing but both sides are playing that issue to stir their base as we approach the fall elections. and then finally the naacp and the tea party. the tea party hold gd up signs they are aggressively condemning president obama without much sensitivity and at times crossing the line and then the naacp calling them out and saying they have to renounce racist elements in their midst and then andrew bright bart saying here is evidence of the naacp, i think this was the intent of the tape to show that the naacp has racists in its ranks. what you have here is everybody playing the race card for their own -- i mean including the agriculture department which has a huge suit against it by black farmers. everybody in here saying it is convenient to push the race button and have everybody else distracted from their own sins. >> you know what i -- coming back to here -- what i keep coming back to here with this president is i think that his political advisors and perhaps he himself have been deathly afraid of the idea that he is simply and principally a black president rather than a president who happens to be black and that all the historical achievement that that represents. and if the idea were to take hold that he and his justice department as juan was mentioning are carrying out policies and actions to pursue a racial or reason a racist agenda this would be political death. so you have this hyper sensitivity to an official who made what appeared to be a proud statement of having conducted her business in a racial way even though it was 24 years ago and we now know that it was -- you know, it was actually a rather moving story of her turning away from that kind of thing. and i -- i sense that that is what is driving this here is a very profound sensitivity if he is pigeon holed in that way he is marginalized and politicized for good. >> she is somebody that they don't know, though her under the bus. eric holder who called america a nation of cowards, they don't pick on him. i think -- besides race, it is just so irresponsible as a matter of running the government to ask someone to resign based on one tape that hasn't been showed yet on television and hasn't been confirmed. >> chris: we have to take a break here. when we come back, the debate over the recovery. now, some democrats are sayin this is no time to raise taxes, even on the wealthy. i believe that the high end tax cuts have not created jobs, they have increased the deficit and they should be repeal. >> raising any one's taxes at this moment in time in this weak economy doesn't make economic sense. >> chris: a new split among democrats about the wisdom of letting the bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire at a time when the economic recovery is still fragile. and we are back with our group. not a stampede yet but suddenly we are hearing from democrats including three in the senate, well, maybe we shouldn't raise taxes on the wealthy yet. maybe we should keep the tax cuts for a couple of years until the economic recovery is stronger. mara, what are the chances that the president and congressional leaders will now back off on their call to let the tax cuts expire, thereby raising taxes on the wealthy? >> i think the obama administration was determined to let the high end tax cuts expire but keep the tax cuts for people making $250,000 for less. now, that you will see there is three democrats, ken conrad and nelson and you saw evan bayh in the clip saying it was not a good idea. we went through a big fight called the deficit versus spending. people concerned about the deficit won. look at how much the package of unemployment benefits had to be wittleed down before it passed. now, the deficit versus tax cuts. all of a sudden the republicans don't dare with the deficit, they just care about the tax cuts. the problem for the obama administration s they are also a little bit pregnant on this, they want most of the tax cuts to continue, too, which is also bad for the deficit. i think there has to be some kind of a deal. maybe continue temporarily. inch steadx breaks industry of the high end ones. being accused of racing taxes is not where the obama administration wants to be and they -- >> chris: they don't mind raising taxes for the wealthy. >> wealthy, but it is a big charge to be raising taxes in a recession and also adding to the deficit. two problems. >> chris: one of the other factors in the whole debate about deficits versus the recovery and keeping it going, is fed chairman ben bernanke who this week said in the short-term we have to be more concerned about economic recovery and we can worry about the deficit once we get to the mid term. he thinks that the recovery is fragile enough you don't want to do anything to mess it up. >> so do the white house economists if you read between the lines. shows the economy growing 4%. the congressional budget office shows the economy only growing 2.5%. someone asked kristina roamer why is your number how much higher. she said we are building into our projection, we are enacting the obama tax cut, that is to say we are not raising taxes on the huge majority of americans and that will help economic growth. kristina roamer understands that tax increases inhibit economic growth. she and her husband had a paper published, update of the old paper in the american economic review, june 2010. >> chris: updated it, though, that is fascinating. >> i saw this on a blog and linked to it. there it was. in june 2010 kristina and david say that further impeericcal studies confirmed that tax increases are con tractionary and the effects are strongly significant and highly robust. the obama administration is going to be in a tough position to say all the middle class tax cuts, keeping them where they are now is important for the recovery but we can a raise small business tax rates by a lot and that is not going to affect economic growth? that is a tough position to argue. >> chris: juan? >> you said are republicans willing to pay for extending the bush tax cuts and senator kyl became tongue tied and didn't know how to respond. you care so deeply about deficit and then say yeah, let's extend tax cuts that are going to drive up over $1.6 trillion, the size of the u.s. debt. doesn't make sense. to me what you have got to do it protect the economic recovery. you said that ben bernanke said in the authorit short term we o support that. former chair allen greenspan said the deficit and the size of it is the real threat to the economy and a bigger threat than even the short-term benefit that would come to the economy from -- >> greenspan is in favor of not letting any of the tax rates stay where they are. >> he is a deficit guy. >> he is a deficit guy. >> he is in favor of letting the tax cuts expire. if you are a growth person you should be for keeping the current tax rates for two years. >> for two years. >> there have been two times in the past 25 or 30 years when the deficit began to grow. when we made major progress against the deficit. once was in the middle of the clinton years when the economy was booming. now, it was a dot com bubble but the economy was roaring and we went to surplus which is a remarkable thing and the economy tip inside recession and the deficit began to grow again. in the middle years of the bush presidency the economy boomed and the deficit despite the war spending which was extraordinary, the deficit came down i think for three consecutive years. we didn't get to surplus but it came down remarkably during those three years. that was we now know the housing bubble. and bubbles which the way, for all their other problems are wonderful for dealing with the deficit because they produce a gusher of tax receipts. the point being that the only times we really made progress against the deficit have been when the economy was just roaring. mind you during the clinton years it was the second term of clinton. the spending restraints imposed by republicans and the president went along with epihelped that. >> and tax hikes. he did raise taxes. >> he did in the beginning of his administration. >> right. >> but the boom didn't come until later. it didn't keep that in happening. but the point being what you need most of all is to emerge from this problem, this recession in full and have a robustly growing economy. >> there is one other thing -- >> i don't think you going to get there from here if these tax rates go up. >> the tax hikes expire, the tax cuts expire. whey is that? busbush and the republicans pad them. because they are too expensive to continue. >> on pape. that is why they sunset. and if the republicans are current to their convictions they would have made them per ma intercept. >> what are we talking about in reality. tax rates going from 39.6% to 35%. >> they are at 35 and going to 39. >> no, in other words, they would be under the bush tax cuts they are 35. >> they are. >> and so they would bump back up to 39. i mean that, you know, and this is for the very rich in the country, people have are benefiting even in the midst of this. suprempeople still under 250 wouldn't have it. >> let me ask you, when is the last time -- >> let me finish the point. president obama already cut taxes as he points out for 95% of working people by cutting payroll taxes. >> let me ask this question. when is the last time one of these poor people offered you a job? the people who are the job creators, the people who have money to invest, capital to put at risk, to build enterprises and they hope make more money are people that have some money to begin with. >> and god bless them, they are important. but sometimes you have to have consumers -- >> and if you diminish a, the amount of money they have on hand by taxing it away and the incentive to make more because they know a larger portion of it will be taxed away you are dammenning the impulse to grow the economy. >> i appreciate it. consumers are the heart and soul of this economy. you have got to have people willing to go in and spend money in order that small business will be in position then to do the hiring. but you can't have banks and small business saying we are sitting on our money because we are worried about risk that is ridiculous when they have the money. >> chris: thank you, panel, see you next week. piccheck out the latest editiof panel plus on foxnewssunday.com. we promise we will post the video before noon eastern time. up next, our power player of the week. he cooks for tv and movie stars as well as the most powerful politicians but as we first told you last february, it's what he does for needy children that makes him our power player of the week. >> people are hungry, there aren't angry people, hungry people. >> the gospel according to art smith which has gone from florida farm boy to celebrity chef has given back to inner city kids. >> i just feed them. >> his remarkable story begins on the farm where he spent his time in the kitchen, not in the field. >> the majority of what i learned about food came from my mother and grandmothers, i saw how every day they would cook and use food as a way to bring the family together. >> by age 23 he was cooking for the governor of florida. in 1997 he begin eight years as personal chef for oprah winfrey. >> everybody loves food made with love. >> who introduced to other chicagoans, obamas. >> i met them. >> had do you call of her miss winfrey? >> but in 2004 he started his biggest project. >> common thread, focus is to teach children about how to cook, but not to be little chefs but to be human beings. >> chris: now running in 33 locations, in chicago, washington, miami and los angeles, it's an after school program for more than a thousand eight to 12-year-olds. focus is on nutrition, semifinal reliance and foreign cultures. >> there we have it. >> taking children from that situation and exposing them to something that they not only can teach them how to take care of themselves but gives them a window to the world. >> his day job is the two restaurants. michelle went to table 52 last valentine's day and he has opened art and soul where is we got down to business. >> it's about vegetables. you can have some fish and stuff that is really good. >> chris: how are we going to do this? >> we're going the taste off everything. >> first off is macaroni and cheese. >> then the fried chicken and beets and pickle ajdz the mini cupcakes. >> you couldn't serve this kind of food on a sunday talk show because it would be boring. >> which brings us back to his view, food is love. >> people don't spend enough time together eating. that is what we've done and we've done it very well. >> chris: he loves food as much as art smith, his greatest project may be himself. since last year he has lost 85 pounds. that is it for today. have a g