online. the old order is history the world is reorganizing itself and the media's role these keep shifting powers the topic in focus at the global media forum twenty nineteen the laboratory for the digital age. who are we following whom do we trust to debate and shape the future at the doj a valid global media forum twenty nine t. the place made for minds. this week conflict zone is at the annual security conference in munich i meet plenty of recriminations and bad blood between europe and washington my guest here is jim risch chairman of the powerful senate foreign relations committee how damaging is this transatlantic divide and how committed is the trumpet ministration to nato. jim risch welcome to conflict zone thank you very much like to be here all the latest polls show the french germans the british now regard the us as a greater danger to their interests than china which you regard as your prime danger how much blame do you think washington should take for that. well. sometimes events drive us in a direction that we shouldn't be driven. we. we don't feel the same way about our european friends or were more like kerry you know there are a lot of recriminations these days particularly over iran. in more regard to the round deal that europe continues to abide by sure the one that you get out of well we didn't walk out of it the president had states at that time barack obama entered into that agreement. over the objection of a lot of us it did not have the things in it that it needed to have and it was very weak it did indeed address one issue but i viewed the iran. deal as a deal to try to discipline the bad boy in the classroom that was doing five bad things they addressed one of them but they're trying to take one didn't they dressed one of them a big one they had dressed one of them but. the when when you have to deal with american families whose kids have been killed by devices that were made in iran we consider that a big deal and i can guarantee you the families who have to deal with that loss consider that a very big deal and iran thumb their nose at us at you at the world and say we're going to kill you we're going to consider that u.s. senate or europe doesn't see it that way the fact is that as a signatory to the nonproliferation treaty iran has pledged not to develop nuclear weapons ever full stop what's wrong with that well there's nothing wrong with that if they would clean up their act on everything else and would have agreed to the deal wasn't about everything else it was about this you know you can argue and they do that it wasn't a perfect deal and that it could have included other aspects in it but the deal itself pledges and they recommitted to this in the deal they suddenly j.c.b. away never ever to produce he knew what i mean why they won't stop their terrorist activities and why they won't abide by the u.n. resolutions those are things that those of us who disagreed with the agreement wanted in the agreement and if they weren't willing to do that then we should have kept the pressure up on them i've i appreciate we have a disagreement there but nonetheless we feel very very strongly that iran was we had the opportunity to rain iran up in all the things that they were doing but that was indeed a missed opportunity and we believe i hope you can do it i wish you all the best in the world that you can do it you respect your views of israeli view intelligence and military analysts on the suspect. among the intelligence committee and i i have to respectfully decline to comment intelligence information i'm not going to have but their views on the iran deal commie guillen for instance from the head of the domestic intelligence service the shin bet he said two years after the deal. came into force while the majority of my colleagues in the israeli military and intelligence communities supported the deal once it was reached many of those who have major reservations now acknowledge it has a positive impact on israel's security must be fully maintained well that's up to them we're a sovereign nation and we are strong our lives with them we're very strong allies with them we'll we consider the nurses of the danger than you are if there is a danger but. i hope you're not suggesting that we have to agree. on everything because we will not agree on everything and i can tell you again we feel very strongly the iran issue and the fact that iran has got to behave itself and if it doesn't it's going to continue to be under the pressure that the united states is going to bring from the sanctions that we are going to maintain in place and i hope yours is either going to cause a great a rift with europe because i don't think so. you're on your or your a tone here is much different than what i get from the. and i meet every day. with ambassadors from europe and and they acknowledge that we have a disagreement in this regard but they're not nearly as hostile as the questions that you're asking here today really i mean fairly federica more clearly for instance the e.u. foreign policy chief said last year we cannot accept as europeans that others even our closest allies and friends to term and decide with whom we can do business with or trade she was talking about your assumptions well course telling you that your sways again as much as she can tell us to back up or we're not going to. marini also said it seems that screaming shouting insulting and bullying systematically destroying and dismantling everything that's already in place is the mood of our times this impulse to destroy is not the thing that's anywhere good it's not solving any of our problems i'm with you i don't think yelling and screaming gets a say anywhere but on the other hand i think we have to have reasonable dialogue we consider ourselves strong allies of the europeans we want to remain that way but we have disagreements such as the the refusal to. your refusal to abide by the agreements you made to. as far as nato is concerned that's a disagreement that we have but is that going to. is that going to dissolve nato of course not we view nato as the strongest military alliance that has ever ever been entered into in the world we want to maintain that alliance but again you talk about us now keeping our green went on iran there are members of the nato organization that aren't keeping their agreements but let's let's talk let's talk a bit about that let's talk about that because at the nato summit in brussels last summer mr trump claimed that for twenty seventeen the amount of money that other nato countries were spending on defense was going down and down very substantially that was what he said that's it's quote simply wasn't true was it i wasn't there so i don't know and i guess i'm not as they were wasn't sure because in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen nato europe and canada increase their defense spending by up to one point eight three percent twenty fifteen three zero one four you agree with me though that they were keeping the commitments and only seventeen of the members were keeping the commitments we do agree with me on that the commitment was to get it up to two percent by twenty twenty four that was the commitment will know about twenty twenty four yet and it wasn't hard it was commitment to not try and attract it well i don't think you made when i was trying to try to get there and mr trump also made another the erroneous statement at the summit he said everyone has agreed to substantially up their commitment they're going to up at the levels they've never thought of before it was a troop. it's older president mark wrote to say there's a communique it informs the goal of two percent by two thousand and twenty four that's that's all that's all it is you know i came here to do an interview with you and i want to do an interview but i don't want to debate i don't do these in washington d.c. and i'm not going to do it here but if you want to interview me i'll be happy to do it i'm not going to debate with you well i'm asking you and your reaction to that because you said that my reaction you are of europe haven't lived up to its commit it has not and are you trying to tell me that europe has lived up to its commitments under nato is that what you're trying to tell me because believe me there is no belief for that on anybody's part that some of the european nations are not living up to their commitments and indeed look i've done this for ten years i've come over here and tried to talk to nato countries into living up to their agreements they patted us on the head and said all well we're on track to try to do this or try to do that i said i. really give president trump a lot of credit because indeed since he's been in office and since he has underscored this there are countries that are making much better efforts to live up to their agreements and we look where allies here you and i are arguing like we're on opposite sides need it was a is an alliance that we all belong that's a great alliance and the that we want to continue it's in your best interests it's in our best interest and argument can be made it's even more in your interest because you're closer to the issue than we are and the the i.m.f. is another issue that that we think that you have a great great stake in chancellor angela merkel said last year that there were good reasons to continue fighting for the transatlantic relationship but we have she added we can't count on it and the more. well i'm sorry she feels like that we don't feel like that. you say that but a bipartisan group of lawmakers introduced a bill to prevent mr trump from withdrawing from nato without can grow congress's approval the press i don't believe the president's going to withdraw from nato be a i have no reason to believe that he's going to withdraw from nato but this deal is a preemptive strike is it to prevent him from doing so obviously some people very political very political obviously very people in congress believe some people do believe seriously so there's a five hundred thirty eight there's five hundred thirty five members of congress and there's a belief for about everything in that five hundred thirty five members ability but i don't look i'm chairman of the for the relations committee and i'm here to tell you we are committed to nato we're going to continue to be committed to nato there is no feeling in the united states of america that we want to withdraw from nato just the opposite really and you can give that commitment sitting right here that mr trump the white house i'm not going to commit on behalf of mr trump you'll need to talk but that's all about me not to give you a commitment i can give you. now see that sentence again that's what matters at the end of the day no it does not trump now well it does not i always have difficulty when i'm talking about the structure of our government with my european friends we are the first branch of government when the united states was founded the founding fathers wisely put together three branches of government co-equal branches of government except that the first branch of government holds the purse strings and passes the laws the second branch of government mr trump can't pass any laws by the way i'm a friend of his he and i get along relatively well we have disagreements just like he's never talked to you about dumping nato he has never said to me that. he would don't need to let's talk about the us attitude to human rights because that as much as anything else appears to have changed with this administration the munich security report that accompanies this this conference that you are here to attend the qs is the administration of displaying an irritating enthusiasm for strongman across the globe would you say that was for no. i'm living in a post human rights world. no look we're just like our friends the europeans the germans all all our friends in europe we feel strongly about human rights it's in our soul and it's in our heart it's in your soul and in your heart now do we always exist agree exactly of course not but human rights is always going to be at the top of the list of those of us who are part of western civilization is just the what he had the as you say that rex tillerson trumps first secretary of state spelt out that there from messy said too often promoting our values as an obstacle to advancing of interest well you know that we're it's early human rights we're not we're not doing very well here why don't you ask me about how i feel on these issues instead of thrown at me quotes from other people i don't want to do this i really don't want to debate and i don't want to be here reacting to what other folks said ask me about human rights asked me about nato but asked me about it and how the united states foreign relations committee of the united states senate feels about it and then they are going to and you and i are going to get along really well but you see why these comments well yeah but there is a gate here in europe and i could use the doubts about which direction the u.s. is going to and i'm really sorry that we didn't have a good clear understanding more we started this i always do when i do this in d.c. i really want to do a good interview with you i want to tell you where i stand where the united states senate stands where our committee stands but you're asking me to defend all kinds of statements by other people and look at i'm just not there you need somebody else to to debate on this issue i'm not going to debate with you an issue but i really want to give you an interview on all the issues you've got on your paper about where i am where the united states senate is and where my committee is there's talk then about the attitude to saudi arabia of to the murder of jamal khashoggi. and the clear reluctance of the trumpet in the station to hold the saudi crown prince. look i just want to get let's talk about where i am let's let's talk about where i am satisfied let me that now you're satisfied let me tell you what the view of the united states senate and what our committee is on this the the murder was a despicable event it was something that the people living in the twenty first century can't tolerate it's not the way human being should treat each other and as a result of that the united states has sanctioned seventeen people the been identified with it it's an ongoing investigation of the crown prince response here it's an ongoing investigation right now we on the. united states. senate committee on foreign relations have just entered into negotiations further negotiations with the intelligence agencies to get the to get more information on that look there's there's there's nobody i hope you're not thinking that there's somebody who that is soft on this the thinks that this is all right this is not all right the saudi arabia is a strong ally as are saying that but we heard the president say maybe he did it maybe didn't there. look i'm not going to defend the president here you know if you wanted to interview him i can line up probably with some people who can see who you can do an interview on and you can cross-examine them all day long statements that the president has made tweeting and otherwise and you'll have a long long interview and fine and that will be great asked me what we're doing and how we look at this you should have. the compromise response of lindsay's a really really good friend of mine. and i have had family and i have hasn't confidential conversations on that there between he and i he is he is a he that. state senator and he won't tell me whether you agree with him or not and what the fact that he says there are a zero chance that the killing of that without the princes not that well look he did you then ask him the evidence he had there are and i have said i knew it was so i have a very different yeah i went to a cia briefing well i'm on the intelligence committee lindsey is and i have looked at every scrap of evidence there is on that and unfortunately because of my position on intelligence committee i can't sit here and reiterate that for you and in that regard i can't comment on that but i can comment on the seventeen people that we have found to be responsible and that we have sanctioned let's talk about north korea since mr trump is soon to hold a summit with conjunction you suggested that he hasn't will see the president hasn't received enough credit for his efforts absolutely said the president singlehandedly back to some way from the cliff he has no credit for that yes he should you could argue the single handedly took you to the cliff edge didn't you know now that foreign fury i think of the world has ever seen i think kim jong un is going to take is there a year ago right here as you may or may not go as you may or may not know or remember i gave a pretty tough speech on that particular subject and i really believed and i believe today that we were headed for a very very bad place in america people were. some people were urging the president and states not to meet with kim jong un they said they shouldn't give him the prestige of a meeting and i was on the opposite side of that i said put president trump across the table from kim jong un let them look each other in the eyes and for those of as they are. not fully. and let them discuss this and see if they can't get us to a different place than where we are where we are and they did that and there is a legitimate. good for thought there to be commended for talking and they're certainly committed to lowering the. the rhetoric that has been thrown by both sides at each other i think the president should get great graduates or there seems to be a different place between mr trump understanding that there is no longer a nuclear threat from north korea and the cia's understanding as they voted out you probably are interviewed both of them on the move on they said june aspel said they're committed to developing a long range nuclear missile will post a direct threat to the us since that january thirtieth with that. hi gina testifies before our committee regularly we have various points of view on all of these matters we have seventeen different intelligence agencies each of them takes each of these and rates their belief as to whether it is a strongly held belief or weakly whether becomes of the moment when we're at some similar threat north korean still a threat well of course still everyone's a threat of course is still a threat but look it is not what it was a year ago a year ago we were in a very very bad place i don't feel that way anymore i really don't i think the president is going to continue to talk them i think he's going to continue to move them up back away eight from where they were i think he's given kim jong un the ability to take an exit ramp that will put us all in a lot better place than where we were and i wish people would quit doing this to the president and instead prayed pray that he continues to be successful in this regard because this is a matter with the different voices that are coming to washington that still so we can deal with here in europe you stay with you you may i'm sure i mean i'm hearing their voices for you are right on venezuela. just a trump refuses to take the option of deploying u.s. forces affair and i say that again he refuses to take remove the option of putting limits you are in the united states senate with me in here well i think the m. here is to have the transition that is taking place continue to take place peacefully we met with the. we met with. those representative the new ambassador to the united states and one white go is the president of venezuela at the present time we believe strongly that the warning to you we believe strong. longly that the. that the venezuelan people should be commended for the way that they've handled this they used the rule of law to rep to remove. mr maduro still than he's still venice and that would you mind letting me finish my sentences pushes. they used the rule of law to remove mr manure all from the presidency and to install one quite go as the president as a result of that we in the united states have recognized the why go ahead ministration as the lawful administration we've opened up the funds that were deposited in the united states and put them at the disposal of the. administration but we've messed with durai million pounds that. he's well he's known as the he claims he even claims to be president then swell up and he is not president of venezuela. and we believe that as time goes on he's his power there is going to continue to fade what little power that he does have left and again the thing we want most is to see this thing resolved we met with the. with the president of colombia had a lengthy conversation with them i can tell you that there is no daylight between the united states and colombia as to where this is going and how it's going. we we have met with a number of other countries obviously look the people that are the people that are supporting. the girl are the rubes gallery in the world including the iranians. the the russians the north koreans put little frosting on occasion as it was is a sense that you don't think this is a stalemated situation so it's not now i guarantee it's not a step that mr suddenly i'm also you should know also you should know that we have prepositioned a tremendous amount of aid humanitarian aid on the border and that's going to start moving in in very quickly and the do it in the short time we have left you know can we just look at the when all the. concern about the wall that trump wants to build on the u.s. southern border in the news that he'll declare a national emergency to get all the funding that congress to him is this an abuse of power now in your view look we have issues on our southern border it's about two thousand miles long. there is about six hundred fifty four miles of wall existing it was built at the last four presidents two republicans two democrats it was funded by the united states congress in a bipartisan fashion both republicans and democrats. we have serious issues to our south right now particularly from central america you have a national emergency i would clearly really clearly we have a clearly clearly a lot of people in your party don't think so well there is a book using it it's created last year is in the end in germany are you guys everybody all believe the exact same thing i did so i can tell you i don't speak french and i don't speak for any country well i can tell you there's in america there is diverse thought on any issue that you want to put on the table and that's why the america is as strong as it is because we do have that this is going to end up in the courts and a lot of wrangling for years to come in the in the yesterday and it's been in the courts for many many many years and i agree with you i think everything in america winds up in the courts some point in time as a national emergency is that mr trump's poll ratings of forming is that that's in truth the only national emergency well i don't think that's the case he's he's had his polling his polling has been up and down just like everybody else but look we resolve this through elections and that and i know my european friends they do they do get apoplectic over donald trump but we haven't really ever come we have such a people you know some do it with the democrats more so than the republic. yes but that look we're going to get through this we're americans we've had ups and downs with europe but we will continue to have ups and downs with europe we have ups and downs between our states within the united states between our political parties and everything else but we will resolve and we'll get through them and it will be stronger and better for you could turn you on the program thanks very much to. the feeling a. slightly . eco india a. how can a country's economy grow can harmony with its people and the climate the and there are do worse look at the bigger picture. india a country that faces many challenges the fix and people are striving to create a sustainable future a a clever projects from europe and into a coke india on t w. some say that we're born into this world alone. but we're not. on the second we come into this world we're in it together. each of us can leave a mark. there we can make a real difference at what year it was all about. nat's why we've. sometime in the twenty sixth. my great granddaughter will be born. what will the world be like in your lifetime and around half a century place when i was there were three people you will share the planet with nine billion. plus your world around trying to please one of the inevitable sea level rise by at least one meter in the tribeca to help some climate impacts were turned greater than the tsunami played it's really frightening. to have luck. why aren't people more concerned. for the first w. please. cut cut.