The jungle and return to the concrete and glass jungle of. Reverse culture. From the forest start people first on w. The trial of cattle and separatist leaders over their failed independence has laid bare some stock divisions in Spanish Society not least over the Justice System my guest this week here in madrid is spains Foreign Minister use that burrell how does he answer the charge that the trials are fundamentally unfair. You as a bar of welcome to conflict. Last year
a lady called come a fall was the president of the Catalan Parliament she was arrested charged with rebellion when she was interviewed last december she was spending fifteen hours a day in her cell in Solitary Confinement is this really the image of spain that you want to show the rest of the world. This is a judiciary decision. To hold. People under control or another to avoid them to escape from the justice like a grandmother. In a prison convicted of nothing by the joy joyce the Presumption Of Innocence before her. Everybody who did preventive jail enjoys the Presumption Of Innocence instead of thirty percent of the people who are preventing the tension
its hard not to see her incarceration as the action of a vindictive State Setting out to punish defendants they should. Be enjoying this Presumption Of Innocence in how to present an innocent. Nothing to vote with your on record as saying that you wish some of those in pretrial detention were three. Times exactly that they would have. The judge could have found another way of preventing them from escaping the action of justice you said there were other methods that could have been used you said there were other methods that could help the beauty of so this was unfair treatment. In your view though. Youd have preferred to see them out of pretrial and the other you know another thing to make me say things that they havent said understand to national calling
to them the use of pretrial detention is justified only when there is no alternative measure which would ensure the interests of justice you have said there are alternative measures so it is unfair well ok of the judge has decided to play man these measures because he thinks it has to move so i am not going to. This side and the plate of judges in spain judges are in there and then they take. Home i understand that story and if maybe mr put him on had them escape maybe they should could have taken other kind of measures do you know that with the man and of the us has been escaping that would have just been you know that there are very few people who dont know that or listen to them explain that but its not your role you tell me the courts are independent but its not your role to turn a blind eye to serious questions and doubts about the way your judicial system is
functioning isnt it because you came to power your government came to power promising to transform. Space my point to you is keeping people in lockdown in Solitary Confinement for fifteen hours a day. Solitary confinement fifteen hours a day sixty three year old grandmother convicted of nothing. Scuse me you say convicted of nothing do you know about the conviction. I start thinking that you dont anything about it she hasnt been convicted of anything as shes been charged but she has no charge convicted well lets. Stop it were going to do one of these or you stop this interview and this to me if you continue like this i just copied and you are not doing a thing me going to be wearing me. Police
know im im not a subject of any kind of inquiry from your side i understand that the right questions and let me talk if not ill stop it absolutely. Look. You came to power to modernize and. Last year the e. U. Scorecard which measured public trust in the independence of National Courts and judges put spain in twenty third place on the list of member countries below portugal hungry and romania how do you feel about that Spending Ranking among the twenty best in the world. With. No unit of. The economist. I think is being classified. But the truth is when it comes to the charges of rebellion against the catalan defendants there has been a substantial outcry both here and abroad present that last november more than one hundred legal experts in spain signed an open letter condemning the charge of rebellion in the council didnt move you whether you led the judges made their work im asking your opinion. In spain. How do you think that the decision of the german court which refused to extradite the former catalan leader. On the charge of rebellion how how do you think that affected the credibility of the case against him because the german court said the
amount of violence required for the charge of high treason which is the closest they have to rebellion was not seen. In breach of the public peace they said does not apply because the market was only involved in carrying out the independence digital being you know the german judge. Its a blow to your case. Which at the time. Of the during the course was the court was basically saying that your Central Charge against the catalan defendants doesnt hold up well. I dont know how. The situation in spain but who has to judge is this pain score. Any suggestions here. Not going to get a fair trial the professor of Constitutional Law at civilian. Royo said i would like to be wrong but the way in which the October First Case has
proceeded so far inevitably points to a guilty verdict the trial will be a farce even though they will abide by all the legal procedures while its been held the verdict has already been written its a chilling accusation. Just that. Just that when you dont agree with the Association Of Judges For Democracy about the appointment of some of the leading figures in this case is very much a bias. Both of the people who criticises the judges i can barely hear other people who has. There may well be other views but theres been a damaging criticism. Its a third time how your man serving you this same hands in spain judiciary is in power let them do their work. The month
accused you of contributing to the increase in hate he said when you were appointed Foreign Minister this gesture they had in mind in order to send us a message of Fraternal Deescalation the fact that you have been you a catalan have been dead set against Catalonia Independence was he right was this a message of Fraternal Deescalation. Can you tell me why mr bush is saying these kind of things i cant i dont read his mind i am asking with the asking whether you agree with it for sure or not why should i try to defend myself from that consideration when mr put him on if you are unable to say which in beijing is there. If you how do you have to like this thing if you are talking about do you want to deescalate the situation have been discussed hating the situation this government has been making to be careful to know that the discovery of this situation
implementing the old kind of measures in order to make things go into normal again but we cannot give to them that the people did way to put it in the nation as they are asking for because it is against these pains crusty to show that this has nothing to do with International Law why not have a debate about the constitution and constitutional rights. That could have touched on those provisions which Outlaw Independence First Polish Regency could have done it they put up a bunch of the spanish barlow members and. Reformed because to do should by the basque bit they havent done it why didnt you do it do you are you not interested in reforming the constitution who is asking for the seventy percent those manuals one long haul reform according according to the center for Sociological Research
so much here so it. Could be merely lying. The center for Sociological Research has a word seventy percent of spaniards want constitutional reform of some college are some while you can have some guy. Of this Rebel Boy Finish was one of the nation i dont want to do that anymore. Minister in november the Human Rights Commissioner of the Council Of Europe wrote to the senate and the Congress Of Deputies pressing for serious amendments to the socalled law on citizens safety i know that your government promised meaningful changes to this law. But you havent delivered them via i. V. Invision to this. Concert and he was in not complaining at all and he said
that this pain is usually first consider returning and then was performing according with human rights law. So there was no criticism at all you didnt read the letter was sent there you had an interview with that they went with them and. I dont think there is a criticism about the functioning of the spanish or the story but you didnt you didnt change the law or do you promised meaningful changes to it and you havent i dont know exactly what you were talking about the general terms their consideration the. Concert will make about the spain system are very good what the commissioner wrote was in his letter i find it disturbing that according to the minister of interior Twenty Seven Thousand alone more than Twenty One Thousand sanctions have been imposed on the grounds of lack of respect or consideration for
police officers and the articles that can easily be interpreted he said in an arbitrary manner and thus have a Chilling Effect on freedom of expression well you have a bias approach to this you to a shooting in spain what they can tell you just give my gretsch court has had much less cases with respect to spain to many other countries. The Court Of Appeal and court of human rights decided that a number of Basque Separatists didnt get a fair trial. You confirmed that doesnt hope to argue does it no doesnt have my argument. But it cant repeat the ones in the game that the statistics show that this spain has much less much much less cases in front of the court of human rights than many other European Countries
like france belgium germany and others but you dont want. Are you not concerned about this Public Safety or you wanted to change it. Do you find it satisfactory that so many people were sanctioned for disrespecting the police i am not aware of what do you know but you cant refer to insist that they still are in general terms and the position that the spain has are respecting human right lets talk about arms sales in september last year you announced you had halted the sale of Laser Guided Bombs to saudi arabia with concerns over the use of such weapons in the war in yemen and just days later you changed your mind and said the contract had to be on. This country at the mall contract was higher it seems that it hasnt been anymore sell arms. To some of the area but you continue to sell arms not since this government this you know thieves they have been selling more arms you
said you had changed your mind and said this particular contract had to be on this particular contract had to be already was signed by the previous government and. The spanish socialist government believed that these trivia yet and we heard that yeah but these. Munitions of this kind have been used against Hospitals Hotels water whirls residential buildings factories and last year in the school bus attack so the question of Collateral Damage when theyve been aimed at civilian targets doesnt really apply does what they say everybody who has a minimum intelligence that you can understand is that the precision. Created less can add to all damages that would just run them if you put if its any civilian targets anyway thats just an academic argument why do you have to prove
that they have been used for that well but if you read what Human Rights Watch has said last year as of november last year six thousand eight hundred seventy two. Civilians have been killed and more than ten thousand wounded by saudi arabia Led Coalition airstrikes since twenty fifteen. They have documented about ninety apparently Coalition Air strikes which have Hit Homes Markets hospitals schools and mosques and these are the people you decided to honor the contract with you that it is not at all a problem about us saying that there are schools by discussing their violence. They will bomb coalition Coalition Air strikes but there are bombs some bombs the plane you know the only thing you have said is something that if you have a little be honest approach to the problem and youre willing to stand that a Precision Bomb creates less had to hold them that theyre random as
a former president of the European Parliament im sure you noted the criticism such arms of attracted in that forum last november i mean ps heavily criticized the way Member States have greenlighted most stones exports to saudi arabia despite the fact that those exports violated six out of eight criteria and thats undermined the european arms control effort the spores vollmer that this space has been doing. Fulfill completely all legal requirements Amnesty International so if your own export more prohibits arms transfers when there is reasonable suspicion it could be used in Human Rights Violations and we have committee that control this port of arms and to make sure that when we support our arms and we dont buy your mate any role. And you are confident despite
criticism from human Rights Groups despite what the e. U. Parliament has been saying about the need to stop these arms exports to saudi arabia you havent violated the criteria for that two or three times but you continue asking the same question that this government is saying nothing that we havent containing the supported arms so no more no more Laser Guided Bombs to saudi arabia at least was a contract that has to be heard before signed by the previous government and since then he has been another one religion to the town i am as the same as the minister and the time we have left id like to look at developments concerning gibraltar. Your government has made it clear that you intend to use the brics that process to open the question of shared sovereignty over gibraltar despite the fact that both
britain and gibraltar have signalled that that issue is not open for debate why do you bother bother worldwide to open the question of shared sovereignty who says that your Prime Minister did in november he said that the issue shared sovereignty would be back on the table all the Prime Minister sunsets for sure its on the table all the time you will require you but its not for them not for gibraltar not for britain for sure and what. So what so why do you think this time you can put it back on the to do you think its you can use the leverage the leverage of bracks at negotiations to put pressure on britain and. How badly you form you why really you dont know anything of what you are talking about my god what the what dont dont know do you do not do them help anything you were talking we had been saying very clearly that we were not. To you the dogs of the Black Sea Port of the
table the question most of the rain thingy are you a liar or are just not well informed and you didnt hear your Prime Minister say in november that the issue of sovereignty would be back on the table back on the table but not during the breaks of negotiations how your own you are incredible what about through the trade negotiations if there is to be a Free Trade Agreement between britain and spain what then will the again put pressure on gibraltar either you say despicable things i am going to surprise happen to come from. This is white this is the deal what you are talking of. You say that in this interview will you say that and you say that the shoe is on the table first of all you said the government had hadnt said anything about putting that on the table then you admit that Prime Minister certainly did say that can i explain please please have an answer to your continues question
please can you give me the opportunity please. We have said very clearly that we have not going to the question of Rain On The Table on the framework of breaks in negotiations and we havent done it which doesnt mean that we forget about the question were so willing to for that will we reach five agreement with the British Government that what you brought up with the withdrawal gritty and in the future we also agreed with it would be a good mission that any agreement with united in the legal perspective youve ruled you have to be on the spain new government thats all nothing more than that for sure we requested mr frame b. But it hasnt been called on that they would just take you to direct a negotiation you should know of outreach and not both questions on the fourth wave. On this on february the eighteenth Ballister One of your warships into
the waters and tried to order out commercial vehicles that were tied up there what was the point of that action because it is forbidden for the ships to stop they can pass but they can not stop now these were Gibraltar Waters british Gibraltar Waters which you dont recognize we. Do growth. Because according with which trade. We led government there waters we are acting a core with international more with. The ships come pass by not stop. One of your most experienced diplomats who headed your mission of the Scene Matters and. Has said publicly that theres no legal basis for claiming that gibraltar has no territorial waters it is not the Point Of View of this painting of
a man. Its if you have a disagreement and you do have this disagreement over Gibraltar Waters why not settle it through the disputes procedure of the law on the Sea Conflicts when we talk so as far back as nineteen sixty nine that painting i do put a question it will be much better we are led to interview or to answer the priest now also cutting my answer is the true sense of the question i have to all your for this pain is go over. The ships can pass by but they can not be stopping to water that we can see that they dont belong to this job role for us for it but why not settle this issue. Why not settle nationally. That. Why not settle it. I understand what you mean you dont answering my question this is a question that many pairs of warm its my answer what are you afraid of the
dialogue taking it to International Arbitration to the International Court of justice they could decide this matter of just not competent for this kind of question and the u. N. Law of the sea they are competent he wont take it to them either you want to put me in the bank with guilty people or im just asking why not you are very funny. Really funny. Youve just reached the Tax Agreement with Britain Over Gibraltar so dialogue can get some results cant. Unload with gibraltar who i said i would reckon i said with the region of our general greater women got something wrong with it you were concerned about tax fraud in gibraltar such right why not do more to prevent things like fraud and bribery and Money Laundering anyway can spain
do more and we want. To more. Transparency International Says that key European Countries are failing to enforce the oh you see these Anti Bribery Convention which is one of the main instruments for fighting global corruption which is the question. And spain is one of the which is the question and spain is one of them so currently showing according to Transparency International little or no in force why is that we do as much as we can. But you could do more sure you. Could do better. Minister good to have your own company. Thank you thank you to your butt next time. If you could the questions and the last by years away. Im not here just to give you the questions you want me. To. Germany to learn german english finical. Why not learn with them theres a good Learning Course because fake. Hijacking the new. More i can promise the news is be hijacked journalism itself has become a real. Do reality show its not just good versus evil us versus them why and why. In countries like russia china turkey people are told that it does not and
if youre a journalist there and you try to get beyond it you are facing scare tactics intimidation. And i wonder is that where were headed as well. My responsibility as a journalist is to get beyond the smoke and mirrors its not just about being clear for a balanced or remove troll its about being truthful. When he was bored golf and i were getting. Some people dont care about me. Because they dont see my puti. Some people dont care about me because they think i have nothing to give. But two billion you do. Too then i am everything. Their home. The
a food. Their livelihood. But day by day i disappear. And so does everything. Two billion people care about me. Me me. And now. I need
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