Transcripts For CSPAN3 Walter Mondale And Gary Hart On Stren

Good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for coming. My name is mike german, a fellow with the Brennan Center for justice at the new york law school. I welcome you to strengthen oversight. This year marks 40th anniversary of the creation of Senate Select committee to study governmental operations with respect to intelligence activities, more simply known as Church Committee after chairman senator church. It was the first and only comprehensive investigation of secret intelligence activities within the United States. This is one of a series of activities that the Brennan Center has undertaken to recognize this anniversary. We published a report called whats wrong with the fisa court with directors, they will be leading a panel two panels on executive oversight activities. We also published a report on strengthening congressional oversight signed by 18 Church Committee staffers, many of whom are in the room with us today and youll notice that they have name tags on. So feel free to talk to them throughout the day. It also contains a forward written by two Church Committee members. The senator from minnesota, Vice President Walter Mondale and senator gary hart. Finally chief council Fritz Schwartz has written a new book called the seduction of government secrecy. The purpose of todays symposium is to examine how intelligence reforms instituted, as a result of the Church Committee investigation 40 years ago, have fared and how they might be improved. When the Church Committee issued its report, it warned that its recommendations for reform would be tested over time and that new National Security threats would arise that could be used to justify new departures from American Values in the rule of law. So we have it that chaos and shamrock and others were replaced by stellar wind and score talon and fusion center, black sites and enhanced interrogation techniques. Were hoping a new generation of intelligence overseers can benefit from the wisdom generated by Church Committee investigation and be inspired by the decades of Public Service our guests dedicated to strengthening democracy. Its my honor and privilege to welcome Vice President Walter Mondale, senator gary hart and brennan council fritz schwarz. [ applause ] thank you so much for being here. I thought that id like to start by kind of knocking down some of the myths. One of them that i think was persistent during my time in the government as an fbi agent was that the Church Committee investigation took place during a period of tranquility. And that in our current situation, the threat is so high that we should put off any kind of comprehensive investigation, so as not to distract those who are working to protect us from our important mission. But here just a few of the things that were going on. The United States army withdrawn from vietnam and the north Vietnamese Army started its final assault on saigon. The khmer rouge took over in cambodia, king of saudi arabia assassinated. Japanese red army engaged in bombings throughout europe, middle east, i. R. A. And Ulster Volunteer killing dozens in Northern Ireland and britain. Abu nadal organization bombed a twa flight from tel aviv to jfk killing 88 people. Station chief was assassinated in greece, two fbi agents killed at pine indian reservation. A bombing by croatian nationalists at Laguardia Airport killed 11 people and Puerto Rican National killed four in a bombing in new york. So with this dynamic threat environment going on, how is it possible that the investigation began Vice President mondale, and why was it necessary and why did you want to be a part of it . I think begin by looking at Seymour Hershs story, an explosive headline in the New York Times that contained the list of abuses and dysfunction in intelligence agencies. A list made up itself that leaked and told the nation we were really in trouble. If you look at these problems youve cited, one of the reasons why we had to reform and make the agencies more responsive was in order to deal with the threats that were apparent to the security of our nation. And i would say that there was a general agreement to that. I remember i was on the floor when john stood up and moved that the creation what is now known as Church Committee on the grounds this couldnt continue. Im convinced Mike Mansfield saw right away this had to be dealt with. So i think what we did could be explained because it helped prevent some of the abuses in the past, some of the mistakes of the past that cost us dearly but also because we had to straighten this out and only announce a committee within the control of the senate could do it. Why did you want to be on it . Wow. Well, you know, i had followed this stuff as a senator. I had been attorney general in my state. I dealt with some of these issues. I sensed something was really wrong without being in on the inside. And when i heard john give that speech, i went to mansfield and i said, when youre setting this committee up, would you look at me . He said, yeah, i will. Senator hart, you were a freshman senator, only three weeks on the job at that point. How did you handle this kind of and given a prominent role as well as a drafter, primary drafter for the courts. How did you handle that kind of responsibility so quickly . Well, i was not only a freshman senator, it was my first month in the senate. I had barely met the other senators by this time. The answer to your first question is why do it now is why hadnt we done it before . First article of the constitution requires the congress of the United States to oversee the operations of the executive branch. All of them. It does not exempt National Security. And from 1947 and the passage of the National Security act, beginning of the creation of whats been called the National Security state, which then incorporated began to incorporate cia and expand very, very rapidly, there had been not only virtually but there had been no congressional oversight. So historically the question is between 1947 and 1975, why hadnt Congress Done its work . And we could spend a profitable hour discussing how most members of congress did not want to know, and, in fact, said senior members of the senate had said i dont want to know. Well, thats not what the constitution says. You have to know whether you want to or not, and so this was long overdue. And what did that experience teach you as a young senator how the Government Works . Well i still tell student audiences that im the last idealist, so when im gone there are no more. It was a hugely disillusioning experience, i would say particularly, not just a surveillance that went on under particularly the previous administration, but what came to be or what we discovered as the assassination plots. And then even worse the use of the as i of the mafia to try to carry out those plants against fidel castro. This opened up so many dark currents under our government. Ive characterized it as a sewer under the city on a hill. And for a 37yearold first term, first year senator, this was a great disillusionment. But i think in a way the work of the committee and our willingness on a bipartisan basis to make fundamental changes in the broadly defined intelligent sector was a triumph of democracy. And a tribute to the 11 members of that committee and probably one of the best congressional staffs that has ever been put together in the history of the republic. Fritz, you were the chief council of that staff. You didnt have any intelligent background when you were asked to do that job. How did you gain the trust of the intelligence agencies . How did we i dont think im very important in that. But we got it by first being determined that was absolutely necessary. And senator mondale had a great remark in which he said well just get extensions so they cant out last us. And showing the bipartisan nature of the committee, john towers said Something Like hallelujah, god bless you or Something Like that. And then, also in addition to being determined, show that you can reliably handle secrets. And the biggest there are legitimate secrets. I think our committee did that extraordinarily well. We had essentially no leaks and we made reasonable agreements with the executive branch about keeping certain things keeping secrets. And in contrast, the House Committee foundered and faltered and failed because they never were able to reach refuse to reach those accommodations with the government. All right. And Vice President mondale its hard to keep politics out of politics. This was an investigation by politicians. What did you do to relieve any concerns that there was going to be politization or partisanship in the investigation . I think there ought to be a separate study of how this committee worked and how it was established and how it approached its activities. Because we did achieve, i think, a general acceptance as a committee that was truly bipartisan and was working with everybody to bring these results about. And i would start in that study by reading the following names. Frank church, chairman, john j. Tower, vice chairman. Philip art, walter huddleston. Gary hart. Howard baker, Barry Goldwater. Matt matthias and richard striker. Staff, bill miller, Fritz Schwartz curt smothers who i dont think is here. How did you get a Committee Like that . My answer is Mike Mansfield. He wanted this to succeed. And he wanted to set up a committee that he thought could go through this huge explosive hearing, these process, and do what he knew would have to be done to Work Together and sustain bipartisanship. That worked. This committee was working together. There was a single staff. We didnt have a republican staff and a democratic staff. Bill miller came off the staff john sherman cooper, one of the saints of the senate and also a republican. And he had enormous prestige in that senate as a gifted staff member. And he was able he knew exactly what had to be done. He was an old hand. Then i think youd have to say that the executive branch, maybe with a little time, but they ended up in effect supporting what we were all doing. You have to give some credit to president ford who was not an idlog probably afraid of the concept but he wanted it to succeed. You had attorney general levi from university of chicago who became a tremendous supporter as the head of the Justice Department in shaping regulations and rules and became a believer before it was over. And so the contrast of this committee that worked together, excellent staff that provided that same background. And then the executive branch cooperating, not perfectly. But when you think of what we asked them and what they delivered, one of the jobs i had was as chairman of this committee, Domestic Task force we called it, was to look into the fbi records. Some of you were with me on that process. Well, we were seeing stuff that had never been seen before. We were seeing a pattern of abuse. We uncovered, for example, the fbi it was really hoovers antagonism toward Martin Luther king. He was convinced that Martin Luther king headed a black hate group, as they put it. He had agents all over the place trying to find something on king to knock him off his pedestal as they put it. They tried to break up the marriage. When king was picked to get the go to see the pope to get High International awards, the bureau tried today block that. They tried to in effect corrupt the public process and undermine and destroy one of the great leaders americas had. I think when this came out and we realized that this was not a process that let the public democracy work, but in fact was process that was corrupting one of the most essential elements, we knew we had something. And i think that carried the day. Let me not heroes, certainly important figures i would add what fritz has said, Vice President mondale said director william colby. A very controversial situation for him. He was under enormous pressure from the cia not to reveal some of the worst excesses or ill say excesses. But he made a decision to disclose to us in a highly intense session, long session, what came to be called shorthand the family jewels. It was in an inspector generals report that pretty much covered the waterfront of things that might be controversial or illegal, unconstitutional. He made a decision to reveal those to us. It was a monumental decision. It made an incredible difference in our ability to address the reforms and propose the reforms that we did. And he left the agency eventually under great criticism from people who thought he should have stonewalled and chose not to. So i have always felt that he was a very, very important figure. Another factor that was really important was the structure of the committee. As mansfield set it up it was six democrats to five republicans instead of what would have been normal seven to four. And john tower was a vice chairman and not a ranking member. And then the committee in its reaching bipartisan conclusions in a way our most important finding was that every president from Franklin Roosevelt to nixon, six president s, four democrats and two republicans had abused their secret powers, it helps us internally and externally to show that we were not being partisan in our major findings. Senator hart you worked more on the foreign intelligence matters. You recently wrote that the Church Committee experienced of your Church Committee experience is its important we recognize the extraordinary power the United States has in the international respect for our constitutional principles. But it often seems in times of crisis we forget that power. Why is that . I think the phrase in times of crisis. We cede we being the other branches of government, particularly the congress cede to the executive branch great powers. If we are under assault or perceive ourselves to be under assault. The problem is that then encourages administrations to, i wouldnt say generate crisis, but to elevate a crisis to acquire power. This is where congress is most under pressure to do its job and to ask questions. Not to undermine executive authority but to defend the constitution. And protect the American People. Again, as i said there and ive said many times in other places, those of us who have had a chance to travel the world know we are being watched by not only leaders in foreign governments, but people on the street. And they watch us not only for the kind of comical excesses that we exhibit, but the degree to which we live up to who we claim to be. The American People and their president s and others claim high standards for this country then when we dont live up to those, this isnt missed by people around the world. They see that. And its not only kind of hypocrisy, its used by our opponents to say see they claim one thing and do another. Fritz, you have written a book on secrecy. How does government secrecy undermine the power of our constitutional structure and our democratic process . I can pick up exactly on what gary said. The heart of american democracy is that the people should be involved. Thats what were about. James madison said the in a democracy, Public Opinion is the true sovereign. And the problem is that we have over the last 60 years, 60 plus years, weve gone into a secrecy society, a secrecy culture where the norm is to keep it away from the people instead of striving to get it to the people. And that is totally inconsistent with the values upon which this country was built. Another one of the myths i think that has developed is the idea that the Church Committee investigation or another type of comprehensive investigation is about playing got you. Its only about trying to find the abuses and wag a finger. Vice president mondale . I think one of the greatest strengths exhibited about the work of the Church Committee is how that report has endured. No one challenged accuracy of our findings. I have not heard one serious scholar say this is is not right, so we got our facts right, and it was not just a got you disclosure, it contained a range of remedies that were designed to prevent recurrence of these abuses. The two intelligence committees, which hadnt been there before, the foreign Intelligence Surveillance act, the fisa court, the new regulations and rules issued out of the white house. This was was this n