it really is. >> up next on american history tv, u.s. naval college professor john maurer talked about winston churchill's relationship with american presidents throughout his career. they examined churchill's changing attitude toward the united states and how this influenced his rapport with american presidents including teddy roosevelt, calvin coolidge, and franklin roosevelt. posted by the new york historical society, this program is about 90 minutes. professor maurer: i want to thank dale and allen and jenna and anna for supporting me -- jenna, yeah, of the new york historical society again for inviting me back to give a talk. i will be talking about the relationship of churchill to american presidents. churchill knew a great number of them, had opinions about these american presidents, and they had opinions about him, as you are going to see. so, what i'm going to be talking about was how leaders reflect on other leaders and think about leaders and also to look at anglo american relations, the relationship between britain and the united states over a long period of time, over 40-some years at the beginning of each -- at the beginning of the 20th century. churchill, winston churchill had a long relationship with the united states. going back to his mom. jeanette jerome, jennie jerome, born in brooklyn. an american. i hear brooklyn is here. [laughter] very good. while in europe, and expatriate family, jenny fell in love and married lord randolph churchill which is winston churchill's father. a member of the british aristocracy. here she is, a portrait of her as a 1920 -- as a 19 or 20-year-old which was married to randolph. churchill was born in 1874. she was born in 1854. there you see young winston with his loving mother. he is about four years old there. look at how he is dressed. what an embarrassing portrait for a statesman, right? [laughter] well, churchill wrote in his autobiography that he was a -- in his autobiography "my early life" that he was a troubled boy in the sense that he caused trouble for others. he said, i was called a troublesome boy. there he is, about 14. you see that scowl. wow. does he look like that? [laughter] look at those two. 50 years difference, but boy they look alike, don't they? you can see the resemblance between the two, the young teenager and the statesman that stood up to hitler. ok, that pugnacious, troublesome boy, who grew up to be a statesman who gave trouble to people like hitler. well, churchill's mom, the letters she would write to winston churchill. at school. this is what she wrote at one point when she saw some of churchill's grades. look at that letter. wow. scolding. insult to your intelligence. it is that thoughtlessness of yours which is your greatest enemy. these words may sound harsh, but actually churchill's mother was one of his greatest supporters through her life and churchill always looked back and had fond memories remembrances of his , mother, even though she did write these letters to goad him to do better, to push himself. and indeed churchill and his , younger brother jack were two very, very successful leaders. what ever we see in this letter, whatever context we see, the product of the parenting worked out rather well. well, here is churchill as a young man. he started off as a soldier, graduate from sandhurst. he saw action in cuba where he was an observer in the rebellion that took place against spanish rule in cuba. he also saw action on the northwest frontier of india, today modern-day pakistan along the afghan border. he saw action in 1898 in egypt along the sudan, and in 1900 he saw action in south africa, in what is known as the boer war. here is a young man, by his 26 year by 1900, has seen a great , deal of combat. has been in a great many situations where he could have been killed and has killed people as well. well, because he was a war hero in the boer war, he became a celebrity. and he wrote about his experiences. not only was young winston a soldier he was also a highly , paid journalist. he wrote about his experiences on the northwest frontier, india, africa, and also about the boer war. he was such a celebrity, he was able to be elected to parliament in 1900. and so, he entered into parliament as a political figure. because churchill, while he was a good soldier, admired the military and could envision a life of being a soldier or military leader, his true ambition was to go into politics. well in 1900, because he was a , celebrity, he was able to arrange a speaking tour to come to the united states and talk about his experiences in south africa in the boer war. this is what he looked like in 1900 when he came to the united states. now, well in the united states -- while in the united states he , was introduced by senator depew of new york to none other than president mckinley. so my talk this morning has been mislabeled. it really is from mckinley to roosevelt. churchill wrote back to his mother that he was very impressed by president mckinley. of course president mckinley was a veteran of the american civil war, fought at the battle of antietam. churchill knew that and had a great deal of respect for president mckinley. while in the united states he , also met theodore roosevelt. now roosevelt, as you are going to see, did not form a very good impression of winston churchill. they went to a dinner party together and this is what the odore roosevelt had to say about the experience. he found churchill to be a rude young man. roosevelt wrote to his son, that he hates it when a man of light -- when someone obliges him to behave like a swine to prevent that other person from behaving like a swine. why was he angry at churchill? i had to ask him to say goodbye to his hostess. he was going to go away from the dinner party without saying -- thank you his hostess. and notice this, take that cigar out of your mouth, too. roosevelt did not form a good impression of churchill. indeed many people who met churchill for the first time did not form a good impression. churchill was someone that grew on you. the more you knew him, the more you saw his talents. well, the great war, the great war of 1914-18, the first great -- the first world war. churchill, at africa of the first world war churchill was -- at the outbreak of the first world war churchill was , the civilian and head of the royal navy. our equivalent is the secretary of the navy. he took up that position in 1911. he was 40 years old. november 30, 1914, he turned 40 years old. this is a painting of him in his late 30's. here is a young man with considerable responsibility for the security of the british empire. to make sure the royal navy is strong and able to defend britain from invasion, to keep open the sea lines. that brought in food to britain. he was a very successful first lord of the admiralty in the first world war. in preparing the royal maybe for war. during the july crisis of when 1914, the first world war broke out, churchill understood the danger the british fleet was in. the germans might launch a surprise attack, much like the japanese launched a surprise attack against the americans at the outbreak of the second world war. churchill was alert to the danger of a surprise attack on the british fleet. and so during the july crisis, he was insistent that the fleet be kept mobilized and deployed to a workstation where the germans could not find it, so they could not launch of surprise attack. here is the grand fleet, the main fleet of the royal navy off to war stations. so, the first world war did not begin with a surprise attack. -- surprise attack on the british fleet. theodore roosevelt was very impressed by this, by churchill's actions during the july crisis, ensuring the british fleet was not caught unawares. so, theodore roosevelt wrote to one of his british friends, are thoroughly, and he wrote, i have never liked churchill, but in view of what he did in preparing the fleet for war and ensuring it was not caught by surprise by the germans extend to him my , congratulations. again, roosevelt understood the stakes for britain. to lose its fleet would be a disaster for britain. churchill's actions helped reserve britain's ability to fight the war against tyranny. -- against germany. churchill right away understood that the united states would be an important player, even though it still was not yet in the war. so, less than one month into the war, he is giving interviews to american journalist. -- journalists. in the new york times, you can see this interview from 1914. churchill is trying to alert americans -- again less than a month into the first world war -- trying to alert americans to what is at stake. he is highlighting this is an ideological war. a war the between militarism, a german military dictatorship and democracy. the war has been started, in churchill's opinion, by the prussian military. the stakes are democracy. -- the stakes are that of militarism against democracy. a great collision. he is highlighting the ideological dimensions. there is wonderful language in this interview. he says the democratic nations of the world -- what does he mean by that? where peoples on the government and not the government owns the people. that has echoes of lincoln doesn't it? that is what americans should understand what is at stake here. who do they want to see when this war? and "by the way, i'm half american." highlight that to the american public as well. again, churchill is proud of his american heritage. during the war itself he highlighted to the british public how important the united states could be in the war. in a speech that he gave in september 1917, 1 of the lines in the speeches say, a, how is -- hey, how is britain going to win the war against germany? this is the first world war. a. the letter a. airplanes and america. if you want to understand winston churchill's strategy in the second world war, keep this in mind. there is continuity. between the first world war and the second world war. churchill understands and any contest, any conflict with germany, either imperial germany or nazi germany, britain will need the united states to prevail in such a war. there you see churchill's wife commenting churchill behind him. i like this photograph, because it shows him making a point. -- clementine churchill behind him. i like this photograph, because it shows him making a point. you see how one hand is being hammered into the other hand. i also like that hat. [laughter] very much the style of the first world war. behind the scenes -- this is what churchill was saying publicly. behind the scenes, he was saying the same thing. this is admiral sims. he was the president of the royal navy war college. during the war, he was sent to be in command of american naval forces in europe. he was headquartered in london. this is a photograph of admiral sims. while in london, and this is a letter he wrote to his wife -- he met lady randolph churchill and had dinner with her. there is a photograph of her during the period of the first world war. she is in her young 60's there. this is how churchill's mother looked at the time. and he met -- a long and interesting talk, he records in -- sims records in this letter to his wife. he says, the allies would be beaten. in other words, germany would win -- if america had not come in. when you read these letters to his wife and his pulitzer prize winning book, "victory at sea," which he wrote after the war he , said that he felt that britain was winning the war until he went there and saw how many german u-boats were sinking british ships. the situation was worse than he imagined. churchill had saved -- had said to admiral sims, highlighting how important the united states is for britain to prevail against germany and germany would win this war had the united states not comment. -- had the united states not come in. the united states support for the allies was decisive in turning the tide against germany. imperial germany was defeated by this coalition of allied and associated powers -- we were not part of the allies. woodrow wilson did not want us to be a formal ally. we were and associated power associated with the allies. the united states deployed a large army to france in 1918. over 2 million american soldiers were in france by the end of the war in 1918. the american army in france was bigger than the french army in france by the end of 1918. again that gives you some idea , of the magnitude of the american commitment to this war. this is a big transformation. up to this point, the united states had not played such a huge role in the world scene. but the first world war showed the great military potential of the united states, the ability to deploy an ocean away -- ♪ over there ♪ 2 million american soldiers. here at the end of the war, you see a poster for a mass meeting in new york from december 7, 1918. what does this show? well, there is britannia, the female personification of britain, holding the tribe. arm in arm with uncle sam, the sword unsheathed and the lion and the eagle. side-by-side, the united eight -- the united states and britain together had won the war. and if they stay together, they can enforce the peace and make sure this is the last great war. that there will no longer be another great war. as we know, that does not happen. after the first world war, one thing that happens is that the united states and britain fall out with each other on this question of who is going to hold the trident? was it the united states or britain? which country was going to be the leading naval power of the world? this is part of the history of international relations of the period between the two world wars that is not well known today. i want to highlight this because this is one of the major irritants, points of contention between the united states and britain between the two world wars. about what size should each country's fleet be relative to -- should be relative to the other? should britain remained the dominant naval power? or should the united states be on par -- at least equal with that of britain? so, a naval rivalry emerges between britain and the united states after the first world war. churchill, after the first world war, the british government holds an election and this is churchill going back to his seat, his parliamentary seat in the scottish industrial fishing city of dundee up in the north and here he is delivering a speech at the end of november 1918. the war was over on the western front for a couple weeks. there you see churchill speaking to his constituency, and in the speech, he highlights the importance of british naval power for winning the war. he says, nothing you can dream up, anything that people will tell you -- no arguments from other speeches, no appeals however seductive -- in a moment, you will see who is offering seductive appeals -- much lead you to abandon naval supremacy. britain has to keep a hold of that trident, because britain's security might depend on it. a league of nations is no substitute for the supremacy of the british fleet. now who was calling for a league of nations at this time? woodrow wilson, the american president. what did woodrow wilson think about this? wilson was coming over to europe to take part in the peace negotiations and on the way to europe, he heard about churchill's speech. it was reported to him. the speech came in, and the substances that the royal navy should remain supreme. wilson said, well, if that is what they think, we can build the biggest navy in the world because we have the money, the men, and resources to do it. the united states should have a powerful navy, at least as strong, if not stronger, than that of written. britain should limit its fleet. there are alternatives to the supremacy of the royal navy. the league of nations. look at this language from president wilson. again, this is recorded by one of his secretaries in her diary. if the british do not limit their fleet, there will be another, more terrible, and bloody war and what will the result be? england will be wiped off the face of the map. boy, that is tough language. churchill obviously hoped wilson there. by the way at the reception at buckingham palace, churchill and wilson got together. wilson said to churchill, well mr. churchill, what is the story about your royal navy? wilson told his secretary that churchill was stunned and said nothing. imagine that. a speechless churchill. [laughter] professor maurer: again, i highlight in a naval rivalry emerging between britain and the united states. during the first world war as part of the preparedness movement woodrow wilson , championed the big navy, that the united states should build a big navy. during this period of time that the united states takes off, legislation in august 1916 to build a navy in the pacific and the atlantic. look at this two dollar bill from 1918. isn't that remarkable? i always say to the admirals i meet that we should try to get the president to put an aircraft carrier on the $20 bill. if you want to highlight the role of the navy. again, in this period of time of wartime preparedness, the message that the united eight -- the united states has to build up a powerful navy was being received by the american people favorably. woodrow wilson before the war accord in a speech in st. louis highlighted that the u.s. navy , had to be the greatest navy in the world. but britain had the greatest navy in the world. a rising power with economic strength translating that economic power to military power to naval power. well, wilson's successor, president harding. wilson and harding did not agree on many things. two very different people. one thing they disagreed on was the league of nations. harding was opposed to it. there was one thing harding and wilson agreed on. here is a headline from "the new york times" after the election of 1920. president harding went on a cruise, a vacation to the caribbean. they report that he comes back with a nice suntan. fans of the show "justified" can see a story line that looks very much like the story of that show. federal agents in a gun battle with moonshiners in the kentucky hills. wow. ok. well harding gave a speech about , american naval aspirations and here is that speech recorded. wow. what a microphone that is. so different and what we have today. i'm glad i didn't have to talk into one of those. here is part of the speech. harding once to a claim that the united states should be the most eminent, most eminent of the maritime nations. the united states has to build up a navy equal to its aspirations. and no nation has ever been a big player in world history that has not had a prominent place in maritime affairs. so harding, the republican successor to woodrow wilson, is championed this navy. the recording of harding's speech made it across the atlantic and was listened to by churchill and by his boss, the british prime minister lloyd george. churchill, when they heard this speech, they just went crazy. they started to make fun of harding. harding's intonations and the rest. this is what churchill had to say about harding's speech. american politicians themselves -- give themselves the platitudes. that is not true, is it? [laughter] professor maurer: this is what american politicians feel comfortable saying. the sun shown yesterday upon this great and glorious country. it shines today and will shine tomorrow. applause. american politicians do not want to say things that are too controversial. they have to say these platitudes according to winston churchill. lloyd george, his boss, the prime minister, was even more severe. he had harding's speech about the u.s. holding up its navy, no -- made him feel he would upon his shirt rather than allow america to dominate the seas. he would pawn his shirt rather than allow america to dominate the seas. again, the hostility emerging between britain and the united states over who is going to have the world's strongest navy. harding's successor calvin coolidge was also a champion of the big navy. he put in place to build a large number of american cruisers. and on november 11, 1928, 10 years after the armistice, calvin coolidge gave a message to the american people in which he said the knighted states had -- the united states had to build up a powerful navy to be strong against britain. this infuriated winston churchill. there is coleridge with his dogs. this is what churchill had to say about coleridge in a memorandum to the conservative government. coolidge as just explained the viewpoint of a new england back woodsman. that is harsh. that hurts. the crude and amateurish character of coolidge's remarks -- well, and his successors will have an opportunity to do something else. who said "i choose not to run." he made an announcement in 1927. he is succeeded by herbert hoover. there is someone who agrees with churchill on this. and that is franklin d. roosevelt, who in 1928 wrote an , article in the journal of foreign affairs about the united states position in the world and if the democrats are able to control the white house, what their foreign policy would be. here is a photograph of roosevelt at the time, when he was running for governor in new york and wins in 1928 running for governor. in this article, this is one of the passages from it. again, he takes a dig at the coolidge administration. coolidge is building up a navy at a time when there is no real threat to the united states. he uses the word " unparalleledlly secure." for those of you who play word games, unparallel at the -- unparallel eardelly, that's a lot of words. boy, that is hard to say. i have been practicing that. why build up a big navy? all you need is a police force in the world's oceans. there are no great rivals out there. roosevelt goes on to say, only admirals who have an interest in a lot of ships and you are excited about having more ships they are the only ones who , consider the possibility seriously of war between japan and the united states, for example. of course, roosevelt would be president of the united states in 1941 when we were at war with -- will we go to war against japan. clearly his crystal ball is not very clear in 1928. nonetheless, in 1920, that makes a lot of sense. that was the reality. the great powers were not that threatening to each other. in a few years, that would change. by the way, i want to highlight that word invasion there. you will see in a few minutes in a roosevelt speech, asking about a declaration of war against japan on december 8, 1941. he uses that word “invasion.” that is one of the words in roosevelt's vocabulary he uses. well, churchill is beside himself with coolidge and the naval aspirations of the united states. what did he say about americans? “they are arrogant, fundamentally hostile against to us, they want to dominate world politics. britain should dominate world politics, and the big navy talk, all of those who want to tilt up -- build up a powerful american fleet let's call them up and see , if the americans really want to spend money when challenging britain as the world's leading naval power.” in the cabinet memorandum, churchill wrote this, “it is quite right that we should say there is no possibility of war between britain and the united states. it is unthinkable.” but everybody knows that is not true. not true. might be low probability but it , could happen. however for was an disastrous such a war would be, britain does not want to be in the power of the united states. again, a rivalry here between a rising power in the united -- in the world stage and a status quo of power on the world stage. winston churchill, by the way, is one of the most problematic -- most pro-american and british statesman you are going to find. but this rivalry on naval matters shows something about churchill, how he believed that britain had to maintain a strong navy if it was going to defend itself in the world, because the british empire stretched around the world. it was linked together by sea lines of communication. people depended upon foodstuffs raw materials, ships from around , the world, so that britain, in his view, needed to have for its security the strongest navy in the world. well, if you think churchill's views are harsh, i want to take a little diversion from my talk about churchill and the american presidents to talk about how planners, military planners, in britain and the united states envisioned what a war between britain and the united states would look like between the two world wars. this is the great war that was never fought. it was imagined. it was gamed out, played out thought about. this shows general douglas macarthur, chief of staff of the u.s. army. he signs off on a war plan for the invasion of. by the way, the american planners planned for a whole number of different types of wars, and they coded countries with colors. blue is always the united states. we are the blue team. black is germany. we are playing black is a war -- war plan black is a war plan against germany. orange was the famous one against japan. red is great britain. crimson is canada. and there is a whole lot. i'm just giving you a sampling. so war planning was devised. -- so war plan red was devised. the army came up with a plan that the united states would need to mobilize 4 million soldiers, deploy four armies up against canada, and these are the relative access into canada to be able to defeat britain. canada was a hostage. it was thought that maybe the canadians would declare themselves neutral in a war between britain and the united states. 4 million soldiers and a big invasion of canada. meanwhile, up in newport, rhode island, where i teach at the naval war college, the naval planners would game out what a sea war would look like between the british and american navies. this is pringle hall, it still exists at the naval college of newport in rhode island. it is now the center for international programs because we have over 200 students from around the world who attend the naval war college at newport but here you should see, and what the planners would do, the navy officers would do, is game out movements of ship in battle. elaborate wargames would be played. and so we can imagine what this war between britain and the united states would look like from these games that were played out, and each move of the game is being recorded. of the games that take place and for the american naval planners while the armies invading canada, it was the royal navy across the atlantic to try to bring reinforcements and support, from britain to canada, and this would lead to a big naval engagement between the u.s. fleet and the british fleet, red against blue, the american battle lines over the atlantic, the british fleet coming across, and it would result in a big battle. now, this was one of the drawings from the naval war college archives of moves of the game. beautifully done on this blue paper which as you can see, the , draftsman, what they did. this is a game from 1924. what you see here is the american fleet moving out of newport, the british fleet coming along and there is going to be a big naval engagement off of sable island as the british were trying to get to halifax, and this is one of the engagements, one of the moves, diagram six, which shows the british fleet and the american fleet fighting each other. again, each move is recorded. i can show you one of these after another like a motion picture to show you what these games were like, and very elaborate games played out. you ask, right, who won? red or blue? i am not going to tell you. [laughter] suspense. spoiler alert. coming to a theater near you. well, the rise of american naval power, economic strength to churchill would britain be able , to stay on as the world's dominant power on the world stage with his rising american power? and to his wife, clementine, he wrote that britain is slowly being forced into the shade by the united states. well, his wife clementine said “here is my advice you, winston. make america like you.” this is from a letter from from mrs. clementine churchill in you 1929. can see the flapper style. try to understand and master america. churchill had a reputation in 1929 as being one of the most hostile british politicians to the united states, this naval rivalry that is driving this and she said, “you have to learn to master the united states, make america like you again,” so in after the general election, 1929, which the conservative party lost, churchill is out of power, he came over on a speaking tour of canada and the the united states. and by september of 1929, he is in hollywood, and there he is with charlie chaplin. he is just struck with l.a., the lights, a carnival. he is drawing these wonderful impressions of the united states and canada from his travel. he made great friends with charlie chaplin. can't help liking him. even though he is a little bolsheviky, a little too left wing in his politics for churchill's liking but , delightful conversation. he also met with william randolph hearst, the great media baron and with the entertainment industry, and churchill was very impressed with what he had seen in l.a., and the american media and also the entertainment industry. and while in l.a., look what happens. what a fish story. and it is true. liquid he caught. -- look what he caught. this is from “the l.a. times.” 188 pound marlin swordfish. he went out there the first day, put his line down, and look what he brought back in. wow, that was incredible. anyway, it was reported in “the l.a. times” with churchill. he has a good fish story to tell there. well, coming back, he went to washington, d.c., where he met president herbert hoover in the white house. he had an office call with the president and here is winston churchill leaving the white house after his meeting with herbert hoover. we do not have any idea of what hoover thought about churchill at this time, so i have no evidence to present. i know that churchill both admired and respected hoover but at the same time feared hoover, because he felt that hoover was presiding over the big boom of the american economy. well, of course, that was not going to last. in new york city, at the hotel commodore, with 2000 guests in the audience, churchill gave speeches across the united states, but one of the last speaches he gave before he returned to the u.k. was here in new york city, and he addressed front and center the naval rivalry question, and he has now changed his tune somewhat. his view is if the united states builds up a great navy, that is probably a good thing. it will help britain in the long run, and this rivalry should go away, and one of the sentences in his speech, which i just love, it is so churchillian, “what is the purpose of speaking -- what is the point of speaking the same language if we cannot disagree from time to time?” so you can see this trip to the united states has had a big impact on winston churchill, and he is trying to reach out to the americans to say, “let's put this naval rivalry behind us. it is not something that should lead to a contest between two countries. in fact, the countries should be working together and not the cross purposes with each other." he wrote a whole series of articles about his trip to canada and back to the united states to the newspaper “the daily telegraph,” highlighting something that we all realize today, and it was true back then too, which is that the whole , national economic system is caught up in the united states -- in the well-being of the united states economy. churchill was here, by the way when the crash occurred and lost a great deal of money. so he went back to england in 1929 poorer than when he arrived. well, churchill wanted to come back to the united states again for a speaking tour, in part to recoup some of the losses he had in the stock market, and in 1931, he came back to the united states. unfortunately, before the speaking tour could occur getting out of a cab, looking , the wrong way, he got clobbered and hit by a car. it could have killed him. it was estimated by his friend frederick lindemann, the oxford physicist, that the impact of the car was the equivalent of falling from a two-story building. powerful. here he is being released from the hotel. again, front-page “new york times” news that he was hit over at 70th street and fifth avenue, taken to the hospital. fortunately for churchill, he had wonderful medical care. he had dr. otto pickhardt, and remember, this was prohibition and so dr. pickhardt certified -- churchill needed only the best medicine and so dr. , pickhardt certified that churchill needed the use of alcoholic spirits, especially at meal times, and the quantity that is naturally indefinite but the minimum requirement should be 250 cubic centimeters. now that is a doctor we all can appreciate. [laughter] trying to relieve pain and suffering. well, churchill wrote about his experience in “the daily mail” for an article that earned him a great deal of money. today, it would probably have been about $80,000 or $90,000 is what he had earned of writing of his experience of being hit by a car in new york city, and he took the blame completely. he did not try to place the blame on anyone else. “i foolishly looked the wrong way when i got out of the cab.” well, the new york he came back to was very different from the one he last left. these iconic photographs of newsreel films of the great depression, look at these men, beaten down, without hope, none looking up -- only a few looking up at the camera. what despair is there, what a tremendous, tremendous economic catastrophe, a man-made catastrophe. well, this is leading to franklin d. roosevelt becoming president in a landslide over hoover. hoover did not preside over the great boom. instead, he presided over the great crash. now, in 1934, churchill wrote an article about fdr, looking at the early days, the early year and a half of the roosevelt presidency, and he had formed a very favorable impression of roosevelt. he writes in this newspaper article, "my view of the presidency is that roosevelt will rank among the leading presidents.” why is that? these are the attributes that churchill saw in roosevelt. generous sympathy for the underdog social justice, , composure at a time of crisis, that puts him in the class of famous men of action. roosevelt's son, james roosevelt, took a tour of england in 1933, and he visited churchill at churchill's country house chartwell, and after dinner, they played a game. and the game was what was your biggest wish? what would you like to have if you could have a wish come true? and churchill said to president roosevelt's son that he would like to be prime minister. a couple wishes maybe. three wishes i don't know. , he would like to be prime minister, again ambition, to be the leading political figure but he wanted to be in daily telephone communication with the president because the president and the prime minister working together, there was nothing that the two countries could not accomplish. well, this is right at a time where the great depression and economic downturn leads to a new war. look at this photograph of hitler coming to power in , january 30 1933 germany, just a short while before president roosevelt becomes president. what a creepy photograph. look at those eyes. look at him he has his arms , around this young boy. he is, what, 12 years old? he is stealing away the youth of germany. who is most disaffected by the economic downturn? young people who cannot find jobs, young people who are desperately unhappy, and here is hitler giving them a message winning them over, that younger generation. well, we can be pretty certain of what happened to this young boy. probably going to die on the eastern front at stalingrad, caught up by the fuehrer. sent on wars of conquest. wow, that photograph right there is so demonic. that captures the way the hitler movement in germany. well, churchill wanted to come back to the united states to give a lecture tour, but the international situation in the late 1930's was so desperate, he couldn't, so he tried to reach out to the united states by radio. in november 1938, he gives a speech that is broadcast by nbc radio network around the united states, and churchill wrote all of his own speeches, by the way, and this shows what churchill would read from. he would memorize the speeches but always kept the script in front of him, as well, so he would not lose his place, and in the speech, he highlights that given the danger of nazi germany that britain has to arm itself and america has to arm. the united states cannot be oblivious to the danger of hitler's germany, and he also wants to highlight something he highlighted in the first world war, the ideological struggle, a struggle between militarism, extremist nationalism, and democracy. arms are not sufficient by themselves. we must add the power of ideas. people are motivated by ideas. stand up and fight, to take a stand for what they believe in. and the american people have to understand the danger that is being posed by this new extremist, militarized regime in germany. well, the message, of course many in the united states did not want to hear that message, including william randolph hearst, who churchill had met. -- who churchill had met in he 1929. first said in newspapers “english propaganda is flooding the united states.” subtle and true. churchill's role is wrong about the stakes here for america. the united states should not be involved in european affairs. that led the united states to the first great war, and we would never again take part in another great european war. that is the hearst message. well, the war that churchill feared broke out in 1939. germany moved against poland wars of conquest, germany moving north, overrunning denmark norway, but also the , assault in france in 1940 and the defeat of france. the international situation has been changed around dramatically. nazi germany, through these conquests, has established its rule over europe. -- it's dominion over europe. what is next? britain? in there you see the head of the german air force looking across straight towards britain, herman -- and churchill highlighted for the british and american people that upon this battle, the battle of britain, survival of christian civilization is at stake. there is an existential struggle. who is going to win out, the liberal democracies or nazism? that is what is at stake here. stakes extremely high. and britain has the fight, take a stand even though it is isolated, with no major allies has to take a stand, and, again, that means that germany is going to move against britain. this battle of britain. because hitler has to try to defeat britain. if britain can hold out -- and -- there was hope of defeating nazi germany and in his finest , speech, called “the finest hours” speech, churchill is underscoring how important it is for the united states, the stakes are here for the united states, not just britain because if britain goes down what will happen? a new dark age made sinister. so britain has to stand up, and this would be their finest hour. well, churchill, behind the rhetoric, is asking the military leaders, what are our hopes of being able to defeat nazi germany? to be able to hold on in this battle of britain? and the british chiefs write with no secret appreciation, things i have highlighted in it, that britain can hold on as long as the united states provides support. if not, look what they say. “we cannot continue the war with any chance of success,” and the other big caveat that the british chiefs highlight is will the british people, will the morale stay high under air assault of german air attack? well here on the headlines after churchill's speech. britain will not surrender, but that means that the luftwaffe, the german air force, is fighting the battle of written. this is one of the greatest turning points of the second world war. here you see over the east end of london, in greenwich, a german bomber flying over in daylight over the capital. this is a scary sight, when you do not have control over your own airspace, and a german bombing of reddish cities and airfields. between august 1940 and december 1940, about 25,000 british civilians lost their lives in german air assaults. again, we have lived through september 11, and this is the equivalent of eight september 11 attacks over that period of time. buckingham palace was hit. this is a photograph taken on september 11, 1940. there you see the king and queen with winston churchill. house of commons in april 1941 bombed and destroyed. whenever i see this photograph i always think about that fourth airliner on september 11 that went down on september 11. -- that went down in pennsylvania. where was that heading? to the white house? and the people on that airliner fought back, so we do not know where that airliner would have gone. well, fortunately for britain, for churchill, roosevelt was there to support the british. he understood what was at stake. many of his advisers sidewalk -- cited more with william randolph hearst, that the united states should defend itself in the hemisphere, not supply support in britain, but roosevelt overruled them. he thought it was important to form a coalition with britain, and he worked to support britain even before the united states was in the war. why? because he gets it. he understands this is an ideological struggle, a struggle for the supremacy of human rights, as he said. well, britain did not fall in so 1940, hitler attacked the soviet union. june 22, 1941, that is the equivalent of pearl harbor for the peoples of soviet union, a surprise attack of nazi germany on the soviet union. in the immediate aftermath roosevelt understands, as does churchill, that the german attack on the soviet union provides an opportunity for the -- to form big coalition against nazi germany, so in august 1941, let's get the chronology straight here several months , august 1941, before pearl harbor, churchill and roosevelt are meeting off the coast of newfoundland. instead of the big battle of sable island, you have american and british warships getting together, bringing the leaders of these two states together to think about what our aim should be and our strategy for defeating nazi germany. religious ceremony that was held aboard a battleship with the -- prince of wales with the , president and the prime minister there, american and british crews together headlines in “the new york times,” joint steps. they released the atlantic charter, which has eight elements to it. number six is the most important. again, this was before pearl harbor, august 1941. this is a public document, after the final destruction of nazi tyranny. the united states is not in the war, but we are calling for what we would today call “regime change,” and it would end this noxious regime, and with that, the british prime minister and president hope to establish a peace, a lasting peace, again freedom from fear and want. world war does come to america as we know it, pearl harbor. some of you have seen this before in other talks i have given, but for those who have not seen this this shows how the , unexpected can occur. this is the program for the army-navy game in november 1941 on the cover. -- on the right is the cover. inside the program is a photograph of the battleship arizona, plowing into the waves. and there is a caption underneath that photograph on the left. let me read it to you. “the uss arizona as she plows into a huge swell.” it is significant that despite the claims of air enthusiasts, no battleship has yet been sunk by bombs. this was another creepy photograph. less than two weeks later at pearl harbor, the arizona is sunk by bombers, destroyed magazine exploded, over 1000 men killed. there is the arizona today. of all of the battleships in the u.s. navy, taking out the arizona, this is what the ancient greeks would call hubris, pride, the gods come back and strike you down for making statements like this. well, the attack on pearl harbor brings the united states into war with war with japan, and then hitler declares war, in -- war on the united states. 1941, president roosevelt before a joint session of congress asks for a declaration of war, and he had his speechwriter write up a speech for him, and he then changed it, and this is fascinating. look at the first sentence. “yesterday, december 7, 1941, a day that will live in world history.” look how roosevelt has changed it. “yesterday, december 7, 1941, a -- a pause, the date which will live in infamy.” the president is owning this speech. he is using his own language. he understands how important it is to say something to get beyond the vanilla, and, hence we remember this speech and december 7 as the day of infamy, very powerful rhetoric there but also, he adds in by hand this paragraph. “no matter how long it may take to overcome this premeditated invasion.” the word i highlighted in the 1928 article. well, churchill came to the united states in december 1941 and on december 26, the day after christmas, 1941, he gave a speech to the joint session of congress, and in that speech, he gave a tribute to his mom. as you can see, he wrote it by hand, “i wish my mom could be here to see this.” he also told a joke right after. he said, hey, “i can't help but reflecting that if my father had been an american and my mother british, i might have been here in congress already.” [laughter] well, this is how we remember these two leaders, right? during the war, churchill and roosevelt had disagreements. their staff, their advisers had disagreements. but the united states britain, , world history, we are fortunate that these two leaders were in charge, because while they saw things from different perspectives, nonetheless, they charted the destiny of their two countries, kept them together, forged the grand alliance that was critical for the defeat of nazi germany. there was nothing to be preordained -- preordained by this. it could have gone wrong terribly wrong. but because of churchill and roosevelt, these two great leaders, and they were able to pool and harness the resources to bring together a great coalition to defeat germany. well, when roosevelt died in april of 1941, churchill gave a eulogy for him. and what did he have to say about roosevelt? in war, he raised the strength might and glory of the great republic to a height never attained by any nation in history, and so, today, we celebrate these two leaders, who in a very desperate time, were able to lead their countries to victory over a terrible, terrible foe. thank you. [applause] john maurer: questions and/or comments, please. >> thank you. you stopped with the relationship between churchill and roosevelt, but i wonder if you have any thoughts on the relationship between churchill and roosevelt's successor, president truman, and his relationship with president eisenhower, who he must have known very, very well? john maurer: very good question. as you know, i'm quite loquacious and ran over already, but you are quite right. he had a close relationship with president truman. he met with truman in 1945. truman, of course, invited him over to give a speech in missouri which became known as the iron curtain speech of 1946. he had a high regard for churchill and churchill had a high regard for truman. at the end of the war, the coalition government that had been in power broke apart, and labour won a big, landslide victory, so churchill was no longer prime minister, so he was out of office, so during most of the truman administration, he was not in power, though in 1951 when he came back to power, he was a big supporter of truman and the american effort in korea and was also concerned about the soviet threat to western europe. he had a relationship with eisenhower that was more rocky more stormy, and churchill hoped after the death of stalin to try to open in 1953, to open up negotiations with the soviet union to see whether there was a possibility of bringing about a more stable peace in europe rather than the division of europe along the iron curtain. in the united states, our leaders were more dubious about that. they did not think a summit with stalin's successors would produce what churchill thought . and they thought that the results of such summitry may weaken the west, weaken the atlantic alliance, and we get nato. in 1955, his main purpose was to try to be a great victor in peace as well as in war and to try to avoid the cold war and a thermonuclear war. his last speech was about nuclear weapons. a major speech in parliament. his relationship was a little more rocky, and churchill was disappointed that the americans would not back him up, and so the great summit between american, soviet, and british leaders never took place. again, we do not know what the result would have been. one more over here, or however we want to do this. over here. >> in your research -- >> [indiscernible] one question. >> right. right. in your research, did you find out what was the guiding principle behind the league of nations to divide the ottoman empire? john maurer: yes, ending we have the first world war as ending november 11, 1918, the western front, but the reality is the first world war continued in many ways in eastern europe and also the middle east, and you only have a settlement in the middle east coming in 1922 and 1923, so there is a great deal of violence still in eastern europe and in the middle east, and churchill played a big role in trying to fashion a settlement in the middle east as colonial secretary. modern-day iraq is, in part, a creation of his at that time so, yes, churchill played a big role in the settlement after the first world war in the middle east. >> thank you. john maurer: over here. >> thank you very much for an incredible statement of history. can i ask you to apply your knowledge of what you think today should be our naval power? john maurer: good question. in response to this, i have to say that i am a government employee. anything that i say is my own personal opinion and not that of the u.s. government or the department of defense, the navy department, or the naval war college. now, having said that, the united states i think, as american people are not as aware of how important naval power is in the world. and the united states is being increasingly challenged, especially in asia, by china and china is developing a powerful capability to fight in on the seas, so in many ways you are seeing a replay of earlier naval rivalries, like what happened between britain and germany, or as i was talking about, britain and the united states. i don't think the american public -- i think we take for granted our position in the world. i think the world is getting increasingly more dangerous, and i think we need to be spending more on the navy. i know that sounds like coming from some he works for the navy, the less i know that sounds like i'm coming from someone who works for the navy but i think , we should have a greater appreciation. over here. >> in your discussion in the rivalry with the united states and england, you did not have time to talk about the 5531 ratio, and i would like to know how that affected the united states and great britain. john maurer: yes, in 1921 in 1922 -- in 1921, president harding called a conference, which became known as the washington conference, from november 1921 into february 1922 to try to settle these differences about naval rivalry, and so they came up with a formula of 5-5-3, which you mentioned. five being britain and the united states would have parity, equality with each other in the largest warships afloat, ships over 10,000 tons displacement, battleships and aircraft carriers. japan was accorded a 60% ratio the three. japanese naval leaders resented that a great deal, so part of the war history of these naval rivalries are that japan's leaders believed they should have parity, a navy as strong as britain and the united states. our rationale was united states -- was the united states and britain were global powers world powers, hence needing larger navies for their security, whereas japan was a regional power focused in asia. at the time this was actually a , good deal for japan to get a 60% ratio, because japanese industry finances were not up to building up as strong a navy as britain and the united states, but these arms control agreements paradoxically create friction with japan in particular that help explain the radicalization of the japanese naval officers that leads to pearl harbor. thank you. >> thank you for a very fine lecture. i happen to be a historian of india, and you underplayed, for lack of time, the british empire as one of the constants for churchill. even in the statements and letters you used he talked about , the endurance for a thousand years of the british empire, and in the atlantic charter, the self-government of nations. however, churchill did not think this applied to india where f.d.r. did. can you pick up the theme of the british empire running through this a little bit? john maurer: a very important question, as you said, because churchill did not want to preside over the dissolution of the british empire. he was a believer of the british empire as being a moral force for good in the world, and his advisers were saying the empire means independence for india and anyone who wants to vote by their feet for getting out of the british empire. and churchill's response was we will worry about that after the war. one of the irritants during the war is that churchill was being bugged constantly, goaded, by roosevelt to get more self-government, a move towards independence for india, so it was an important irritants. churchill was a firm believer of the british empire, and he saw this war as trying to defend the british empire and maintain britain's place in the world. it is no longer the strongest power in the world, but strong relative to everybody else relative to everybody else except the united states. yes? >> didn't great britain control the seas from when they defeated the armada until after world war ii? john maurer: british leaders political and naval, were very proud of the naval history and heritage going back to the armada, as you said, and defeating napoleon and the french. britain's naval leaders were also gaming out a war against the united states, and a remarkable thing is it very much mirrors what we were doing. they were going to send a fleet over, and it was likely to lead to a big naval battle, and they were going to try to reinforce canada and try to hold on against the united states invasion, so the british leaders and politicians, like that slide i put up there they saw themselves as they should maintain their leadership, as it did stretch back to elizabeth the first. by the way, just one quick point. the canadians also planned in case they were invaded, and their top military planner was a colonel, an army colonel, who had the name, believe it or not, buster brown. [laughter] any way, colonel brown said if the united states mobilizes, they would conquer canada. so what his response was whenever it looked like war was imminent, the troops would be quickly mobilized and try to attack the united states. try to seize bismarck, north dakota, seattle, bismarck, buffalo, and that would be a spoiling attack against the united states. imagine that? ok. thank you. >> you went into detail about america in the second world war but my question is what about america in the first world war? john maurer: naval issues loomed large here, because the germans wanted to close down the seed see lines of communication with the submarine campaign, the u-boats, and the german naval leadership had come to the conclusion that unrestricted submarine warfare, sinking ships on the high seas without any warning to those ships would be able to defeat britain within six months. that was their estimation. now, that meant that they would shoot at ships that had american flags, because that ship might have an american flag on it, but it might not be american. it might be a deception, in violation of international law but it could still be a deception. so the germans launched the submarine campaign, and if wilson had staked his reputation on this, that if germany went ahead with unrestricted summary warfare, he would bring the united states into the war, and so that is what happened on january 9, 19 17. the kaiser and admirals and generals sat down in a big conference, and they said, should we go ahead with this and the kaiser said yes. the admirals wanted it. the generals wanted it. they thought this was the big wonder weapon. as it turned out, it was not. because of convoys, you could protect shipping. you would lose a lot of ships. you would never lose so many that you would lose the war, and the americans coming into the war, boy, one of the things of germany's strategy in foreign policy in the first world war is that germany, a rising power like the united states, manages to turn into its enemies both britain and the united states, and that seals their fate in the first world war. and much of it has to deal with the submarine menace. >> thanks very much. >> thank you again for a wonderful lecture. my question has to do with world war i. the british won the war and said they lost a generation of their finest, young people. the germans lost the war. what did they lose besides the war? john maurer: yes, yes. first of all, britain in the first world war had over 700,000 fatalities, dead, most of them on the western front in france and so much of the commemorations now for the 100th anniversary of the first world war are remembering the western front and the fighting that went on there. interestingly, in the second world war, britain has less than half the fatalities. even though the second world war is longer in duration and the british homeland is under attack they have less than half the , fatalities they had in the first world war. that is because they are not fighting on land against the german army. so britain's casualties in the second world war are fewer than in the first world war. with regard to germany, germany had almost 1,300,000 killed in the first world war, and so one of the consequences of this for germany is that a whole cohort of young men are taken away, and that photograph i show of hitler with the young boy, how many fathers, older brothers, uncles, stabilizing male influences that could have been there are now not there for that young boy, and an alternative voice to that of hitler. so one of the long-term legacies of the first world war ii germany is defeat. what they see is a million peace -- what they see is a humiliating peace treaty imposed on them, but also a german society that is destabilized and prone to an extremist nationalist message, like that of hitler. so i do not see hitler coming to power except for the horrible fatalities of the first world war changing around german society. the germany that went into the first world war and the germany that comes out of the first world war are two different societies. >> thank you. >> thank you for your truthful presentation. i would like to emphasize a fact about the rivalry between great britain and the united states about the navies. was this taking into consideration that the japanese had a powerful fleet? and also, what played a pivotal point in that was the production of aircraft carriers and submarines, which the united states knew about, and the japanese had probably be most -- the most powerful navy in the south pacific, and the germans of course who had very few ships, no carriers, but the british had one carrier, two carriers, and they were relegated around the southern part of south america to defend against that situation. that was one, so that was a pivotal point, i think, with the united states. one fast question. it was said that democracy was the best of the least, no system was good. where did that come from? john maurer: yes, churchill said democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others, and, again, what he is trying to highlight is no form of government is going to be perfect, but of all of the forms of government, this is the one that is the best for humans to organize themselves around, and in the history of the two were wars, it shows democracies can be effective in war in that they won both wars and the cold war too, so i think at times people get down on democracy, and they see the partisan fighting that takes place, and sometimes that can be unhealthy. there is no doubt about that but at the same time, people are able to get caught up in debate, and these things can be openly discussed. churchill understood that for all of the weaknesses, democracies also had great strengths. >> thank you for this. i was fascinated by the war between britain and the united states that did not take place. i recently learned that the calm and carry on slogan is a reference to once germany invades and occupies britain you have to keep calm and carry on. my question is about the personal relationship between roosevelt and churchill. i had been led to believe that they got each other, and they had such commonalities and that that was -- when the chips were down, they understood. they both sang onward christian soldiers. they knew where the other was coming from, and that cleaved them in a way. john maurer: yes, they both had great respect for each other. that does not mean they could not say negative things about each other. there are a lot of comments you can cherry pick to show that they did not get along. and i think too many historians highlight the negative things that are said, whereas i think what is really the case is that these two leaders are in sync with each other, as you say, and one episode in this regard is in the summer of 1942, churchill was over here in the united states in june. and he got word that the fortress of libya had fallen to the germans, a huge military disaster for the british, in other words. they had lost north africa, and this was read out while they were in meetings the british , chiefs, the american chiefs, churchill and roosevelt, so churchill has to admit right there to a coalition partner, we have lost big, and there was silence. and then roosevelt broke the silence by saying, what can we do to help? and churchill said, no other leaders but america would react -- behave like that. instead, they would be calculating how i can take advantage of this. we are partners, but how do i use this to advantage. instead, what can we do to help. churchill and his staff came back. we need tanks if we are going to defeat the german general. american tanks are sent over that play a role in britain winning the battle six months later. so churchill and roosevelt were on a relationship there where they understood that they had to support each other. the were driven to this, but they also liked each other. by the way, one thing churchill did not like about roosevelt was roosevelt's cocktails. when he would go to the white house, and roosevelt had a special cocktail, churchill would say this is terrible, and he actually said to roosevelt, you should not be drinking that. that is too strong stuff. that is the pot calling the kettle black. [laughter] >> professor maurer, thank you for coming today. returning to war plan red and its applicability to u.s.-china relations, it appears china is currently pursuing, it is playing out as another iteration of past naval rivalries. while economically, the united states and china appear to be like an earlier iteration of the united states and britain, china appears to be pursuing a naval strategy more akin to germany before the first world war or even france before the franco-prussian war. what changes in naval strategy what patterns do you think we should follow to potentially overcome, hopefully without fighting, this potential threat? john maurer: yes. that is a good question. in thinking about today, it is useful to look back to the naval rivalries between the first -- before the worst world war and the rise of the japanese power that we talked about earlier because you see the rise in challengers, who are trying to do what we call today asymmetric warfare, be it submarines or carrier aviation as was mentioned in an earlier question. these rising powers are trying to harness technology or new ways of fighting to take down the dominant power. and so the fear today is that china has developed an anti-ship missile, highly accurate, that will be able to take out aircraft carriers. is it as good as it? who knows? the only way we would know is in wartime, and let's hope we don't find out. so china is in many ways following the pattern of many -- other countries. and that it is why it is worthwhile studying these presentence unless -- to study these ore=precedents to gain out these wars that me never occur. up at harvard, there is a political scientist who has looked at rivalries between great powers from the time of the spanish armadas in the 1500's until today, and he has come up with a list of 15 rivalries of rising powers on the world stage and status quo powers trying to defend themselves, and of these 15, he has come to conclusion that 11 out of the 15 resulted in war. now, one of the 15 is the u.s./britain one that did not end in war. but 11 out of 15, so if you are a betting person, you would say there is a two thirds chance with this rivalry between a rising china and the united states, a reigning world leader, that it could lead to war, and again come in response to your question, most americans do not rate the probability of a china-u.s. war that high, and i do not think it is either, i think it is a low probability event. but nonetheless, if such a war were to occur, it is another world war. it is catastrophic, so there are dangers here on the international scene that mirror in ways other rising-powered challenges. >> thank you. >> just a little conspiracy there he on the lusitania. i have been reading it did have armaments on it. there were many american passengers. there was no convoy. churchill later was said to be very -- he was encouraged by the sinking because he said now america is coming in. was there any, you know, thought s about not having -- would a convoy have drawn attention to it, and that is why there was no convoy? john maurer: i am not a big fan of conspiracy theories. this is one, as you say, this is one that has gotten caught up in conspiracies. churchill wanted u.s. support in both world wars. that is the case. no doubt about that. at the same time though, he is not doing weird things to try to trigger war. it is the germans and japanese who were doing things that trigger war. now, the lusitania was not on convoyed for a couple of reasons. convoys were not common. quite the reverse. the second thing is that the lusitania being a big steamer has a high speed. and so it is one of the least of vulnerable ships out there because submarines of this time, they are not the nuclear powered attack ships of today. they do not have high beat, and the lusitania is a big ship. a submarine, when it goes underwater, it has next to knowno speed when it goes underwater, cannot follow, so a submarine might say stop, stop i am going to shoot, and it would just go right by. now, what happened here is that the captain of the lusitania had slowed down his ship off the coast of ireland. he is not zigzagging. he is doing this because he is worried about the timing of coming into the british port. as a consequence he has made , himself vulnerable to the germans. this should never have happened. and the responsibility really does rest on the shoulders of the captain. now, once it happened, churchill is saying, look at this. this is an abomination. this shows exactly what i have been saying about german militarism, and, hence, the united states should be supporting us more. theodore roosevelt, by the way believed the same thing. i am sorry to say i am out of time now. thank you very much. [applause] >> here are some of our featured programs for this holiday weekend on the c-span networks. today and sunday starting at noon, commencement speeches by politicians, white house officials, and business leaders as they offer advice and encouragement to the class of 2015. speakers include tim scott, the u.s. ambassador to saudi arabia, and the hulu founding c.e.o. monday morning, live coverage of the memorial day ceremony from arlington national cemetery. interviews with members of congress. on c-span2 tonight america's transportation infrastructure and her ideas for improvements in transport. sunday evening at 7:00, cokie roberts recounts washington during the civil war through the lives of women who lived and worked there. monday evening, books on first ladies including michelle obama and eleanor roosevelt. on american history tv on cspan3 tonight the university of minnesota professor on asian immigration to california from 1830 to 1930 and how their arrival compared to that of the europeans in new york. sunday afternoon at 4:00, the 1945 production that chronicles the events to the surrender of nazi germany. on monday evening, the re-creation of the grand review parade of 1865 including reenactors portraying colored troops who were not allowed to participate in the original procession 150 years ago. find our complete schedule at www.c-span.org. >> he that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother. this day shall gentle his condition. gentlemen in england shall think themselves accursed that they were not here. >> one drop of blood drawn from thy country's bosom should grieve thee more than streams of foreign gore. >> the director of the shakespeare library talks about shakespeare and how politicians use quotes from the famous playwright in their speeches. >> sometimes you have to go with the music of the words, the poetic images, the sound of the rhymes, and also the way you are able to pause and linger over a long phrase and then stop and keep going. i think he is using the rhythms of the language, which is something shakespeare did brilliantly, so he can take english and put it into high gear at one moment and slow down. that is something's shakespeare lets you do it you are a politician. >> good night, good night

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