, who is married, in fact, to one of my employees, dr. Glen robins, he says and i agree completely, generally, you can either talk about andersonville or the other military prisons of war. It becomes emotionally difficult to try to do both. And i will explore that. And i am going to weave in between the two a little bit. A note on semantics before i start any further. I hesitate to use the acronym p. O. W. In a civil war context. Because its a 20th century term. Like to talk a lot. Prisoner of war slows me down a little bit. Civil war prisons and prisoners of war fall outside of the traditional heroic narrative of the war. And looking into this story, in a sense, that requires one to dive deeply into the wreckage of the war, the consequences of the war. And, again, you lose objectivity very quickly the longer you stay down in the wreckage of the war. Andersonville is the most famous of the military prisons. Its a long way from the rest of the civil war world, both literally and figuratively. The prison site was chosen on purpose 150 years ago to be as remote and as insulated a place in the confederacy, far from perceived locations of battle. And 150 years later, this prisoner of war story remains distant from the rest of the narrative. We have the tendency to talk about prisoner of war camps, and irvine andersonville, off to the side of the main narrative of the war. Its, you know, as we talk about battles and campaigns, oh, by the way, theres this crazy thing happening at Anderson I Andersonville and some other places. When prisons exist because of the war, prisons are influenced because of the war. They are part of one story. One of our great challenges is to better integrate prisoner of war stories into how we talk about, how we explore the civil war. A measure of the figurative distance, this narrow view of prisons, i want to pause for a moment to examine a new monument in the town of andersonville. This past fall, the ft. Benning Sergeant Majors Association dedicated a powmia monument 50 feet from the train tracks where prisoners arrived. In front of this monument it is very bold. P. O. W. signated to past and present. And on the backside, whats missing . 50 feet from where 45,000 american soldiers entered captivity, theyre not present. And it is worth noting, though we will not dwell on it, that this is about 200 feet from a monument dedicated to the heroic story of the commander of that prison. So theres a precedent here already. At the prison site itself, they the Historical Monuments dedicated 100 years ago by states, they face out. They face the prison wall and the road that loops around the site, designed for the visitor to stand up literally on the outside of that experience, looking in. And that emotional distance, again, prevents us from experiencing, understanding this story, you know, in very important ways. Its impossible to overstate how much lost cause mythology and revisionism of 100 years ago persists within the subgenra of military prisons. This narrative, you know, by design, is a very narrow one built upon concepts of false equivalency and distracts from understanding by focusing on blame. And well explore exactly how that happens. This narrative and how narrow it is, is beginning to show its age. We talk about prisons like theyre in a box, and focusing on, well, yours are worse than ours. And as one example of that, one book on the prison in the last pulped byas pulled its publisher because one author swore up and down he was being plagiarized. When we repeat the same story over and over and do not question it, at is going to happen. It has become so repetitive, so narrow, that plagiarism is part of the process, in many respects. What is maddening about this is how universal the prisoner of is prisoner of war experience is in the course of the war. An average soldier of both sides during the course of the conflict has a one in seven chance of becoming a prisoner of war. The United States soldier has a one in 11 chance. A confederate soldier, just pick a 25 random they have chance of becoming a prisoner of war. It is a universal consequence of the conflict. Its a critical part of the experience. And by the end of the war, 56,000 prisoners of war are dead, north and south. This is not something off to the side of the conflict. It is deeply entrenched into the middle of it. Theres no better example of the ragged edges of how to talk about prisoners of war than americas now most famous prisoner of war, the recently freed beau bergdahl. The emotions, the controversy. The anger, the suspicion are a the suspicion in recent weeks are a reminder that prior to vietnam, prisoners of war were not viewed as heros. They were viewed with suspicion, as failures, as men who were cowardly who failed to do their duty. Somethingd have done better. They shouldnt have got caught. Men coming back from korea were so held in suspicion, you know, over fear of brainwashing by communists. That leads to the creation of the code of conduct. This is a universal story. The prisoner of war story, its deeply personal, deeply controversial, and deeply complex. Survivors and families began struggling to define the meaning of captivity before the war ends. The missing soldiers office, run byshed in 1865, clara barton, would endeavor to seeking loveds ones from the battlefield to the prison camp. Its in this capacity that clara barton accompanies the article the quartermasters expedition that establishes the lists. Nville her work here is limited to identifying the dead or graves to making a list. She is credited with identifying the dead or graves or establishing the cemetery and she did not do those things. The u. S. Army under the command of quartermaster james moore established the cemetery. The 12,920 dead of andersonville may get the single deadliest place of the civil war. It the single deadliest place of the civil war. Just counting fatalities, you have to add at least three oftles, the battle deaths both sides, to equal the scale of andersonville. War, clara barton took her story on the road, and a former prisoner accompanied her. Relics of the prison become Tourist Attractions across the country. These are artifacts that clara barton used, accompanying her particular lecture tour. Beginning in 1876, and extending for decades, prisons and prison treatment, north and south, became a political device by which southern democrats and republicans bludgeon each other , in the process codifying this narrative that we are still sort of stuck in. And the narrative fallacies that go along with it. To the end of their lives, former prisoners of war were stalwart defenders of their experience. What is most extraordinary about these men is how many of them went on to lead ordinary lives. Memoryo them and their that we must chart new paths of to better include them in how we talk about the war. The first avenue is the discussion of policy. Primarily, exchanges. The political system which governed exchanges occurring over the first two years of the war was exploded over one central idea. The black soldier. The code established in 1863 is, in a sense, americas first civil rights policy. It unequivocally announces that black soldiers are equal and to be treated equally. And it is that question that stops fullscale exchanges for the remainder very nearly the remainder of the war. Other excuses are thrown out, but that is the reason exchanges have stopped. That is the reason that giant prisons appear late in 1864, primarily in the south but likewise in the north. And that begins in 1863, at the battle of fort wagner. 35 soldiers of the 54th massachusetts are captured. And taken to the charleston city jail. When word of their treatment reaches the white house later in the summer, exchanges stop. Are amen and their story very good example of the complexities, in that the governor of South Carolina wants them for waro try crimes. He wants to execute them for the slave insurrection that theyve been a part of. He is not permitted to do so. Much to his disgust, the state for system finds that South Carolina has no standing to do so. These men remain in charleston for over a year. Later in 1864, theyre confederatento the military prison system. And thats when they start dying. Their time at charleston, all things considered, wasnt quite as bad as what was to come. While largescale exchanges is reallyrozen, it important to remember that limited exchanges are still occurring, especially late in 1864. Exchanges of the sick and wounded or field exchanges. Shermans exchange after he occupies atlanta is very, very critical to the history of andersonville. This breakdown of exchanges has an incredible, massive effect, especially for southern prisoners. The prison in salisbury had operated all the way through the war. In 1864, it stops being the place that you can play baseball at. The Second Avenue of discussion is the question of systems of management. What choices do each side make in managing military prisons and the prisoners in their care, and what resources do they allocate to prisoner care . As prison populations just expand exponentially, late in 1863 and 1864, you have a prison in the south where theyre just jammed into richmond until thanksgiving, when a realization is that, thats really scary. Its a threat to the security of richmond. On multiple level, its a stressor on the resources of richmond. Lets move them away. In the north, theres a much greater capacity for dispersing prisoners to multiple facilities. Training camps are being or having an additional function added to them during this time. South cannot be compared equally. This is the greatest narrative fallacy of the civil war prisons. While prisons have much in common they are all prisons. Your rights are restricted. Food and other things are no longer necessarily up to you. You have to wait for them to be provided. The differences in management and scale are so large that they are not equal. And cross comparisons are, quite frankly, dishonest. Cap dash camample, some for military prison in southwest georgia, the al myra facility in new york the elmira facility in new york. Aretually, those tents replaced by barracks. Across the United States is a vast network of Permanent Military facilities that have prisons added to them, and Training Camps changed into prisons. Their deficiencies tend to be in contracting and because of the vast military bureaucracy, incompetence of command is often undressed and removed. The south, a highly centralized system, run out of richmond, led largely by one , becomes almost a cult of personality. He trains a chondrite of officers whose names appear over adre ofr again a c officers. 1861, a prison board is organized to provide oversight and management of military prisons in richmond. Its worth noting that two of the names on that prison board are command level officers at andersonville three years later. The problems of southern prisons, challenges and thisiencies originate in centralized and often reactive management system. This map shows Major Military prisons in the north and south in july, 1864. And by major, im defining them at at or above 1,000 prisoners in population. Two of the red marks on this map are transitioning to, in a sense, transition facilities, in richmond and danville. Prisoners are held for a short time, and then they are being moved to larger facilities. The northern prisoners are everywhere. Everywhere, all the way from the florida keys to boston harbor. And then all the way out to San Francisco harbor. And alcatraz. When you read the o. R. s, the managers of the northern prisons theyre transporting , prisoners all of the time. They are dealing with issues of contracting, delays of construction. In the south, they are centralizing, and centralizing, until by the summer of 1864, that strategy becomes very clearly not a good one. By august, 10 of the army of the potomac is held in a 26. 5 acre enclosure in southwest georgia. The third and most critical avenue of exploration of the prisoner of war is to examine the individual experience of captivity. It is a mistake to think that prisoners had identical experiences. And yet, while circumstances emotionaly, the component, the emotional descriptions, are hauntingly similar, regardless of what facility you are in. One emotion is fear. As a reminder of how Central Prison experience has become, and fear of the prison experience has become, you know, this idea of capturing a capture and imprisonment, its always in the back of your mind as a soldier in the field. A private of the 19th ohio volunteers reflected during the battle of Kennesaw Mountain on the futility of the battle, and he closes it with this thought. But itur lines advance, is to death or a southern prison, for but few return. Confederate risen or of war captured at Lookout Mountain was paroled out of the general population and served as a clerk. His work provided him with access to news reports, relief supplies, interaction with civilians around the prison. His journal is full of just the constant rumors hes hearing and his hope for the cause. He reports these rumors, and while constantly worrying about thinking, it is a stretch of conscience for me to think it right working for uncle sam. I hope i am doing no wrong in consenting to write for these folks. Hes struggling with the choice he made. Hes Getting Better treatment. He is no longer staying in the main prison while hes working as a clerk and he also spends quite a deal of time in the diary recounting how he gets into the prison and hes bringing in supplies that civilians are bringing. Journey. This idea of being transported to an uncertain oops, capture. Im getting ahead of myself. John january, from illinois, remembered, i was captured between macon and atlanta, georgia, august 1st, 1864. I was taken to andersonville, but before entering the stockade, i was stripped and searched five times. Everything was taken from me. Except an old blouse, pants, and horse blankets. I had no idea what kind of place i was going to or i would have risked my life to escape. Being taken to the stockade, i was three days without food. The capture is the beginning of a journey. A transportation to camp, often movement from one camp to another camp. A member of the 111th United States colored troops, hes a white, noncommissioned officer. Along with other prisoners from alabama, they are moved eastward in the late fall of 1864 as concern over shermans presence is creating massive disruptions. Disruptions in the southern prison system. Being transported in train cars, 60100 in a car, he reflects, facing a journey with an uncertain destination. Left columbus at 5 00. Nothing worthy of note. Until we reached fort valley where the road heading to andersonville intersected the columbus and macon railroad. Here, we heard the report that we were to go to andersonville prison and, from the reports, we heard of that place. We dreaded the very idea of making our entrance there. What terrible suspense was that which endured while laying there at the valley. Anxious to start, yet fearing we would take the road to that most loathsome of all resumes, andersonville. Prisons, andersonville. At last, we start. Near the switch of andersonville road, we pass it, listening with throbbing hearts, the signal from the engineer to back off and switch on the fatal road. But, no, we get faster and faster. We are enabled to draw a long breath. We involuntarily exclaimed, thank god we are free from the fate of the prison. There are themes of landscape. The prisoners spent a great deal of time describing the intimate facilities in which theyre held. And yet, these descriptions are often admittedly incomplete. Halfhearted. Even to those who experience it firsthand. Willis spent during recounted, i cannot tell you why the stockade was a perfect hell on earth, unless it was because prisoners were treated so. Nothing to eat, nothing to wear. No fuel. Hardly any water. I shall certainly not consider it a heaven or a decent place. I can compare it to nothing but hell on earth. As a natural consequence of the treatment our man received there, they were fighting and robbing each other. That prisoners experience is often defined by the wall. Whatever is holding them in. Exterior details to these facilities. A military prison is not simply the stockade. A vast complex of warehouses and camps to support it. And, yet, that immediate landscape, the stockade is generally the defining feature. Prisoner drawings of southern facilities, northern facilities and just one example, the drawings of robert, held by the Virginia Historical society. He has multiple maps of andersonville showing its evolution during his captivity there. How he depicts the earthworks outside the stockade is like they are on steroids, because he only sees them at a distance. When you are looking at a distance, what you really see is the fact that there are guns pointed at you. When hes moved to the camp laughton facility in the fall, hes paroled out. He works in the hospital. And, as a consequence, his drawings of the camp laughton prison facility are almost hyper accurate. In terms of not only the stockade, but placement of exterior features. Prisoners of war face impossible choices. That we in many respects do not understand and cannot understand. Its almost a moral calculous calculus, where the equations are all different. As one example of that, john tarsney, a michigan soldier held in andersonville and then in the moved in the fall to camp laughton, in the fall, during one of the exchanges in november of the sick and the wounded, he realizes hes just too healthy. He doesnt qualify for the exchange. The night before the prisoners selected are to be transported away, as he walks through that 42 acre enclosed stockade, he happens across another soldier, very clearly qualified for the exchange. Was,s suspicious, and he that that soldier was so weak, so ill, he was not going to live through the night. He stops and spends the time with this soldier to get his name, his regiment, his squad within the prison where hes captured, other important details. The next morning, just before the prisoners selected to exchange are to assemble, he walks back by the soldier again and the soldier is calm. Is gone. John does an impossible thing. He puts his own name on the dead man. He assumes the name of this dead soldier to live. Its what can you do to live . Without risking your life. What can you do . Certainly, andersonville escape a very unsuccessful thing, but its being tried all of the time. Freedomseeking. Southern prisons become places where prisoners are the slaves. When they escape, they are hunted by dogs. At andersonville, one of the things that distinguishes andersonville from other southern prisons when youre caught, youre brought back and heavily punished. Many of those punishments sound like theyre straight out of slave narratives. Iron collars, balls and chains, prisoners are whipped. Escape is a very unsuccessful thing. And why do you do it . Why do you endeavor to keep trying . Escape is hope. The other part of the escape story, more so in the prisons in the carolinas than andersonville is this. Who is risking their lives to fleeing soldiers . A small class of white southern unionists, and theyre certainly taking risks, but by the 1930s, southern historians laugh about it as a cliche. Southern prisons become a place where the underground railroad is flipped. Slaves are risking their lives to assist prisoners to freedom. And certainly in andersonville this begins a very intim intimate relationship between the black population of the area and the prison site for almost a half century memorial day is almost exclusive live a black affair at andersonville. These places remain among the raw wounds of the war. Visitors to andersonville a certain kind of visitor to andersonville, one of their first comments tends to be, well, prison something. Just as bad as andersonville. And theres a reason why they say this. Almost always, one of their ancestors was at whatever prison. Its a reminder again to the individual wherever youre at its the worst place. This is a reminder to me too that forgiveness is an ongoing process. The prisons and prisoners of war. Its a self inflicted wound these prison sites, their associated features such as cemetery for camp chase in ohio. And i will ad noit you this is my favorite prisoner of war monument thats not in andersonville. The keystone has a single word, americans. These places have an Untapped Potential as places where we can seek a better understanding of the consquebs consequences of the war and what we do to each other, the choices that prisoners and guards at each facility face when trying to guard people that are in fact us. We have met the enemy and he is s. In the final analysis, is it possible to make any sense of this time when we held each other prisoner . Survivors do. John january, corporal of captured 14th illinois during the raid, i quoted him andersonville and then in South Carolina. At florence, he suffers from wounds and scurvy so bad that the hospital staff look at him and their response is essentially, youre going to die, kid. Impossible choices. With the help of his friends he mputates his own feet. After the war and testimony to congress, he declares, i went from home full of hope with an arden desire to do something for my country. Flushed with hell and strength, i came home worn down to nothing , to comfort me only the thought that i have tried to do my duty and that my sufferingings were for a good cause. Thank you. [applause] first one to the bar. Im already in my head listing the things that i didnt say. Cantor book inly reasonably accurate . Theres no middle ground on cantors book. I have one minor complaint, book is his 700page an incredible piece of work. It provides a 360degree view of the prison, the personalities held within it, the personalities outside of it. He used primary source material that even to this day some writers refuse to engage in. Its an incridible book. My one complaint is as a word ith, he was an expert in words. He wanted to use memorable words and he picked one single term for prisoner shelter when prisoners used dozens of terms, shelter, tent, hut, bureau, lanket tint, shanty. He picked shebang. John january is one of four pages of 1,20 material only four times does that phrase appear. And january literally says we called our shelter shebang. Im sure he did. Its a reminder that prisoners are all different. Some of them do but some of them dont. Thats my one complaint about that book. Otherwise it is remarkable. Its a very difficult read. Over here. I was wondering if you could talk about the relationship between winder and the secretary. He didnt seem to take many steps to respond with letters in the case. What i see is sort of an the intention of andersonville is to move prisoners out of richmond and once theyre out of richmond a sort of out of sight out of mind sets in and theres a very clear cognitive disconnect as commanders at camp sumter are saying we need this, we need this and nothing is happening. And then inspectors from richmond come and say they dont have this, this, and this. And at a certain point what are you going to do . I dont know to what extent exactly the relationship between sudden and winder where it sits. Winder, 150 years ago this month moves his headquarters to andersonville because theres a realization that that strategy of centralization is failing. As the prisoners just continue to stream into a facility thats ow double its design capacity. Robert dominguez, chula vista, california. Im just id like to know a little bit more about this ham. His name is done john january. John january, was he an officer . No, hes an enlisted with only a very small number of exceptions, andersonville is for enlisted prisonersful hes a noncommissioned officer. Did he have gangrene in his feet . That earlier illustration immediate postwar, hes also described as his body is well under 100 pounds. Whether or not he had gangrene, im not certain. There are other versions of this photograph that show him standing with a top hat. Another version of this picture also includes the prosthetics on either side of him. And for me i find it very hard to look at this picture in light of the men and women who are have been mamed maimed in the last 10 years for roadside bombs. A terrible wound. David keller, chicago illinois. I have a question. Im part of an organization in chicago where were working to establish a Historic Site for camp douglas in chicago and its really challenging thing to do in an urban environment like chicago. Its pretty close to the center of the city. And but rell testify to andersonville, i can only imagine the challenges of trying to establish a site for a camp that housed federal prisoners deep in the heart of georgia, setting aside the land and funding for the monuments and then all of the stuff that goes along with that. Can you talk about the establishment of that park and history of that. A good question and its something that deserves a lot of scruteneen because again, the screwed knee because the confederacy is making choices and theyre allocating a huge amount of resources to during the course of a single year build two military prisons in the state of georgia. The construction at camp sum ster begins in january of 1864, sent across Central Georgia to dig trenches ad put 20foot logs to create perimeter. At the same time thats happen is the other parts of the infrastructure is coming on. Its important to note, general winder has a son and a nephew that are command level staff at andersonville, a quartermaster and a commissary. As the first prisoners are within a week of the first prisoners arriving, there are frantic letters, we only have 100 rivals. Right off the bat theyre 100 rifles. They are having problems attaining supplies. Part of this is a pernicious consequence of states rights. The governor of georgia is being dependent upon to provide sup blies to provide troops to to this military. He chooses not to help. Certainly from governor browns perspective, the only thing worse than andersonville is two of them. Camp lawton is even more remarkable, the construction there begins in august and thats a 42acre enclosed stockade. Its designed very intentionally with the Lessons Learned of camp sumter that the spring outflows millions of water gallons of water a day. At camp lawton in the six weeks it operates before the march begins and prisoners are. Acuated from it, 700 men die civil war prisons are ostly said terry places. Johnson island, camp lawton. How do you feel about that and what do you do with andersonville . Well, andersonville is a sank phied site. He sanctified site. Other prisons in eastern georgia and how do i feel about it . Its great. Especially at camp lawton that site was essentially forgotten the joke is a student wanted to finish his degree in archaeology. A fish and wild life person said if ormally at andersonville you die somebody takes your stuff and when you leave, you take your stuff. The very little archaeology in the interior of the compound at andersonville doesnt find a lot of material culture and thats often misinterpreted as oh, the poor prisoners they had nothing. Its not quite that simple. Again, when they move they take their stuff with them. We know the site was farm post war. Its cleaned up during the prisons operation. Johnsons island is really valuable because it is helping to shine light on these places that had been forgotten. The r. Bushs book about letters he uses where hes illustrating them with archaeological finds is really valuable in trying to personalize this story. Yes, sir. Im robert homes from piedmont, california. You had commented earlier that north south compare comparisons are dishonest. I wonder about the horror at andersonville was it four imes as large as elmira . Well use elmira for example. It operates for about a year. The total number of confederate prisoners held there is smaller than the number of dead at andersonville. The total number of dead at elmira is smaller than the dead of a single month in andersonville. The scale of anderson is off the chart. Its the exception that sort of proves all the rules in southern prisons is that does that answer your question . Not entirely. Theres said to be about 2,900 dead and buried at elmira. ,000 out of percentages are really misleading. Again, the deadliest month, ugust, thats more than at elmira. If andersonville had stopped magically at the end of july it would have remained the deadliest place of the military prisons. Begin suffering on a personal evel is different. One of our great challenges is we tend to look at these prisons like theyre islands when very often there are towns around them. One of the interesting things at prisoners with skills have great opportunity to improve their condition. Did some research on Union Veterans and i went through several Union Veteran newspapers , National Tribune in washington, d. C. And the american tribune out of indianapolis and often times they would have stories from the war and there was a ton of tories about being a prisoner at andersonville or other prisons. I also know that after the war theres a lot of books that are written about being a prisoner during the civil war. Itself. S a genre in im wonder fing you have any additional comment bs the popularity of the story of being a prisoner after the war. Its driven by selfinterest. In the early 1880s Congress Passes a law by which former prisoners of war, in this case thats federal soldiers held in southern prisons, not the other way around, can receive a higher pension to the tune of 6 a month. If you s a mass write the story of your experience, thats proof and attention for it. D theres another truth of prison memoirs. The further they are published from the war, the more they reflect memory and the less they reflect accurately the prison experience. And so we it becomes a paradox. You want to quote them as prime air wri sources. Sometimes you have to worry about to what extent have they exaggerated something or bought into a myth about something they may have not witnessed at all. Its worth noting in passing that the National Tribune, todays stars and stripes, one of the major voices behind had whose it is john mcilroy prisoner memoir published in 1889 is one of the two that dominates the andersonville prison story and for better or worse in many respect. Im cathy wright from down in richmond, virginia. I know in richmond there was a concentration of numerous p. O. W. Prisons for union p. O. W. s. Theres also a concentration of southern unionists who aided them in getting out of the prisons and out of richmond. I was wonder fing there were any populations in the south or the north where you had civilian populations helping prisoners escape. Im interested in things ring for confederate that i cant speak to. Thats certainly something that deserves a lot more research. Is ook id recommend that not military prisoners but these s nonetheless are new york tribune writers that were captured in 1863 and held punitively at libby prison, castle thunder, later salisbury. They make an escape and invoke their historic accounts and in the recent retelling theres a great deal of focus on southern unionists who are assisting them in their run to freedom. In prisoner accounts from andersonville notice fall its still an off chance but more likely that you could go to escape by october and theres one prisoner narrative that describes as they wait on the florida coast for a good time to get to that block aid line, theyre hiding in the home of the southern unionist. , hismemoir from the 1890s great pain in telling the story is that he waited too long to try and touch base with this person who is critical to his survivel and he passed away just a couple years earlier. And so this prisoner had not been able to say new in a way he thought he ought to. Im richard. Mckinly t of the cantors narrative is the mistreatment of prisoners by the gangs that operated there. I have not come across that story in other in accounts of other prisons. Im wondering if that was unique to andersonville or was just part of a story that was not included in firsthand accounts . Youre referring to the raiders perhaps . Yeah. Thats one of the great mythologies of the prison. Cantor handles it in a way that hollywood did not. The turner film uses the raiders as literally narrative device and it shows them in a way that doesnt match prisoner dieys. What did guards do at ander the guards stand on the 52 post. You have guard details that are about 100 men that are walking out with wood gathering details. Guards keep you in. There is essentially no apparatus for internal policing by the confed see. At this place the prisoners who arrived at andersonville in february, march and april, theyve been prisoners for six to nine months at least. They were held in the richmond complex. To them when they first get to anderson vel, their lives are better. Theres more space. Theres debris left over from construction to build shelters. E prisoners, one example he has the clothes on his back and a coat. Thats all he has. And then may comes and you get prisoners from plymouth North Carolina from the wilderness and other battles that are coming straight from the battlefield and prisoners from plymouth were guarding a town. These guys have nice kits, nap sacks, blanket rolls, shelter hats. Theyre rich beyond measure to the prisoners that are held there and that creates an environment in which raiding begins to happen. We use raider with a small r. Its 150 years ago right now and to next week a large massive vigilante group, a gang is aised to stop raiding. This image we have thats become popularized, the regulators, the vigilante gang and fighting off the raiders as sort of a jets versus sharks bit of business is , thats postwar mythology. The one Samuel Melvin of the second massachusetts heavy artillery, on the day the raiders are hung, in his die diary he says i saw six victims hung today. Sogget john from indiana who arrives on july first after the purge of the raiders but before their execution his diaries is full of long entries where he struggles with the morals of the place, the fact that people are each g on preying on other when they shouldnt. He describes the regulators as thugs who are terrorizing the prison and punishing people who are not like them. In the trial in the fall of 18 bluntly 865, he says the only thing raiders did was execute the six. This might be one of those rare moments where the Death Penalty s a deterrent. John from new york. Im a member of the salisbury confederate association, number two plizzyoon confederate star line up. The death rate are the numbers are almost as maybe more than andersonville i am told. Im not sure of that. But the narrative of the prison seems to be remarkably similar to the one youve been describing. Although its common not to get tried an executed. Thats one of my questions is to bring up the guy who actually ran andersonville and paid the price. Im trusting your relatives through salisbury, thats why im a member. Ok. One of them survived and one of them didnt. Within a week of his exchange he died from and he went in in august of 1864 just in in that time frame that you describe. So just to comment there about salisbury and a question about other prisoners never came to trial as far as i understand. Comments please. The other n is who has prison command tried with violations of war. Hes acquited and ths a reason for that. Its well described in the trial the efforts to make to aid prisoners. The effort he ghose to to allocate resources to pizzners the two isbury reporters witness it from a place where baseball games are played to Something Else entirely. One of the two of them is working in the hospital and he starts to keep a list of the dead because that fear that cords may into the be kept were just one of two confederate staff at andersonville tried for violations of the laws of war. His trial is quite frankly one of the darkest holes of tud study of the war and its consequence consequences. The last time an indepth look as written about the trial was 1917. To me, people who complain about it, theyve never read the trial. The transcript exists and it is a confounding document. The trail lasts 63 days. This are two charges and the firstst being part of a conspiracy to maim and murder american soldiers in violations of the lies of individual acts of murder or american soldiers by his subordinate soldiers at his orders. We know how this ends, hes convicted. During the course of the trial a lowlevel quartermaster employee by the name of james duncan, a great deal of discussion is spent on how hes embezzling money and supplies. Hes tried and convicted. He spends a year in military prison in georgia. In the beginning of 1866, president Andrew Johnson commits a merciful act. Theres a blanket amnesty of troops and along with that executive order is a prohibition of further military tribunals. Its important to note that the jag office were not done. They were preparing a massive set of additional work on the trials, including george pickett. Forgiveness has to start somewhere and the United States began to forgive in 1866. If theres injustice, its that Major General winder had a heart attack in february of 1865 t florence, i believe, and passed bray higher court of judgment as it says. One more question. [indiscernible] your passion for this. I just have a twopart question. Its been a long time [indiscernible] ondering what can be indiscernible] what are the benefits in en gauging in the debate. Nt engaging in the [indiscernible] technically, given the theme of the conference in 164, im wondering if you could elaborate quickly on perhaps you brought up in the beginning about how race became these damming features that stopped the change can you talk about the ways in which perhaps limpingyoon lincoln and grant had a larger war, a war that is about as widespread of massive suffering nd how it might have been [indiscernible] when you think about war in a modern way that nords is there a possibility of indiscernible] well, i think i counted three question theres. The first is the comparative. Please correct me if i get them wrong. The first is the comparative calculus of prisons, Death Threats and is that death rates and is that something constructive to engage in. Then and the third question ere was indiscernible] calculus war that has something to do with the men dying in other prisons. In terms of the comparative numbers, its a trap and thats very much, you john. Blame those numbers are used works,. Ially, georgia yours works fplg the systems are separate. The choices that each passility, each commander is making, the choices that each government are making deserve to be explored on their own merits. And in trying to say, well, theyre all the same reflects the desire of reconciliation after the war that we are one nation. The prisons, they simply arent the same. Requires o the math much longer discussion. Its a good starting point. That monument that i didnt picture that i sort of mentioned in andersonville dedicated in 1909, it quotes general grant on one side and throws him under the bus. It is hard on our soldiers not to exchange them blah blah blah and thats used as blaming. The problem is on the day hes writing that theres 32,000 prisoners at andersonville. The language he uses in that has a lot echos much of what has been said about Bowe Bergdahl in the last two weeks, every soldier we exchange with our enemies is going to come back and kill americans. We shouldnt do it. That is grants point, that confederate soldiers have this funny persist answer of going back into the field where u. S. Soldiers, they either go home or theyre so debilitated they cant go back to the site. Are a real do rarity. So thats not entirely a direct answer but its certainly part of it. This idea that we dont want to exchange because its to our advantage not to, is quite frankly secondary. Because on the same day that grant writes that letter, Benjamin Butler writes a letter that says every other point of exchange has been settled. The question of the black soldier is the only one that remains. Nd its still very sental central to why exchanges have just been stopped. Thank you. [applause] the civil war airs here every saturday at 6 00 and 10 00 eastern time. To watch more of our programming at time, visit our website. Youre watching American History tv all weekend, every weekend on cspan 3. Student cam span competition is under way, open to middle and high school students, citing the three branches and you and how its affected you and your community. Theres cash prizes for students and teachers. Go to student delth cam dor. This weekend on the cspan networks, tonight at 8 00, a debate on the future of the internet. Sunday on q and a, taffis smiley. Tonight at 10 00 on book tv afterwards, father jeff chang on the idea of racial progress in america. Sunday night at 10, a winner of the pullitieser prize. He social prejudice immigrants faced during the 1800s. Sunday night at 8 00, the 25th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. Let us know what you think about the programs youre watching. Call us or email us at comments. Org or send us a tweet. Like us on facebook, follow us on twitter. Roger tainee served as chief justice of the sk and he delivered the opinion in the controversial dred scott case. A Rhodes Scholar discusses chief justice taney. Its a little under an hour. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute] [applause] thank you very much, mr. Goldman. Historians like me because every legal historian on it but how important they are depends on how much you think the history behind the constitution or any other statute depends upon what was the understanding at the time, which is what as starns can tell us. I use historians more than most people and they like me more han most people. Well, im happy to welcome all of you to this i guess its the third in our series of ectures named after the former president of the Supreme Court historical society. And this lecture is as you have third in a he fourpart series on the Supreme Court and the civil war revisited