, gas stations etc. that sometimes as he took off the asphalt, we would come down actually into a grave area. and in that case, there would be a few may buttons found, a few tax, some engines for the coffin -- hinges for the coffin. these were simply photographed, nothing moves. and that is the goal. to make sure that everyone buried at friedman cemetery will be preserved. there are no historic photographs of friedman cemetery, so we didn't know what to find. what we have also -- we have also looked for the absence of grace. and one of those places was clearly a pathway that was coming into the cemetery from washington street, and coming directly in. and that pathway will not be used for a new walkway for visitors to enter through a gate and come into the cemetery. the preservation of friedman's -- freedman's cemetery has been miraculous. that so much of the cemetery has been preserved, even with so much road construction all around it, building construction gas tanks being placed at the gas station, curb cuts, and other topographical changes. the site has been damaged both coming in from its edges, as well as coming down from its top. so, i would say that the preservation is not what one would expect. i think that the city of alexandria upon commitment to -- alexandria's commitment to purchase the land and create a memorial means there is a long-term commitment to protect the place and tell the story. and to make sure that the term contraband is no longer a word that people are unaware of its meaning or are thought of only in negative connotations. >> welcome back to "american history tv's" live coverage. this is cohosted by longwood university and appomattox courthouse historic park. the battle fought on the morning of april 9 18 65, was the final engagement of confederate general robert e lee's army before it surrendered to the union forces under lieutenant general ulysses s grant. it was one of the last battles of the american civil war. some of the topics today include the battle of sailor's creek, the battles of appomattox, the surrender at appomattox, and its legacy and closing operations in north carolina. this is live coverage on c-span3. [indistinct chatter] [indistinct chatter] >> we are going to get everybody seated again. we would like to start on with the next program. accommodate the c-span3 schedule , and get us to lunch on time. everybody likes that, right? here is david kohl's to introduce our next bigger. -- next speaker. >> just a reminder to everybody about lunch. you are free to do lunch on your own. a number of fast food places in farmville and some other sitdown restaurants. as i said last night, we are a little bit restaurant challenged here. don't have a huge selection, but many of the people go to the longwood that a call for their brunch. so if you are not sure where to go we'll let some people show you how to get down there. it dollars $.25 for all-you-can-eat brunch. our final speaker this morning is someone that many of you are familiar with, ronald wilson. ron is a longtime employee of the national park service. he retired in 2000 after working 35 years at various locations including gettysburg, johnstown flood national memorial, allegheny portage, lincoln boyhood national memorial. but for the last wood five years of his career, he was the historian at appomattox courthouse national historic park. i can let patrick and ron duke it out as to who was the better historian, ron or patrick. but as i mentioned earlier, ron is the person who did get the seminar started. my first year was 1999-2000. and ron hold over here this year and asked if we are interested in cosponsoring a seminar. and i said, yes. a study much smaller than it was -- is now. ron's talk today -- he was the co-compiler of one of the volumes in the howard series, appomattox paroles april 9 to 15th, 1865. he is retired now and lives in lake monticello. i was just telling ron yesterday that i look like i have aged 30 years, and he looks exactly the same. maybe it is the water at lake monticello or something. but we have been following through this morning, in kind of rough chronological order, the appomattox campaign from the final battles of petersburg sailor's creek, the campaign in general. and ron today will be talking about the surrender at appomattox. ron wilson. [applause] >> now, you made all those wonderful comments. thank you. it is indeed a pleasure to be here. i think this is, as you mentioned, the 16th seminar. and i think we owe a debt of gratitude to longwood university and to dr. cole and to patrick schroeder. i think you all ought to give them a round of applause. [applause] how many of you, and there are quite a few of you, have been to the mclean house at appomattox courthouse? that makes things rather easy for me. it is time for lunch, i believe. [laughter] one thing that is probably not generally known is that the first offer of surrender didn't come from a letter from general grant. it came from a group of officers that had gathered before noon, april 7. and these officers concluded that because the circumstances facing the army, that it might be best to suggest to generally that he open -- general lee that he open negotiations with general grant. the negotiations, a former that this could billion rector. he approached the general lee that day, but general lee would not hear of that suggestion. he said there were too many brave and good man still in the ranks. general grant, most of the federal forces moved into farmville where we are now located by 1:30 on the afternoon of april 7. general lee, of course, had moved north of the appomattox river into cumberland county. general grant established his headquarters at the prince edward hotel, also known as the randolph house, which no longer stands. but was at the corner of main street and 2nd street here in farmville. and coincidentally, last night i had the pleasure of staying at the longwood red -- bed and breakfast on high street. in one of those rooms is a desk along with other furniture. that furniture came from general grant's orders in the prince edward hotel. and on one of those pieces, he wrote out a letter to general lee. it would turn out to be the first letter asking for the surrender of the army of northern virginia. it was written about 5:00 that afternoon, and was put in the hands of seth williams. who was the inspector general of the federal armies. because the bridges have been burned, he had to take a very particular route over the wagon bridge underneath highbridge. and he did not reach general lee until about 9:00 that evening. he had some difficulty getting his message through the lines but eventually was able to do so. general lee received the message , read it, didn't say anything. he then handed it to james oxford -- long street -- longs treet. he had one reply, not yet. he then picked himself up out of the entrenchment and moved westward. we know that that road would take them to richburg -- richmond to a place called appomattox courthouse. now, when general lee had read that letter, he did require a response. his response was he didn't ticket was time to surrender the army, but what terms the general grant propose considering the surrender. general grant, of course, would then write a reply, but his reply would not reach general lee until the next day, on the eighth. meanwhile, general lee had progressed to it -- within a very short distance of appomattox courthouse when that second message got to him. and it quite simply said that general grant proposed to accept the offer by the men laying down their arms and to be exchanged. until properly exchanged being paroled. in other words, they could go home. this is where the situation gets a little different. it is near midnight. general lee has written the letter of response, and the letter of response reaches general grant at his headquarters along the roadside near shepherds, and the house. the general is undergoing a severe migraine headache. at nothing can seem to use him including -- ease him, including the staff underscore playing an out of tune piano. they only understood to songs. one was "yankee doodle." but the message that reached him was him -- of much serious nature. general lee still do not want to surrender the army of northern virginia, but he approached general grant on the prospect of peace. surrendering all confederate forces. this is something that has a little prior history to it. on march 2, general lee had written to general grant and it said in that message, sincerely the desire to leave nothing untried that may put event to the calamities of war, i propose to meet you at such convenient time and place as you may designate with the hope that upon interchange of views you find it practical to some it to the subject of controversy between the two belligerents a he proposed a peace settlement. the message was sent to the war party. general grant received the following response, written by the president, signed by the secretary of war edward stanton. etc., general grant, the president wishes you to have no conference with general lee unless it we for ther general lee's army or on some military matter. he instructs me to say, you are not to discuss or confer upon any political considerations such questions the president holds in his own hands. meanwhile, you are up to your military advantages. now only had general lee's suggested a meeting to discuss peace, he also has adjusted that the meeting take place at 10:00 on palm sunday morning, between the lines of the two forces. general grant would not respond. he would not respond until the next day of april 9. as we know, general lee had a council of war at his headquarters on the night of the eight. it was determined that if they were successful in breaking through, they would continue down into campbell courthouse, down into the hillsboro region of north carolina. if unsuccessful, then general lee was to be notified so that flags of truth could be set out. we do know that the attack was not successful. general lee now what order that flags of truce would be ordered out on the line. this would be about 10:00 the morning on the ninth that this was done. general lee would write to general long street -- longstr eet's lines with the hope of meeting general grant. general grant was not there. general grant had taken the ride from his headquarters near clifton, across the country with his cavalry to find out what general sheridan was doing. the ride would be an excess of 2425 miles. he would be out of contact with most of the army. what was general lee to do this point? he had no intentions to set, because general grant had rejected it. the battle had gone have the against him. federal forces were closing tightly around him. if you were generally, what would you do? he didn't have to say. he had a third letter and which he proposed to meet general grant on terms previously offered the previous day. this would take him into adjacent federal lines, but was told of course that general grant was an president. an attack had been ordered and couldn't be stopped. he happened to read closely the instructions to ascend to general grant, and they did so. our response came back from general need who was killed. but he responded, indicating that he had received the message and they would send out a courier to try and locate general grant so the actions to be taken. meanwhile, he also allowed for an armistice to take place until 2:00 that afternoon. the village now was in front of generally, and federal surrounded it, but no one occupied the mutual locations between the contending forces. general grant was eventually located by lieutenant charles peace and general lee's message was brought. i message as to general sheridan's lines so that he wouldn't be missed. another thing that is not known at appomattox is during this time of armistice, a group of offices both federal and union met around the courthouse building. they were there for about one hour and a half. it was in essence, a west point reunion. what it there, wilcox was there. sheridan was there. chamberlain was there. griffin was there. many other officers. they shared on battles that will run out. there wasn't an agreement -- there was an agreement made. between general longstree that theret would be no blue bath of troops unless the other counterpart was notified. everyone kind of settled down in place. general lee now came back to where the army was now located. he would then be made to rest by some of the officers that approach them. the general was quite tired at this point. you can imagine after three nights on the road. three days. the losses that he had sustained, half of the army lost in the last week. he took his place in front of gordon's position. sitting on a bunch of rails and an apple orchard. he would await the response of general grant. as i mentioned, general grant was located. the message was delivered. he dated his response 1150. he entrusted his response with his aid. they found general lee resting at the apple orchard. delivered the message, which in essence would indicate the general lee should select the site of their meeting, and general grant would approach when he arrived. so, general lee sent forward -- actually, he mounted his horse and he had with him his secretary lieutenant, and the headquarters courier, and the two federal offices. they approached the river, the appomattox, but stopped when one person wanted to drink. at which point, general lee set for -- set forward colonel marshall with the headquarters aid to go into the village and find a suitable meeting location. as i mentioned the village was very much neutral location between contending forces. marshall left an account of that ride. he said, general lee told me to go forward and find a house. very critical that he mention house. in the community, there was a courthouse. the courthouse is a judicial chamber. no one is on trial. besides, what day of the week is it? it's sunday. it's locked in close. he continued on, where we could meet general grant, and of all people, who did i meet mclean. i'm sure everyone, or most of you, have heard of mclean. i rode up to him and said, can you show me a house where general lee and grant can meet together? he took me to a house that was dilapidated. it had no furniture in it. i guess we would probably do the same. nonetheless, it was a structure that stood out in front of his two-story brick home, which had an english basement. the house had originally been built in 48. the small building that the colonel was taken to was probably a small building no longer in use. i told him, it wouldn't do. he said, maybe my house will do. he lives in a house and i told him i thought it would suit. i sent him back to bring general lee who was coming up behind. i went into the house and's debt down. after a while, general lee and thatbabcock came along. so, general lee babcock and myself sat down in mclean's parlor and taught in an amicable way. we often hear of general lee's attire when this meeting took place. he had dressed himself in a very sought lists almost new confederate uniform at 1:00 a.m. complete with leather boots, feingold spores -- fine gold spurs. when the general saw him, and inquired why he was so tired it he said, i want to leave my best possible appearance. is this the confidence of a man that thinks his men could break through the federal lines? or is this reality? well, what do we know about mr. mclean and the people who lived in that house? one was age 50. i would consider wilmer and opportunities. he had married his wife, who at this point was four months pregnant. other children were living at the house and the time. i'm sure that all ladies would welcome a bunch of military officers with muddy boots coming into their house unannounced. she had brought to the marriage -- as i mentioned, wilmer was an opportunist -- a fine home called yorkshire, 1200 acres of property in one location, and additional -- an additional 800 acres in another location. wilmer was a sugar importer and a wholesale grocery. when he moved into gotcher, he became a gentleman's farmer. you see, york shire is located in a place called manassas. it was seen fit by a general in july of 1860 want to make his headquarters in mr. mclean's home. mr. mclean will have property at the beginning of the war, the first battle of manassas july 21, 1861, and he will bring it into his parlor in 1865. he had no friends or relatives when he moved to appomattox. he was episcopalian, and most of the inhabitants of the community were baptist and methodist. being a tradesman, he was close to the southside railroad. he could use this for commercial purposes, which had connections to petersburg and lynchburg and points south and north. general lee, when he arrived at the home, i said to be nine stairs, when across the porch into the central hall, and into the parlor, to the left of the central hall. he may have noticed above the fireplace a lithograph drawing. that lithograph drawing was the interview between george washington and -- why do we think general lee would have an interest in the drawing? simply because his wife, mary anna randolph, was the great-granddaughter of martha washington. lee would be related to the washingtons. he would find that he was related to the carter's, the fitzhugh's, the harrise's and the randolph's. many of the first families of virginia. robert's father was henry light horse lee, of revolutionary warfare fame and governor of virginia. his mother was and hill corridor of the king carter family. unfortunate, his father had gambled on speculation and land, which did not materialize. when robert was six, his father left for barbados. robert would not see him again. he had to relatives that were signers of the declaration of independence, richard henry lee and francis lightfoot lee. from his mother, the family had moved to arlington at this point, away from stratford, his birthplace. from his mother, he learned of the economy, moderation, self-control courtesy, jen tilly, honor, and devotion. the fact that he was in his room was duty. he had not asked others to accompany him. he had asked only one other officer to come that did not and that was walter taylor. walter taylor had gotten married , he only been married one week. he declined to come. general lee would not ask others to share in the trial of surrender. in 1825, he would attend the united states military academy and graduate in 1829. graduate second in the class of what he thinks -- of 46. he would become a member of the elite corps of engineers and be responsible for projects and saving the waterfront in st. louis. he and mary would have seven children -- three sons, all of which would serve in the confederate army, and four daughters. in the mexican war, he would serve on general scott staff -- general scott's staff. he would later say the general lee was the best soldier of the field. he would be superintendent of the united states military academy from 1852-1855. on april 17, 1861, virginia would secede and the following day, colonel lee would be offered by francis blair junior command of all federal forces. he would reject the offer. he would resign from the army on april 20 and take command of virginia forces on the 23rd. . june 1, 1862, he took command of the army of northern virginia. we know the rest of the history. seven days stuck at manassas, sharpsburg fredericksburg. on february 9, 1855, he was made general in chief of all confederate forces. 39 years of military service. meanwhile, grant is making his way toward this meeting. he has them, as i mentioned, staff and upon entering the facility, he meets general sheridan and asks where generally is located, and he was in the house there to surrender. rant indicated that -- grant and decay that they should ride. there is a vast difference in general grants background and appearance which makes this meeting kind of a symbolic one of division. a division in the history of the country. a division culturally, industrially. grant would dismount in the courtyard into the same hallway and go into the parlor. general lee is now seated behind a small oval top table, and using a king back chair. he has been about one hour. the longest half hour and e lee's life. one might imagine, since i reiterated all the things i've taken place in his life, and his idol being george washington, the things he would contemplate. when grant enters the parlor, he will bring with him 15-17 other federal offices. and a newspaper officer of the "new york herald." the newspaper reporter traveled with the staff quite regularly. this was not an unusual situation. grant's uniform -- if we can call it that -- was quite the drug will -- money, he had no spurs. he had no cord on his hat. he wore no so lord. he had the uniform of a private, only modified with five buttons. the only distinguishing mark between general grant and i was any other soldier is the fact that he had lieutenant general shoulder boards. he hadn't expected general lead to react as quickly as he had, even though he had indicated to the secretary of war the day before the general lee would surrender on this day. what we know about grant. we know i'd initially that general lee his hand, the two offices shook hands. grant, at this point, is 42 years of age. general lee is 58 years old. he was born on april twice on april twice 7 1822, at a place called point pleasant. he would soon move with the family to georgetown, where he said most of his childhood. his father, jesse grant operated a tannery. he was very outspoken and opinionated. many would call him a know it all. his mother was very genteel. he was born into this world, and given a name of hiram ulysses grant. the young boy hated the tannery. he couldn't stand the smell of it. his name was changed when he entered west point. they only had entry for someone named ulysses simpson grant. the entry was made because of a congressman from the area who thought the boy was named after his mother. he turned out to be an indifferent student at the academy. he had over 250 demerits. he didn't want to go to west point. he wanted to become a mass teacher. but his father insisted and he didn't argue against his father. he set a record at the academy. general grant was an expert horseman. he graduated in 1843, the 21st of 39 cadets. he was assigned to the fourth united states infantry. he went to jettison barrett's where he soon became friends of another officer by the name of james longstreet. he would fight in the mexican war. in 1848, he married julia dance. they would have four children, three sons and one daughter. he did not like being apart from his family or his wife, especially when transferred to many of the western outpost. as a result, he may have taken up the use of alcohol. april 11, 18 54, he was promoted to captain. shortly thereafter, he was forced to resign on being under the influence of alcohol. the acceptance of that resignation was in the secretary of war office, and the secretary of war was jefferson davis. he never showed the stories that would haunt him for the rest of his life. though, in reality, he drink very little. he drink only when -- drank only when, for the most by, separated from his family. he returned to st. louis after several jobs, all of which were failures until finally his father invited him to come work in his leather goods store in illinois. he was there when the war broke out. offered his services to united states army, but without the backing of congressman washburn he probably would have never gotten the command. the local congressman had influenced and saw that the former captain got a regiment. from there, he went on to achieve great military success. for henry shiloh, china, -- chattanooga. he was ordered to washington and he was promoted to lieutenant general. i certainly can't think of anyone who went from the street corners, so to speak, of st. louis, and the leather goods store to lieutenant general in three years. he had promised, obviously. no one since george washington held that rank on a permanent basis. on march 12, he was given command of all federal forces. he took his position in the field. the field would bring forth wilderness, cold harbor, petersburg, and finally meeting with general lee. of volunteers staff officer on general need staff -- general nmean's staff observed him on several occasions and said he is of eyes of clear blue, for head high, a jar set squarely. his face has three expressions deep thought, extreme determination, and great simplicity and confidence. it was hard to shake general grant, even in the present calamity, he would always remain column. what would entitle him to be here? what instructions had he received? how would he know what to put on paper? he met with the president several times. he met with the president on march 28, and again on april 3 in petersburg. he had instructions from a march 3 telegram. he had generally instructions on how to conduct his surrender. of course, there would be no talk of other military forces. that was a political consideration to recognize the other forces as a single unit would be in a sense of recognition of the existence of the confederation, would the lincoln administration would never do. had he had any experience? his military experience. but, i venture to say, that no one had more experience of this procedure, military surrender as general grant. he accepted the surrender of four dollars -- fort donnelly, and he became known as unconditional surrender grant. on july 3 1863. could he put his terms explicitly in writing? would there be any second guessing as to what was intended? i put forward to you that he was an excellent writer. his autobiography was just completed. he died one week earlier. it is still in print today and considered one of the best autobiographies in english language. general mead said that you only need to just -- needed to read his instructions wants to understand their full complicity. he had experience, instructions, and the ability. one thing that is probably also not known about this meeting, and we will talk about what transpires is that grant smoked probably during the entire meeting. one of his staff officers said that he consumed 20 cigars per day. i don't know if he smoked that many or gave them away, or chewed on them, but they said he consumed 20 cigars, and there is no doubt that you probably smoked to relieve the tensions of the meeting during the full preceding. the first conversation between the two generals was talk of the mexican war. that wasn't something that they had written about to discuss. it may have been something that general grant brought forward to ease himself into the discussion. did generally remember general grant? -- general lee remember general grant? sunsetted no. some say the general lee did recognize them. general grant had this to say our conversation grew so pleasant, that i almost forgot the subject of our meeting. after the conversation ran on for some time, general lee brought my attention to the object of the meeting the purpose of getting me to give the terms to his army. i said sadly, his army should lay down arms and not take them up again during the civil war unless duly and properly exchange. he said he so understood my letter. we then fell off again in conversation to matters for of the subject that brought us together. this continued for some time when general lee again interrupted the course of a conversation by suggesting that the terms that i propose to his army ought to be written out. general lee called for the order book. writing in the order book, he began to write out the terms. his order book was kind of a modern copy machine. he could write out an order and have two copies below it which he could then tear out and give to other commanders if he wished. so that time would not be wasted, or the possibility of a mistake in re-copying. the terms, as written, in draft form, stated that the officers of northern virginia would be paroled until properly exchange. the arms the artillery, and all these symbols of war and public property would be surrendered. the officers could retain their personal baggage and courses. -- horses. general grant then detailed one of his staff officers to copy the terms into ink after they had been gone over three fully. -- briefly. while this was taking place, general grant said what general lee's feelings are, i do not know. he is a man as much dignity, it was impossible to say if he felt sad or was to merely to show it. what ever his feelings were, they were entirely concealed from my observations, but my own feelings, which had been jubilant, were sad and depressed. i might add that colonel parker, who would begin the process of copying this draft was not a citizen of the united states. he was a seneca indian. grant had met him in illinois when he was supervising the construction of the post office. colonel parker had gone on to study law, but not being a citizen, he was not allowed to practice. he went on to an institute in new york state, and became a civil engineer. matt recognize the man for his ability, not for his birth. actually before parker began to copy in eating and grant had given the copy to general leaee for him to read and make corrections. there was a correction to be made. the word "exchange" had been left out and lee asked for it to be included, which was granted. the terms were handed to general lee. the terms, as written, where written in ink that was provided by colonel marshall. the federals haven't brought any ink with them. mr. maclean's ego was unusable. so, we will have terms of surrender drafted by a gentleman who is not a citizen of the country, using ink from the opposing side. general lee asked general marshall to complete a letter of acceptance. he completed one, but it was unacceptable, so he required a second effort. he does not have enough paper so he must borrow taper from the federal offices. if you're are looking for symbolism in this meeting, it's all over. if this country is going to have to come together and proceed into the 20th, 21st, 20 second century, it must use the resources of all of its citizens . as well as the physical resources available to them. general grant would then rise and there would be an introduction made with some of the federal offices in the room. general lee would note that seth williams is there. he had been in west point from 1852-1855. he also noted colonel parker and said, it is good to see one real american here. you know what colonel parker said? he said, general, we are all americans. as there is anything that is symbolic with what happened in that room, it is really not about the military event. it's about the feeling that came from it. the feeling to bring about a reunification of the nation after a very bloody contests. i thank you for your indulgence. this meeting lasted until about 3:00. general lee boyd depart and general grant would depart. other events at appomattox are beyond the scope of these meetings. any question? [applause] >> we do have time for a few questions. i see a gentleman standing over here at the microphone in the aisle to the left. if you could give your name and then ask a question we would appreciate it. >> my name is jim morgan. i would like to ask you a question not about the maddox, but about something that you mention happen in general lee's life earlier the offer of the federal army. i question is if you could address the comment -- the controversy of that because there is no record of the conversation, and on the fact that lee at the time was the most junior colonel in the united states army. whether general scott, a stickler for details and protocols, would allow for his junior kernel to jump up over his other generals. >> there are about three questions there. the offer, as we understand it was made by frederick blair junior, not the senior. it was probably made on behalf of the president, who did not want to be turned down if that were the case, and actually, probably wanted to feel out general lee's real intentions and his patriotism in this case. beyond that, we don't know the details. we know that leverage and to this offer if that were made because he went over to see scott, right there after, and told him that he apparently had this offer and rejected it. scott said he was making the biggest mistake of his life. lee was held in great regard by general scott, as i mentioned one of the best soldiers in the army. he had considerable experience in staff positions. whether or not he was jumped over other people, apparently made no difference. at this point, they were looking for the right individual to handle this. and fat, one thing that grant when he became a lieutenant insisted on that he did not have the follow the order of seniority to promote officials. you will find, after general grant became commander in chief, there are a number of positions filled over and above people of older rank. that's all -- was there another part of your question? >> you mentioned some wonderful symbolism between grant and lee. could you add anything, perhaps in the same vein, of symbolism between grant after the surrender in his relationship with don singleton? >> i know very little about his relationship with singleton. he became a supporter of grant and grant appointed him to some foreign post, i believe. i know that he never unattended but one reunion in his life, the i'm aware of. i don't know the in between the two. i also know that longstreet became an ardent supporter of grant after the war, for which he paid dearly. that probably doesn't answer your question, but that's all i know about the relationship. >> richard pittsburgh. i've all the people that were at the surrender ceremony, perhaps the one that is a -- that deserve to be there the most was not george meand. any explanation for that? some say it was logistics of him getting there.