325th anniversary symposium held in massachusetts. >> all right. good afternoon. let's get started. i'm tad baker from the history department of salem state. i'd like to welcome you back to the afternoon session of salem trial. i will say about the title. that was almost the title for me book. and i was pleased actually when the gang thought it would be a good title for this day. it seems to many the trials of 1692ment as we all know those of us who live and work and hang around salem that there are other trials that are related to the trial. and to some degrees that's what we're talking about this afternoon. and our sessions on "witch city" and keynote speech by professor foot on hill. just one thought from me before i introduce the panel, and that is that it's my sincere hope that the work of the past couple years to recognize the execution site of proctors ledge and hopefully be a new start of fresh beginning for salem to really recognize officially and formally this troubled troubled history. and i just want to say i probably should have said this this morning. but the mayor and her staff and everyone in the city of salem i think has just been incredibly supportive. when we first came forward to them and told them that we had the execution site. i didn't know what the response would be. and some of us were saying how are we going to raise money to build the memorial. and what do we do. from the moment we met with the mayor, and dom nick, everyone said don't worry folks the city is doing this. this is our responsibility. we want to do this. and i think it's hopefully the beginning of sort of a new way of thinking about the past around here. so, on that note we want to look back a little bit now and talk about the creation of "witch city." something that we all know here every halloween and year round. particularly to deal with the historical roots of it in the 1th century and how it's treated. we have a wonderle panel. four goods friends and colleagues who have thought long and hard about this in different ways and each ask them to make an introductory thought. and throw out a question or two. we want to have a free ranging discussion from the audience. so first i'll introduce this speaker and we can have them go in turn. starting at the far end. a historical geographer who spent a great teal of time looking and thinking about salem as place and i will say that steve is my first encounter in the realm was i think was backing into each other on a halloween in salem. we were both madly taking pictures and realized we had been doing the same things for years. doming the amazing phenomenon that is salem and halloween. it maybe as close to mardi gras as you can get in the north. i highly recommend it. from both the amazing landscape. next to steve, is bethany jay an associate professor of history at salem state. she's one of our public historians and experts in educational history. she has also spent a lot of work and local history in looking in salem and rich past. her she's a liltle bit out of time here. she's an expert on civil wars and slavery. she's really a renound author and scholar. who is really one of the leading experts on the teaching and interpretation of museums on slavery. so we really sort of asked her to put her thinking cap on about another sort of troubled part of the past. but how we sort of interpret the salem witch trials. next in line is our department chair donna seger. who you have met before. she's really the heart and soul behind today's event. and in many ways everything having to do with salem and its rich history. in addition to being an expert on early modern history. she regularly teaches course on the european witch-hunts. and has an amazing blog called streets of salem. where she regularly blogs about all things having to do with salem history. and in fact i said she could read her blog entries this afternoon with the amazing things she's had on "witch city." last but not least, is my good friend marilynne roach. who is author on numerous books and articles on the history of the salem witch trials. most recently six women of salem. i'm hoping a six men of salem is coming. >> i'm working on it. >> also too, perhaps more important of her work. her day by day chronical of salem a community under siege is one of the most important books on the witch trials. i could not have written my book without that and also the records of the witch-hunt. i honestly think there are a lot of us who know a lot about salem. but i they marilynne knows the most and cares the most. we're honored to have her today. i'm proud to call her a colleague. so also too she knows wrote the biography over 1,300 i think for the records of the salem witch-hunt. she knows these people very well. so without further adieu we'll turn over the panel. maybe start with steve. do you want to lead off and give us some of your thoughts. and we'll go down the line and open to the audience. >> i'd like to give you background on salem as a tourist city in the beginnings of witchcraft celebration of memorials in salem. and that's i think i'm over lapping with donna a little bit. she can correct me in a few minutes. so tourism began in the colonial era. new port the first great city. followed by boston. most didn't begin until 1830 and 1840. coincides with the railroads and industrialization. salem tourism lagged. we were not a tourist destination. if we wanted to we went to the beach and the linn. it seems that 1879 there's a non-keg steam rail way. and which was in salem. there's also a horse drawn trolly that went down es ses street and to the willows. the willows is where salems tourism begins. there was the gazebo down there. the methodist summer camp changed over to be second homeowner ship. the wealthiest salem live there. especially people from loul came there. salem became a small, second tier tourism destination. in the 1880s. it's not lost that this was the home of the witchcraft hysteria in 1692. it was always part of history. apparently in the 1880s, both the witch house and the old goal the basement remained. it was on federal street. now since gone. both private residences. and you could arrange to visit both places. and that was perhaps the beginning. the turning point i think for understanding witchcraft in salem was the by centennial in 1892. at that time, there were celebrations of salem more than the witchcraft. so in salem, in 1892 i have it written down here, the city had two lectures. celebrating the date, one was on columbus and his deed. and the other was on the park act. it was up to the institute to hold the first great symposium on the witchcraft trials. and the lecture by harvard professor was were the salem witches guiltless. who knew. so professor was a psychologist. and he was applying the latest psychology theory of hypnosis, mediums, to the accused. and at the end of the day, the answer was hypnotic excess. so we can comment on that later. so 1892, salem wif craft was on the table. the institute was celebrating it. or at least questioning it, having academic discussions about it. but at the same time, on the other hand, the people were starting to come to salem to be tourists. tourism was growing in american. growing in new england. and there was a market. and salem was not shy. probably the prime mover was daniel low. whose store is now rock feller on washington street. and mr. low probably all seen the witch spoons. >> on screen here, actually. >> they'll come through. he was a great jeweler. and he made not only witch spoons but made porcelain and jewelry that celebrated lexington conquer. and saw this as a tremendous opportunity. and he suggested that salem become the "witch city." and his proposal was accepted. and by 1892, salem was officially the "witch city." and in this memorabilia behind us, at that time, all kinds of kish was popular. at tourism destinations and we fit right into the national pattern. we had our distinguishing branding. that's what it was. where the witches. and we became the "witch city." and so we had mr. lows jewelry. the porcelain. the postcards, other unique things you'd like to buy. like scissors, and thimbles. t-shirts weren't that big then. other than that we were right there. so we became the "witch city." it was not only the high school or on the police cars. i believe until 1930s. so there was a gap there. but the identity i think the branding and people became canners and beverly became panthers. and falcons. the whole thing has to do with the second tier of the industrial revolution. of a vast array of new products into the mass marketing. and we just fit into that. that was our niche. in terms of salem, and its promotion, beyond the willows early 20th century. 1908 buys a house, spends three years refurbishing and causes a quarter a person to tour the house of gable. the money the profit she makes is reinvested in the settlement house and her activity to immigrants to salem. is worth noting that the house was right on the trolly track line. and so you're uniting the center of the city, and the willows. and the house of southern gable. and that becomes the core of salem as a tourism destination. the only thing to add is shortly there after, you have hau thorn becoming a major figure in salem tourism. the development of the hau thorn hotel, boulevard, statue. 1925. and so you've got what are now thought of as two of the four major components of the salem tourist industry. the first being witchcraft. the second being hau thorn. the third being the mer time tradition. which was always present historically. and in those days probably part of the what is now the museum. where they were more of a regionally focussed institution. am i saying this correctly? there's nodding. that's a good sign. the last one is architectture. we have a tremendous fan of architecture. if there's one aspect of salems tourism which is not fully appreciated i think it's our architectural component. over the years, the witchcraft component is really surged ahead. and out of time. but i would like to end with the idea that i think that the reason why witchcraft is so dominant in salem tourism, is because of the issues that it raises. the subject matter itself. the human tragedy. and the compelling nature of the whole event. and secondarily, is the fact that there's such a tie between our popular culture and the witchcraft trials. and that in popular culture it always refreshes the general public's interest. and so there's a tremendous tie between the two. where we're never allowed to let the witchcraft trials slip totally into history. because it's always brought back to our attention. through a variety of authors, tv shows, plays. so with that, i'd like to pass the baton. >> thank you. as tad mentioned i'm ra little far afield here. as a 119th century historian. as steve has said, thinking about the history of salem as a tourist destination. those of us who spend a lot of time in salem are reminded daily as the status. we're reminded when we hit the brakes as a distracted visitor walks into the street to take a picture. as we drive home on a random wednesday in august and count numerous people in full costume. we find ourself at the national park service watching boats. we walk down the street surrounded by maintained examples of colonial and federal architecture. there are without a doubt many reasons to spend time in salem. kate fox the executive director of destination salem the main tourism marketing arm has stated that about 1 million visitors come to salem each year. about 500,000 of the visitors come during october alone. i this those statistics are relevant. in 2014 a salem news reporter asked a question that is occupied salem for a sempbl ri. what's drawing the most visitors. and salem's community offered varying responses in answer to the question. reflecting the tensions i think are at the heart. bif, author and owner of the popular witch museum contended the witch trials were the most important aspects of modern tour richl. citing the fact that 300,000 people visit the witch museum annually. he stated we're still the biggest draw in town. other members of the community thought differently. jay finny chief marketing officer which has e mernled as a major regional cultural resource argued i don't think witch related is the main engine. there are too many other things going well for salem. kate foxes response captured the complex relationship between the witch trials and. what we're finding from the research is people will come for the witch trial history and dpet here and say, i had no idea there was a national park site or didn't know the pen was here. they'll leave with a fuller experience than they expected to get. saying i have to come back. the tensions that are revealed by the varied answers to what may seem like a simple question are not new. several colleagues considered the history of salem as "witch city." and will uncover the way the community has repelled by the incomplete and perhaps exploited focus on the trial and tourism. but attracted a a unique feature that kept the city nationally relevant long past its economic and culture hay day. what i hope to do today is shift the gaze from salem to consider the city as larger conversations about memory, identity and tourism. around community identity. historian has examined the connections between identity and public historical memory. which he defines a bd of belief and idea about the past, that help the public or society understand both its past, present and its future. end quote. assigning meaning to a place is never whether it's an individual historic site, a district or entire community. is by no means an organic act. it requires specific and often coordinated acts of remembering and forgetting to create a unified narrative. this process can create tension between varying constituencies. the history of clon yal williams burg offers a useful parallel. much like salem, williams burg was a colonial power house who is influence and economy waned by the 20th century. in the 1920s a local minister decided that the city could capitalize on his historical legacy to preserve the town and revitalize the economy. he approached several investors. eventually catching the interest of john rock feller jr. who who agreed to finance the project as long as the entire city was included, not just particular buildings or districts. in examinering contrerting cont entire city, rockefeller gave himself complete power at least initially to articulate williamsburg's new tourist identity. he decided to focus on the colonial era as the city's height of influence and use the physical space as what one newspaper called a shrine where the great events in early american history and the lives of men who made it may be visualized in their proper setting. with rockefeller's $79 million investment modern williamsburg became colonial williamsburg. by the end of the era of restoration rockefeller dewill mol issued or moved 720 buildings and reconstructed or restored others to achieve a single colonial visual narrative throughout the town. his unpress ah denied purchase and power over the landscape of williamsburg prompted one shocked resident to claire, dec god, they've sold the poem. williamsburg is a unique example of restoration. but the deliberate way he approached the task is instructive as we seek to understand the more complicated negotiations around identity-making elsewhere. in salem there's no unified visual narrative. the history exists along structures from the time it was a port city, the homes and businesses of people from the modern era. the choice of which aspects of the city's history to emphasize has been at the heart of the conversations about salem's identity. with the local historic community generally resisting a disproportionate focus on the witch trials in favor of a more balanced narrative. historian steven jankarella analysis of the salem tour guides shows the effects of the competing visions of the past. salem was preparing guides to accompany it. they show districts vying for power to determine the city's identity. it plays on a more broadly defined heritage and down played the witch trials. it said we are citizens of a city with a proud history and we should consider it a privilege to explain the many point of history. a competing guide book aimed at the tourist population focused on reliable firms with which the tourists could trade and had deliberate focus on the witch trials. more recently the unveiling of a statue of samantha stevens of bewitched. i'm going past donna's 1920 cut-off date here. >> a statue, too. >> i know, yes. then mayor saw the statue at a little fun, portions of the salem community objected to it. the district commissioner john carr said, it is like tv land going to auschwitz and proposing to erect a statue of colonel klink. as historian robert weir reminds us, those who objected to the samantha statue which included a large part of the local community saw it as a trivialization of the witch trials. others such as the mayor saw it as a tribute to a different part of salem's history, the very modern association of the city as a tourist destination for halloween fun. the logo for destination salem, which i think is flashing up there, reflect the conflict over the city's identity. it offers a stylized image that can be interpreted as a sailboat or a witch hat depending on your inclination. of course, salem as a fun halloween destination and salem as witch city are related aspects of the city's identity. several historians have argued that the modern association of salem with halloween can be attributed in part at least to the popularity of the "bewitched" episodes steve referred to earlier. alongside other popular culture developments of the mid 20th century, "bewitched" reminded the larger american public about the association of salem with witchcraft. of course, the producers chose salem as a site for the episodes because of the historic association of salem and the witch trials. as we'll sort of be covered and has already been covered today, the trials of 1692 were a tragedy where innocent people suffered and died. so this brings us to our second conversation. how do we foster a vibrant memory of tragedy and tourist sites? difficult, unwelcome or unexpected narratives at historic sites can be an uncomfortable fit for bus loads of tourists expecting to enjoy a beautiful landscape or a historic home. museums and historic sites that seek to tell these stories often feel pressured to do so in a way that is still tourist-friendly. this difficulty is further complicated by the -- by studies of tourism that show that telling complicated historical narratives without correspondence artifacts often fails to have an impact on visitors. so museums that are sites of slavery, for example, struggle with this fact every day because of the lack of extant slave material culture. one visitor to colonial williamsburg remarked it was really a walking lecture, what were we seeing on this tour that had any particular relevance to the story we were being told about slavery? in the case of plantation museums the lack of material culture means that the slavery doesn't subvert the romantic vision of the old south that is more visible in the site itself. of course, some sites of slavery also lack basic information about this enslaved population, and this of course is not the case with the salem witch trials which as marilynne knows are well-documented. what salem lacks is not an historic understanding of the witch trials but a single site dedicated to telling the history using authentic artifacts from the past. i believe it is a museum that holds many artifacts but they're not on display. many of the sites associated with the witch trial were in what is now danvers or have been demolished. aside from tad bakers discovery of the execution site at proctor's ledge -- >> wait a second. i didn't discover it. we as a team confirmed what pearly did. >> well, i only had ten minutes. >> i'm sorry. one spot truly associated with the trials is the home of judge corwin, though even that building has been substantially altered from its 17th century form. as robert weir notes, one couldn't actually see much in salem other than gazing upon markers, noting where certain buildings once stood. the lack of structures or a single museum responsible for telling the history of the witch trials has left the telling that important narrative to a diverse set of sites that range from attractions to more serious attempts at historical inquiry. still, public history studies indicate in the absence of material culture connections, the actual events of 1692 have likely been overwhelmed by other parts of the tourist landscape. in this way, the public history of the witch trials is similar to the public history of slavery. just as slavery has been subordinated to a more marketable and visible "gone with the wind" narrative in plantation museums across the american south, the history of 1692 has become subordinated to a more general celebration of the macabre in salem. sites such as dracula's castle out number the sites of 169 . visitors can come to salem and leave learning little about the actual witch trials' history. this juxtaposition between rivalry and tragedy in salem brings us to our last conversation. the debate about how to reconcile sites of tragedy as tourist destinations. recently this debate has raged about the appropriateness of tourists taking selfies at "access hollywood" wits. discussing the string of photographs on social media of tourists in the barracks, in front of the gas cham pers or standing under the famed "work makes you free" sign over the entrance to the count, an author argued auschwitz is no longer an authentic site. the savagery, the millions of people that died, there's no way for it to grip you when you're this the presence of sunbathing tourists thinking about where to have lunch. salem is different than auschwitz and i'm not arguing they're the same, but underlying many people's discomfort with salem as witch city does some disservice to the city's history as a site of tragedy. this was nicely articulated by none other than donna seger who reflected on the juxtaposition between halloween revelry and the salem witch trial memorial, an understated memorial to the victims of the trials. as she wrote on the blog, december krags, the old point on charter street and the adjacent witch trial memorial were completely desecrated yesterday. there's no word more appropriate. the cemetery is simply fodder for tour groups and photo shoots and the memorial was reduced to a place people could sit down and eat their fried dough or text. drunk enclowns, literally, sat on the stones -- we can all picture it, right? sat on the stones representing the victims of 1692 while smiling tourists took their pictures. salem is a unique city and both the locals and tourists are grateful for its many ek sen trisities. as a modern tourist site it has a lot in common with other destination and its history can inform larger conversations about the creation of public memory and the role of historic tragedy at tourist sites, both how to discuss tragedy effectively and engender respect for the past while fostering an attractive atmosphere for tourists. these are not easy questions and salem will continue to grapple with them for years to come. i'm thankful for opportunities like this one where the community can come together to think about the issues together. thank you. [ applause ] >> now that you've been quoted, donna -- >> my apologies to dr. seger for multiple things. [ laughter ] >> good response to your department chair. >> thank you, both dr. matchak and dr. jay, set me up very well, very well. i see now how i'm going to fit in here, but the first thing that i really want to say that i really don't have an academic perspective on this. i don't see myself as an academic here. i certainly am not in this storied company. i kind of foisted myself on this panel because i live in salem and i love salem. so it is really very personal for me. it is very, very hard for me to talk about this topic in a detached, academic manner. i really love salem. the witch city stuff just drives me crazy. it is very, very personal for me. the only way that i can sort of deal with it is to go back to the period where dr. matchak was, the period from 1890s, up to 1910, up to maybe 1920, and i don't see it quite as such a fright train, to use your reference there that you do. i guess maybe i just want to see that there was a moment that it could have gone another way in the 1890s period, in the 1910s period many i s period. i see it as a battle that was going on. certainly the by centennial was big, nationally big. there were national articles in all of the major periodicals. there were sort of academic looks at 1892, and there was also a lot of fictional -- what was then called romantics look, young adult books, some of them that i put in there. oh, did we stop? okay. so it was big. there was daniel lowe. there was an attempt to have kind of a studied ye-old approach that was a bit more academic, and then there was a full-fledged commercial campaign, no question about it. after 1892 settled down for a bit, i was reading -- the guide books are great sources. i love to read the guide books in chronological order. to me it just looks like the official guide books are trying to say, we are a city of the china trade, we are a city of h hawthorne, we are a city of beautiful architecture, and that's the official line and they say very little about the delusion. but that doesn't quite seem to be working and they see that the spoons and the post cards and porcelain are doing very, very well. the house of seven gables and the kind of colonial revival movement here in sale 'em seems to be bolstering the architecture on one side, and then there's the commercial exploitation of witchcraft on the other. they seem to be -- you had them in sync, i see them more battling but maybe i just want to see it that way. the way that my price mansm int period, because, again, i'm an english historian, i focused a lot on the photographer and writer frank cousins, who was an amazing photographer. he was a mcintyre scholar. he was also an entrepreneur. so he was somebody that represents both sides of this. he was a businessman and he was also an academic scholar and a photographer and very much a preservationist. i think he was salem's first prominent preservationist. in his work i can see both sides, you know, the scholarly looks at samuel mcintyre and the architecture, the work that he does documenting every house in salem. beautiful photographs, beautiful street views, all of which are in the peabody essex museum and not dig tiesed. >> that's a theme here. >> but at the same time -- so i'm totally into frank cousins. i'm like, he is it for me. he is the vanguard. he's going to stop witch city because i'm convinced it is going to stop at some point in this period, this 1910 period, this is when he's most active. then i look at the archive of his shop, and what's there? witch city wares. he's playing it both sides. he's playing it both sides. he's standing up for the architectural, colonial, beautiful city that we all -- well, some of us want salem to be, but at the same time he's making money off of the witch trials. so if he couldn't do it, i don't think it is possible after that point. again, i really -- it seems to escalate. in addition to foisting myself on this panel, i also kind of made an early date -- i really didn't want to go after 1960. i understand you really want to get after 1960. i really don't want to get after 1920 because i think things get just so much more intensely commercial after that point, but i think there was a window in time where maybe we could have gone another route. i'm kind of depressed because i think the train is out of the station now, but i wistfully look back to that previous time and focus on preservation and i'm glad i'm not a salem historian so i don't have to deal with these things every day. >> thank you, donna. marilynne. >> well, salem is finally going to get a memorial, and it has been a long time coming which is actually a good thing. in 1892 the bicentennial of the witch trials a reporter was sent to salem from some national paper to interview people about this topic and he interviewed a cab driver at the railroad station. the cabby told him that when passengers had time between trains there were two things they wanted to see, where nathaniel hawthorne was born and where the witches were hanged. for the latter they were probably taken to the wrong location. the guide book sent tourists to the top of gallows hill, and in 1864 depicted a small park on what turns out to be private land at the corner of grafton street, as witch kwar whesquare they were hanged. it was declared that the summit was the site because of a tradition uniform and continuous but he did not site his sources. in fact, there was another continuing tradition, continuing in living memory today even among some of the longest-termed residents of proctor street, that the lower ledges of gallows hill was the actual spot, but upland's theory prevailed. in 1892 again, the historically-minded community proposed building a monument to those executed and collected enough funds to produce an architect rendering of a three-story, 30-foot high solid granite block lookout tower which would have offered a fine view of the harbor and the town while completely obliterating the spot. in 1898 the city of salem set aside $600 to purchase witch square because it was private land, but this project evaporated and the $600 were used to gravel the pads in salem common. although witch square was still widely believed to be the correct site of the hangings, the land's owners divided it and sold it and the place is now occupied by several houses. meanwhile, sydney pearly, one of my heroes who is a lawyer and antiquarian and he must have red every deed and will in the essex county courthouse, he is researching a series of articles on landownership up to the time of about 1700, and there's 35 articles on salem alone plus the adjacent towns that used to be salem. article number seven appeared in 1901 and clearly labeled in print and on his map the lower ledges, what we now call proctor's ledges, the site of the executions. what i only recently learned is that his article caused a furor. pearly dared to contradict the late great charles w. upland. feelings were still simmering a decade later in 1911 when the essex institute announced a walking tour that would on begin at the lower ledges where pearly would speak about why he felt that was the site of the hangings. the salem evening news presented an article about this which the newspaper titled "actual site of witch hangings" in one issue, and the following day printed an irate letter to the editor from one william nevins who had written on the trials. he was shocked, shocked that the essex institute of all places would give -- give any credence to pearly's theories which were no better than the yellow journalism plaguing newspapers of today. this was yellow antiquarianism, not to be confused with the working conclusions of real antiquaries, i'm quoting here, like charles w. upland. there are plenty of reasons to conclude the summit was the actual site but nevins didn't have the time toll you what they were. nevertheless, 200 people attended pearly's talk. in 19 1 he published a longer article why he believed it was the site. he had interviews from local elders who believed it was the site, including the future president john adams. the land descriptions in deeds and wills of the area which matched the oral traditions, and most especially the logic of the lower location as being more visible and of easier access than the summit for a public execution, which after all has to be public. in 1936 the city of salem purchased two adjacent lots on the lower ledges that were available for $500 a piece and designated this whole as witch memorial land. a rather unfortunate title, and it was to be a public park forever. forever is right in the deeds. however, the site was not marked. it was the depression, after all. since then anonymous parties have dumped trash on it. the site, the neighborhood and a great swath of salem were nearly wiped out by a proposed extension of i-95 in the 1960s, the same decade when historic salem incorporated, proposed marking the place of execution? another project faded when no one involved could agree on the exact location. in 1976 during the nation's bicentennial of the revolution when local history got attention generally, robert booth rediscovered a crevice on the ledges that pearly identified as the temporary grave of some of the victims look at, in which pearly cleared described as having been since cleared out so there was no earth or artifacts in there. this prompted discussion of archeological examination and a memorial, but nothing came of that either. the contractor who owned the unbit lau unbuilt land abutting the city land offered to sell it to any historical organization that could come up with the money or cut it up for house lots. neither happened. in the 1980s the city nearly sold the park as surplus land to a high-rise developer until vigilant neighbors reminded them what the word "forever" meant. thank goodness for them. in 1997, i found a clue in the trial papers that pearly had not mentioned. the notes for witch suspect rebecca ames hearing for august 1692, being brought to salem from foxford, she had to have traveled on present boston street and is left in the house below the hill while her guards pause to watch the excitement because a hanging was taking place. from where she was she told the m magistrates hours later she could see the execution. by itself it it tells us nothing. but pearly had done the massive research and he knew where the houses were on that stretch of road. there weren't too many of them, so she had to have been looking at proctor's ledge, not the summit from where she was. more recently, working with pearly's and the above information, benjamin ray and chris jist of the university of virginia applied a computerized view shed program which didn't exist in 1997 to the area's topography and determined proctor's ledge is the thing you can see, not the summit. now the city is landscaping the park land on proctor's ledge, the correct site, and will tend it to better preserve the place in order to honor the bravery and suffering of the 19 people put to death there. the hope is that the location will be treated respectfully by visitors who will likewise respect the privacy and peace of the site's living neighbors. so there's been a long tradition about that spot that connects us all to the all-too real tr tragedies that happened there, traditions proven by science and archival research, and that's not yellow antiquarianism. thank you. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> well, as moderator i get a chance to make a few thoughts on your wonderful ideas and maybe ask a question or two and then i will turn it over to you folks two because i'm sure you want to join in this very interesting conversation. you know, it is interesting, bethany, you talk about that one site, that one destination. as a matter of fact this semester when i was teaching my museums studies class their final exam essay question was, okay, you're the new director of a brand-new museum in salem which is going to be built somewhere near proctor's ledge and you have the chance to tell the salem witch trial story. what would you do? it was very interesting to see some of their answers. basically i guess that's kind of in some ways the dream a lot of us have, right? because we have the peabody essex museum in town which is an amazing world-class library we are lucky to have, but it has an interesting history, right? because it is this merger of the old peabody museum of natural history and the essex institute, the historical institution. when they merged, history very quickly left their mission and they became an art museum. art museums are wonderful places. one of my daughters actually in graduate school for art history so i don't di is ss the field, but in some ways it can be very different than history in that they the aren't all that interested in the interpretation that historians might have, right? so what we see right here is the peabody essex museum has the -- well, not the ownership, but they have -- through agreement with the state of massachusetts they hold for the state all of the salem witch trial documents, right? over 900 of them i guess it is. they also have all of these amazing objects that are associated with the people from salem in the 17th century including those from the witch trials, including the portrait of judge samuel sewell. so in some ways if they were a history museum they would have the ability to tell that story and tell it with authority, right? to tell it right. but they're not. >> with dignity. >> with dignity. but they're not, so in that sense the organization that has the best chance to do it has sort of abdicated their moral authority and the moral high ground and the scholarly high ground to do it right. i'm not sure how we -- what we do with something about that. i thought about this a bit as i was in england recently, and i always drag my wife to all of the different museums and tourist attractions. i went to the viking center in york which is this really interesting -- it is a controversial place because it is this really good, amazing museum in york, england of viking archeological excavations but you go through part of it through a reconstructed viking village in a cart ride underground. it is part of like anamatronic vikings and so on. it is a little different. some people are sort of pooh-poohing that approach. i am wondering would it be possible for salem to do something like this, to make a high-tech, modern sort of -- especially virtual presentation of salem in 1692 and the witch trials tastefully, with proper moral authority, mixed in with objects from 1692 and replicas, right? i mean it is probably -- it is a dream -- if anyone is out there who wants -- who has millions of dollars to start such an institution, please come talk to us. i don't think it will happen, but i would like to think we need something like that to try to change the narrative. what is interesting to me too is steve and don are both sort of talking about the late 19th, early 20th century where it seems like, you know, for that brief and shining moment that was cam lelot, maybe? there was a chance even though we were witch city, we weren't going to be witch city, that maybe it didn't have to be that way. there seems to be something -- there is -- and i want to talk about it. there is an ebb and flow even to this day that salem has very strong and mixed feelings about what parts of our heritage we want to portray, to whom, for what reasons, right? and even in the creation of gallows hill there's this dichotomy, the ebb and flow. we want to build a memorial, no, we don't. even if it is in the wrong place, we don't want to do this. i was particularly -- i want to mention one thing. you mentioned about the 1936 when the parcel is finally purchased, and that's really interesting. i was actually giving a talk on proctor's ledge and emily murphy, who is a friend of many of ours, the historian for the park service in salem, a talented historian and curator. she said, wait a second, i think i know what might have happened because in 1936 the city of salem, she pointed out, was buying up tracks of land in the city for the creation two years later -- i'm not quite sure how they knew this, what was in the works with our congressman in washington, but they were planning to create salem national maritime historic site, which of course is the first historic site in the national park service. if you don't know, salem is filled with many, many firsts. so she kind of -- she threw out the question, i don't know, maybe we could research this, was proctor's ledge purchased by the city as a part of that effort and for reason -- a couple of years later maybe they said, no, no, wait a second, we're the national maritime -- maybe the park service said, we don't want to do witchcraft either. this is nowhere near the waterfront, city of salem, you can keep that parcel. i don't know if that happened, but it is an interesting sort of twist to it. so i think it is like emily said, we would have to see if we could sort of explore. beth, maybe it is a good internship for one of our students, to research that. >> the witch trials would have been a departure, right, from what the park service was trying to accomplish with the initial historic sites, which was really sort of the great march of american civilization. >> right, the dead white man history in many ways and this is not exactly the shining moment, so maybe we don't want to talk about witches. i guess that's kind of the question that i will throw out to you folks, is this whole issue of witch city. i guess to me to some degree of -- it seems to me it is our own sort of self-imposed scarlet letter we have managed to give ourselves and that we may not ever have bit that memorial in 1892 or, you know, even in the early to mid 20th century or may not have built it at proctor's ledge until now. but to some degree, to what degree there's the sort of monicker of which city, is that our ownership of this or not? i guess if that's the case then, donna -- maybe is that necessarily a bad thing? i guess my thought, is it -- are we witch city forever? is that necessarily a horrible thing? what do you think? donna, i know you are just -- >> it is hard for me because the cameras. you know, those of you who know me, i would have a lot to say on this and i don't really want to say it. [ laughter ] >> but i will -- >> i'm sorry. i didn't mean to put you on the spot, but now is your opportunity. >> i will say that i like that idea of a self-imposed scarlet letter. i think that's how it started but i don't think it is that way anymore. i think it has become more than that. i think it is -- and i think that largely has happened, and this is what makes me sad. but outsiders more than insiders, i think we've kind of lost a lot of our ability of self-identity at this point. i mean the salem witch museum is not owned by somebody that lives in salem. some of the largest businesses that are witch-related in salem are not owned by people that live in salem. tv land put samantha there, you know. tv. >> land? >> donna tried to get them to remove it without much luck. >> so i think we have given up it seems to me. it is obviously economic. i mean steve is exactly right. i would really like to see the numbers. if you're critical of any of this, everyone says, but it brings jobs to salem, it brings jobs to salem, it is such an important part of our economy. well, because of the cost of terrorism these days, i don't know if you have been here on halloween but there's so much security, it is also very expensive enterprise for the city now. i would really like to see the economics on it frankly. i think everyone just assumes it is an economic engine for us. i'm not sure that's true. it might be true, but i would argue that it is benefitting a lot of people outside salem as well as people -- maybe more than people inside salem. >> so it is not a good thing. >> well -- >> you would like to get rid of witch city. bethany? >> there's been so much scholarship about the witch trials, you know, tad and others -- you know, he talked about -- and i feel like that conversation exists and then salem exists, but the two don't meet for the average person. >> right. >> that's i think -- i mean that's where i think a lot of the discomfort is, is that people kind of come and they spend however much time here and they leave probably not knowing a lot more about 1692, maybe leaving with the impression that the accused in 1692 were witches. >> yep. >> depending on where they visit. so i think that's part of the -- i mean the american public is very interested in the witch trials, there's a lot of scholarly attention to the witch trials, but it is not happening in salem and historic sites unless they're coming to see you give a talk. >> they come here and get fried dough and vampire fangs and go home, right? >> yeah. >> that's the question. it is interesting you point it out. salem is this place that people want to come to. it is a destination and it is associated with the witch trials, but as kate fox would tell you, right, when they come here they're not entirely sure where they're supposed to go. there is no sort of signal place, right? this is it. if you go to boston, you're going to freedom trail, to faneuil hall. you're here in salem and there's an opportunity to get that story and get it well, but i'm not sure -- first, i'm not sure how we do that, right. >> more history and less halloween. >> more history and less halloween. that's the other part that's almost impossible. frankly, i will admit -- i think most of us, i have given up. maybe you have too. i have gotten to the stage where, oh, we would love to hear you -- they say, we would love to hear you come talk or can you appear on tv or the radio. great, i would be glad to do it now. no, no, we don't want you now. we want you on october 31st. all right. to what degree -- what i like to do, i say, okay, the first thing i'm going to do is you realize there's no connection. >> there isn't. >> is there anything we can do, marilynne? >> well, i don't know. you can try to do the history, try to get their attention with it and hope that they at least remember some of that before they get their vampire fangs and fried dough. >> i think a lot of -- steve, you might know better than i do. if i'm remembering francis hill's chapter, the museum stopped displaying the witch artifacts, the witch trials' artifacts around the time that "haunted happenings" was growing, the 1970s, 1980s. >> a little into the 1990s, it came back a little bit. >> a room over on the side. >> with documents behind the curtain. >> it feels like kind of an abdication of the story to the non-historical community. >> right. >> since they absorbed the history, the essex institute which was a history museum, shouldn't it be part of their mission to tell the actual facts? this is a rhetorical question. [ applause ] >> okay. people agree. i'm not alone in this. >> steve, what do you make of this? >> i agree completely with marilynne. i agree completely. i think the opportunity is really for the p.m. to step and if they have the resources they do have and they have houses and buildings they aren't using and they are refurbishing the ei, the old building, it is in a wayer to them to sway for them to say, we're going to take the leadership position and there will be one attract, just one, which will have an authentic focus on the witchcraft trial using authentic materials, and that could stand in relationship to all of the other venues that are open. at least there will be someplace for an historical, academic, thoughtful exhibition. i'm sure that it will be profitable. i'm sure that many people would want to see it as they do other sites. it doesn't have to be in the new building. it doesn't have to be in the gallery next to the moving art museums. there should be enough space in town for them to have an exhibition, a destination which would greatly add to salem's veracity when it comes to promoting or studying or offering halloween and witchcraft at the same time. i mean that balance. to donna's point, i think -- i mean tourists were originally pleasure seekers and they sought pleasure, and that's not necessarily academic. so i think the whole thrust of tourists most of the time will be for pleasurable activities, including vampire fangs and fried dough. so i think that that's going to be undeniable and that's going to be the primary thrust of salem's tourism. i just would really hope there would be some part of it which becomes far more authentic. >> and i think to get back to your point, when you were talking about the boosterism in the late 19th century and the creation of witch city and tanner city and shoe city, you know, and where i grew up in worcester county you had a gardner -- big chair city, right? or toy town or the neighboring town, pioneer plastic city which now, you know, and if you go to the local tourist shop they have pink flamingos for sale here because they were first made and invented by a guy in pittsburgh. here is my point. the whole idea of witch city that was created in the 1890s was i think meant to be a point of local boosterism and pride. maybe it has sort of gotten unduly twisted and coopted over time in most unfortunate ways. well, we could go on talking among ourselves forever, but we have 20 minutes or so left and i know a lot of people would love to ask questions. don, why don't you -- >> everyone would like to step to the microphone. even though you're right there, it is right there. >> oh. >> i'm interested in steve's comment that the witch city and hawthorne sort of merged. my observation without any particular evidence has been that hawthorne was introduced to sort of displace the witch city, to bring the image of salem to a higher level. certainly after the salem fire of 1914 hawthorne boulevard was laid out, and then in the early '20s the hawthorne hotel was bit and the house of the seven gables moved the hawthorne birthplace to show that to the public, and i have occasionally seen a business that doesn't say witch city but says hawthorne. there was a hawthorne cleaners at one time, something like that. my question is, is hawthorne part of witch city or is it an alternative to witch city? >> great question, john. >> great question. >> what do people think? steve? >> i think it is neither. i think they're just on separate tracks. i think you had the witch city track which we've discussed, and then you had the hawthorne track. just say during the early mid 20th century hawthorne became part of america's literally canon and every high school student right after the shakespeare reading there was "a scarlet letter." it was part of american education. it was celebrated as a major author. his house, the house of seven gables were primary landmarks. i think he was especially important in the creation of the national park. i think the fact that he was a surveyor of the customs, i think it is three years, three months and twelve days or something. he looked out that front window and he saw derby wharf, the original first chapter of "the house of seven gables" is -- i mean "scarlet letter" is about the customs house. the manuscript was found in the safe of the customs house. i think that connection helped our congressional delegation make the empty customs house the first national historic site in the country. i mean i think it was political muscle, the depression and hawthorne which made it all possible. i think emerton, she made house of seven gables a tourist attraction. i don't think she thought of, gee, we're witch city, we're going to do something opposed to it or parallel. i think they said, here is an economic opportunity. here is a cultural resource which we can develop independently of the witchcraft trials. so i think -- i don't see them as combining. i think salem as a tourist destination becomes a basket with more than one egg in it. i think salem probably has several eggs in the basket. it has the maritime, it has the hawthorne. as i said before, the architectural is usually the fourth leg of this. so i think it is a combination of things. so although salem may always be witch city and have that earlier monicker, it will have other important places to see within it and they don't displace each other or really compete with each other. i think just exist separately of each other but happen to be in the same place. i don't think they necessarily complement each other either. is that okay? >> next question? you want to take the mike, please? >> okay. i'm fascinated by the proctor's ledge background and also this new memorial. one of the things about the site though is it is quite a walk from the main area of salem. i was wondering, that's the hanging site but has there been any discussion of creating, say, a marker for the site of the giles corey pressing at howard street which is, again, so much closer to the center of town? >> marilynne, your our giles corey expert. she will tell you it probably wasn't howard street, but do you want to speak about giles? >> i wrote an article about this for a jegenealogical magazine. it is somewhere near the jail or in the jail yard because that big building i think is the whole block of it, but it is outside and people are watching it. so it is not away from the public. i mean you want to make a warning to what people aren't supposed to do or this can happen to you. where the howard street burying ground is was somebody's backache raj a back acreage and there were a couple of stonewalls. you would have to go around and get into it, somebody's backyard. there was a pasture next door, it didn't have a house on it. presumably it was used for a cow or something, and it was owned by thomas proctor who -- >> putnam you mean? >> putnam, excuse me. gosh, what a difference. [ laughter ] >> thank you for that. yeah, thomas putnam whose daughters the night before the pressing had been visited by corey's ghost to remind -- no, to the ghost that his victim, jacob gooddale who said, corey killed me, this is only appropriate because now he's going to die too. she said -- they made sure the judges knew it. >> yes. >> so if they had to do this on public property nearby, because why go at a distance, i don't think putnam would have objected, and it was right there. location, location, location. >> on what's now washington street, towards the train station. >> really? >> having said that -- >> well, what is -- >> court street, church street? >> towards it. >> behind the jail towards washington street. it is on the same side, back towards -- yeah, but i think the biggest question is as far as on memorials -- >> well, a plaque on the ild abouting maybe. >> you could i suppose. again, we're not -- that's something we're not sure about. >> it is likely. >> it is private property. but i think -- i guess there are bigger questions as to what we do at proctor's ledge, and it is -- i go back and think isn't it too bad it isn't the 17th century or that when the city owned all of that land or that they parsed some of it out. now what we're trying to do there, it is a balancing act because the site is in the backyard of a neighborhood. there really isn't parking. there are also traffic problems there. so but having said this, what the city is doing there in addition to the memorial at proctor's ledge, there is nearby parking up in gallow's hill park. there will be a panel, a historical panel put up in there which describes the event. there's places to park, and so it is -- there are a number of these in salem already if you have seen some of them, but there will be one specifically on the whole proctor's ledge and gal owes hill placed there. there will be another site nearby that is frankly more accessible, you don't have to worry about being run over, where you would be able to sort of get that story as well, too. on the corner of happy and healthy will still be there. [ laughter ] >> one thing that this has done for me today is opened my -- i'm from new hampshire. opened my eyes to the real dilemma that the city of salem is in. i don't think the majority of people know this, how torn it seems to be. i think the whole halloween, sorry, is inevitable. we are a culture of theme parks. i think at this point, i think your point is well-taken that there needs to be another site within the city that is dedicated to what we're here for today, because people do see salem as a theme park. the other question i have is, is there a european counterpart to salem, any city in europe in this situation? >> there is, no. >> so you're the only -- >> we're the witchcraft capital of the world. >> no, there are some that are getting there, but they're late to the party and there just is not -- in my presentation we talked about, you know, the huge witch trials and van burg and i showed very sedate memorials. no, there is no equivalence of salem. >> and our american take on halloween too is very different from european celebrations. >> exactly. >> we also have the difference that there's an active witch community of people who identify themselves as witches here today. so i think that's a difference, too. >> that's absolutely true. the salem story gets sort of tangled with neo paganism and the wiccan community who refer to themselves as witches, which frankly makes things very confusing. it makes for a rich community but i have to be careful what i say, there are no witches, because i will have some of my students say, wait a second, professor, what about me. there's another question back there. >> this idea of a place to tell the story of the salem trials in one spot, i'm wondering what responsibility would salem then have to tell the stories of the lives of the victims who did not all reside in salem because -- and full disclosure, i'm from the andover historical society. but i'm interested because you're talking about the december krags desecration of graves, but i'm thinking of people who were taken from their homes and accused of something they couldn't imagine, what responsibility would there be to sell those stories, as well? >> fascinating. >> we talked about this in the earlier panel too of -- of the balancing act between telling a really in-depth, complex, complicated history and telling something that is manageable. you know what i mean? for your tourist population. so as historians, right, we always want to tell the whole story and, you know, ideally that information would be available, but then that would be a sort of curatorial sbe interpretation of how long people are going to stay here, how long will the experience be, how far are we from the fried dough. that would have to be the questions. >> i think part of the problem -- you have so many people. i felt obligated to make sure in my book that i mentioned all of the people who died by name, but beyond that there's another 150 to go and, again, actually thanks to margo burns, i used her wonderful list of accused in my apendices which got everyone in there in some way. the problem is there are so many compelling stories, and how do you -- how do you try to tell them all and tell them well and say, yes, there were more people accused from andover than anywhere else? i think the key is we have the basis here that we could do it. to me the stories are so compelling and that's what people like in history, are these personal stories, and they are from people throughout the region with different background, some who were born in england, others who came from other places and arrive here. but the problem is, again, it becomes a sort of territorial choice. to me personally, i think it is our responsibility to tell their story here without a doubt, even if they were from andover. i spent three years, so i love andover, but i will say -- north andover, too. i will say this, what is interesting to me, i spent three years at the academy, and stacey who wrote the book on the salem witch trials was there at the same time, and i don't think either of us had any concept that andover had anything to do with the witch trials. maybe that's the nature of the business. to me part of this is the process of ownership for salem and the whole region that this is our conflicted past. >> if there were a museum founded in salem or at the peabody essex, at least focusing on giles corey would be something. more is known about some individuals than others. sometimes you're lucky to get birth, death and marriages, if that. but if you can bring some of the people alive and have other recognized as individuals with stories, then it grabs you into history. >> the other thing is the center is virtual. i had an app to take around town and look at the different sites, and in an app you could have the people there and look up their biography. in the 17th century, we are talking about thousands of people, you can't tell all of their stories, but center piece is a touch korean that yscreen touch on a part of the map and hear a story from somebody that lived in that community. there are ways we could do that, of giving people the options of learning some of the different stories and narratives. again, if someone wants to write a check for a couple of million dollars to get the ball rolling, talk to us afterwards, please. back there. >> i'm not -- as i'm saying this i'm not quite sure if it is a statement or a question. >> all right. i'm sure you'll get a response from this group. >> no, i think what you're saying about having a purpose to the audience, and donna was saying about the fact they're not witches and having an audience coming away from salem knowing that, and then how you guys are saying i actually bring the personal and tell that story. because as you were saying right at the very beginning of this whole day, how do you condense what you do into one hour, you know, one-hour lecture, how do you provide an overview? is that what your audience of salem is coming for or do they want witchcraft light? but having a person tell that story, and i'm just thinking back to the most emotive i had in a museum that stayed with me, and that was actually -- was a holocaust museum. again, i'm not comparing it, right. but what i got -- and this was going back to when i was a teenager, was you got a card and it corresponded to a living person. at each level you find out about that person, and then at the end you find out if they lived or they died. that really stuck with me because i was like, it took the message home. it really hit me. i thought with having that message that donna was saying, you know, coming back to the fact it is like are they witches and do you want people to come away from witch city going, it is not really witch city, or it is witch city for the macabre which i think is great because if you could separate the macabre from the actual story would be great because the kitsch can have the kitsch, and the people with the witchy hats can do that, but they come away with the right legacy. i think the personal, from my little time in salem has done, the personal shows that. again, it is a statement and a question, i guess. >> any responses? i like what you said. >> definitely. >> other questions? don. >> just an observation. if you're looking -- >> hang on a second is. hold on to that observation. so much for spontaneity. we have to get a microphone. get the microphone over here for him, if you would. >> there's one right here. >> she has a question. >> oh, i'm sorry. don, you're next. i'm sorry. >> i do. i think most of us came today to see what new things we might learn that we didn't know before, and i think that it has been a most successful day in that respect. i certainly as a person who thinks of herself as a historian like the idea of having some sort of entity that would tell the true stories as much as we can don yucument what we can of witch trials. i'm a retired employee of two of the institutions mentioned, so i'm happy to see some of the employees of them here today. i'm wondering if there are people in this group that would try to advocate for that. that's a question i will leave you all with. >> thank you, irene, for that one. any responses? >> that's too hard. >> i'm looking at donna. >> irene, it is kind of an uphill battle, right? i think -- i think if we -- again -- to me i come back to i really hope that the confirmation of proctor's ledge is a way to sort of trigger that pra broader kind of discussion where maybe we can get community support for those kind of ideas. no for or five of us or a room full of us will be able to do this? it will take a groundswell from the community to do it. >> this is a start. >> i would hope so. now, don, i apologize. >> if one is looking for a model for biographies, i suggest the -- in petersburg, virginia the national museum of the civil war soldier where individual biographies are presented. that could get at the whole witchcraft episode, including those who died but also others who were accused and also the accusers, and even other people in the area who were -- the judges. but those individual biographies are very effective there. >> don, how do they do it there? how do they present those? is it multi-media, through their objects? >> my recollection -- and it has been some years since i've been there -- is that the visitor selects a profile to follow in there, but it is not multi-media. it is a little older than multi-media. >> some of us are a little older than multi-media. >> yes, but it is effective. now they may be doing it differently, but it gets at the individuals. i think the point made that finding the lives of these individuals can get us much closer to the whole story. >> absolutely. we have time for maybe one or two more questions if people have them. charlie, and then over here. >> your reference to the viking center called to mind, we visited it. >> it just reopened and it is better they tell me. >> i think so, but it might be an interesting model because they recognize people coming there are coming for different purposes with different backgrounds. the ground floor, if you will, is a typical walk-through exhibit of maps, of artifacts, of documents. and then, as you mentioned, in the basement at what was the historic level is, for lack of a better name, a disney-like ride along an animatronic recreation of the viking village. so it kind of meets both needs. here is what is left behind, here are the broaches, here are the documents, and then let's people experience it. because going back to williamsburg, the people want to be able to see it, to feel it, smell it. that's what's real to them and that's what they remember so that they leave behind the vampire teeth. >> if you haven't been to the viking center, they have a latrine in the animatronic section and i've had students send me a scratch-and-sniff post card. >> this program has been excellent. thank you. >> so i live in the neighborhood and i'm interested in frank cousins. i actually live on a street named after him. where can we find out more information on frank cousins, see some of his actual photographs? that's one question. the second question is part of a historic neighborhood association, what can we do to help to create an actual museum that's not somebody screaming at you with dioramas, it's an actual good museum? >> donna? >> frank cousins is a little elusive. the p.m. at the library has all of his photographs, thousands and thousands of his photographs. there's different -- a couple of other smaller libraries that digitized portions. whenever i'm going to use a cousins' photographs i go to duke university's urban landscape collection where there are about 200 of his photographs. >> those are available online? >> yes. you also have his books, of course, in which most of his photographs are in the books. historic new england -- he had an art company, too. i think i neglected to tell you his reach was national because he was so entrepreneurial. he had the frank cousins art company and he would market -- everyone wanted pictures of ye old salem and he gave them all. they show up in all of these periodicals in the 1890s and 1910s and 1920s. so historic new england has digitized his salesman book with all of his samples. it is lovely to see it because you can see the kind can of mix of ye oldy and then the few witchcraft things put in there. what can you do to help? i don't know. i don't know. >> are there any resources for his work he did in philadelphia and new york and all? >> yeah, well, there's the books that he published both on philadelphia and new york. the new york preservation society has a little archive of his photographs that you can access online as well. a lot of -- if you go through sort of architectural publications from the 1890s, 1910s, his photographs are constantly popping up in them. he really had a big reach. he was the go-to guy for the old salem house everyone wanted to see, whether it had any connection to witchcraft or not. >> all right. well, it is 3:00 so i want to thank our panel for a great job. [ applause ] on thursday from american history tv's weekly series "the presidency," a discussion on the lead-up to john f. kennedy's 1960 presidential campaign as well as a look behind the scene in richard nixon's white house. watch those programs and more thursday night on american history tv starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span3. thursday on c-span 2, addressing the north korean threat. a panel talks about north korea's nuclear program and missile capabilities as well as human rights and the role of china. live coverage begins at 9:15 a.m. eastern. at noon on c-span 2, a look at biological threats and the potential for terrorism. biosecurity experts and medical professionals will look at our preparedness for manmade threats and natural out. >> breaks like ebola and zika. this weekend on c-span, thursday at 8:00 with the budget for the congress to handle, we will look at pending proposals. friday, a profile interview with sonny purdue. >> my political history was i tell people when i was born in 1946 in perry, georgia, they stamped democrat on your birth certificate. i made a police cal decisiticald i call it truth in advertising, in 1998 to change parties and became a republican at that point in time. >> followed at 8:30 p.m. by a conversation with black hat and devcon founder jeff moss. >> there were no jobs in information security for any of us. the only people doing security were maybe people in the military or banks. this is really a hobby. well, as the internet grew and there were jobs and people were putting things online and there was money at risk, all of a sudden hackers started getting jobs doing a security. >> listen using the free c-span radio app and watch on c-span and c-span.org. >> this year marks the 3525th anniversary of the salem witch trials. in this program author kenneth foote talks about memorializing sites like salem. his book on the subject is titled "shadows ground, america's landscapes of violence and tragedy." this is the keynote speech from the salem state university symposium on the legacy of the witch trials.

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