Transcripts For CSPAN3 Salems Witch City Notoriety 20170824

I will say about the title. That was almost the title for me book. And i was pleased actually when the gang thought it would be a good title for this day. It seems to me the trials of 1692ment as we all know those of us who live and work and hang around salem that there are other trials that are related to the trial. And to some degrees thats what were talking about this afternoon. And our sessions on witch city and keynote speech by professor foot on hill. Just one thought from me before i introduce the panel, and that is that its my sincere hope that the work of the past couple years to recognize the execution site of proctors ledge and hopefully be a new start of fresh beginning for salem to really recognize officially and formally this troubled troubled history. And i just want to say i probably should have said this this morning. But the mayor and her staff and everyone in the city of salem i think has just been incredibly supportive. When we first came forward to them and told them that we had the execution site. I didnt know what the response would be. And some of us were saying how are we going to raise money to build the memorial. And what do we do. From the moment we met with the mayor, and dominic, everyone said dont worry folks the city is doing this. This is our responsibility. We want to do this. And i think its hopefully the beginning of sort of a new way of thinking about the past around here. So, on that note we want to look back a little bit now and talk about the creation of witch city. Something that we all know here every halloween and year round. Particularly to deal with the historical roots of it in the 19th century and how its treated. We have a wonderful panel. Four goods friends and colleagues who have thought long and hard about this in different ways and each ask them to make an introductory thought. And throw out a question or two. We want to have a free ranging discussion from the audience. So first ill introduce this speaker and we can have them go in turn. Starting at the far end. A historical geographer who spent a great deal of time looking and thinking about salem as place and i will say that steve is my First Encounter in the realm was i think was backing into each other on a halloween in salem. We were both madly taking pictures and realized we had been doing the same things for years. As scholars documenting the amazing phenomenon that is salem and halloween. It maybe as close to mardi gras as you can get in the north. I highly recommend it. From both the amazing landscape. Next to steve, is bethany jay an associate professor of history at salem state. Shes one of our public historians and experts in educational history. She has also spent a lot of work and local history in looking in salem and its rich past. Her shes a little bit out of time here. Shes an expert on civil wars and slavery. Shes really a renowned author and scholar. Who is really one of the leading experts on the teaching and interpretation of museums on slavery. So we really sort of asked her to put her thinking cap on about another sort of troubled part of the past. But how we sort of interpret the salem witch trials. Next in line is our Department Chair donna seager. Who you have met before. Shes really the heart and soul behind todays event. And in many ways everything having to do with salem and its rich history. In addition to being an expert on early modern history. She regularly teaches course on the european witchhunts. And has an amazing blog called streets of salem. Where she regularly blogs about all things having to do with salem history. And in fact i said she could read her blog entries this afternoon with the Amazing Things shes had on witch city. Last but not least, is my good friend marilynne roach. Who is author on numerous books and articles on the history of the salem witch trials. Most recently six women of salem. Im hoping a six men of salem is coming. Im working on it. Also too, perhaps more important of her work. Her day by day chronicle of salem a community under siege is one of the most important books on the witch trials. I could not have written my book without that and also the records of the witchhunt. I honestly think there are a lot of us who know a lot about salem. But i really think marilynne knows the most and cares the most. Were honored to have her today. Im proud to call her a colleague. So also too she knows wrote the biography over 1,300 i think for the records of the salem witchhunt. She knows these people very well. So without further adieu well turn over the panel. Maybe start with steve. Do you want to lead off and give us some of your thoughts. And well go down the line and open to the audience. Id like to give you background on salem as a tourist city in the beginnings of witchcraft celebration of memorials in salem. And thats i think im over lapping with donna a little bit. She can correct me in a few minutes. So tourism began in the colonial era. New port the first great city. Followed by boston. Most didnt begin until 1830 and 1840. Coincides with the railroads and industrialization. Salem tourism lagged. We were not a Tourist Destination. If we wanted to we went to the beach and the linn. It seems that 1879 theres a nonkeg steam railway. And which was in salem. Theres also a horse drawn trolly that went down es ses street and to the willows. The willows is where salems tourism begins. There was the gazebo down there. The methodist summer camp changed over to be second homeownership. The wealthiest salem live there. Especially people from lowell came there. Salem became a small, second tier tourism destination. In the 1880s. Its not lost that this was the home of the witchcraft hysteria in 1692. It was always part of our history. Apparently in the 1880s, both the witch house and the old goal the basement remained. It was on federal street. Now since gone. Both private residences. And you could arrange to visit both places. And that was perhaps the beginning. The turning point i think for understanding witchcraft in salem was the by centennial in 1892. At that time, there were celebrations of salem more than the witchcraft. So in salem, in 1892 i have it written down here, the city had two lectures. Celebrating the date, one was on columbus and his deed. And the other was on the park act. It was up to the Essex Institute to hold the first great symposium on the witchcraft trials. And the lecture by harvard professor Barrette Wendell was were the salem witches guiltless. Who knew. So professor was a psychologist. And he was applying the latest psychology theory of hypnosis, mediums, to the accused. And at the end of the day, the answer was hypnotic excess. So tad can comment on that later. So 1892, salem witchcraft was on the table. The institute was celebrating it. Or at least questioning it, having academic discussions about it. But at the same time, on the other hand, the people were starting to come to salem to be tourists. Tourism was growing in american. Growing in new england. And there was a market. And salem was not shy. Probably the prime mover was daniel low. Whose store is now rockefeller on washington street. And mr. Low probably all seen the witch spoons. On screen here, actually. Theyll come through. He was a great jeweler. And he made not only witch spoons but made porcelain and jewelry that celebrated lexington, concord. And saw this as a tremendous opportunity. And he suggested that salem become the witch city. And his proposal was accepted. And by 1892, salem was officially the witch city. And in this memorabilia behind us, at that time, all kinds of kish was popular. At tourism destinations and we fit right into the national pattern. We had our distinguishing branding. Thats what it was. Where the witches. And we became the witch city. And so we had mr. Lows jewelry. The porcelain. The postcards, other unique things youd like to buy. Like scissors, and thimbles. Tshirts werent that big then. Other than that we were right there. So we became the witch city. It was not on the high school or on the police cars. I believe until 1930s. So there was a gap there. But the identity i think the branding and people became canners and beverly became panthers. And falcons. The whole thing has to do with the second tier of the industrial revolution. Of a vast array of new products into the mass marketing. And we just fit into that. That was our niche. In terms of salem, and its promotion, beyond the willows early 20th century. 1908 buys a house, spends three years refurbishing and charges a quarter a person to tour the house of gable. The money the profit she makes is reinvested in the settlement house and her activity to immigrants to salem. Is worth noting that the house was right on the trolly track line. And so youre uniting the center of the city, and the willows. Gables. And that becomes the core of salem as a tourism destination. The only thing to add is shortly there after, you have hawthorn becoming a major figure in salem tourism. The development of the hawthorn hotel, boulevard, statue. 1925. And so youve got what are now thought of as two of the four major components of the salem tourist industry. The first being witchcraft. The second being hawthorn. The third being the maritime tradition. Which was always present historically. And in those days probably part of the what is now the museum. Where they were more of a regionally focussed institution. Am i saying this correctly . Theres nodding. Thats a good sign. The last one is architecture. We have a tremendous fan of architecture. If theres one aspect of salems tourism which is not fully appreciated i think its our architectural component. Over the years, the witchcraft component is really surged ahead. And out of time. But i would like to end with the idea that i think that the reason why witchcraft is so dominant in salem tourism, is because of the issues that it raises. The subject matter itself. The human tragedy. And the compelling nature of the whole event. And secondarily, is the fact that theres such a tie between our Popular Culture and the witchcraft trials. And that in Popular Culture it always refreshes the general publics interest. And so theres a tremendous tie between the two. Where were never allowed to let the witchcraft trials slip totally into history. Because its always brought back to our attention. Through a variety of authors, tv shows, plays. So with that, id like to pass the baton. Thank you. As tad mentioned im ra little far afield here. As a 19th century historian. As steve has said, thinking about the history of salem as a Tourist Destination. Those of us who spend a lot of time in salem are reminded daily about the citys status as a Tourist Destination. Were reminded when we hit the brakes as a distracted visitor walks into the street to take a picture. As we drive home on a random wednesday in august and count numerous people in full costume. We find ourself at the National Park service watching boats. We walk down the street surrounded by maintained examples of colonial and federal architecture. There are without a doubt many reasons to spend time in salem. Kate fox the executive director of destination salem the main Tourism Marketing arm has stated that about 1 million visitors come to salem each year. About 500,000 of the visitors come during october alone. Ic those statistics are still relevant. In 2014 a salem News Reporter asked a question that is occupied salem for more than a century. Whats drawing the most visitors. And salems community offered varying responses in answer to the question. Reflecting the tensions i think are at the heart. Bif, author and owner of the popular witch museum contended the witch trials were the most important aspects of salems modern tourism. Citing the fact that 300,000 people visit the witch museum annually. He stated were still the biggest draw in town. Other members of the community thought differently. Jay finny chief marketing officer which has emerged as a major regional Cultural Resource argued i dont think witch related is the main engine. There are too many other things going well for salem. Kate foxs response captured the complex relationship between the witch trials and status as a Tourist Destination. She said, what were finding from the research is people will come for the witch trial history and get here and say i had no idea there was a National Park site or didnt know the pen was here. Theyll leave with a fuller experience than they expected to get. Saying i have to come back. The tensions that are revealed by the varied answers to what may seem like a simple question are not new. Several colleagues considered the history of salem as witch city. And will uncover the way the community has repelled by the incomplete and perhaps exploited focus on the trial and tourism. But attracted as a unique feature that kept the city nationally relevant long past its economic and culture hay day. What i hope to do today is shift the gaze from salem to consider the city as larger conversations about memory, identity and tourism. The first of these conversations revolves around community identity. Historian has examined the connections between identity and public historical memory. Which he defines a body of beliefs and idea about the past, that help the public or society understand both its past, present and its future. End quote. Assigning meaning to a place is never whether its an individual Historic Site, a district or entire community. Is by no means an organic act. It requires specific and often coordinated acts of remembering and forgetting to create a unified narrative. This process can create tension between varying constituencies. The history of Colonial Williamsburg offers a useful parallel. Much like salem, williamsburg was a colonial power house who is influence and economy waned by the 20th century. In the 1920s a local minister decided that the city could capitalize on its historical legacy to preserve the town and revitalize the economy. He approached several investors. Eventually catching the interest of John Rockefeller jr. Who agreed to finance the project as long as the entire city was included. Not just particular buildings or districts. And exerting control over the entire city, rockefeller gave himself complete power, at least initially, to articulate williamsburgs new tourist identity. Rockefeller decided to focus on the colonial era as the height of the citys influence and use a physical space as what one newspaper called a shrine where the great events of Early American History and the lives of the many men who made it may be visualized in their proper setting. With rockefellers 79 million investment, modern williamsburg became Colonial Williamsburg. And by the end of the initial era of restoration rockefeller had demolished or moved 720 buildings and reconstructed or restored hundreds of others to achieve a single colonial visual narrative throughout the town. Rockefellers unprecedented purchase and his power over the physical and historic landscape of williamsburg prompted one shocked resident to declare, my god, theyve sold the town. Its a really cute poem they wrote. Williamsburg is of course a unique example of Historic Preservation in public memory, but the deliberate way in which rockefeller approached the task is instructive as we seek to understand the more complicated negotiations around identity making elsewhere. In salem, there is no unified visual narrative. The citys first period history exists alongside impressive structures from its time as a wealthy port city, massive warehouses from when it was an industrial powerhouse, and the homes and businesses of people from the modern era. The choice of which aspects of the citys history to emphasize has been at the heart of the conversations about salems identity. When the local Historic Community generally resisting a disproportionate focus on the witch trials in favor of a more balanced narrative. Historian steven analysis of salem tour guide indicate some of the effects of these competing visions of salems past. As rockefeller was restoring Colonial Williamsburg, salem was preparing guides to accompany its sen ten competing guide books demonstrate the constituencies vying for the power to determine the citys identity. The guide book directed at Salem Residents plays on a more broadly defined heritage and downplayed the witch trials. It said, we are citizens of a city which has a proud history and we should consider it a privilege to explain our many historical points of interests to those visiting us. A competing guide book aimed at the tourist population focused on, quote, reliable firms with which the tourists can trade and had a deliberate focus on the witch trials. More recently the 2005 unveiling of a statue of Samantha Stevens from bewitched ignited arguments about salems identity in a new form. Im going past donnas 1920 cutoff date here. Statue too. I know. Yes. Well, then mayor stanley saw the statue as a little bit of fun, portions of the larger Salem Community objected to it. Salem Historic District commissioner john carr gave the best quote, he said its like tv land going to auschwitz and proposing to klink. As historian robert weir reminds us, those who objected to the samantha statue, which included a large part of the local community, saw it as a trivialization of the witch trials. Others such as the mayor saw it as a tribute to a different part of salems history, the very modern association of the city as a Tourist Destination for kitschy halloween fun. Even today the destination, one of the things flashing there, reflects the conflict over the citys identity. It offers a stylized image that can be interpreted as a sailboat or a witch hat depending on your inclination. Of course, salem as a fun halloween destination and salem as witch city are related aspects of the citys identity. Several historians have argued that the modern association of salem with halloween can be attributed, in part at least to the popularity of the bewitched episodes steve referred to earlier. Alongside other First Encounter<\/a> in the realm was i think was backing into each other on a halloween in salem. We were both madly taking pictures and realized we had been doing the same things for years. As scholars documenting the amazing phenomenon that is salem and halloween. It maybe as close to mardi gras as you can get in the north. I highly recommend it. From both the amazing landscape. Next to steve, is bethany jay an associate professor of history at salem state. Shes one of our public historians and experts in educational history. She has also spent a lot of work and local history in looking in salem and its rich past. Her shes a little bit out of time here. Shes an expert on civil wars and slavery. Shes really a renowned author and scholar. Who is really one of the leading experts on the teaching and interpretation of museums on slavery. So we really sort of asked her to put her thinking cap on about another sort of troubled part of the past. But how we sort of interpret the salem witch trials. Next in line is our Department Chair<\/a> donna seager. Who you have met before. Shes really the heart and soul behind todays event. And in many ways everything having to do with salem and its rich history. In addition to being an expert on early modern history. She regularly teaches course on the european witchhunts. And has an amazing blog called streets of salem. Where she regularly blogs about all things having to do with salem history. And in fact i said she could read her blog entries this afternoon with the Amazing Things<\/a> shes had on witch city. Last but not least, is my good friend marilynne roach. Who is author on numerous books and articles on the history of the salem witch trials. Most recently six women of salem. Im hoping a six men of salem is coming. Im working on it. Also too, perhaps more important of her work. Her day by day chronicle of salem a community under siege is one of the most important books on the witch trials. I could not have written my book without that and also the records of the witchhunt. I honestly think there are a lot of us who know a lot about salem. But i really think marilynne knows the most and cares the most. Were honored to have her today. Im proud to call her a colleague. So also too she knows wrote the biography over 1,300 i think for the records of the salem witchhunt. She knows these people very well. So without further adieu well turn over the panel. Maybe start with steve. Do you want to lead off and give us some of your thoughts. And well go down the line and open to the audience. Id like to give you background on salem as a tourist city in the beginnings of witchcraft celebration of memorials in salem. And thats i think im over lapping with donna a little bit. She can correct me in a few minutes. So tourism began in the colonial era. New port the first great city. Followed by boston. Most didnt begin until 1830 and 1840. Coincides with the railroads and industrialization. Salem tourism lagged. We were not a Tourist Destination<\/a>. If we wanted to we went to the beach and the linn. It seems that 1879 theres a nonkeg steam railway. And which was in salem. Theres also a horse drawn trolly that went down es ses street and to the willows. The willows is where salems tourism begins. There was the gazebo down there. The methodist summer camp changed over to be second homeownership. The wealthiest salem live there. Especially people from lowell came there. Salem became a small, second tier tourism destination. In the 1880s. Its not lost that this was the home of the witchcraft hysteria in 1692. It was always part of our history. Apparently in the 1880s, both the witch house and the old goal the basement remained. It was on federal street. Now since gone. Both private residences. And you could arrange to visit both places. And that was perhaps the beginning. The turning point i think for understanding witchcraft in salem was the by centennial in 1892. At that time, there were celebrations of salem more than the witchcraft. So in salem, in 1892 i have it written down here, the city had two lectures. Celebrating the date, one was on columbus and his deed. And the other was on the park act. It was up to the Essex Institute<\/a> to hold the first great symposium on the witchcraft trials. And the lecture by harvard professor Barrette Wendell<\/a> was were the salem witches guiltless. Who knew. So professor was a psychologist. And he was applying the latest psychology theory of hypnosis, mediums, to the accused. And at the end of the day, the answer was hypnotic excess. So tad can comment on that later. So 1892, salem witchcraft was on the table. The institute was celebrating it. Or at least questioning it, having academic discussions about it. But at the same time, on the other hand, the people were starting to come to salem to be tourists. Tourism was growing in american. Growing in new england. And there was a market. And salem was not shy. Probably the prime mover was daniel low. Whose store is now rockefeller on washington street. And mr. Low probably all seen the witch spoons. On screen here, actually. Theyll come through. He was a great jeweler. And he made not only witch spoons but made porcelain and jewelry that celebrated lexington, concord. And saw this as a tremendous opportunity. And he suggested that salem become the witch city. And his proposal was accepted. And by 1892, salem was officially the witch city. And in this memorabilia behind us, at that time, all kinds of kish was popular. At tourism destinations and we fit right into the national pattern. We had our distinguishing branding. Thats what it was. Where the witches. And we became the witch city. And so we had mr. Lows jewelry. The porcelain. The postcards, other unique things youd like to buy. Like scissors, and thimbles. Tshirts werent that big then. Other than that we were right there. So we became the witch city. It was not on the high school or on the police cars. I believe until 1930s. So there was a gap there. But the identity i think the branding and people became canners and beverly became panthers. And falcons. The whole thing has to do with the second tier of the industrial revolution. Of a vast array of new products into the mass marketing. And we just fit into that. That was our niche. In terms of salem, and its promotion, beyond the willows early 20th century. 1908 buys a house, spends three years refurbishing and charges a quarter a person to tour the house of gable. The money the profit she makes is reinvested in the settlement house and her activity to immigrants to salem. Is worth noting that the house was right on the trolly track line. And so youre uniting the center of the city, and the willows. Gables. And that becomes the core of salem as a tourism destination. The only thing to add is shortly there after, you have hawthorn becoming a major figure in salem tourism. The development of the hawthorn hotel, boulevard, statue. 1925. And so youve got what are now thought of as two of the four major components of the salem tourist industry. The first being witchcraft. The second being hawthorn. The third being the maritime tradition. Which was always present historically. And in those days probably part of the what is now the museum. Where they were more of a regionally focussed institution. Am i saying this correctly . Theres nodding. Thats a good sign. The last one is architecture. We have a tremendous fan of architecture. If theres one aspect of salems tourism which is not fully appreciated i think its our architectural component. Over the years, the witchcraft component is really surged ahead. And out of time. But i would like to end with the idea that i think that the reason why witchcraft is so dominant in salem tourism, is because of the issues that it raises. The subject matter itself. The human tragedy. And the compelling nature of the whole event. And secondarily, is the fact that theres such a tie between our Popular Culture<\/a> and the witchcraft trials. And that in Popular Culture<\/a> it always refreshes the general publics interest. And so theres a tremendous tie between the two. Where were never allowed to let the witchcraft trials slip totally into history. Because its always brought back to our attention. Through a variety of authors, tv shows, plays. So with that, id like to pass the baton. Thank you. As tad mentioned im ra little far afield here. As a 19th century historian. As steve has said, thinking about the history of salem as a Tourist Destination<\/a>. Those of us who spend a lot of time in salem are reminded daily about the citys status as a Tourist Destination<\/a>. Were reminded when we hit the brakes as a distracted visitor walks into the street to take a picture. As we drive home on a random wednesday in august and count numerous people in full costume. We find ourself at the National Park<\/a> service watching boats. We walk down the street surrounded by maintained examples of colonial and federal architecture. There are without a doubt many reasons to spend time in salem. Kate fox the executive director of destination salem the main Tourism Marketing<\/a> arm has stated that about 1 million visitors come to salem each year. About 500,000 of the visitors come during october alone. Ic those statistics are still relevant. In 2014 a salem News Reporter<\/a> asked a question that is occupied salem for more than a century. Whats drawing the most visitors. And salems community offered varying responses in answer to the question. Reflecting the tensions i think are at the heart. Bif, author and owner of the popular witch museum contended the witch trials were the most important aspects of salems modern tourism. Citing the fact that 300,000 people visit the witch museum annually. He stated were still the biggest draw in town. Other members of the community thought differently. Jay finny chief marketing officer which has emerged as a major regional Cultural Resource<\/a> argued i dont think witch related is the main engine. There are too many other things going well for salem. Kate foxs response captured the complex relationship between the witch trials and status as a Tourist Destination<\/a>. She said, what were finding from the research is people will come for the witch trial history and get here and say i had no idea there was a National Park<\/a> site or didnt know the pen was here. Theyll leave with a fuller experience than they expected to get. Saying i have to come back. The tensions that are revealed by the varied answers to what may seem like a simple question are not new. Several colleagues considered the history of salem as witch city. And will uncover the way the community has repelled by the incomplete and perhaps exploited focus on the trial and tourism. But attracted as a unique feature that kept the city nationally relevant long past its economic and culture hay day. What i hope to do today is shift the gaze from salem to consider the city as larger conversations about memory, identity and tourism. The first of these conversations revolves around community identity. Historian has examined the connections between identity and public historical memory. Which he defines a body of beliefs and idea about the past, that help the public or society understand both its past, present and its future. End quote. Assigning meaning to a place is never whether its an individual Historic Site<\/a>, a district or entire community. Is by no means an organic act. It requires specific and often coordinated acts of remembering and forgetting to create a unified narrative. This process can create tension between varying constituencies. The history of Colonial Williamsburg<\/a> offers a useful parallel. Much like salem, williamsburg was a colonial power house who is influence and economy waned by the 20th century. In the 1920s a local minister decided that the city could capitalize on its historical legacy to preserve the town and revitalize the economy. He approached several investors. Eventually catching the interest of John Rockefeller<\/a> jr. Who agreed to finance the project as long as the entire city was included. Not just particular buildings or districts. And exerting control over the entire city, rockefeller gave himself complete power, at least initially, to articulate williamsburgs new tourist identity. Rockefeller decided to focus on the colonial era as the height of the citys influence and use a physical space as what one newspaper called a shrine where the great events of Early American History<\/a> and the lives of the many men who made it may be visualized in their proper setting. With rockefellers 79 million investment, modern williamsburg became Colonial Williamsburg<\/a>. And by the end of the initial era of restoration rockefeller had demolished or moved 720 buildings and reconstructed or restored hundreds of others to achieve a single colonial visual narrative throughout the town. Rockefellers unprecedented purchase and his power over the physical and historic landscape of williamsburg prompted one shocked resident to declare, my god, theyve sold the town. Its a really cute poem they wrote. Williamsburg is of course a unique example of Historic Preservation<\/a> in public memory, but the deliberate way in which rockefeller approached the task is instructive as we seek to understand the more complicated negotiations around identity making elsewhere. In salem, there is no unified visual narrative. The citys first period history exists alongside impressive structures from its time as a wealthy port city, massive warehouses from when it was an industrial powerhouse, and the homes and businesses of people from the modern era. The choice of which aspects of the citys history to emphasize has been at the heart of the conversations about salems identity. When the local Historic Community<\/a> generally resisting a disproportionate focus on the witch trials in favor of a more balanced narrative. Historian steven analysis of salem tour guide indicate some of the effects of these competing visions of salems past. As rockefeller was restoring Colonial Williamsburg<\/a>, salem was preparing guides to accompany its sen ten competing guide books demonstrate the constituencies vying for the power to determine the citys identity. The guide book directed at Salem Residents<\/a> plays on a more broadly defined heritage and downplayed the witch trials. It said, we are citizens of a city which has a proud history and we should consider it a privilege to explain our many historical points of interests to those visiting us. A competing guide book aimed at the tourist population focused on, quote, reliable firms with which the tourists can trade and had a deliberate focus on the witch trials. More recently the 2005 unveiling of a statue of Samantha Stevens<\/a> from bewitched ignited arguments about salems identity in a new form. Im going past donnas 1920 cutoff date here. Statue too. I know. Yes. Well, then mayor stanley saw the statue as a little bit of fun, portions of the larger Salem Community<\/a> objected to it. Salem Historic District<\/a> commissioner john carr gave the best quote, he said its like tv land going to auschwitz and proposing to klink. As historian robert weir reminds us, those who objected to the samantha statue, which included a large part of the local community, saw it as a trivialization of the witch trials. Others such as the mayor saw it as a tribute to a different part of salems history, the very modern association of the city as a Tourist Destination<\/a> for kitschy halloween fun. Even today the destination, one of the things flashing there, reflects the conflict over the citys identity. It offers a stylized image that can be interpreted as a sailboat or a witch hat depending on your inclination. Of course, salem as a fun halloween destination and salem as witch city are related aspects of the citys identity. Several historians have argued that the modern association of salem with halloween can be attributed, in part at least to the popularity of the bewitched episodes steve referred to earlier. Alongside other Popular Culture<\/a> developments of the mid 20th century, bewitched reminded the larger American Public<\/a> about the association of salem with witchcraft. Of course, the bewitched producers chose salem as site for the episodes because of the Historic Association<\/a> of salem and the witch trials. As well sort of be covered and has already been covered today, the trials of 1692 were a tragedy where innocent people suffered and died. So this brings us to our second conversation. How do we foster a vibrant memory of tragedy and tourist sites . Difficult, unwelcome or unexpected narratives at Historic Sites<\/a> can be an uncomfortable fit for bus loads of tourists expecting to enjoy a beautiful landscape or a historic home. Museums and Historic Sites<\/a> that seek to tell these stories often feel pressured to do so in a way that is still touristfriendly. This difficulty is further complicated by the by studies of tourism that show that telling complicated historical narratives without corresponding artifacts often fails to have an impact on visitors. So museums that are sites of slavery, for example, struggle with this fact every day because of the lack of extant slave material culture. One visitor to Colonial Williamsburg<\/a> remarked it was after an africanamerican walking tour, it was traelreall walking lecture. What we were seeing on this tour that had any particular relevance to the story we were being told about slavery. In the case of plantation museums the lack of material culture means that the slavery doesnt subvert the romantic vision of the old south that is more visible in the site itself. Of course, some sites of slavery also lack basic information about this enslaved population, and this of course is not the case with the salem witch trials which as marilynne knows are welldocumented. What salem lacks is not an historic understanding of the witch trials but a single site dedicated to telling the history using authentic artifacts from the past. I believe its the pbs museum that holds artifacts but they are not on display. Many of the sites associated with the witch trial were in what is now danvers or have been demolished. Aside from tad bakers discovery of the execution site at proctors ledge wait a second. I didnt discover it. We as a team confirmed what pearly did. Well, i only had ten minutes. Im sorry. One spot truly associated with the trials is the home of judge corwin, though even that building has been substantially altered from its 17th century form. As robert weir notes, one couldnt actually see much in salem other than gazing upon markers, noting where certain buildings once stood. The lack of extant structures or single museum responsible for telling the history of the witch trials has left the telling that important narrative to a diverse set of sites that range from attractions to more serious attempts at historical inquiry. Still, public history studies indicate in the absence of material culture connections, the actual events of 1692 have likely been overwhelmed by other parts of the tourist landscape. In this way, the public history of the witch trials is similar to the public history of slavery. Just as slavery has been subordinated to a more marketable and visible gone with the wind narrative in plantation museums across the american south, the history of 1692 has become subordinated to a more general celebration of the macabre in salem. Sites such as Draculas Castle<\/a> the salem wax museum, count orlocks nightmare gallery, associated with sites to have 1692. What we find is visitors can come to salem and leave learning little about the actual witch trials history. This juxtaposition between revelry and tragedy in salem brings us to our last conversation. The debate about how to reconcile sites of tragedy as Tourist Destination<\/a>s. Recently this debate has raged about the appropriateness of tourists taking selfies at auschwitz. Discussing the string of photographs on social media of tourists in the barracks, in front of the gas chambers or standing under the famed work makes you free sign over the entrance to the count, an author argued auschwitz is no longer an authentic site. The savagery, the millions of people died, theres no way for it to grip you when youre in the presence of sunbathing tourists thinking about where to have lunch. They hold hands to take in anticipation all the highlights. Salem is different than auschwitz and im not arguing theyre the same, but underlying many peoples discomfort with salem as witch city does some disservice to the citys history as a site of tragedy. This discomfort was nicely ar c articulated by none other than donna segger, who reflected on the juxtaposition between halloween revelry and old Burning Point<\/a> and salem witch trial memorial, an understated memorial to the victims of the trials. As she wrote on her blog, desecration, the old point on charter street and the adjacent witch trial memorial were completely desecrated yesterday. Theres no word more appropriate. Desecration. The cemetery is simply fodder for tour groups and photo shoots and the memorial was reduced to a place people could sit down and eat their fried dough or text. Drunken clowns, literally, sat on the stones we can all picture it, right . Sat on the stones representing the victims of 1692 while smiling tourists took their pictures. Salem is a unique city and both the locals and tourists are grateful for its many eccentricities. As a modern tourist site it has a lot in common with other destinations and its history can inform larger conversations about the creation of public memory and the role of historic tragedy at tourist sites, both how to discuss tragedy effectively and engender respect for the past while fostering an attractive atmosphere for tourists. These are not easy questions and all indications are that salem will continue to grapple with them for years to come. Im thankful for opportunities like this one where the community can come together to think about the issues together. Thank you. [ applause ] now that youve been quoted, donna my apologies to dr. Seger for multiple things. [ laughter ] good response to your Department Chair<\/a>. Thank you, both dr. Matchak and dr. Jay, set me up very well, very well. I see now how im going to fit in here, but the first thing that i really want to say that i really dont have an academic perspective on this. I dont see myself as an academic here. I certainly am not in this storied company. I kind of foisted myself on this panel because i live in salem and i love salem. So it is really very personal for me. It is very, very hard for me to talk about this topic in a detached, academic manner. I really love salem. The witch city stuff just drives me crazy. It is very, very personal for me. The only way that i can sort of deal with it is to go back to the period where dr. Matchak was, the period from 1890s, up to 1910, up to maybe 1920, and i dont see it quite as such a freight train, to use your reference there, that you do. I guess maybe i just want to see that there was a moment that it could have gone another way in the 1890s period, in the 1910s period. I see it as a battle that was going on. Certainly the bicentennial was big. It was really big. It was nationally big. There were National Articles<\/a> in all of the major periodicals. There were sort of academic looks at 1892, and there was also a lot of fictional what was then called romantics look, young adult books, some of them that i put in there. Oh, did we stop . Okay. So it was big. There was daniel lowe. There was an attempt to have kind kind of a studied ye old approach that was a bit more academic, and then there was a fullfledged commercial campaign, no question about it. After 1892 settled down for a bit, i was reading the guide books are great sources. I love to read the guide books in chronological order. To me it just looks like the official guide books are trying to say, we are a city of the china trade, we are a city of hawthorne, we are a city of beautiful architecture, and thats the official line and they say very little about the delusion. But that doesnt quite seem to be working and they see that the spoons and the post cards and porcelain are doing very, very well. The house of seven gables and the kind of Colonial Revival Movement<\/a> here in salem seems to be bolstering the architecture on one side, and then theres the commercial exploitation of witchcraft on the other. They seem to be you had them in sync, i see them more battling but maybe i just want to see it that way. The way my prism, my window into this period, because, again, im not an english histori im an historian, i focused a lot on the photographer and writer Frank Cousins<\/a>, who was an amazing photographer. He was a mcintyre scholar. He was also an entrepreneur. So he was somebody that represents both sides of this. He was a businessman and he was also an academic scholar and a photographer and very much a preservationist. I think he was salems first prominent preservationist. In his work i can see both sides, you know, the scholarly looks at Samuel Mcintyre<\/a> and the architecture, the work that he does documenting every house in salem. Beautiful photographs, beautiful street views, all of which are in the Peabody Essex<\/a> museum and not digitized. Thats a theme here. But at the same time so im totally into Frank Cousins<\/a>. Im like, he is it for me. He is the vanguard. Hes going to stop witch city because im convinced it is going to stop at some point in this period, this 1890, 1910 period. This is when hes most active. Then i look at the archive of his shop, and whats there . Witch city wares. Hes playing it both sides. Hes playing it both sides. Hes standing up for the architectural, colonial, beautiful city that we all well, some of us want salem to be, but at the same time hes making money off of the witch trials. So if he couldnt do it, i dont know if its possible after that point. Again, i really it seems to escalate. In addition to foisting myself on this panel, i also kind of made an early date i really didnt want to go after 1960. I understand you really want to get after 1960. I really dont want to get after 1920 because i think things get just so much more intensely commercial after that point, but i think there was a window in time where maybe we could have gone another route. Im kind of depressed because i think the train is out of the station now, but i wistfully look back to that previous time and focus my attentions on preservation. Im glad im not a salem historian so i dont have to deal with these things every day. Thank you, donna. Marilynne. Well, salem is finally going to get a memorial, and it has been a Long Time Coming<\/a> which is actually a good thing. In 1892 the bicentennial of the salem witch trials, a reporter was sent to salem from some National Paper<\/a> to interview people about this topic. He interviewed a cabdriver at the railroad station. The cabby told him that when passengers had time between trains there were two things they wanted to see, where Nathaniel Hawthorne<\/a> was born and where the witches were hanged. For the latter, they were probably taken to the wrong location. The guide book sent tourists to the top of gallows hill and street atlases in 1864 depicted a small park on what turns out to be private land at the corner of grafton street as witch square, where they were hanged. An author declared in 1860 salem witch craft that the summit was the site because of the tradition uniform and continuous, but he did not site his sources. In fact, there was another continuing tradition, continuing in living memory today even among some of the longesttermed residents of proctor street, that the lower ledges of gallows hill was the actual spot, but uplands theory prevailed. In 1892 again, the historicallyminded community proposed building a monument to those executed and collected enough funds to produce an architect rendering of a threestory, 30foot high solid granite block Lookout Tower<\/a> which would have offered a fine view of the harbor and the town while completely obliterating the spot. In 1898 the city of salem set aside 600 to purchase witch square because it was private land, but this project evaporated and the 600 were used to gravel the pads in salem common. Although witch square was still widely believed to be the correct site of the hangings, the lands owners divided it and sold it and the place is now occupied by several houses. Meanwhile, sydney pearly, one of my heroes who is a lawyer and antiquarian and he must have red every deed and will in the essex county courthouse, he is researching a series of articles on Land Ownership<\/a> up to the time of about 1700, and theres 35 articles on salem alone plus the adjacent towns that used to be salem. Article number seven appeared in 1901 and clearly labeled in print and on his map the lower ledges, what we now call proctors ledges, the site of the executions. What i only recently learned is that his article caused a furor. Perley dared to contradict the late great charles w. Upland. Feelings were still simmering a decade later in 1911 when the Essex Institute<\/a> announced a walking tour that would on begin at the lower ledges where perley would speak about why he felt that was the site of the hangings. The salem evening news presented an article about this which the newspaper titled actual site of witch hangings in one issue, and the following day printed an irate letter to the editor from one William Nevins<\/a> who had written on the trials. He was shocked, shocked that the Essex Institute<\/a> of all places would give give any credence to perleys theories, which were no better than the yellow journalism plaguing newspapers of today. This was yellow antiquarianism, not to be confused with the working conclusions of real antiquaries, im quoting here, like charles w. Upland. There are plenty of reasons to conclude the summit was the actual site but nevins didnt have the time right now to tell you what they were. Nevertheless, 200 people attended perleys talk, and the walk was a success. A decade later in 1921, perley published a longer article specifying his reasons why he believed it was the site. He had interviews from local elders who believed it was the site from people in their youths. Written anecdotes from generations closer to the trials but still not eyewitnesses, including the future president john adams. The land descriptions in deeds and wills of the area which matched the oral traditions, and most especially the logic of the lower location as being more visible and of easier access than the summit for a public execution, which after all has to be public. In 1936 the city of salem purchased two adjacent lots on the lower ledges that were available for 500 apiece and designated this whole as witch memorial land. A rather unfortunate title, and it was to be a public park forever. Forever is right in the deeds. However, the site was not marked. It was the depression, after all. Since then anonymous parties have dumped trash on it. The site, the neighborhood and a great swath of salem were nearly wiped out by a proposed extension of i95 in the 1960s, the same decade when historic salem incorporated, proposed marking the place of execution. Another project faded when no one involved could agree on the exact location. In 1976 during the nations bicentennial of the revolution when local history got attention generally, robert booth rediscovered a crevice on the ledges that perley had identified as the temporary grave where some of the victims were kept, thrown, and which perley clearly described having been cleared out so there was no earth or artifacts in there. This prompted discussion of archaeological exploration and memorial but nothing came of that either. The contractor who owned the unbuilt land abutting the city land offered to sell it to Historical Organization<\/a> that could come up with the money or cut it up for house lots. Neither happened. In the 1980s the city nearly sold the park as surplus land to a highrise developer until vigilant neighbors reminded them what the word forever meant. Thank goodness for them. In 1997, i found a clue in the trial papers that perley had not mentioned. The notes for witch suspect rebecca ames hearing for august 1692, being brought to salem from foxford, she had to have traveled on present boston street and is left in the house below the hill while her guards pause to watch the excitement because a hanging was taking place. From where she was, she told the magistrates hours later she could see folks at the execution. By itself it it tells us nothing. But perley had already done massive research, and he knew where the houses were on this stretch of road. There werent too many of them, so she had to have been looking at proctors ledge, not the summit from where she was. More recently, working with perleys and the above information, benjamin ray and chris jist of the university of virginia applied a computerized view shed analysis program, which certainly didnt exist in 1997, to the areas topography and determined that proctors ledge is the thing you can see, not the summit. Now the city is landscaping the park land on proctors ledge, the correct site, and will tend it to better preserve the place in order to honor the bravery and suffering of the 19 people put to death there. The hope is that the location will be treated respectfully by visitors who will likewise respect the privacy and peace of the sites living neighbors. So theres been a long tradition about that spot that connects us tall to the all too real tragedies that happened there, traditions that have at least been proven by science and archival research, and thats not yellow antiquarianism. Thank you. Thank you. [ applause ] well, as moderator i get a chance to make a few thoughts on your wonderful ideas and maybe ask a question or two and then i will turn it over to you folks too, because im sure you want to join in this very interesting conversation. You know, it is interesting, bethany, you talk about that one site, that one destination. As a matter of fact this semester when i was teaching my museums studies class their final exam essay question was, okay, youre the new director of a brandnew museum in salem, which is going to be built somewhere near proctors ledge and you have the chance to tell the salem witch trial story. What would you do . It was very interesting to see some of their answers. Basically i guess thats kind of in some ways the dream a lot of us have, right . Because we have the Peabody Essex<\/a> museum in town which is an amazing worldclass library we are lucky to have, but it has an interesting history, right . Because it is this merger of the old Peabody Museum<\/a> of Natural History<\/a> and the Essex Institute<\/a>, the historical institution. When they merged, history very quickly left their mission and they became an art museum. Art museums are wonderful places. One of my daughters actually in graduate school for art history so i dont dis the field. But in some ways it can be very different than history in that they the arent all that interested in the interpretation that historians might have, right . So what we see right here is the Peabody Essex<\/a> museum has the well, not the ownership, but they have through agreement with the state of massachusetts, they hold for the state all of the salem witch trial documents, right . Over 900 of them i guess it is. They also have all of these amazing objects that are associated with the people from salem in the 17th century including those from the witch trials, including the portrait of judge samuel sewell. So in some ways if they were a history museum, they would have the ability to tell that story and tell it with authority, right . To tell it right. But theyre not. With dignity. With dignity. But theyre not, so in that sense, the organization that has the best chance to do it has sort of abdicated their moral authority and the moral high ground and the scholarly high ground to do it right. Im not sure how we what we do with something about that. I thought about this a bit as i was in england recently, and i always drag my wife to all of the different museums and tourist attractions. I went to the viking center in york which is this really interesting it is a controversial place because it is this really good, Amazing Museum<\/a> in york, england of viking archeological excavations but you go through part of it through a reconstructed Viking Village<\/a> in a cart ride underground. It is part of like anamatronic vikings and so on. It is a little different. Some people are sort of poohpoohing that approach. I am wondering would it be possible in salem to do Something Like<\/a> this, to make a hightech, modern sort of especially virtual presentation of salem in 1692 and the witch trials tastefully, with proper moral authority, mixed in with objects from 1692 and replicas, right . I mean it is probably it is a dream if anyone is out there who wants who has millions of dollars to start such an institution, please come talk to us. I dont think it will happen, but i would like to think we need Something Like<\/a> that to try to change the narrative. What is interesting to me, too, is steve and don talking about late 19th, early 209 searth cen where it seems like, you know, for that brief and shining moment that was camelot, maybe . There was a chance even though we were witch city, we werent going to be witch city, that maybe it didnt have to be that way. There seems to be something there is and i want to talk about it. There is an ebb and flow even to this day that salem has very strong and mixed feelings about what parts of our heritage we want to portray, to whom, for what reasons, right . And even in the creation of gallows hill theres this dichotomy, the ebb and flow. We want to build a memorial, no, we dont. Even if it is in the wrong place, we dont want to do this. I was particularly i want to mention one thing. You mentioned about the 1936 when the parcel is finally purchased, and thats really interesting. I was actually giving a talk on proctors ledge and emily murphy, who is a friend of many of ours, the historian for the park service in salem, a talented historian and curator. She said, wait a second, i think i know what might have happened because in 1936 the city of salem, she pointed out, was buying of tracts of land in the city for the creation two years later im not quite sure how they knew this, what was in the works with our congressman in washington, but they were planning to create Salem National<\/a> maritime Historic Site<\/a>, which, of course, is the first Historic Site<\/a> in the National Park<\/a> service. If you dont know, salem is filled with many, many firsts. So she kind of she threw out the question, i dont know, maybe we could research this, was proctors ledge purchased by the city as a part of that effort. And for whatever reason, a couple years later, maybe they said, wait a second, were the national maritime. Maybe the National Park<\/a>s service said we dont want to do witch craft either. This is nowhere near the waterfront, city of salem, you can keep that parcel. I dont know if that happened, but it is an interesting sort of twist to itself. So i think it is like emily said, we would have to see if we could sort of explore. Beth, maybe it is a good internship for one of our students, to research that. The witch trials would have been a departure, right, from what the park service was trying to accomplish with the initial Historic Sites<\/a>, which was really sort of the great march of american civilization. Right, the dead white man history in many ways and this is not exactly the shining moment, so maybe we dont want to talk about witches. I guess thats kind of the question that i will throw out to you folks, is this whole issue of witch city. I guess to me to some degree of it seems to me it is our own sort of selfimposed Scarlet Letter<\/a> we have managed to give ourselves, and that we may not ever have built that memorial in 1892 or, you know, even in the early to mid 20th century or may not have built it at proctors ledge until now. But to some degree, to what degree theres the sort of moniker of witch city, is that our ownership of this or not. I guess if thats the case then, donna maybe is that necessarily a bad thing . I guess my thought, is it are we witch city forever . Is that necessarily a horrible thing . What do you think . Donna, i know you are just it is hard for me because the cameras. You know, those of you who know me, i would have a lot to say on this, and i dont really want to say it. [ laughter ] but i will im sorry. I didnt mean to put you on the spot, but now is your opportunity. I will say that i like that idea of a selfimposed Scarlet Letter<\/a>. I think thats how it started but i dont think it is that way anymore. I think it has become more than that. I think that largely what happened, and this is what makes me sad, but outsiders more than insiders. I think weve kind of lost a lot of our ability of selfidentity at this point. I mean the Salem Witch Museum<\/a> is not owned by somebody that lives in salem. Some of the largest businesses that are witch related in salem are not owned by people that live in salem. Tv land put samantha there, you know. Tv. Donna tried to get them to remove it without much luck. So i think we have given up it seems to me. It is obviously economic. I mean steve is exactly right. I would really like to see the numbers. If youre critical of any of this, everyone says, but it brings jobs to salem, it brings jobs to salem, it is such an important part of our economy. Well, because of the cost of terrorism these days, i dont know if you have been here on halloween but theres so much security, it is also very expensive enterprise for the city now. I would really like to see the economics on it frankly. I think everyone just assumes it is an economic engine for us. Im not sure thats true. It might be true, but i would argue that it is benefitting a lot of people outside salem as well as people maybe more than people inside salem. So it is not a good thing. Well you would like to get rid of witch city. Bethany . Theres been so much scholarship about the witch trials, you know, tad and others, you know, he talked about. I feel like that conversation exists and then salem exists, but the two dont meet for the average person. Right. Thats i think i mean thats where i think a lot of the discomfort is, is that people kind of come and they spend however much time here and they leave probably not knowing a lot more about 1692, maybe leaving with the impression that the accused in 1692 were witches. Yep. Depending on where they visit. So i think thats part of the i mean the American Public<\/a> is very interested in the witch trials, theres a lot of scholarly attention to the witch trials, but it is not happening in salem and Historic Sites<\/a> unless theyre coming to see you give a talk. They come here and get fried dough and vampire fangs and go home, right . Yeah. Thats the question. It is interesting you point it out. Salem is this place that people want to come to. It is a destination and it is associated with the witch trials, but as kate fox would tell you, right, when they come here, theyre not entirely sure where theyre supposed to go. There is no sort of signal place, right . This is it. If you go to boston, youre going to freedom trail, to faneuil hall. Here youre here in salem, now what. Theres an opportunity to get people to get that story an get it well, but im not sure first im not sure how we do that, right. More history and less halloween. More history and less halloween. Thats the other part thats almost impossible. Frankly, i will admit i think most of us, i have given up. I think some ways maybe have you, too. I have gotten to the stage where, oh, we would love to hear you they say, we would love to hear you come talk or can you appear on tv or the radio. Great, i would be glad to do it now. No, no, we dont want you now. We want you on october 31st. All right. To what degree what i like to do, i say, okay, the first thing im going to do is you realize theres no connection. There isnt. Is there anything we can do, marilynne . Well, i dont know. You can try to do the history, try to get their attention with it and hope that they at least remember some of that before they get their vampire fangs and fried dough. I think a lot of steve, you might know better than i do. If im remembering francis hills chapter, the museum stopped displaying the witch artifacts, the witch trials artifacts around the time that haunted happenings was growing, the 1970s, 1980s. So it was sort of a conscious a little into the 1990s, it came back a little bit. A room over on the side. With documents behind the curtain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That feels like kind of an abdication of the story to the nonhistorical community. Right. Since they absorbed the history, the Essex Institute<\/a> which was a history museum, shouldnt it be part of their mission to tell the actual facts . This is a rhetorical question. [ applause ] okay. People agree. Im not alone in this. Steve, what do you make of this . I agree completely with marilynne. I agree completely. I think the opportunity is really for the p. M. To step and if they have the resources they do have and they have houses and buildings they arent using and they are refurbishing the ei, the old building, it is in a way for them to say, were going to take the leadership position and electrical be one a there will be one attraction, just one, which will be an authentic focus on the witchcraft trial using authentic materials, and that could stand in relationship to all of the other venues that are open. At least there will be someplace for a historical, academic, thoughtful exhibition. Im sure that it will be profitable. Im sure that many people would want to see it as they do other sites. It doesnt have to be in the new building. It doesnt have to be in the gallery next to the moving art museums. There should be enough space in town for them to have an exhibition, a destination which would greatly add to salems veracity when it comes to promoting or studying or offering halloween and witchcraft at the same time. I mean that balance. To donnas point, i think i mean tourists were originally pleasure seekers and they sought pleasure, and thats not necessarily academic. So i think the whole thrust of tourists most of the time will be for pleasurable activities, including vampire fangs and fried dough. So i think that thats going to be undeniable and thats going to be the primary thrust of salems tourism. I just would really hope there would be some part of it which becomes far more authentic. And i think to get back to your point, when you were talking about the boosterism in the late 19th century and the creation of witch city and tanner city and shoe city, you know, and where i grew up in Worcester County<\/a> you had a gardner big chair city, right . Or toy town or the neighboring town, pioneer plastic city which now, you know, and if you go to the local tourist shop they have pink flamingos for sale there, because they were first made and invented by a guy in pittsburgh. Here is my point. The whole idea of witch city that was created in the 1890s was i think meant to be a point of local boosterism and pride. Maybe it has sort of gotten unduly twisted and coopted over time in most unfortunate ways. Well, we could go on talking among ourselves forever, but we have 20 minutes or so left and i know a lot of people would love to ask questions. Don, why dont you everyone would like to step to the microphone. Even though youre right there, it is right there. Oh. Im interested in steves comment that the witch city and hawthorne sort of merged. My observation without any particular evidence has been that hawthorne was introduced to sort of displace the witch city, to bring the image of salem to a higher level. Certainly after the salem fire of 1914, hawthorne boulevard was laid out, and then in the early 20s, the Hawthorne Hotel<\/a> was built. And the house of the seven gables moved the hawthorne birthplace to show that to the public, and i have occasionally seen a business that doesnt say witch city but says hawthorne. There was a hawthorne cleaners at one time, Something Like<\/a> that. My question is, is hawthorne part of witch city or is it an alternative to witch city . Great question, john. Great question. What do people think . Steve . I think it is neither. I think theyre just on separate tracks. I think you had the witch city track which weve discussed, and then you had the hawthorne track. Just say during the early mid 20th century hawthorne became part of americas literary cannon. Every high school student, right after the shakespeare reading, there was the Scarlet Letter<\/a>. It was part of american education. It was celebrated as a major author. His house, the house of seven gables, were primary landmarks. I think he was especially important in the creation of the National Park<\/a>. I think the fact that he was a surveyor of the customs, i think it is three years, three months and twelve days or something. He looked out that front window and he saw derby wharf, the original first chapter of the house of seven gables is i mean Scarlet Letter<\/a> is about the Customs House<\/a>. The manuscript was found in the safe of the Customs House<\/a>. I think that connection helped our congressional delegation make the empty Customs House<\/a> the First National<\/a> Historic Site<\/a> in the country. I mean i think it was political muscle, the depression, and hawthorne which made it all possible. I think emerton, she made house of seven gables a tourist attraction. I dont think she thought of, gee, were witch city, were going to do something opposed to it or parallel. I think they said, here is an economic opportunity. Here is a Cultural Resource<\/a> which we can develop independently of the witchcraft trials. So i think i dont see them as combining. I think salem as a Tourist Destination<\/a> becomes a basket with more than one egg in it. I think salem probably has several eggs in the basket. It has the maritime, it has the hawthorne. As i said before, the architectural is usually the fourth leg of this. So i think it is a combination of things. So although salem may always be witch city and have that earlier moniker, it will have other important places to see within it and they dont displace each other or really compete with each other. I think just exist separately of each other but happen to be in the same place. I dont think they necessarily complement each other either. Is that okay . Next question . You want to take the mike, please . Okay. Im fascinated by the proctors ledge background and also this new memorial. One of the things about the site though is it is quite a walk from the main area of salem. I was wondering, thats the hanging site but has there been any discussion of creating, say, a marker for the site of the giles corey pressing at Howard Street<\/a> which is, again, so much closer to the center of town . Marilynne, youre our giles corey expert. She will tell you it probably wasnt Howard Street<\/a>, but do you want to speak about giles . I wrote an article about this for a genealogical magazine. It is somewhere near the jail or in the jail yard because that big building i think is the whole block of it, but it is outside and people are watching it. So it is not away from the public. I mean you want to make a warning to what people arent supposed to do or this can happen to you. Where the Howard Street<\/a> Burying Ground<\/a> is was somebodys back acreage and there were a couple of stone walls. You would have to go around and get into it, somebodys backyard. There was a pasture next door, it didnt have a house on it. Presumably it was used for a cow or something, and it was owned by Thomas Proctor<\/a> who putnam you mean . Putnam, excuse me. Gosh, what a difference. [ laughter ] thank you for that. Yeah, thomas putnam, whose daughters the night before the pressing had been visited by coreys ghost to remind no, to the ghost that his victim, jacob gooddale who said, corey killed me, this is only appropriate because now hes going to die too. She said they made sure the judges knew it. Yes. So if they had to do this on public property nearby, because why go at a distance, i dont think putnam would have objected, and it was right there. Location, location, location. On whats now washington street, towards the train station. Really . Having said that well, what is court street, Church Street<\/a> . The other direction. Towards it. Behind the jail towards washington street. It is on the same side, back towards yeah, but i think the biggest question is as far as on memorials well, a plaque on the building maybe. You could i suppose. Again, were not thats a place were not sure about. It is likely. It is private property. But i think i guess there are bigger questions as to what we do at proctors ledge, and it is i go back and think isnt it too bad it isnt the 17th century or that when the city owned all of that land or that they parsed some of it out. Now what were trying to do there, it is a balancing act because the site is in the backyard of a neighborhood. There really isnt parking. There are also traffic problems there. So but having said this, what the city is doing there in addition to the memorial at proctors ledge, there is nearby parking up in gallows hill park. There will be a panel, a Historical Panel<\/a> put up in there which describes the event. Theres places to park, and so it is there are a number of these in salem already if you have seen some of them, but there will be one specifically on the whole proctors ledge and gallows hill placed there. There will be another site nearby that is frankly more accessible, you dont have to worry about being run over, where you would be able to sort of get that story as well, too. On the corner of happy and healthy will still be there. [ laughter ] one thing that this has done for me today is opened my im from new hampshire. Opened my eyes to the real dilemma that the city of salem is in. I dont think the majority of people know this, how torn it seems to be. I think the whole halloween, sorry, is inevitable. We are a culture of theme parks. I think at this point, i think your point is welltaken that there needs to be another site within the city that is dedicated to what were here for today, because people do see salem as a theme park. The other question i have is, is there a european counterpart to salem, any city in europe in this situation . There is, no. So youre the only were the witchcraft capital of the world. No, there are some that are getting there, but theyre late to the party and there just is not in my presentation we talked about, you know, the huge witch trials and van burg and i showed very sedate memorials. No, there is no equivalence of salem. And our american take on halloween, too, is very different from european celebrations. Exactly. We also have the difference that theres an active Witch Community<\/a> of people who identify themselves as witches here today. So i think thats a difference, too. Thats absolutely true. The salem story gets sort of tangled with neo paganism and the wiccan community, who refer to themselves as witches, which frankly makes things very confusing. It makes for a Rich Community<\/a> but i have to be careful what i say, there are no witches, because i will have some of my students say, wait a second, professor, what about me. Theres another question back there. This idea of a place to tell the story of the salem trials in one spot, im wondering what responsibility would salem then have to tell the stories of the lives of the victims who did not all reside in salem because and full disclosure, im from the Andover Historical<\/a> society. But im interested because youre talking about the desecration of graves and a spot where something horrific happened. I think about the places these people were taken from, taken from their homes, and accused of something they just couldnt imagine. What responsibility would there be, then, to tell those stories as well. Fascinating. I think thats where you get into we talked about this a little bit in the earlier panel, too, of the balancing act of telling a really indepth, complex, complicated history, and telling something that is manageable. You know what i mean . For your tourist population. So as historians, right, we always want to tell the whole story and, you know, ideally that information would be available, but then that would be a sort of curatorial interpretative decision of how long are people going to stay here, whats the average experience going to be. How far away are we from the fried dough . That would have to be the questions. I think part of the problem you have so many people. I felt obligated to make sure in my book that i mentioned all of the people who died by name, but beyond that theres another 150 to go and, again, actually thanks to margo burns, i used her wonderful list of accused in my apendices which got everyone in there in some way. The problem is there are so many compelling stories, and how do you how do you try to tell them all and tell them well and say, yes, there were more people accused from andover than anywhere else . I think the key is we have the basis here that we could do it. To me the stories are so compelling, and thats what people like in history, are these personal stories, and they are from people throughout the region with different background, some who were born in england, others who came from ening and others who come from other places and arrive here. But the problem is, again, it becomes sort of a occur cu curatorial choice. To me personally, i think it is our responsibility to tell their story here without a doubt, even if they were from andover. I spent three years, so i love andover, but i will say north andover, too. I will say this, what is interesting to me, i spent three years at the academy, and stacey who wrote the book on the salem witch trials was there at the same time, and i dont think either of us had any concept that andover had anything to do with the salem witch trials. To some degrees like north andovers dirty little secret. Maybe thats the nature of the business. To me part of this is the process of ownership for salem and the whole region that this is our very conflicted past. If there were a museum founded in salem or at the Peabody Essex<\/a>, at least focusing on the 20, including giles cory, would be something. More is known about some individuals than others. Sometimes youre lucky to get birth, death and marriages, if that. But if you can bring some of the people alive and have other recognized as individuals with stories, then it grabs you into history. The other way to do it is virtually. I actually codeveloped an app on the witch trials, look at different sites. In an app, can you have all the people there and look up their biography. An exhibit i cocurated in the county house museum, life in the 17th century. Weve talking boult thousan ingf people, you cant tell all of their stories, but center piece is a touch screen where you can touch on a part of the map and hear a story from somebody that lived in that community. There are ways we could do that, of giving people the options of learning some of the different stories and narratives. Again, if someone wants to write a check for a couple of Million Dollars<\/a> to get the ball rolling, talk to us afterwards, please. Back there. Im not as im saying this im not quite sure if it is a statement or a question. So it will come out. All right. Im sure youll get a response from this group. No, i think what youre saying about having a purpose to the audience, and donna was saying about the fact theyre not witches and having an audience coming away from salem knowing that, and then how you guys are saying i actually bring the personal and tell that story. Because as you were saying right at the very beginning of this whole day, how do you condense what you do into one hour, you know, onehour lecture, how do you provide an overview . Is that what your audience of salem is coming for or do they want witchcraft light . But having a person tell that story, and im just thinking back to the most emotive time i had in a museum this stayed with me, and that was actually the holocaust museum. Again, im not comparing it, right. But what i got and this was going back to when i was a teenager was you got a card and it corresponded to a living person. At each level you find out about that person, and then at the end you find out if they lived or they died. That really stuck with me because i was like, it took the message home. It really hit me. I thought with having that message that donna was saying, you know, coming back to the fact it is like are they witches and do you want people to come away from witch city going, it is not really witch city, or it is witch city for the macabre which i think is great because if you could separate the macabre from the actual story would be great because the kitsch can have the kitsch, and the people come for that, have their little witchy hats and do that, but they also come away with the right legacy. I think the personal, from my little time in salem has done, the personal shows that. Again, it is a statement and a question, i guess. Any responses . I like what you said. Definitely. Other questions . Don. Just an observation. If youre looking hang on a second. Hold onto that observation. So much for spontaneity. We have to get a microphone. Get the microphone over here for him, if you would. Get him to stand up. Theres one right here. She has a question. Oh, im sorry. Don, youre next. Im sorry. I do. I think most of us came today to see what new things we might learn that we didnt know before, and i think that it has been a most successful day in that respect. I certainly as a person who thinks of herself as a historian like the idea of having some sort of entity that would tell the true stories as much as we can document of the witch craft trials. Im a retired employee of two of the institutions mentioned, so im happy to see some of the folks that i have worked with before here today. Im wondering if there are momentum in this group to try to be advocates for this type of thing. Thats a question i will leave you all with. Thank you, irene, for that one. Yeah, thank you. Any responses . Thats too hard. Im looking at donna. Irene, it is kind of an uphill battle, right . I think i think if we again to me i come back to i really hope that the confirmation of proctors ledge is a way to sort of trigger that broader kind of discussion where maybe we can get Community Support<\/a> for those kind of ideas. No for or five of us or a room full of us will be able to do this . It will take a groundswell from the community to do it. This is a start. I would hope so. Now, don, i apologize. If one is looking for a model for biographies, i suggest the in petersburg, virginia the National Museum<\/a> of the Civil War Soldier<\/a> where individual biographies are presented. That could get at the whole witchcraft episode, including those who died but also others who were accused and also the accusers, and even other people in the area who were the judges. But those individual biographies are very effective there. Don, how do they do it there . How do they present those . Is it multimedia, through their objects . My recollection and it has been some years since ive been there is that the visitor selects a profile to follow in there, but it is not multimedia. It is a little older than multimedia. Some of us are a little older than multimedia. Yes, but it is effective. Now they may be doing it differently, but it gets at the individuals. I think the point made that finding the lives of these individuals can get us much closer to the whole story. Absolutely. We have time for maybe one or two more questions if people have them. Charlie, and then over here. Have them. Charlie and over here. Your reference to the Biking Center<\/a> called to mind, we have visited. It just reopened. Its better, they tell me. It might be an interesting model because they recognize people coming there are coming for different purposes with different backgrounds. The ground floor, if you will, is a typical walkthrough exhibit of maps of artifacts, documents. Then, as you mentioned, in the basement at what was the historic level is, for lack of a better name, a disney like ride along an anmitronic recreation of the Viking Village<\/a>. It meets both needs. Here is whats left behind, the broaches, the documents. Then let people experience it. Going back to williamsburg, the people want to be able to see it, to feel it, smell it. Thats whats real to them. Thats what they remember, so that they leave behind the vampire teeth. If you havent been, they have a latrine there and i have actually had students send me a snatch and sniff postcard of the latrine feature. This program has been excellent. Thank you so much. All right. So, i live in the neighborhood. And i am interested in Frank Cousins<\/a>. I think i live on a street named after him. Where can we find out more information on Frank Cousins<\/a>, see some of his actual photographs . Thats one question. The second question is, as part of an historic neighborhood association, what can we do to help, to create an actual museum thats not somebody screaming at you with diorama. Its an actual good museum. Frank cousins is a little elusive. There is a place with all of his photographs. There are a couple smaller libraries that digitized somehow portions. When im going to use a cousins photograph i go to Duke Universitys<\/a> urban landscape collection. There are about 200. Those are Available Online<\/a> . Yes. You also have his books, of course. In which most of his photographs are in the books. Historic new england. He has an art company too. I think i neglected to tell you, his reach was national because he was to entrepreneurial. He had the Frank Cousins<\/a> art company. He would everyone wanted pictures of yee old salem. He gave them. They show up in all these periodicals in the 1890, 1910s and 20s. They have digitalized his sales book, if you want to call it that, its lovely. You can see the kind of mix. What can you do to help . I dont know. [ inaudible ] the books that he published, books on philadelphia and new york. And the new York Preservation<\/a> society has a little archive of his photographs. That you can access online as well. A lot of if you go to sort of architectural publications from the 1890s and 1910s, his photographs are constantly popping up in them. Really had a big reach. He was the goto guy for the old salem that everyone wanted to see, whether it had any connection to witchcraft or not. It is 3 00, so i want to thank the panel for a great job. [ applause ] American History<\/a> tv in prime time features our weekly series the presidency, a discussion on the leadup to john f. Kennedys 1960 president ial campaign and a look behind the scenes into Richard Nixons<\/a> white house. Tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern here on cspan3. Coming up this weekend on American History<\/a> tv, on cspan3, saturday at 10 00 p. M. Eastern on real america, the 1947 u. S. War Department Film<\/a> dont be a sucker about hatefilled speech. I am just an average american. But i am an americanamerican, and some of the things i see in this country of ours make my blood boil. I see people with foreign accents, making all the money. I see Negros Holding<\/a> jobs that belong to me and you. I ask you, if we allow this thing to go on, whats going to become of us real americans . On sunday at 6 00 p. M. Eastern on american artifacts we will tour the president ial vehicles collection at the Henry Ford Museum<\/a> in deerborn, michigan. At 8 00 p. M. Eastern on the presidency george nash talks about the relationship between the 31st president and calvin coolidge. Just four days before the election, coolidge, ever the party regular, finally gave hoover an extraordinarily effusive public endorsement. In a prearranged telegram that o evoked sensational headlines. Hoover he declared had shown his fitness to be president. He said he was able, experienced, trustworthy and safe. American history tv, all weekend, every weekend, only on cspan3. This year marks the 325th anniversary of the salem witch trials. In this program talks about memorializing sites like salem. This hourlong speech is from the Salem State University<\/a> symposium on the legacy of the witch trials for those of you i havent","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia600809.us.archive.org\/26\/items\/CSPAN3_20170824_022900_Salems_Witch_City_Notoriety\/CSPAN3_20170824_022900_Salems_Witch_City_Notoriety.thumbs\/CSPAN3_20170824_022900_Salems_Witch_City_Notoriety_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240628T12:35:10+00:00"}