So lets try to work this out. I think we can. Again, ive got a whole list of reforms here ill be glad to talk to anybody about. Appreciate the work done, appreciate you gentlemen. Were going to work this out and make it better. Yield back. Thank you. Mr. Delanie. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank all the witnesses for joining us here today. Mr. Wilburn, captain, thank you. Mr. Anderson, i want to thank you in particular for joining us and for bringing so many of your colleagues. Delta is an important and iconic company. I think you all should be congratulated for the great work youve done positioning this airline in such a successful business. The fact that all your colleagues joined you hear today is a reflection of the good culture of the airline and your good leadership. I just want to make it clear that i think what youre doing is terrific. My question is actually more of a factual question. Perhaps unlike my colleagues i dont know the answer to my question before im asking it. But i was struck by this page when you put it up. I was very concerned by it. As i think many of my colleagues know, i care deeply about three markets and believe that Market Pricing should dictate all of the kind of government financing. When i saw this, i was very concerned about it. It says the government making 3. 4 and the same loan in the market at 6. 1 of thats obviously a big subsidy. As someone not reading the footnotes, i read the for the note. Private market is nim rod air finance alpha. I looked that up. Thats a special Purpose Entity that owns 58 airlines and leases those to carriers, including the emirates. It leases those airplanes on operating lease not capital lease, which means risk of ownership and benefits of ownership are not fully transferred to the lessee. So when i saw this, recalling my days in the credit business, i said, this strikes me as a worse credit. Id rather lend directly to emirates having their full fate and credit saying they are going to pay back every penny of the loan on fixed amortization which is what xm finances versus loans to a special purposenti entity. I may be wrong. I just did searching on my google device here. My question is, a, is that accurate . B, do you think as the ceo of delta, if you were to borrow directly from the bank i recognize you didnt have to borrow to buy your planes, which is great. If you were to put the full faith and credit of the airlines on the line as well as the lien on the aircraft you purchased wouldnt you expect to borrow at a lower rate rather than if you set up an unrelated company that purchases the airlines and signs a lease to you with certain limited recourse and then you were to get a loan for that special Purpose Entity. Im trying to figure out what the apples to apples comparison is. What we do is try to make it apples to apples. These were Public Market financing. The one on the left had an xm Bank Guarantee attached. You can see the collateral. The coupon is beyond question. Thats obvious. The coupon was obvious. The loan to value ratio with the xm you get a higher loan Development Ratio because you dont need as much equity. What youve approximated here is that this is the emirates credit. But its really isnt it true that its actually not the emirates credit . No. It is the emirates credit based on what moody said. I read the moodys Credit Report on my device here. It talked about how the lessor had risk of the value of the asset at the end of the term, and that it wasnt fully recoursed to tte the emirates. This is apples to apples. One of them they decided they were going to lease, so i think the marketbased financing was a leasebased financing on a380s. Right. But at the end of the lease term, the lessor takes back the airplane if you leased the airplane at the end of the 10 years youd give it back. Correct. Someone had a loan on the plan, that wouldnt be your obligation. Airlines lease we tend to want to own, right, because you get the residual value. But part of what the market is reflecting here is that they are going to return they have decided they want the option to return the airplane in 5. 7 years because thats the average life of the lease. Just a quick question. Do you think you should pay less for direct delta credit in the market secured by assets than you do for a lease. Well, yes. I think youre better off depends on the airplane. Thats probably what they are doing here. They probably want to own the 777s but probably only want to lease a380s. This is what a lease looks like at emirates for their credit. Time of the gentleman expired. Chair recognizes gentleman from South Carolina mr. Mulvaney. Thank you, mr. Chairman. What we started, i know somebody on the other side, i believe it was mr. Heck, i wish he was here, charged us not to believe false statements no matter how many times its repeated. That is always good advice. I would think similarly good advice to not believe statements you cant prove. One of the things he said, i dont want to put words in his mouth but i couldnt find transcript, Export Import Bank if i have the exact verbiage wrong i apologize but that was the general extent of things. Nobody can prove that number. Nobody can prove that number. I want to explore weaknesses in the job number. Nobody can prove that number. Mr. Anderson, you have mentioned in your testimony that the exportimport financing in the aviation sector has cost yall 7500 jobs. Xm says boeing related activity created 51,000 jobs. Who am i supposed to believe between those two . Me. Why . Well, in the instance of delta and the example we use with their india, that actually happened. We went through a reduction in force. Fortunately we were able to get enough employees to take voluntary early retirement. When we pulled all that flying out of india, we had a very successful business flying to mumbai. We bought two 777s and financed them ourselves to be able to do that service. So i know those jobs are there. I think you make a correct intellectual point on both sides of the debate, honestly. It is very difficult to put a precise number for you, or for any of us here. So i guess what i rely back on is i see what goes on in the marketplace. We have one in milan, italy, which has financed airlines from xm bank and dumped 65 increased the capacity milan jfk 65 . Thats going to have an impact on jobs in the u. S. Over time. They are deeply subsidized, which probably really gets to the deeper point of trade subsidies. Look, you make the right intellectual point. These are estimates. They are estimates by everyone, and they are a best judgment. I will tell you air india numbers are right because i was involved in pulling it down and having them do the reductions. If you do scratch a little bit deeper at the Export Import Bank numbers, using formulas that use information from 2002. If she was here talk about components, 30 of 787 is made overseas and its unclear how many of those 255,000 jobs, mr. He heck, are jobs overseas. When go asked about that, xm officials told us they had not assessed extent this limitation affects overall jobs estimate. Supported versus created is another twist of the language. Supported and created are not the same thing. Just because a job is supported doesnt mean its going away if Export Import Bank financing goes away timt. Its important to recognize things as we start using these numbers, talk about jobs. The only reason the Exportimport Bank counts jobs is because of us. Thats it. The only reason they count jobs is to come in here and justify existence. Im not making this up im looking at g affirm o report. It says export import told us they use jobs calculation for reporting purposes only. According to xm officials, xm calculates number of jobs supported for the transactions reviewed by the board of records at the request of one of its Board Members. Xm Board Members said the purpose of reporting these numbers is to give congress a sense of the employment effects. They do not use them for decision making. The om reason they are giving you 55,000 jobs number is because they want to continue to exist. At some point we have to decide which numbers are real and which numbers are fake. I suggest to friends on both sides of the aisle between Government Agency and beaurocracy trying to make an argument to get more money and continue to exist and a private Sector Company thats simply saying, please, leave us alone so we can compete, it is the latter that is the more reliable number. 255 is not a real number. 7500 jobs delta lost of real and thats what we should be focusing on. Time of the gentleman expired. Chair recognizes gentleman from washington, mr. Heck. Thank you mr. Chairman. To clarify the record, its 205,000 jobs for 2013. I believe its 255 in 2012. As reported by the industry, actually, to the Exportimport Bank. Mr. Anderson, i want to ask a question i suspect i know the answer to. Would you favor continuation of the Small Business administration . I dont know anything about the Small Business administration. Im a large business. But i could certainly go learn about it. Please dont. I just dont know. Ive never done any studies. Ive never had anything to do with the Small Business administration. I asked because i thought i knew the answer, and i thought you would say yes. I can say yes if you want me to. Its nice to know what kind of thought you give your testimony today, sir. If you think its a program, im happy to support it. I didnt come here to testify about the Small Business administration. Admittedly. And i wanted to make the analogous point that the sba functions as exportimport credit does. The sba enjoys an enormous amount of public support and is kind of a given. I wanted to give color to your early remarks that it was a reformed xm going forward. You were seeking not elimination of it. That was my only motivation. I do want to make the point that those of you who are aggressively seeking reforms, which may or may not enable the continued existence of xm in any kind of a meaningful way are playing with fire. Youre playing with fire. I want to go back to how i ended up my brief time, the gentlelady was talking about. We could wake up in 20 years and still have a duopoly but unfortunately airbus and state of china and their c9 19. I dont think america would be better off with that. I think america would be worse off. It is the broader point i seek to make, however, which is the importance of aerospace production, one of the important beneficiaries of the Exportimport Bank and the domestic base of this great nation. We dont want to lose it. Weve lost really key components of our Industrial Base over the last several decades and most of us have lived to regret it. The difference is, this is not one we can reconstitute easily. In fact, its not unrelated to this nations security. The hundreds of thousands of people that put together those great airplanes and National Security products are a part of keeping this nation safe. And again, i think we are playing with fire if we think that we can do away with Exportimport Bank and not have that critical part of our Industrial Base decline. I think we are playing with fire if we think we can be as aggressive about certain kinds of reforms that would have that effect and not acknowledge it. I was delighted to hear my friend, mr. Campbell, indicate that he had come up with a bill. I respect him a great deal. This institution is going to miss him. Frankly, im going to miss him. This committee is going to miss him. I thought it was an act of considerable integrity this he accepted responsibility for the development of that which he presented today, having been just on that side. He knows i talked to him on the floor months ago and asked our side be a party to those conversations. But we are where we are. Mr. Campbell has taken the constructive step to put a bill on the floor bill on the table which none of us have had the opportunity to read, so we know not what its impacts will be. Here would be my point about that. In granting him credit for that work, which i know is hard. The exact number is 97. 98 days from now, the doors of the Exportimport Bank will shutter and america will be worse off for it. The alternative is that we have a hearing on an actual bill that mr. Campbell has developed and begin the giveandtake about what the path forward might be. In fact, we only have 97 days. I dont want to wake up in 20 or 30 years, should i have the great blessing to still be around and look back and rue that we were the ones that allowed another enormous degradation of our nations basic Industrial Base as we have in so many other sectors. This nation cant afford it. Our quality of work cant afford it, standard of life cant afford it and quality of life cant afford it. Thank you. Chair recognizes the gentleman from kentucky, mr. Barr. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks to the witnesses for your patience and for your persistent testimony here today. First for mr. Wilburn, i appreciate that youre a Small Business owner and youre an entrepreneur. You mentioned that you were, quote, a free market guy, unquote. Are there other means you could identify of making your company more competitive in the global marketplace besides reauthorization of the xm bank. For example lowering highest tax rate in the developed world, ending the war on Domestic Energy production to make sure we have an affordable and reliable supply of Industrial Energy costs, repealing obama care, for example, promoting free trade, lessening the Regulatory Burden on u. S. Companies, which is estimated to cost the American Economy 1. 8 trillion annually. Do you see some of these policies which would produce impairments to our competitiveness as equally or even more important than reauthorization of the xm bank to your bottom line . Speaking of my bottom line, i think all these things that you mentioned need to be considered in the argument that youre going to have in the next couple of days here really. Its important, i think, to give you a number, if i may just diverge from the question for a moment. There were 165 jobs we created. We audited those. Well be happy to share that with the committee, with our project. But to your point, without the Exportimport Bank existing in a form that would allow me to compete with ecas of the world, my product to get there, i cant imagine my company surviving. I also think as a free market person, a lot of the reforms youre talking about, policies youre talking about need to be debated. We dont need words like crony capitalist and insult some of my people and Small Business people. We need productive words like you just mentioned at this point. Just to conclude, you would agree there are many, many ways to make the United States and our businesses here, including yours, much more competitive, independent of the xm bank issue. Absolute ly. Let me just ask the other witnesses to comment on that just very, very briefly. The one thing i would focus on, its one thing competing in a free marketplace. Its another when our government subsidizes our competitor. Thats what were here about, not all these other things people are bringing in. We have somebody, our own government, government policy subsidizing someone putting a piece of equipment on top of us, were losing jobs and thats what were about. Thank you, mr. Moak. Mr. Anderson when you comment, id add something. Ill summarize the argument, since everybody else is doing it, we should, too. Weve heard that in some form or fashion from a number of my colleagues here today. Is that the right attitude, because everybody else is doing it, we should do it . How would you respond to that . In our specific instance, its not everybody else, its three countries. Its england, france, and germany. Our three closest allies and trading partners. So in terms of Aircraft Finance and Everything Else we do with those three countries, this is something immediately solvable with respect to financing. On the broader question, i think the really broader question is, i dont think were very good at negotiating trade agreements in our country. And while we all support i think on both sides of the aisle the free trade, what ends up happening is in our industry, we dont have free trade agreements. We have unfair trade agreements. I think the biggest thing we could do as a country is make sure our trade agreements are in reality free trade agreements and u. S. Companies are not put at a disadvantage. Mr. Anderson, my remaining time i appreciate your lost pensions at your company. In my Congressional District and just outside of my Congressional District, my constituents in the coal industry not only lost their pensions, they have lost their jobs. What the Exportimport Bank looks to do is harmonize with administrations job killing policies that put people out of work. Time of the gentleman expired. Recognize gentleman from michigan, mr. Huisenga. I want to ask you about epa, mulch rlb, a lot of things going on in this administration. It does strike me after doing basic research we might be ta talking about General Electric 606 billion finance sheet, arm capital with 117 billion assets. It makes them the eighth largest Bank Holding Company in the United States. Boeing company with 92. 7 billi