Performance award, whatever you want to call that, do you is not sending veterans to the outside to private care, is that part of the metric . And no one has answered that question. Is it yes or no . Congressman, i dont know. And ill take that for the record. Okay. Thank you for that. You mention, at least its in the evaluations that you have, the elements outlined for as leading change, leading people, business acumen, building coalitions and results driven. Those are the metrics that you go by. What are the specifics in there . I mean, how they set up. Thats fine. I mean, all that sounds good. But what do you actually have to do to get a 10,000 or in some cases 60,000 bonus . Congressman, in each of the performance plans, there is a template that goes out that says the guidance for the strategy of v. A. And what the employees must do to tie their organization and individual performance to the strategies of v. A. That is how it is determined. And if they exceed, there are different critical elements. Who decides that . It starts with the secretary who will put out v. A. s Strategy Plan and guidance. And then it is give ton to the administrations. They put additional metrics into their template. Let me ask you this question. Fraudulent, if you knowingly cooked the books, which is apparently what happened in arizona, because if you do that with the irs, let me give you an example. If you falsely put your claim out with the irs and claim deductions you dont have, let me tell you whats going to happen to you. Youre going to get penalized. Youre going to pay the taxes. And you might go to jail. Do you think that that should happen to people who fraudulently put out information that led to the deaths of people . A lot worse than not paying your taxes. Do you think that should be part of what we should be doing here today, to look at people who absolutely played, gamed the system so that they could make some extra money, and veterans didnt get care . Because thats what will happen to you in other government agencies. Congressman, i believe when these investigations are complete, that the acting secretary will ensure there will be accountability for those actions. Thats not an answer. I mean, my answer is, somebody who who i mean, accountability to what . What does that mean . The question i ask is, right now today in the irs, you know this. If you and i put something down wrong and were audited, you know whats going to happen. Were going to pay back taxes. Were going to pay penalties. And we might go to jail if its been if its really bad. So the question i have is, is that should that metric, that same standard apply to people who are in the v. A. Who fraudulently done this, if they have . If given that authority, im sure it would be used, congressman. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Mr. Takano, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Ms. Farrisee, can you tell me how many employees under title 5 title 5 is what were talking about. The title 5 employees who were involved in the bonus system. I know theres title 38. But the title 5 employees are the ones who were in charge of managing and responsible for the scheduling. How many employees received bonuses . Across the complete v. A. Or only ses . Well, its the well, give me the ses number first. Actually received of the about 78 of the ses. But that includes title 5 and title 38. Okay. And there are title 5 and title 38 employees at the Medical Centers. Okay. But with regard to the the accountability for the gaming of the system, im trying to get a handle on how how many employees are, sort of, accountable for that. I mean, im thinking the title 38 are the providers that you know, the medical practitioners that for other reasons are getting pay beyond their base pay, right . Correct. But that is possible there are some title 38 employees involved in the scheduling as well. Okay. But just give me an idea of how many employees are involved. Involved overall . I dont have that number but ill take it for the record. Okay. The ig has not completed their investigation. We really probably do not have the final number right now. Okay. Well, how much of the i mean, weve talked somewhat about how the incentives maybe should be based on outcomes rather than these metrics. But im trying to get a handle on why the metrics, we lost control of them. Ive heard testimony it had to do with the technology. That we didnt have we had a scheduling system that was easy to game. Is that your assessment, too . I dont know enough about the scheduling system to make that assessment. Okay. Well, because i im just wondering if the number of employees that were involved just made it very difficult for anyone to, you know, look at how people were scheduled, how veterans were scheduled. And if theres a lot of employees, i can imagine that the that that the scheduling component of the vista system apparently was was vulnerable to this sort of gaming. But you dont have this is not in your expertise . Unfortunately, it is not, congressman. Well, what other incentives could the v. A. Use to recruit and retain Health Care Providers beyond bonuses and performance pay . We have recruiting insentiments, relocation, pension incentives once they are on board. We have authorities from opm to give those type of incentives. For hiring difficult to fill positions, difficult locations sometimes and skills. Well, we know that the va loses Health Care Providers to the d. O. D. Why hasnt the v. A. Considered increasing the base pay of of the v. A. Health care employees so that they receive comparable pay to the d. O. D. . Im not aware that its not comparable pay to d. O. D. Ill have to look at that. Okay. Id appreciate that. Thanks. I want to know if thats true. Has the v. A. Considered offering other incentives such as loan repayment or increased pay for v. A. Providers willing to work in rural and underserved areas . We have not looked at that, congressman. Well, thats interesting. So so my understanding is the rural areas rural areas and underserved areas, is this typically well, we dont know enough about the investigation to know how this gaming the system sort of matches up, whether were seeing the manipulation of wait times sort of be more prevalent in these underserved or rural areas. What additional professional opportunities could the v. A. Offer its Health Care Providers to recruit and retain those who are dedicated to serving veterans . I think we are doing things like market pay, which gives them an additional pay to the base pay. The performance pay, the contracts that they do with their individual superiors. All of that gives them additional pay for us to try to meet the external payments. Well never meet it, but we do try to make it more attractive. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Takano. Mr. Runion, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Just really two observations, and i want to say theres probably not a lot of people in the basis of all, what all these discussions were having, i dont think theres a lot of people on this committee that really have much faith in a lot of the metrics that we use v. A. Wide. Because i know we all go to whether its our Health Centers or our Regional Offices. And are totally confused by any metric they throw at us. And to be able to award performance awards off of those type of metrics are mind numbing to me. And to go back to what dr. Roe really said, and i think you testified to it, youre setting out a template. The secretary is setting out a template. How low is that bar really . Obviously, in my past career, we have performance incentives all the time. We had several tiers of it. We would we would have two categories. Would be likely to be earned and unlikely to be earned. And it would actually count against the salary cap of that team. It wasnt either all in or all out. There were tiers to it. But i just wanted just and ill end here. And i really dont have a question. I just want to say to to be able to have something youre going to set a bar that low, and not be able to really truly measure it, you know, incentives are great. And i dont think anybody here would agree that uniformly across the v. A. That theyre being applied equally. And youve said it, too. Its very subjective. The basis of it is getting the facts. And i think were so far away from that at this point. I really dont even have a question for you, because until we fix that, having the discussion about performance incentives, you cant even have the discussion because theres no basis of fact to have it on. So that i yield back, chairman. Thank you very much. Ms. Custer, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. And thank you for your testimony before us today. Im feeling like were experiencing what they would call in the academic world grade inflation or what garris and keeler would refer to as all of the children are above average. Coming from the private sector, its hard for me to believe that 80 of employees can be either outstanding or this other category that is above and beyond what the expectation is. And it makes me feel like the expectation is lowered to a place that doesnt serve our veterans the way we had wished. But i want to focus in on where we go from here and how we can fix this problem. Because obviously this is a bipartisan issue. We are all concerned. Fortunately, this is one of the few bipartisan committees where we can Work Together and make a difference. My concern lies in how we can fix this situation or help the v. A. To fix this situation. Because it doesnt appear that the policies provide for a methodology to make this kind of change. And by that, what i mean is that we have had some oversight. But at the end of the day, it doesnt seem to change. And i just want to make reference to the vha is unable to assure that all though they identify problems, that the problems will be corrected and do not recur. This is a review of one Medical Center a year later found the identical problems. That it doesnt you dont end up with a change. And i want to focus in on, is there ever an opportunity in the system that we have now where 80 of the people get enhanced pay, is there ever an opportunity for reduction or denial of this enhanced pay . And just moving forward, now that we know what we do know, what will be the consequences to people that, frankly, were lying and cheating and stealing, both Veterans Health care and taxpayers hard earned dollars. Yes, congresswoman. Thank you for that question. I do believe theres room for change. Part of that change will come with more training of our Senior Executives. Them understanding our critical elements that are put in the performance plans in establishing very real goals. And the metrics we have talked about. And ensuring that our metrics are not too low. That, in fact, you must perform to reach that exceeds and that outstanding rating. That we pay much more attention. We have now automated the system of the performance appraisal system. I personally could not see them until they came into hard copy previously. This is the first year its an automated system. Well have a chance to look at all the metrics in advance. We will do a lot more training with our Senior Executives on what these critical elements mean and how our Performance Review committees and Performance Review boards need to view these metrics. I am certain and what about lack of performance . Can someone lose their job . Can they can they get docked pay . Is there is there any capacity in this system to take action when performance is less than stellar, which apparently it is for 80 of the people . Yes, congressman. There is absolutely a process to do that. You can what does that entail . How someone would get fired . It entails proposal of removal, if we are talking about removing somebody from the federal government. That employee would have a right to respond. They get a 30day notice period. Then they can respond, say if theres any mitigating circumstances. That paper then goes to the deciding official who would take into consideration what the employee says. Then a Decision Maker will make within 30 days a decision on the personal action to happen. Depending on what the evidence is for what the employee has done wrong, there is a range of things you can do to an employee. Can i ask you, would criminal conduct be evidence of lack of performance . It would be misconduct. And would the misconduct be sufficient for someone to lose their position . If the evidence proves that through investigation, yes, that is possible. And how about lying to the extent that it wasnt a crime, but it was certainly harmful to veterans being able to get access to care . There is certainly a range of punishment, and depending on all of the details of that, it is possible they could be proposed for removal. Depending again on the evidence and details. Thank you very much. My time has expired. Ms. Kuster, thank you very much. Dr. Ben scheck, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for being here, ms. Farrisee. Dr. Petzel testified in february of this year in the subcommittee on health that six ses employees had been involuntarily removed in the last two years. However, weve tried to get the information as to what the details are of that, and we havent gotten that. Are you aware of this . Congressman, you did receive that yesterday. I know it just came yesterday, but the committee did receive that from the v. A. Yesterday. Okay. So if thats correct that six people were removed and not a Single Person in the ses received less than a satisfactory rating, how did that removal take place . Removals once they were removed, they did not receive a rating. So they would not show up in having received a less than satisfactory rating. So when you see numbers that show no unsatisfactory ratings, its a little misleading. Because those employees then did not get followed up with a rating so youre telling me that there is actually unsatisfactory ratings, but theyre just not listed. Congressman, once somebody departs, they do not thats not thats not accurately depicting whats really going on. That is true, congressman. Im kind of concerned, too. Let me ask you this question. This is from my briefing here. An ses employee works with their supervisor to create a Performance Review plan for each fiscal year. And then they rate their own performance on each critical element at the end of each fiscal year. Yes, congressman. And then so then thats then reviewed by their direct supervisor. By their direct supervisor. The rating official. And then so they rate themselves . They they put down all of their accomplishments. Right. They rate themselves according to this, right . That process is reviewed by their direct supervisor. It is. Thats then approved or disapproved by the direct supervisor. Correct. Then the direct supervisor doesnt actually write the Performance Review themselves. The actual employee writes the Performance Review and the supervisor just okays it or just allows it. Is that what happens . The the portion on the appraisal, there is a selfassessment on there that is optional. So the employee can put a selfassessment in there. But the rating does that usually occur . Im sorry. Does that usually occur . In some of the ratings. Not all of them. Have you ever been involved in this process personally . I am just being involved in it since ive arrived at the v. A. Personally. Ive just finished doing my own ses appraisal plan. We are at the point of turning in our plans right now. How long have you been with the i guess i dont know this. How long have you been there . Since september in this role. So you havent been a direct supervisor to anyone thats done their own plan yourself . Im just doing that now. Youre doing your own plan, but are you actually supervise a direct supervisor . I am. And my deputy has provided to me his plan. We are not to the point of writing the final appraisal yet. Do you think this is a good idea that the the employee themselves writes their own plan . It seems to me that would lead to an 80 percentage of people getting good results. Congressman, i understand. But before that plan is written, there is discussion with the ratee and the rater. They dont just go off and write a plan without some sort of discussion of whats reasonable and what should be considered exceptional. Thats what you say, but the process seems to indicate that the guy writes his own plan, if i do this, this and this over the next year, ill be successful. Then he accomplishes that. And even better. And then he gets a superior rating. You know, i mean, this whole i mean, the questions that have been previously brought up here in the committee, you know, tends to think theres not a real rating going on here. Its just everybodys getting a good rating. You know, im very concerned over the fact that people are writing their own review plan. And it just gets checked by their supervisor. And then the numbers that you present to us arent accurate. And zero you know, zero percent, and theres six people removed. Theres inconsistencies in your testimony. And the testimony of dr. Petzel. Its very disturbing to me that here we are in the middle of trying to reform the v. A. , and we get inconsistent answers. And it makes us not want to trust anything that comes from you people. Mr. Congressman, the numbers that that we provided as far as the ratings are when theres actually an appraisal plan, we did not do those on the individuals who departed. Thats why they dont show up in the numbers. Well, its very disappointing to me to you know, to get these answers from you two today. I think im out of time. Thank you, dr. Benishek. Maam, you said that the the selfevaluation or Senior Executive selfassessment is optional. Are you sure its optional . As part of that plan, there is im looking at the performance appraisal form. Senior executive performance appraisal form. The 3482 . Yes. 3482. And there are rating official narrative that is i guess what im looking at, the only place i see thats optional is if the person is asking for a higher level review for their pay. Or its optional to put a letter of input. But the other two sections, section 3, Senior Executive selfassessment, does not appear to be optional. Form 3482. Section 3. Senior executive selfassessment. Describe your accomplishments, outcomes and results. I think you just told dr. Benishek that was optional. Im going to take that back and say i may have misspoken. Can i get back with you on this, chairman . Yes, you can. Thank you very much. Ms.