This program is about 90 minutes. Mr. Bond Justice Thomas, thank your for being with us on explorations in black leadership. I want to begin with a question about brown v board. Did you have some sense that this was a big deal . Justice thomas well, not at the time. The big deal was learning the multiplication table and learning how to add, but as the years went on, particularly 1956, 1957, you got a sense of it because there was quite a bit of talk about it. My grandfather was very involved in the naacp, for example. So you heard that. You also heard, as i mentioned when i wrote my memoirs, that we saw the impeach earl warren science along the highway. Signs along the highway. Later on, i would figure it out that it was the chief justice of the United States and he was in trouble. Mr. Bond i guess there is no way i could ever say would you ever think youd be sitting at the building where girl worn worked . Where burrell worn earl warren worked . Did you have some idea of what it might mean, what it could mean as opposed to what it might have turned out to mean . Justice thomas you know, my grandfather was an interesting man. And he felt that as you as these rights were vindicated, that we had an obligation to measure up, to use them. I would give you an example. When the Savannah Public Library finally desegregated and we were allowed to go to the main library, his point was that we were obligated to use it. That is, we had to show up no matter what and we had to read books because we finally had a right to do so. Education, aso the rights became available, we had an obligation to use them properly. So he would say to me, in 1964 when i went to the seminary which was previously allwhite, he said, dont shame me and dont shame the race. In other words, you have to perform. Mr. Bond do you think that the brown decision had something to do with opening the doors of the seminary you attended . Justice thomas oh, i think the seminary had an impact in lots of ways, absolutely. That was 1964. That was 10 years later and things were changing slowly. But absolutely i think it got the ball rolling. I think it changed attitudes. It changed the legal arrangements. People like phyllis, on the 11th circus now, she was on the board of education in savanna and started moving things in that direction back then. And so in talking with her and and previously before that, johnson, who ran the reform, absolutely. There is a combination of things that moved us in that direction. Yet at the same time, you have been critical of the prudence that created brown. Justice thomas oh, not critical in that sense. Theouldve been stronger in sense that we all, or do opinions, you look at another opinion and you say, well, i dont agree with this approach are that. Mr. Bond what do you think it has turned out to mean all these years later . Justice thomas oh, i think it really did something that couldve been done back when plessy was decided. And that is to affirm something that is clear in the 14th amendment, and that is that all citizens have the same right. All citizens of the united dates. And it made it possible in a practical way for us to at least have a possibility to have the same education. 202 7488000 for if you look mr. Bond Justice Thomas if you look, for example, i am a big sports fan, and when i grow up, games like georgiaflorida meant nothing. It meant nothing because those schools were segregated. State had savannah playing georgia state, that meant something. But now when you watch the georgiaflorida game or the alabama game, you have such a large number of black athletes involved that you can see that even just from a perception or entertainment standpoint it is quite different. That campus was not open to me. So i think it has changed quite a bit. Mr. Bond and you can trace all these to brown . Oh, Justice Thomas obviously. Justice thomas Justice Thomas oh, obviously. Mr. Bond i have read that you think brown is sort of a precursor of affirmative action. That it open the door. Justice thomas no, not really. I dont think i have ever said that. Mr. Bond im not quoting you as having said that, but just that brown happened and then the enforcement of brown, or the carrying out of brown, open the racialr kind of of spoils system. Justice thomas not really. I think that that you know you can debate that, but that is sort of a structural injunction. Wheremedy is something you have set up a broad system rather than deal with the case before you. But i dont think that is accurate. Mr. Bond ok, i stand corrected. How do you think brown impacted your life . You talk about these private schools, which are not touched by brown, that were opened you because of brown. Justice thomas oh, i think just sitting here. Just the fact that we are here. Think about it. To the extent that people have sentiments that were inconsistent with the constitution, that were somehow enforceable either by custom or by law, brown was one of the major pieces that begin the erosion of those customs and those attitudes. Whether it is in parks or public facilities, whether it is public accommodations later on, but it changed. I was right there in the late 1960s as it was just beginning to change. It wasnt changed yet, but just think of something as simple as being able to go half a burger. At one of the big boys in savanna. You couldnt do it. So, yes, it has changed tremendously. You cannot overestimate the significance of it. Mr. Bond who were the people that have been most significant in helping you develop your talents . I know the influence your grandfather had. Justice thomas you know, i would have to really stay close to home with that because as the years have passed and i think about the people i have learned who havethe people participated in my education, it all goes back to the most crucial parts of my life. And those would be people like my neighbors, my cousins. These were uneducated people in liberty county. You have been there. You have been out in rural parts. And those people have more of a direct influence on me. In the educational arena, i have to start with the nuns because the thing that may they never bought into was a sense that somehow we were different. And we were to be treated separately. Their expectations were that we were going to parochial schools and we would learn the program will School Curriculum the parochial School Curriculum and there was no difference. But then it goes on from there and he gets a little bit user. But out have to start mr. Bond one you picked out for special mention his sister mary. Justice thomas she is still alive. She is in her mid90s. She is an irish immigrant. She went in the convent in 1931. She was originally, as far as at aiocese were concerned, macula conception, then she came to savannah. Immaculate conception and see appendix in savannah had been orphanages and saint benedicts in savannah had been orphanages. But she was unyielding in their attitude that you would do well. It was consistent with my grandfathers attitude because as a kid, i want to do what 12 and 13yearolds do, i want to have fun. And my grandfathers view, and hers, was that we do not have the luxury in the 1950s to have fun. That we had an obligation to perform. And to do well. Mr. Bond you mentioned neighbors. What about neighbors . Justice thomas that is a really good question. Nobody have has ever asked me that. What they do is they reinforce. The people around you reinforce. For example, if you are learning piano or an instrument or sports, it is called repetition. Repeating it over and over and over and over. Well, neighbors tended to reinforce what you are getting at home, what youre getting at school, what youre getting at your church. The positive things. What you got at the Carnegie Library in savanna. It was all the same message. My cousin patty, ms. Gertrude, ms. Gladys next door, it was all the same message. Mr. Bond are these people sort of like surrogate parents . Yes, it wasas always consistent. They were my neighbors. In the south, of course, when anybody could tell you what to do. They could say go to the store to buy some snuff or whatever they wanted at the time. Some sandbag that it took quite frequently. But the and then i remember one day i was on east broad and henry street just done a few blocks from our house. And we were cautioned that would across the street against the light. Of course, im a kid so we crossed against the light. And out of the back window of the bus, you heard this voice. I am going to tell on you. That was the worst horse ever to hear. That was ms. Gertrude. And before we got home, i dont know how she got the message to my grandmother, but before we got home, she had informed her that we crossed the street against the light, whereupon we were informed that your granddaddy would deal with you when he comes home. And that or he said your daddy will. Worst threat to could ever have. Mr. Bond so these people feel free to discipline you . Justice thomas they didnt have the need because they knew the fear of my grandfather was more than enough to discipline us. But if they had to, yes. And then we would get a second one from my grandfather. Mr. Bond oh, boy. [laughter] do you remember personal of ends that you view as critical to your understanding of American Society and history . Events from the civil rights movement, ovens in savannah, something that let you events in savannah, something that let you know who you were, where you were, what was expected of you or what was not expected of you . Justice thomas that would be hard. I dont think it is a specific event. I think it was a daily event. And it occurred with the neighbors were with the teachers. It is a small world. We lived a short walk from our school, our grammar school. And even a shorter work from high school. Walk from high school. The farm was a 45 minute drive, even on in that traffic on highway 17. And it was all the same attitudes, the same culture. So i think as anything of one sporadic event occurring that shaped me, it was a continuum or continuity of events. Mr. Bond youre right about your grandfather being called boy by a white woman and struggling to restrain himself from stepping a man after another assault. What effects to these have on you . Justice thomas it had a great effect on my grandfather, which in turn headed had an effect on me. Thats a man who thought when you talk to freedom, he talked of independence. That is the ability to do for yourself, the ability to grow your food. And he was a very active member in the naacp. We went to meetings on sunday. He would take us along because we had to learn it he thought that we should learn how to read so that we werent like him where he was having to work with his hands. He wanted us to learn how to work with our minds. But i think it had an influence on him because it wasnt that he had an assault on from the man on his ice truck, it was that he confronted him and said some unpleasant things to him, and my grandfathers reaction was intensely passionate. He felt like he was going to harm that man. Points it was different because we were there. The first one, we were not there. We were there as little kids and to watch him first look at us and then look back at her, they look at us again, and then no it is almost as if he had made a decision that i have to raise my boys. Knowing him the discipline it took for him to do the right thing and the responsible thing. Mr. Bond do you think you look that you to test what your reaction would be to this insult . Or to see whether or not you had noticed it and absorbed it in any particular way . Justice thomas i think it was a blow. And i think that he noticed us as we noticed him. Kids, i think you think, what you going to do . And how are you going to deal with it . You are the greatest man we know. And some people, you know, they seem emboldened by those kind of things and take off in the wrong direction and do something that can ultimately be selfdestructive. He did the hard thing. Discipline. D his and that is a lesson to me and my brother that even when you might feel strongly about something or feel justified in doing something, that could be selfdestructive. You must do something that is more prudent and certainly beneficial and constructive in the long run. Too much maybe putting into this, sort of an exercise in selfcontrol. Justice thomas that is right. Mr. Bond look at how i am reacting to this. Justice thomas remember what he said, that is precisely the point i am making. Remember, he always said to us that i will never tell you to do as i say, i always will tell you to do as i do. That is a hard burden to put on yourself. Because we did indeed watch him. We were kids. We were always around him. It isnt like today when parents are hauling kids around to soccer and it is like the parents are working for the kids. It was the other way around. We were like the little ducklings following the leader. Mr. Bond whether any incidents in the news when youre growing up in savannah that let you know who you were and what some people thought about you or how you are to think about yourself . Justice thomas oh, i can remember being herded into a little den where the motorola tv was, and the news was a big deal in those days. And we all had to watch what was going on in little rock. And being horrified. And later on, we would see the hose things and we would watch hosing and we would watch what happened in birmingham. It absolutely had a tremendous impact. Mr. Bond i am the same age as the little rock nine, and they had a big influence on me because they were my age and i saw people like me in birmingham , im guessing in 1963, so these are children roughly your age. The fact that these young people or doing this speed to your more profoundly than it might have done had they been older people . Justice thomas i was in the ninth grade when that happened. And ninth grade, as a young kid, you begin to feel [indiscernible] and you begin to have this sense that we should be doing something. I can remember my grandfather distinctly telling us, away, you are not old enough no way, you are not old enough. Your job is to go to school. Your job is to learn. So, yes, you saw it all. You saw other parts of the country and you also read about what was happening in savannah. The lunch counters, the kids from Savannah State with the sudan. With the sit in. Grandfather using his property for bill. Working with the naacp. And they can have an effect. Mr. Bond a few minutes ago, you mentioned wesley law. A man who, mind you, fleetingly, but did other people have sent to mr. Said there was a man in my town who was a leader and raised matters. Nothe was pointed out to me to somebody i ought to imitate, but somebody doing things for the race. Justice thomas he was revered in our household. The ww law, we called him. He was a mailman and he was very active. He was a leader. He was summoned who was very supportive, and we disagreed on some things years later, but those disagreements didnt change things with me and how i looked at him. But he was just a man who stood it was it looked like dangerous to stand up. He was one who said, this is wrong. And not going to work to make changes. And i am going to work to make changes. The other people who i didnt know who were revered in our high school, kravitz was a local lawyer in savannah who happened to be jewish and allowed black lawyers to use his library and things like that. And his daughter, phyllis, who is now on the 11th Circuit Court of appeals. And a number of others who would fight back or who would actually show up to the meeting. That is what my grandfather would talk about. Who showed up, and who didnt show up. Who had property to use for bail money, and who refused to allow their property to be used. There was another gentleman in our area, sam all items, who is a williams, who was a friend of my grandfather, who was also involved. Mr. Bond so they are doing things, not necessarily that you have to do these things, but they are doing things that are admirable and setting an example for others. And the ones who dont do these things are, in effect, letting the community down. Justice thomas it was different than because they didnt always agree on what it was they should be doing. Mr. Bond sure. Justice thomas as you remember years later, when some of us became very radical, we were critical of the sort of go slow approach, or people working within the system. But my grandfathers attitude was that you should do something. You should not just sit and do nothing. And you didnt have to always agree on what that something was, but you dont just accept the status quo because you are lazy or you are fearful. And they were put up, there were shown as examples of people who actually took the risk and made the effort to do something. Mr. Bond even if it was something that you didnt necessarily agree with, they were doing something. 3 that is exact way Justice Thomas that is exactly paired mr. Bond let me take you back to the time that is exactly paired mr. Bond let me take you back to the time when you are at the seminary and you hear the news of Martin Luther kings assassination. Is you heard, this s. O. B. Finally dead. Jack up itat do seems to have set you off the path to priesthood what did that do . It seems to have set you off the path to priesthood. Justice thomas that year, i was beginning to be a little bit shaky about it. What he said was, that is good, i hope the s. O. B. Died. I wasnt following every move of dr. King because there were others at the time. The beginning of the black power thing, malcolm x has been around, and there were some more dissension than people talk about today, but there was, you know, some dissension. But that wasnt it. It was deeper than that. This was a man of god. Who was, again, whether you agreed or disagreed, was doing something right. And he was doing something for good. Why would a fellow seminary in wish him dead seminarian wish him dead . This was the end. At the same time, Something Else was happening. This sort of racial awareness. The fact that as you got older and you thought more deeply and the with, seminarian more i thought about it, the more i thought the church should have been to more to point out that this is morally wrong and objectionable. Of course, that was not the case, at least as i saw it. I was looking at it from my very limited perspective at that time. Yes, it was the end of my vocation. Mr. Bond and then your right to later, or talk later, about an experience at holy cross when you joined a protest in Harvard Square in 1970, and then begin to ask yourself, again, according to this interview, why was i doing this rather than using my intellect. Justice thomas well, that goes back to my grandfather. He said that there are gifts that you have, opportunities that you are given to elevate. To become better educated. There wa