Graduation. I didnt care. I went. I went home. I came back up when i went to newark. Mentioned this already. Theyre all looking to the south for a new type of movement. Know that in many respects it to be a place where the movement came and found an urban complex. To judex bliss of the understand that was your project when you came . I did. The movement had already come north. I just do not think about it as being the movement. Was doing in harlem, trying to build a playground in 1964, that was part of the movement. These projects were all in the north based on the same concept. We have to take what is going on in the north. It is more about class. That was the foundation. These young people were not marxist but they understood marx. Racism can be overcome if they tousted this back down include more people. When they came near, they had the neighbor corporation. Lighting urban renewal, aching sure there is no discrimination against blacks. They were an integrated group of mostly right white jewish homeowners was some black homeowners as well. They all have a working class. It was an interesting mix of people. They thought they were working with poor people. They were not. People thoughtl they were going to pick up from where they were. They do not want to do that. There was a split. By the time i got here, they have moved down. There were two homeowners. Mostlyf tenants and blacks. Mostly black players and poor living in the same neighborhood. They had a base of several hundred people and on several blocks. Wasissue that they came unemployment. That didnt wor. K. People do not want to talk about their employment status. Le had jobs. They were just bad jobs. Theres not a lot of unemployment like there was now. It was underemployment. It was beginning of the working poor. We did not know it at the time but that is what it was. They are still only guiding people. Not have credit cards and, people got credit. They would him the credit. Of bait andhole lot switch. That is what they were doing, taking on those kinds of issues. Have did you find your way into the role here . What commanded your attention . You whatated captivated you . You mean once i was here . I wanted to be in organizer. I saw what i could get from being here. This experience talked me how to walk through the valley of the shadow of death. In organizer. Here we were on a frontier. He did have that aspect. This understand class by point. Talking about it and reading about it and studying about it. I was ready for that challenge. People get black organized in a context that is not purely racial . You are not going to have people with those that are terrorists per se. You have believe that youre doing legally. There are people that did not have enough money to make their way based on the new job that they did have. Folks that say what you can live here because the whole area was lack. The housing was so bad in some cases that you would not want to keep your dog there. How do you fight it . That is what kept me going. I wanted to organize people to fight that kind of fight. He mentioned the new york immunity union project. Out this program. You would also work with the hutchins. Can you describe the range of organizations trying to begin this in new york . This was not the first by any means. There are people here who are already struggling aginstainst t same array of new enemy. Array ofy discovered forces that were keeping people down. There were various combinations of People Associated with poor and other organizations. One was called in bill. There were some black labor unions. To stayle who managed out of the clutches. This. As there were some white rabbis. A core demonstration protesting a lack of construction jobs at a school. We had a blackandwhite that was liberal. I would call it liberal. This came on. They were a radical. This was a form of democracy that nobody was willing to allow. It was a form of democracy that have not taken root in this town. They let the people decide. The people was reading through all hours of the night. It makes most of the basic decisions. Not just one major. As it turned out, the leader was tom. Tom was the main man. He was the big man on campus. They were competing for that same position. Then there were the Community People who have their own set of standards to what they wanted to see done. She was the office manager. You had sent that was discovered by the deep will. Her husband was like a mainstay of the organization. We got all of that together. Bad landlords. That was interesting. Situation,brutality and this is more for my review of the written records as written by some of the organizers. A lot of the organizers felt po volatileality was to because it was too racial. There were white cops beating black heads. You cannot get away from that. This is something they really did not want to deal with because they could not control the emotion of the people who were at that did. The poor had weekly demonstrations against Police Brutality. People were getting beat up regularly. Some people were getting killed. I was on aay i came core demonstration against because of aity black man that was shot by a cop. I did not know him at that time. I did not Even Association with anything other than the fact that he was a cop. Same ran fromhe for city council and we became friends. I had no idea that was the same i was in my first demonstration against my first day in newark. I had no idea. He was a completely different man. I do not see how that man could have shot somebody. You know how i found out . By doing some research about what was going on on that corner on that day. I get to talk to him about that. I probably wont. Judge whatyou happened in the summer of 60 seventh at 3 billion will suddenly dominate so much of how people think about this history . All the Police Brutality, terrible conditions, underemployment, how did you feel about your progress against the goal of starting something that would yield results . How did you feel the first 20 four months you were here . When i first came, i was not here for 24 months. I was here for the summer. I went to new haven to yale. In my first several weeks i realized one thing. That race was going to be a bigger issue than these kids were able to deal with. Were the two black college types on campus so to speak. We talked about it all the time. It is becoming more and more difficult for white people to go out and organize black people. In 1966, there was a whole lot of conversation about that. The final bill in 1966 said weve got to go out and organize them. Carmichael replaces louis at our very terminal two is meeting when lewis went away thinking he was the president. Tumultuousery meeting when lewis went away thinking he was president. Was not a part of the hierarchy. Montgomery, a grunt. A soldier in the army of the lord. Later. About this it cannot happen overnight. What peoplesaying can do this. Race is predominant. People do not go along with a lot of what he said but a lot they did. There were other nationalists raising that issue. Losingegrationists were ground. King was losing ground. He saw it himself. I cannot go out and tell people to be nonviolent. Continuing to sell the nationalists that they are wrong and less america gives me something to work with. All of that was against it. We started in our microcosm in newark. Because of Police Brutality and that wereions just as far from getting out of hand. Organized this in ses. K at the second you had the south war. This wasntral wars, like a hangout for young men. That is where he spent most of. Is time , 605i was still here. Maybe after i left in the summer. They took that separate line as a sign of black power. It was impossible to do anything in newark without adjusting the racial issue. Looked at the doubleedged sword that they present peers some people like to do about it. Like to talk about appeared what people like to come in the neighborhood and help. Some people do not. Time in 1965 was full of people who would just come from the south. End of thee tail second great migration from the south. The southernere in experience. A lot of people do not trust white people. If other people loved white people and wanted to be with the white people. There was an inkling that created a great deal of hostility. We were beginning to see that there is more hostility. We cannot get people to understand that these white people over here are different. It took up too much time and energy to explain that. I found that on the block. At some point i was getting my own blog. I must have been doing all right. They assigned me to work with over aher and breaking new block in the central word. How are we going to get a stop light . That is what the people said they wanted to do. Among them was a man named a bullet. I can work with you but i cannot work with him. He was becoming a muslim or arnie was. I am not sure which. He knew the nation of islam line. He challenged me. He and i talked about it. I did not want to stop working. I didnt. I Still Believes in an integrated movements. I thought the whole class issue was the best way to deal with it. It was becoming more and more impossible. You still lived together . Yes. ,as there any point at which obviously the fbi cannot say how these were parts of the story ultimately. Sense thate any there are the folks who were being watched and monitored closely . More because of phil then me. I was just a grunt. They were doing what they told me to do. Until i got my blog. A little later on, i guess 1968, i looked back. There was a house unamerican meeting. S at some point, some policeman a letter fromnted me to tom hayden. I did not give him that letter. I am sure tom did not give him that letter. Who the hell gave them that letter . It was really and an accusation, of living with his hell raiser Phil Hutchens who everyone knows is a hell raiser. They were all trying to blame us for the riot, for the rebellion. It was a conspiracy. That was the context. That is how the containing take place. They did the damage in the 50s and the 60s. Nobody was really paying attention to them. There were more important things to deal with. We were under surveillance at that time. Another time i went to california to see my sister who was alive at that time living in los angeles. I came back. My bad was opened. What happened to my suitcase . A few days later jimmy who was , i head of the court said understand you went to california. How did you know that . The fbi asked me what you were doing in california. I put two and two together. They have search my bag when i came back. They wanted to see if i was bringing anything in. Evidence alsoof in 1960, all of this is post rebellion where i become more than just a yellow sticky. I was asked to go on a trip to europe to look at newtown based. N some group enters they knew i was interested in how it had worked. Asked to go at the tail end. I got my passport. I went. In france, iran into this young woman i ran into this young woman named jackie. I was a riot is clear she was in france and here i was in france we have this great reunion. It was at an automat. People do not know what that is good it was a Fast Food Restaurant of the day. I am buying food. This finally becomes up and looks at me. We had this big reunion in the automat. Happy,dy is happy, happy. Long story short, we got together later on that day. Shes are asking me questions about what was i doing in france. What was i doing on the strip . What was i doing . In that she is attracted to me. I was certainly attracted to her. Were walking down the left bank of the river. She just walked with the head. I said why are you running so fast . Walking. Kept i walked faster. She walked even faster. At some point, my ego said i dont need this. She walked on. Ive never seen her again. She never contacted me. I put two and two together. She was representing the man. She wanted to find out why i was there and what i was doing. She got the confirmation she needed that i was harmless. I really was. This is the kind of thing. There was this all the time. It went on. I was thinking about this. At theermission to look papers down in trenton. I became friends after the medical side. I asked him if i could take a look at the files. Im thinking about writing a book. This is long before i wrote anything down. He gave me permission to look into his bag. With all kinds of stuff with people that i knew that were informing on us to the police. I was amazed. That is the way it went. Let me just check. 6566, the two academic semesters in spring. You are in new haven. Summer 66, here again. 68 and 66 in new haven. In summer of 67. I am back. That it diduming not surprise you. Were you anticipating open conflict in the streets of new work . It had happened other places already. Everybody was predicting it. [indiscernible] coming back from philadelphia from the black power conference down there. I heard it. There i came in here to see it had been sealed off. We can get it in. I came in. I think i went home that day. The next day it could have been that same night. I was in the car with three other guys. I think it was the next night. Philadelphiao to with me. We are just whining around riding around. Ill remember his name in a minute, i cannot right now. It was court street. Going up the hill. I heard the sirens coming. Rearview mirror. There was a cop car bearing down on us. We were out after the curfew. They pulled me over. Four guys get out. Shotguns, up against the car, mother fucker, which of course we did. They searched us. Found nothing on us. The told me to open the hood. Fortunately, i had law books i had forgotten to take out. There was a tense moment there. Aresergeant said these guys law students. The other police, they didnt want to do that. Begun on allad of us at the whole time, leaning up against the car. Sergeant was there. Is a youre goingl toaw have trouble explaining this one. Student. The others were not law students. I think youre trying to save our lives. At some point they made a down,on, put the shotgun jumped in the car and toure off. Was the first time i looked down the wrong end of a shotgun. How did you assess what was happening . How did you added up at the time . Time, after that First Encounter with the police to try to stay on the cover under cover as much as i could hear it at some point we just left the house. We were in a basement apartment. I think they may have had the wrong address. Us at 642 high street but it was really 624. That might be significant. Some bad policing on that part. Beaid people are happy to destroying, happy to turn the tide. I knew something was going to happen. When the state police came into town, things changed. Peras during the second thati theo stated police rioted. I was in charge of a group of law students. We were working in the housing project. Igating theest whole relocation process. That was eventually what we cited. That to godoing interview witnesses to the police. That is when i really saw what the damage had been. My law student to information out of the one. Bar where two young men had come in after the thing had been looted and were still looking for whatever they could find. Cops rolled up on them. They cannot get out. One of them hid in the other one , okay, i am here. Began toasically systematically shoot him. They shot him 46 times. Information down and we thought somebody is going to do something about it. They were coming in from all over the place. Fter the rebellion was over, they took all of this it overion and turned to the authorities. I was cut before a grand jury. Caught before the grand jury. Heres the part that i did not tell you. [indiscernible] about this particular incident. Is to one of the Funeral Homes and took joseph the court. It was destroyed. As you can imagine. Then he made a flyer and put it all over town. Is this what youre going to allow to happen to the young people . When i was called in for the grand jury, they asked me, didnt i think it was pass the flyer around . First of all, i do not pass it around. Second of all, did you do get was shot 46 times in his head . Now i am a smart alec. They did not like me but theres nothing they could do about it. They knew it was true. As time went by doing the actual during the actual time of the rebellion, there became more stories like that. People were really whipped. As it turned out, the power stretch year was really scared of what would the power structure was scared of what was happening. Woman louise who was a homeowner. So said when interviewed what of the rebuilding in . I cannot get anybody to talk to me. Afterery billion the rebellion, everybody wanted to talk to me. That kind of experience. Weve got to do something about them. Weve got to borrow some of that energy that is now running in our favor. The tide has temporarily turned. Imagean we do with that of the black man with the [indiscernible] what can we do to turn around to turn around and make things better . Word about thea brothers . The united brothers was formed. I think the letter came out in december of 19 67. He was born and raised here. He went out to california and met ron and became very much influenced what karina was doing in los angeles with his group called u. S. He wanted to do Something Like that here. Of minenother contact of electing a black man. He understood the whole concept united front. Most of us did. He had been new york and then on the frontline with a lot of people who were thinking. We were not thinking at that time. He was in a position to do that. During the rebellion, he was the badly by the cops. He had a National Reputation but not that many people knew him here except the few he grew up with. He was doing his own work with the arts. We were doing our work in our own little bailiwick. When he got beaten that day, the cameras went all over him. Became much bigger than he was. The back power conference came the last days of the rebellion anyway. Said you need to stop that. Oaks that they are not going to stop it. Rice was his name. He was in charge of that. Morocco became the keynote speaker. He was in the position to influence a lot of people. Atincluded some of us who that point had taken on a leadership position. My position was i was just a soldier in the army. After the rebellion after we resurrected the site, we resurrected the site that really have been law. The committee had come together in the spring of 1967 to area ofate about the those who propose. There was a lawsuit. Upon anased incompletion of testimony at the hearing to determine whether it should be taken. They lost that. During that time, some of his people had taken the books out of the hand of the clerks. They were going to see what happened next. They said this was one of the reasons for the rebellion. Had nothing to do with any of that. I was in the audience sometime when that happened. I came down and saw it from new haven. Not anywhere near the leadership of that. After the rebellion is still not the together the new area plan. I have been in new haven a