but believe me the people in washington square never went on the other side of sixth avenue. >> at 8:00 p.m. on the presidency -- >> every time i look at washington it's unanimous. unanimously commander in chief, unanimously president of the constitutional convention. unanimously president of the united states, unanimously appointed as the lieutenant general and commander in chief of all the armies raised or to be raised for the service in the united states. what a record. >> george washington scholar peter enreekz explores that even though washington was officially retired he continued to meet with political figures from the thu capitol and was often called upon to craft policy. for the complete american history tv weekend schedule, go to c-span.org. thursday a discussion on regulating e-cigarettes. the american enterprise institute looks at the legal, legislative and public health implications of the fda's plans to regulate the product. see it live at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. president obama's in colorado springs thursday to deliver the commencement address at the u.s. air force ak academy. we'll have live coverage of the president's remarks starting at noon eastern on c-span. c-span's "washington journal" live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. on thursday, we're live in laredo, texas, on the u.s./mexico border to talk about trade issues affecting the region and the country. san antonio express trade reporter lynn better zouski discusses the flow and volume of trade across the border. also texas congressman joins us to talk about how trade benefits laredo and the country. then bob cash stake director for texas trade coalition and nafta critic looks at how the trade deal moved jobs from southern texas to mexico and how that hurts mexicans as well. be sure to watch c-span's "washington journal" live from laredo, texas, beginning at 7:00 a.m. eastern thursday. join the discussion. up next on american history tv, a discussion about the role of music in the anti-vietnam war movement with political singer-songwriters country joe mcdonald and peter yarrow. during the vietnam war, mcdonald performed with country joe and the fish and yarrow was a member of peter paul and mary. this discussion is part of a three-day conversation at the lbj library in austin, texas, titled the vietnam war summit. this 50-minute program begins with a performance by joe mcdonald and ends with several songs by peter yarrow. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ applause ] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> please welcome to the stage mr. peter yarrow singer-songwriter and political activist and the executive director of the grammy museum at l.a. live joining mr. country joe mcdonald for our next panel. >> well, joe, on behalf of everyone here i want to thank you for exercising your freedom of expression and freedom of speech. thank you very much. 50 years. and be, boy, for those of us who were alive back then and remember that song and remember those days, that was one song that could always get a response going and it did even here. interesting, huh? look, every generation has a sound track. every historical era has a sound track. every historical moment. every movement. music has played a vital part in america's history. it's been there from the revolutionary times and it goes right through our history even today. and almost always the music was creative, expressive, and sometimes controversial. and certainly in the 1960s the music was controversial because for the very first time american pop music embraced the idea that a song could act as an agent of social and political conquest. it could do something that allowed change in our world and in our time. it could do something to rally people to a particular point of view. and when in the 1960s this became something of import, many, many artists from country joe and peter paul and mary on down took to the microphone, picked up guitars, and began to present a point of view. and sometimes that point of view was positive. for some people and negative for others and sometimes it was just different. however, what happens by the late 1960s, it's very clear that rock 'n' roll pop music folk music soul music funk music all kinds of music has embraced the political point of view thanks in large measure to vietnam. so i'd like to discuss with my colleagues today and really begin with peter if you will since you go back to the early 1960s with this, we said on an earlier panel i believe it was yesterday or the day before that many of the ideas of the anti-war movement sprouted from the civil rights movement. and you of course were very much involved in the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. is that an accurate statement? and if so, how did it happen? >> yes. that is the case. i'm not sure that my microphone is on. yes, there we are. okay. can you hear me? all right, good. the civil rights movement was very important in terms of the anti-war movement in many ways. number one, we were looking at what we, we who were a part of the civil rights movement, peter paul and mary sang at the march in washington in 1963 where martin luther king delivered his "i have a dream" speech and we sang two songs at that gathering. one of them was "if i had a hammer" and the other was "blowing in the wind." and if i had a hammer had become a very big hit. everythi everybody knew it and blowing in the wind, it was the first exposure of america to the work of bob dylan. and that song peeked on the charts the week before the march on washington in '63. so we sang it, but we didn't sing it alone. we were not singing two people, just as you just sang with joe. the people held hands, and what they said together with that expression of sing together was "our hearts are united." and we are united in doing something that is considered by many to be unamerican, by many to be unpatriotic. we were not following the rule of law. the rule of law supported at that time lynchings for which there was no possibility of some kind of legal recourse, prosecutions. you go to washington, d.c., if you were a person of color you could not use a bathroom or a public bathroom or a public water fountain unless it said "for colored only." what we were supporting was the point of view that challenged the law. it challenged what doing -- you do your duty. you follow this law. no. for the first time, we said, as moral citizens, we have to do what is right for our country. our country is not always right. our country is -- but our job as citizens is to be engaged in that dialogue. so that set the stage for saying what our country -- if you're a patriotic to us, you have to stop a war that we all felt was killing our young men. peter paul and mary sang in the v.a. hospitals. we honored the troops. we prayed for the troops. we loved the troops. we loved that they did what they could and put their lives on the line for us. but we opposed the war and ultimately we did what we felt was a patriotic thing, which was to contra vein a policy that was being pursued that was faulted extraordinarily on many levels. number one, it was based on a tissue of lies. we know that from the pentagon papers. we that now from mcnamara's, the westmoreland. but at the time we also knew it and we said, how can as john kerry said and i worked with john kerry at vietnam veterans against the war, and i saw them suffer, suffer not only for what they experienced but for their being juror yaexcoriated when t opposed the war. what we learned, what we could do was as americans love america by opposing what we felt was a war that as i said did not have a legitimate purpose. and today as i speak of this, now i'm 3 ithrowing it back to you, had we really fully embraced what you're trying to do here today at the center which is supporting the basis of will healing, is exactly what was said in the last discussion panel which was, we have to have a clear purpose, know that we are in jeopardy. we have to know that that's the case. or we go open and do it, again, as we did from my point of view when we went into iraq. and if we can heal and hate the war and not divide between chose who say, you were unpatriotic, no you were unpatriotic and say we love those who put their lives and there were people who resisted the war went to jail, left their lives. we have to honor them. we have to honor those who put their lives on the line for the country in the service of trying to do what they could in their patriotic view. and if we can do that, there can be some healing. that's what we need to do. [ applause ] >> joe -- has become one of the signature songs of the antiwar movement it's an interesting story, a, how you wrote it and then also it's incredible spontaneous role in the woodstock music festival. can you tell us how first you came to write it and second how you came to perform it at woodstock. >> well, i was in the navy during the civil rights pretty much and i came back, went to college. they didn't tell me about the gi bill. i dropped out. my parents were radical leftists so i grew up with communism. but i didn't like communism. they didn't help us in any way. but i didn't hate communists even though my parents were communists. and you know i had a good time in the military. i was -- and because of the personal experience with my parents and my father losing his be job, that's another thing, i didn't like -- i didn't trust the left wing. i didn't like civilians. i think that when you're in the military god bless civilians but really they don't know what's going on. but i really -- and that song just popped into my head because it was about the military and -- the unique thing about that song is that it doesn't blame soldiers. and it traveled so many maces. i mean, i could not believe where that song went. but i work with vietnam veterans against the war. i just love those guys, man. they were so good. i learned so much about the war coming here this summer freaked me out because i just opened up that wound and, man, it was just horrible horrible stuff. but i was telling you earlier today about 15 years ago i attended a veterans for peace conference in san francisco. i live in berkeley, california. and one of the speakers there was phil butler who spent seven years in hanoi hilton. and he came up to me and he said, joe, when we were in hanoi hilton and i had read -- the book about him and his wife that wonderful book called "love and war" is it? about when he was a prisoner and his wife struggled to communicate with him and everything. i knew all about hanoi hilton. and he came over to me and he said, when we were in the compound they used to play hanoi hilton hannah. they would play american music to us to demoralize us, you know. and make us home sick and everything. but every time we heard -- it boosted our morale. and i thought be, those -- french educated vietnamese commanders could probably not understand american humor that we were all going to die to make them feel good. so you know, but americans were unique people. so he said, i never dreamed that i would live long enough to hear you sing that song in person, and we just started crying and hugged each other. i mean, i get so emotional just thinking about it right now. >> and the song you sang at woodstock. >> and i played it at woodstock, yeah. wasn't supposed to play it at woodstock. i mean, it wasn't a big deal but they wanted me to fill in time for the audience because santana band couldn't get there. and i hadn't been playing acoustic music. they said, you've got to save us. you've got to do something. i said, i don't want to do it. they said -- i said, i don't have a guitar. so they grabbed a cheap yamaha guitar and handed it ne. i said, i don't have a guitar strap so they cut a strap and pushed me out there. i sang for about a half hour. nobody knew who the hell i was. they were just talking. woodstock was like a giant family picnic really. people just talking schmoozing and laughing and stuff. and i walked off stage and i said to my partner who was moonlighting there on the staff, i said, can i do --? and the cheer because i mean, i was saving it for the band later on when the band played. and he said, nobody is paying any attention to you. what difference does it make what you do? i said, okay, and i walked out and i yelled, give me an "f." and they all stopped talking and looked at me and yelled "f"! and i thought, oh, my god. here we go. got made into a movie and made any career, enabled me to pay the rent, i'll tell you that. and maybe made some people feel good. i'm so glad. but you know i had a guy tell me his buddy died in nam, bled to death in his arms and the last word he said is we're going to die. i mean, this is serious stuff. when i first learned i was coming to this summit i got so sad. then i got angry. and here i am. [ applause ] >> one of the interesting things about the war is there were pop songs that were written that really didn't do -- say anything about the war itself that weren't meant to be antiwar this or that or anything. and i'm thinking about a song like leaving on a jet plane which then became a song which you and peter paul and mary your number one hit song and i believe in 1970 and that was embraced by a lot of soldiers, simply because of the fact that it was leaving on a jet plane. when you heard that, that this was a popular song over in vietnam, what did you think? >> well, let me respond in this way. over the years with peter paul and mary, when we would perform this song, it was not unusual for a vietnam vet who at that point was significantly older to come over to us and say, you know, that song was my link to home. i know you opposed the war, but it meant so much to me. then they'd break down in tears and we'd hold them and hug them and thank them for their service because they put their lives on the line for us. and so the songs -- that was a link to their home, but when we sang at the v.a. hospital, they wanted not only to hear that, p they wanted to hear "where have all the flowers gone," which is a -- [ applause ] which calls not for the commitment to disagree with somebody with a different point of view it calls for an end to the real evil here, which is the war itself. now, i would have fought in the second world war. i'm not a bottom line pacifist. so i'm not saying -- woody guthrie served in the second world war. but what the music did in the case of leaving on a jet plane, it was -- it certainly was a link. and when somebody would say ♪ i'm leaving on a jet plane ♪ i don't know when i'll be back again ♪ it was very painful. and i still sing it now with that. but the songs that united the people who said, we have to stop the war, we're not trying to -- we do not think this is a legitimate war, as john kerry said. how can you ask somebody to be the last person to die for a war nobody wants? when we would sing those songs, and i would sing the great mandela, which was an anthem of heart about a young man and this is an interesting story. a young man who goes to jail rather than serve in a war. he cannot serve in this war. and then he goes on a hunger strike. and then he dies. and outside the people who are opposing him say, okay, he's dead, we don't have to endure his accusations. we can kill now. we can hate now. we can now end the world. and then it cautions, take your place on the great mandela. the prayer wheel of life as it moves through your brief moment of time. win or lose now, you must choose and if you lose you're only losing your life. now, when i was at the washington cathedral with pete seiger and we he were pointed in four different directions acknowledging the individuals in the war, this was not a body count. these each human life was sacred. indeed on both sides. when i did that, after i sang that song, they played taps and during taps there was the sound of a woman wailing. and that juxtaposition was overwhelming and painful beyond painful. we didn't know what it was about, but she was brought to me. she said, my son was serving in vietnam and when he said, if i am to die there, i want the words to that song engraved on my tombstone. and i did so. i engraved the words to that song. so you have to understand how deeply these songs permeated the culture then unlike today when it's -- the nature of music has become so superficial compared to that era when that was the real heart and soul of our conscience that was being expressed in the way that you just experienced it when joe talked about it and when you sang his song. >> joe, you of course are in the bay area during the mid and late 1960s at a time when america experiences a counter culture, the rise of the hippie. as a matter of fact, next year will be the 50th anniversary of something we called the summer of love much by and large, that counter cultural movement was a social movement. and even by some degree a philosophical movement certainly a musical movement but not so much a political movement except for one band that truly stood out amongst all the other ones, and that was country joe and the fish, which basically i remember reading someone saying it provided the political aspects of what the counter culture should be doing and the way it should be acting. yet sometimes when i look back it seemed like country joe and the fish basically stood out all by itself that the rest of the bands, the grateful dead, credence clear water revival, any great band from that period didn't get so involved politically, not like you did. how come? >> i don't know, bob. coming to the conference i thought, well, nobody knew what to do with us and people don't know what to do with me. i was counting up the vietnam songs i have 22 songs about the vietnam war from welcome home to agent orange to combat. just all kinds of songs and i wanted to tell a story i'm changing the subject. >> you are? >> so country joe and the fish were on the david frost show a long long time ago. and we sang on the david frost show. and charles robb and linda johnson were on that show also because they were engaged to be married. and people wrote in to the david frost show a lot of letters saying those bearded filthy creeps should be sent back to russia and stuff like that. that was about us. none of us had beards, show. but i had this one letter that said, dear mr. frost, why did you have to have that horrible rock band on there singing that horrible song about vietnam when those lovely people linda johnson and charles robb were on there talking about -- i don't think i'm ever going to yaufwat your show again. and i've saved those letters all these years an i thought, how weird life is that here i am at the lbj library thanks to you i hope i haven't disappointed you. >> you didn't answer my questions, but that's okay. >> well, all kid williding asid were let's face it, there were other bands like the mc 5 and the bugs in new york that were doing some pretty radical things musically and politically as well. but in the end, i think too many people get the left or the anti-war movement confused with the hippie movement when oftentimes they went parallel occasionally overlapped. peter, when you are in the midst of this in 1966-67, there was i'm sure a crossroads in your career where you were folk stars and pop stars as well and by committing to a political platform in your music that you were certainly going to alienate a sizeable number perhaps of your audience and people thinking less of you, not buying your records. how did you handle that in terms of your career? how did you endure and say, you know what? we're going to be above this. and we're going to push on. >> well, in the civil rights movement, as i said, you know, that was the first time that we stepped out and became proponents of a point of view that was highly highly controversial although in the north there was not a lot of controversy about it. but when we did sing at these summer montgomery march, that was the end of our selling records in the southern states. and we've been warned by warner brothers that that would happen. but we were as mary would have called us seagers raiders. we were pete seiger's children in a way. he had paved the way to say, if you use your music to express your ethical perspective and you unite that, then you're giving a great gift to yourself and following in the tradition of these songs that many of them certainly came from the labor union movement. but when we were in the antiwar movement itself, anothfor me, ia musician on one hand and you're quite right there was the hippie point of view, which was about the spirit and love and caring, and then there were the consequences that we were dealing with. >> yes. >> my other part of my life was as an organizer. in the antiwar movement and we kept a low profile because there was a nixon enemies list and i organized with a woman by the name of cora wise, a march on washington in '69 that that march coupled with the march against death and cit was calle a celebration of life was attended by 500,000 people. and that is generally credited as the moment where the public sentiment turned against the war. now, in that gathering, my job was to mobilize the performers which included pete seager and mitch -- one of the really diverse kind of music to express that sense. not anti war so much as let us bring peace. and we had john denver singing last night i had the strangest dream and mitch miller and the cast of "hair" and the string quartet from the -- symphony orchestra and earl scruggs from country music and of course peter paul and mary and on and on. and that event was 90% music and yet it is credited -- it followed the march against death where all night in a candlelight procession people with their candles put the name of an american soldier who was killed into a coffin and then those coffins were born to the pentagon. that was the march against death followed by the celebration of life which as i said was -- i mean, that's true that folk music, but other kinds of music i later in '72 organized something at shea stadium where we did have janis joplin, where we did have credence, where we did have -- where we did have -- we had i called and mobilized d talking to them, whether it was paul -- and at madison square garden i organized something with jimi hendrix and with blood sweat and taerears. so there was an involvement but not in the sense of their picking up the banner the way country joe did and writing songs and walking the walk in that particular way. they simply got on stage. but before they did in all cases, as was true in the civil rights movement, we got together and i said, we're not here to knock people out with our songs and perform. we're here to make a statement that will help us to move society to a place where we're going to have greater equity and peace. so whatever you do, that has to be your intention and you need to say some words that let people know that that's where you are standing. and when people have it in their hearts, i don't care if they're singing lemon tree or whatever, if the message is we are going to live in peace, people feel that. and that was true in all of these events. >> you know, for the sake of truth and the reality of it all, the antiwar movement certainly embraced popular music to get its message across, you but if truth be told there was also many, many khriz acountry artis were expressing the other side of the viewpoint of the war. many of us remember the balance add of the green berets, for instance, that came out in her story or song narrative.in her and many in the country world had written songs. it's just that those songs back then in the late 1960s, country music hadn't -- isn't what it is today. it was pretty much here texas, the south, southwest, et cetera. it didn't infiltrate as much up north into cities like berkeley or new york as it does now. but there were other songs. there were other artists taking other positions and using song as the vehicle to express those opinions. >> i have to underscore that that is the case but it was the most minute group that did that whereas categorically with folk music and the beatles and all we are saying is give peace a chance the massive thrust of the music business embraced the civil rights movement, embraced the peace movement. not to say there weren't others who have a different point of view. but we have to, if we're going to be accurate, we have to know that the scale was minute in the country field. >> exactly. i'm conscious of our time, and i want to make sure that since we began with a song and joe that i leave time for you to take us out in song. so i'm going to end it here. thank you for coming. >> thank you for the opportunity to do this. [ applause ] >> i'm going to turn it over to you. >> now, i'm going to stand in front of these. but you can hear me from this microphone too if you like. this is a song that i sing now. my prayer, my hope. and i think linda and lucy and chuck. all of you. okay. it's good. good. my prayer is that by gathering together and expressing what we feel we find that there are ways for us to love each other and embrace those who feel differently from the way we do. i left my capo over there. chalk it up to the years, folks. here it is. i went to vietnam three times, focused around the issue of agent orange and the damage that it did. and i have a lot of footage, and i hope to -- i made an hour piece on, it but i'm going to extend it. the day that i arrived there i went to the friendship house where half of the kids there were -- we knew had the kind of thalidomide disabilities that were almost impossible to endure and see. you know, i don't want to describe it because it's so terrible. and it gets in the blood -- it gets in the genetic system. and it's inherited. and so the -- because after you can't identify if somebody got it, the disability, from agent orange or not because after eight years it's no longer there. and i was singing with these kids and holding these kids with you know, not -- with eyes that -- i can't even say. and i went to the hanoi opera house where i was singing -- it's just like the paris opera house. i was singing a concert. and i was so troubled by what i saw. and realized what we had done, it didn't matter at that moment the kind of discussion about whether or not we -- what -- you know, president carter saying you can come back and -- that's not the issue. we have to love each other and accept each other and let that pain -- and not try and justify our pain by saying we were right or wrong. because if we don't look at what we've done and accept what we did terrible things, notwithstanding whatever was done to us, notwithstanding the pain of our friends and comrades who died or lived in misery and as p.o.w.s. yes. but how do we get beyond that? well, one of the ways we can do it is by having this kind of symposium. and one of the ways is by sing a song together that affirms something that's important no matter what position you took. and this song, when i came to the point of singing this at the hanoi opera house, i said i want to sing this song but i can't. i can't do it until i tell you how i feel. i saw those kids. i saw those kids. i can't -- i have to let you know as one american. i'm not saying things weren't done back and forth. as one american how deeply sorry i am for what we did to your country. 3 million dead. yes, we lost 58,000 men. and more than that committed suicide because of the pain they endured after they came home. and my heart breaks for them. and afterwards, you know what the vietnamese said to me? and they would say this to anybody. they said, you don't have to apologize. we just want to have our country and live in peace. and now we're their major ally and trading partner. how do we build peace? we build it by taking down those walls. ♪ i'd like everybody to sing this song that was a great anthem. and it's not about the soldiers or the protesters. it's about properly putting our commitment into ending war. and particularly not going into war unless it's a just war. and then with the heaviest of hearts. so i'd like you to please stand up. i know for some of you it's difficult to stand up. for me too. it comes with the years. and just join our hands, put our arms around each other all day, and sing. for all of us. and for our children's children. ♪ where have all the flowers gone ♪ ♪ long time passing ♪ where have all the flowers gone ♪ ♪ long time ago ♪ where have all the flowers gone ♪ ♪ young girls have picked them every one ♪ ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ where have all the young girls gone ♪ ♪ where have all the young girls gone ♪ ♪ long time passing ♪ where have all the young girls gone, long time ago ♪ ♪ where have all the young girls gone ♪ ♪ they've gone for young men everyone ♪ ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ and where have all the young men gone ♪ >> let me hear you now. ♪ where have all the young men gone ♪ >> long time. ♪ long time passing ♪ where have all the young men gone ♪ >> long time ago. ♪ long time ago ♪ where have all the young men gone ♪ ♪ they've gone for soldiers, everyone ♪ ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ when will they ever learn >> and very solemnly and prayerfully, for all those who were injured and killed and wounded and maimed. where have all the soldiers gone. many not to the graveyards but to lives of great, great despair and difficulty. where have all the soldiers gonegon gone, with solemnity. ♪ where have all the soldiers gone ♪ ♪ long time passing ♪ where have all the soldiers gone ♪ ♪ long time ago ♪ where have all the soldiers gone ♪ ♪ gone to graveyards, everyone ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ where have all the graveyards gone ♪ ♪ long time passing >> let me hear you. ♪ where have all the graveyards gone ♪ >> long time ago. ♪ long time ago >> where have all the graveyards. ♪ where have all the graveyards gone ♪ gone to flowers, every one ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ when will they ever learn >> when will we ever learn. and we sing -- ♪ when will we ever learn ♪ when will we ever learn >> and then we sing where have all the flowers gone and the irony and the pain of the endless cycle. when will we ever learn? we do know that when we can love each other and say we're sorry and we forgive each other we're taking the right step. i'm so sorry for anything that i did that brought the war or any war unjust war. where have all the flowers gone, together softly. ♪ where have all the flowers gone ♪ ♪ long time passing ♪ where have all the flowers gone ♪ >> long time ago. ♪ long time ago >> where have all the flowers gone. ♪ where have all the flowers gone ♪ ♪ young girls have picked them every one ♪ ♪ when will they ever learn ♪ when will they ever learn >> when will we ever learn. last time. ♪ when will we ever learn ♪ when will we ever learn [ applause ] >> joe macdonald. [ applause ] thursday american history tv on c-span 3 marks the 40th anniversary of the release of the church committee's final report on federal intelligence activities. the senate select committee to study governmental operations held hearings on intelligence activities by the cia, fbi, irs and nsa. that's at 8:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span 3.