Welcome. I run events here at the strand. Before we move on to a discussion of mike duncans new book, a hero of two worlds. Id like to share some history. The strand was founded in 1927 by benjamin bass over at fort avenues book road, stretching from union square to asked replace before after 94 years the strand is the sole survivor now run by Third Generation owner. We want to thank all of you for your support. Without our Loyal Community of book lovers, authors, like mike and alexis, we wouldnt be here today and we are so appreciative of all of you. Mike duncan for a hero of two worlds, the marquee of lafayette in the age of revolution. Mike duncan is one of the most Popular History podcasters in the world and the author of the New York Times bestselling book, the storm for the storm. His Award Winning series remains a legendary landmark in the history of podcasting. Duncans ongoing series, revolutions, explores the great political revolutions that have driven the course of modern history. Joining mike in conversation tonight is alexis co, he is a president ial historian and the New York Times best selling author of, you never forget your first, a biography of George Washington now out on paperback. And a murder in memphis, soon to be a major motion picture. Alexis was a consulting producer on, and appeared in good winds washington series on the history channel, and she regularly appears on msnbc, and cnn. She has contributed to the new yorker, the New York Times, and many others. And so, without further ado, please joining me in welcoming mike and alexis to the stage hello hi hello first of all, congratulations to mike for this new book. Which, i know all of you have picked up because you are here tonight. But, if i can encourage you to overspend, i would recommend buying a second copy, or getting it from your library because one of the most rewarding things that i heard having also written a book on someone who was a part of the American Revolution, is that books on this topic can enable you to talk to family members, and friends, and other people who you have not been able to connect with on american history. I really find it to be a totally enriching i joined a family book recently, and so i am pushing everyone. I want to say to mike, congratulations on the book. But, also, congratulations on finding one of the very few rich and problematic white men. It is nearly impossible, so lets just start out with well done, good choice. God bless you, for having it mostly right. But i think that is the thing, not only did he have it mostly, right but he didnt die for having it mostly right. So, he is not a martyr, and he also have not disappeared into oblivion because he held these beliefs. I do not know what that is like, because i have written, as was reviewed, i have written about a murderer, and i have written about washington who is not an uncomplicated figure when you say hero. So whats that like to study someone who, it is almost like you have to pull back a little bit. Yes, i mean, in the course of doing both the history of rome and revolutions, i have met many, many different kinds of people, right . Julius cesar, augustas, these guys they are great men in the capital g, capital m trademark mode. But also did horrific things. And were able to be personally cruelty even close family members, and addition to committing acts of genocide as they were running around being capital g, capital m, great men. I have written about napoleon. So, one of the things that sort of lowkey drove me to him, is that he seemed more like a good man than a great man, right . People have asked me this before, is he a great man . Have you written a great man biography . I feel like he wrote a good man biography. He never got to that supreme level that even washington, or napoleon got to, or his contemporaries got, to because he did not quite have that really ruthless street and him to be like sociopathic, or narcissistic, or so blind to the damage that he was causing by his actions that he could go out and do the kinds of things that are required to make your mark in history. So he made his mark in history, he is heavily involved in so many really, really important events. I think he was a transformative figure. But, along the way, he was mostly a good person who is trying to make the world he lived in a better place. I think that was one of my thoughts about him going into it, that was more or less confirmed as i went through the details. There is stuff in there where i was like, oh man you should not have done that. But, i think in the main, he comes up very, very well from a detailed accounting of his life. And that is an important distinction. When people go really far into the great man history, it is often because they feel a defensiveness, and that is not something that i ever felt when i was reading this book. When you experienced something that was disappointing, you just delivered it straight. You are not apologizing, what was your relationship like with him over the years . You spent so much time with this person. He is my friend. At this point, you know. I heard once before, before i sat down to write a biography, someone said if you write a biography you either and updating your subject, or loving your subject. That is the two things that happened. I dont know how true that is, but if it is one or the other, i definitely skew on the side of, i basically like spending time with this guy. I have read so much of his correspondents, so much of the things that were said about him by people that were close to him, by people that were far away from him. He himself had a self deprecating sense of humor, he wanted to be taken seriously, but at the same time never took himself too seriously. He was willing to have a little bit of humility, and admit his own mistakes. I think that him having that personality, and him having that character made it very easy to just, describe the good things about him, and describe the bad things about. Him i think honestly, if he read the book that i wrote, the things that i said, this right here i am not sure that you should have done this, this is a sad ending to this story. I feel that myself, because nobody is going to be completely perfect. I have not read let my life mistake free. People would find things that are like, oh, mike really . I think that is what it is. My relationship is, i spent so much time with him for three and a half years that i am not sick of him, i still enjoy reading about him, i still enjoy talking about him, i love talking about this book. There is something that makes him an appealing person that was very present in his life at the time. I think just has continued on throughout the years. I think, they do stay with you. It is like what i imagine it is like to send a child off to college. They are all in the world, you saw them living their lives, they look happy, they are meeting you people, but you do not stop thinking about them. You dont stop even evolving in your thinking about them. That is what is really interesting. Something else i really liked that you, you know, i dont want to speak for you, but i dont think you consciously followed, or try to partake these rules of biography when it comes to these great men. It seems like you just naturally told the story, so you allowed yourself this freedom to engage with them as an actual person. A person in history, but a person nonetheless who was once 18, and no one wants to share their letters and diaries from when they were teens. Right, lafayette as a teenager is great. It is one of my favorite moments. I would love to write a sitcom about lafayette as a teenager. But, continue on. I was saying, we are going to get back to that, hold that thought. I was thinking that you often sort of will use these metaphors and analogies that you do not find in traditional biographies. People notice, right . There were moments like, i called the revolution in washington pregnancy, and then he had to take the baby to term, and he had to make sure that the baby had lived to survive on its own, and that is why they had to serve as president. You gave into that two. Did not just come natural to you, or did you think, it has always been described this, way but it really seems to me to be more accessible, and make more sense in this other way . When i sat down to write it. I did want to not just make it a sort of how would i put this at the time i didnt want to write a social studies report about the lafayette. That is when i was actively avoiding trying to do. Was just deliver a social studies report about lafayette, that did the work, and engage the facts, and analyze his place in history, and then just sort of leave it at that. I have gotten a lot out of biographies that have been written written in that style, when i was trying to do, i did want to give it a little more of a literary quality, and aim for metaphors and aim for ways of describing things, or trying to turn phrases that you would expect to find, like an oval, or in Something Like that. A lot of places i went to her inspiration, there were a lot of things that i was trying to grab. There are these kind of gentlemen biographies that come out of the 19 tens, and the 1920s. I read this one about who was one of the spanish American Revolutionaries, and it was by this guy who was a sometimes adventurer, a big game hunter slash member of parliament, slash navigator who also wrote books on the side, and the way that some of their language was used in those books, it was like i kind of like, this im not going to appropriate your attitudes necessarily but the language and the way that you are using language, i thought was very lively and interesting. I tried to bring that into the book. I think i succeeded for the most part in what i was attempting to do. I dont think it is a social studies report about lafayette. Definitely not. Wouldnt that be fun if that was a requirement of our social studies . So, now obviously we need to hear a little bit about lafayette as a teen i suggest that you write it is called the guillotines of course it is. Dont worry, it exists. Beautiful, beautiful. John quincy adams, having all his advantages neera, trying to secure loans. Give us his story. Lafayette his back story is that hes this rustic noble and a rich orphan who grew up in what is the equivalent of the sticks. He was a lord and lived in the manner house of a small village. But he is from this small village, even today not a particularly populated part of france. He moved to paris and winds up marrying into one of the richest and most powerful families in france. They are basically second only to the bourbon dynasty, the royal family themselves, in terms of wealth and power. And lafayette enters this world and he just doesnt quite fit in. And so he clearly went through a growth spurt where he was physically awkward and he was kind of a bigger guy. He comes into this world and he has to hang with, basically, the rich kid group. This is a tale we are familiar with. Somebody who has come into some rich high school. And hes gone to hang out with the captain of the football and the jocks and head hang out with a head cheerleader and he is really just not able to do it. When he gets drunk, he gets kind of falling down drunk. And he becomes the butt of peoples jokes. And there is definitely a moment in there that is reported from a couple of sources we are he does dance with maria internet and steps on her feet a couple of times. And shes just laughing at him. So he becomes this awkward laughing stock. And this is the super rich, super powerful teenagers they are kind of the same wherever you find them. The meanness that goes along with that, the jives and the gossip and trying to take him down. All of that existed. It is part of what moves him out of that scene, because of how uncomfortable he was. And its very strange that when he finally feels comfortable, he is in some crummy tenth in valley forge, thats where he as a person finally begins to feel comfortable, even though he was probably living in probably the most comfortable place on earth, versailles in the 18th century. And he just didnt like there. Its interesting, you bring up that washington and lafayette were good friends. Lafayette, of course, named one of his sons George Washington and lived with washington for a while. Sometimes, though, they are so different, right . He talked about lafayette losing himself in public. At the same time, they have so much their thoughts on slavery, which i want to get to, they are different. Right. But they do have a lot in common. Found love in their partners. And also felt most at home in these incredibly uncomfortable situations. Yeah. Thats something that i do think is true of both of them. Because by the time they get together, i mean, washington, he does marry into money. And washington grew up there used to being in a rustic setting. He was comfortable trumping through woods and comfortable and during the hardships of nature. All of the stuff that he was up to as a young militia officer, sort of before and after the french and indian war, which we in europe would call the seven yearswar. But they both and lafayette had that as well. Because he grew up trumping around in the woods. And trumping around in the hills and forests. And both of them had a physical endurance and an ability and a willingness and desire to put themselves in difficult circumstances and endure them. So even though washington winds up one of the richest people in the colonies, hes living in this plantation, and if he wanted to, washington could have spent his life enormously pampered. The same is true for a lot of lafayette. He could have been enormously pampered. Neither one of them quite ever wanted that. They wanted to go out on campaign. They preferred to be like, well, its 20 below, but im going to stand here in my coat and endure this. Even though washington did it with incredible stoicism, or at least his projected stoicism, and lafayette was never quite able to project that same level of stoicism, he still enjoyed being able to prove he can do all of the stuff. He maybe could not keep up guzzling wine with french aristocrats. But he could act salute lee keep up with a frozen winter in valley forge. And he did not ever complain about it. Thats a true thing about him. I think that he was much more comfortable enduring hardship than he was just sort of kicking around in a life of pleasure, which i think is probably mostly to do with washington as well. At least the things that they kept aiming for always put them in a world of hardship. Absolutely, absolutely. Washington was more i think because they both needed money but lafayette had a bit more of the perks. And washington felt it was denied him. Oh yeah. And so he was invested in his home. And also when your wealth is invested in people, its a whole different story. But before we go there again, another thing they have in common is, you call them a hero, no one is going to totally debate that with washington. Lets say he was a hero. But they are not considered great statesman. They are not considered great thinkers. They are sort of their contribution was to be born during the right time for their particular inclinations. And that they went hard. That sort of what they are known for. I push back against that in my biography of washington because i feel like he is completely ruled by the court of public opinion. Its so important to him during the revolution. Hes actively thinking about setting up america as a country, to enter the scene and look stable. He is inventive. He is a quick thinker. I would argue hes a little better at all that then maybe he would be on the battlefield. Did you think that thats an unfair rap that lafayette gets as well . Yeah. In the sense that, well, you know, lafayette and washington as well were surrounded by some pretty genius level people. Like, is washington an intellect compared to Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson . No. But that does not make George Washington, like, a tree stump, when it comes to his intellectual capacity. I think the same is true for lafayette. When you talk about the people who were running around late 18th century france, which is the this is the enlightenment. These are some world historical geniuses that are operating on a very high intellectual level. And i think it is true that lafayette is not, you know, hanging up there with condor, say. Or with well, maribel was kind of a bleep artist. Maybe not near rebel. I dont think that means then that he was then a dunce or that he constantly made mistakes. Or that he was in over his head i push back against the notion that lafayette was in over his head. Thats something that people say about him. Was he in a situation was where anyone would be in over his head . Yes, he was trying to accomplish something and we will move over to the french revolution now but he is trying to maintain order in revolutionary paris in 1789, when there are very few people who actually could have done that job and not wound up being ejected from the revolution the way that lafayette was. So, i think that lafayette was a very bright guy, unable guy. He was very aware of public symbols. Public perception of him. Of how to present stuff. And lafayette is also underrated. Because he gives the try color, the try color cockade, the uniforms of the National Guard. All these things that then become the permanent symbols of revolution. Lafayette is the one who gives this to everybody. So clearly he knew something was going on. And so, like, the thing that i will finish by saying about this is he doesnt write any great treaties. He doesnt write any great books. But he mostly succeeded at what he was trying to accomplish. And that cannot be said for most of the people he was. Around french person. Some french people are i know i love a period drama. I will [inaudible] oh yeah. I will find something to engage with and find something to enjoy even if i think it is there. But is it a little bit hard that with the popularity of lafayette, also comes Lin Manuel Mirandas conception of him as this kind of lusty frenchman with a jfk, a jfk frenchman . Yeah. Break that down for us. What would you tell us to be wary of . The thing about hamilton, when it came time for us to pitch the biography of lafayette, the fact that hamilton existed, it made it easy for people. The fact that the show existed, that it was such a cultural phenomenon, that it brings these people out into the forefront, that when i would walk around and say, i would say im writing a biography of lafayette, instead of saying, oh, who is that . A lot of them would say, oh, lafayette, hamilton, i love that guy. So that makes me a biographer and still does. And so it isnt over the top exaggeration of what a french teenager would be acting