Want to go any past 2001 because its a i think that there are so many people who have so much sort of living experience about being arrested in these 20 years that it seems silly for a historian to begin to tackle it at this point. So im actually going to be constraining my remarks to that of time and were going to be asking the question of what is it like to be arrested during these times history on arrest is a simple thing, right . It seems like a simple thing. Theres a few necessary elements to making something an arrest. The person making the arrest has to be a representative of the state they must accuse a person of committing an offense against the community. They must move them from place within to a place without the community. After making their arrest. So it seems like a fairly simple process. Yep, we are absolutely fascinated with the scene of the arrest and this suggests that there is something more to the arrest that we want to understand. Headlines about arrests always have grabbed attention. Okay, so i just this these are just several of the the headlines that i came through from the mainly from the 20th century late 19th and 20th century headlines about arrests but there are thousands and thousands of headlines about arrests. And were all familiar with them from our daily newspapers. And just think how many Police Procedurals we watch today seems like even reading about arrests in the newspaper or watching accounts of on Television News how the many different ways we hear about arrests. Thats not enough. We also have to watch dramatic representations of arrests, right we have to i mean, a whole bunch of different, you know, hear music about arrests, rate arrests just seem to be very central to our our culture. And this is theres nothing new about that. These are just three, three, four. Some of these will be familiar to you guys. I think were probably im guessing the thing that was familiar was dragnet. Right. But but basically, it goes all the way back into, you know, the plays and, you know, cheap fiction published in the mid to 19th century. A lot of that was, you know, thema ties the importance of the arrests at actually. One thing thats always struck me is that even if youre very familiar with arrests from from life, like from real life, even if you yourself have been arrested, you still spend a lot time wanting to hear about and read about and watch other people being arrested or fictional accounts, other people being arrested. I think we talked about this a class a lot of people who are incarcerated spent a lot of time consuming, popular cultural accounts of criminal justice system, including a lot of arrests. So the arrest so important in our culture and it has been since our nations even it is both a practical act, an arrest as a practical act. Its the the arrest or the threat. An arrest is one of the most direct concrete, physical ways that a government can try to shape our behavior as citizens. An arrest is also a ritualistic act. Its an act with a sort of, a heavy meaning beyond a practical. Its way that agents of the government can mark what behaviors in, what circumstances by what people are outside of the community and, unacceptable more directly than anything else, the possibility of the arrest has been how the state has controlled the behavior of people within the united states. Our nation was founded with a profound understanding of the central city, of the process of arrest to political system. Four out of ten of the amendments to our constitution in the bill of rights are about the rights of people who are accused of crimes. Right. Including the rights related to when two people have the right to take you. When two people have the right to arrest you, the founders were convinced that who the nation chose to arrest, how they made and executed that decision was one of the most important issues for the health of our country. And yet historians have spent a lot of time exploring the history of the arrest and how to what extent it stays the same and to what extent it changes over time. And when they have done so, they have rarely done so from the perspective of of the people, most immediately involved in the arrest rate that. Actually, we dont know very much about what Police Officers about and how they understood they were doing when they were making arrests. That is, there has been too little work on that question. But we also dont have very much information at all, very much analysis at all about how people who were arrested experienced that moment of arrest, which is both a practical moment and, a moment of ritual, millions of police have clamped millions of on millions of subjects and taken to tens and thousands of jails and yet we know very little about what either Police Officers or those who are on the inside the handcuffs thought and felt during that that moment. Most of us in here agree. I think that sometimes even both today and in history, it has been good, necessary for the police to arrest people, though its to keep that as an open question in our minds to consider what possible alternatives would be. Most of us also agree, though people have sometimes been arrested for the wrong reasons and in in wrong ways and for reasons other than simply protecting other people and their property most of us are aware that policing has often been largely about maintaining social order. What they used to call keeping the peace right as, much as its been about protecting, stopping violent or exploitative behavior. We are aware that often arrests have heightened, have increased in response to social unrest when theres been major strikes labor strikes, particularly earlier in the moments of demand for justice from certain oppressed Minority Groups. Right of largely africanamericans, right in countries, but we know that order is often in the eyes of the beholder. And so policing has sometimes had a political content as well as an anticrime function. And i think thats something that most people would broadly agree with. And i think its that this broader significance of the arrest is why we all find it so fascinating and have to keep on looking at it again and again and again every day. Thousands of arrests are constantly drawing a border around what Authority Figures imagine to be the community revealing who is inside and who is outside of the law or the orderly community who is allowed to participate and who must be removed from view. So lets look now at what what it appears when we observe the border being drawn. So this class is going to approach this question of the arrest and what happens the arrest from the perspective of the arrestee. On another occasion, i will explore the perspective of Police Officers. But here im going to talk about the perspective of the arrestee. Were looking at the arrest from the receiving end. The person whos being arrested. And we can see here three very different moments of arrest. Theyre actually from very different periods of time as well. We see a Violent Arrest at a protest. We see this is a woman being arrested for a street walking sort of a vice arrest. And we see a guy who was arrested for going on a high speed chase misbehaving trying to evade arrest after a night of drinking. Right. He seems to be, you know, you can see that the three people being arrested are being treated in very different ways, having very different kinds of experiences and for a whole bunch of different reasons, policing has evolved in a lot of practical ways. That shaped what arrests looked like and felt like. I will stop. Keep going back there. Here we go. Lets start figuring out what the arrest is by, looking at what it does and what it has. How has the experience of being arrest changed from the from the 1880s where gilfoyle and stiles left less left off. Through 2001 . And how it remain the same . And were going to organize this. I swear that top left hand picture, it almost looks like its a fake group of police you know from the i got for a very reputable source and i think maybe they just look like that. So and but different kinds of police in different eras and were going to ask five different questions were going to go through them in order. Were going to first ask who was likely to be arrested during this period. Second, well ask what were people arrested for . Third, well ask, how were people arrested . Fourth, well ask how much control did have over their arrest . What could they do . Is there any way that they could shape what happened during their arrest at different times . And then finally, well ask, how did people feel about being arrested . Now, that fifth one is one that we will sort of fail . Answer right. We actually will. Well never quite get to that. But thats actually the question i most want to get it right. So what i want to think if you guys you guys know that in this class we largely do discussion, right . Were largely all about getting through active discussion. And so i want you to kind of think about this as a really, really long discussion question. Okay. And what going to try to do is talk through some of the things that happened, some the ways of being address change that stayed the same over the century with the goal coming to the end and working together to think through how people must experienced arrest during these times. The reason that we have to come through it through this indirect way, its really hard to get evidence about how people experienced arrest right. People didnt tend to write it down right where they did write down their experience of arrest. People didnt tend to keep it right. They werent kept in nice archives. Maybe the writings of more elite people might be kept right. And so we dont have very many written records of what arrests were like and. Even when you start interviewing people, as ive been doing recently, we start interviewing people about being arrested one thing that i really noticed that they tend to not tell you what it felt like to be arrested even when you keep on asking them. And it took me a long time to try to figure out why that was. And then suddenly i have taken me that long. Its being arrested is a traumatic experience or not always, but it can be a very traumatic. People do not like to remember it and they do not like to talk about it. So its really hard to get at this question of what it is like to be arrested. Nevertheless, were going to make that today because i think its very important both for understanding people who were arrested and what their experiences were, but also, i think that in understanding the arrest, it tells us a lot about the people who inside the law, what theyre avoiding. Right. And why avoiding it. Right. What theyre afraid of, you know, why they dont over that line to the outside of the law. I think its a really important question. Okay. Okay. So if you were arrested arrested. Trying to remember which way to turn this so that here. There you go. Okay. So first ask who was arrested. Okay. The answer isnt simply immigrants. Theres a whole bunch of different answers. This question. Okay, if you were arrested at time in history, the chances were that you fit pretty specific demographic character mistakes you can predict pretty well any time in history who most likely to be arrested. And some of those you guys probably know some of the demographics through what would be some characteristics of, somebody who would be likely to be arrested for any time in American History and then in the 20th century, just you can just yell it out drunk people. Yeah yeah thats actually thats its almost like you already my lecture and youre up on the next section because we talk all about drunk people but like what about you know, other demographic characteristics . What kinds of people are most likely to be arrested demographically . Hmm. Poor. Yeah, im going to poor people in all people. Minorities. And that is going to change, you know, whether from like were talking about up here to africanamericans being the most overpoliced group and areas. Right. Mexicanamericans. Young boys. Yep. Particularly. Oh, you should put up your hand before. Im im sorry. I think its i was calling like running, but. Yeah. So people who are teenagers, right. Well talk about some of that. And also the most obvious one for prostitution. Im just saying, i think its most often men, right . Men are by far on men and are by far the most likely population to be arrested. And that doesnt change over time. So just to give you some numbers on that, well, one of the most consistent features of people who are arrested through the progressive area to the present is that theyre going to be male, 90 , pretty much almost at any time. You dont get too far from 90 mark of the people who are arrested are going to be male. Okay so you can female rest can, get a little bit higher than 10 . But generally speaking, you have 10 and 1897 you have 10 in in 1989, these these numbers are actually from pittsburgh, but theyre pretty representative of the entire country. But its a pretty steady number throughout American History, 90 of arrests are going to be of men and boys. Okay. Age is going to jump around a little bit more than that, which as some people pointed out, you juveniles, particularly 16, 17 year olds, are going to be very to be arrested at pretty much all times in history rates of very heavily arrested age group arrest. Arrest rates for are going to skip around a little bit more than the really consistent gender arrest rates in. 1897. 20 of all arrests were of people 20 or younger. Thats how they kept those numbers instead of cutting off 18. So a little bit different and. 1956, again, youre going have Something Like 20 of the people are arrested, are going to be in this case, under 18. Right. So you have and this fluctuates down to in the 1950s, is they actually arresting more like 8 , 8 to 8 to 8 to 9 , Something Like that juveniles in the 1950s, 1952, they claimed only two arrested, 3. 7 juveniles. Right. So it does fluctuate as they develop different kinds of policing to deal with juvenile populations. Right. So that is one of the numbers is going to change a little bit more. But generally speaking, juveniles, older juveniles, 16, 17 would be heavily policed and heavily arrested after. That in almost all periods youre going to have 20 year olds and 30, 22, 30 year olds and 30, 40 year olds are going to be very heavily represented among arrested people. Interestingly, there are some periods in which 35 and over is majority of people arrested. But then when you break down, thats actually the fifties and sixties. When you break down those numbers, theyre being for almost all them are being arrested for vagrancy and drunkenness so theyre kind of like, oh, were going to clean the streets. And theyre particularly in some periods targeting older men, not the 35 is very old, but relatively, relatively older men. Okay. So basically youre going to be a young or ish male if. Youre arrested at any time this, isnt going to change that much. One thing that does change is that after the war on drugs starts. You actually a increase in the eighties and nineties on arrests. Right. So you get up to somewhere near 25 of arrested juvenile and thats thats new. Minority status if youre a member of a racial minority you are always often not not always but often particularly likely to be arrested. And thats why we have this slide up here because it seems in some ways this article seems so familiar. This is actually an article which is making the case. Its from 1912 in pittsburgh. And this is actually making the case that, well, immigrants actually are not that criminally inclined. People are misunderstood. And this is making the sort of counter intuitive at the time that actually immigrants arent particularly likely to commit crime, that theyre more likely to be arrested for a nuisance violation and things like that. But the reason that theyre making that case and their that most people assume that immigrants and in this case at this period theyre talking about eastern and southern european immigrants are particularly criminally inclined. The as you get black migration in from the south during the early 20th century and particularly up through world war one and into the twenties, that the eastern and southern europeans are going to be sort of merged into the general wave of whiteness. Right. People stop recognizing them as a Distinct Group and their place is going to be taken by africanamerican migrants southern migrants who are seen as particularly criminal, particularly the ones who have recently come up from the south, are seen as having brought some sort of inherent criminality with them and theyre going to be very likely to be arrested. So for in 1967, nationally, African American arrests are about five times the rate of white arrests. Okay. And thats going all the way back. To 1967. And that does sort of over were very familiar with that story of overincarceration. But also true in terms of arrests. So, for instance, in pittsburgh, in 1989, 54 of arrests were of nonwhite, which is going to be in pittsburgh, very largely africanamerican, whereas they make up at that time, you know, something around one third of the population. Right. So its a its a very extreme form of. Overrepresentation among the arrested population, quite. A another category in some some that some of you guys brought up was economically marginal. And again, this is something which has a very long so in 1897, if you go look at the Police Records from pittsburgh, their Police Annual reports from 97, they do a very good job writing down all these characteristics of all the people they have arrested that year. And its interesting to note that on the long list of people arrested, 58 of the people they arrested their occupation as laborer. As laborer. So. 58 give their occupation as labor. When you add the other most frequent, which are no clerks write and and this is going to look a little complicated but the other really common one is housekeepers write about see because women are going to call themselves housekeeper. Right. So thats basically all women. Thats the 10 of women coming in are almost not all women. But a lot of the women can be calling themselves housekeepers. But you add in those categories, youre at Something Like 80 of all people who are arrested are from these lowest populations socioeconomic populations in 1897. And again, thats something which really isnt going to change dramatically over time. Theres obviously some exceptions. Right . Theres all you know, theres a list of hundreds of occupations in which people were arrested in pittsburgh. Right. But definitely the huge numbers are coming with the laborers, the clerks, no occupation of. Okay. In 1967, nationally. 24 of everyone who was arrested was laborer right at a time. Only 5 of the population was on the census as laborers, right. So again, thats going to be the very lowest category of people who are sort of unskilled workers, who are working with their theyre using their their their strength, you know, to their day to day living without having a particular training. Okay. So thats going to be over time. Theres really almost no variance in that. So economically marginal. Another important characteristic, people who are going to be arrested is that theyre going to be members of a non in many members of a group thats deemed non nonconforming or threatening. Right. And group could be a group with a political orientation. Right. So it could be for instance or a lot of periods in time which. Communists were very heavily overpoliced and subject to arrest communist hippies. Right. You know, if you want to go back into the sixties and 6070s, people who, you know, dress like or were out there doing hippie things were very likely to be arrested with their guitars. And, you know, but theyre, you know, theyre but they were very likely to be arrested, you know, at this time of. Right. People who identified anarchists were often subject, subject to arrest just. Or black panthers. Right. When you go later on, you know, theyre being arrested in part because theyre a member of a Minority Group, but theyre going to be arrested much rates than other members of the black population because theyre the member of this sort of adversarial group on this deemed threatening or menacing gay americans. Right. Gay americans who are often seen, particularly, you know, through much of the 20th century, were widely seen as sort a dangerous group of people, a sort of a danger to our nation, potentially subversive. Right. Were very, very heavily overpoliced, very, very likely to be arrested. Okay. So if youre arrested you usually were a member of some of these different kinds population. And the thing is and how this comes back to our question of how did you experience your arrest is that not only were you member of this population, but you also were well aware that these popular were overpoliced and subject to, you know, subject to disproportionate arrest. This is all over the newspapers you know, theres nothing new to this realization that theres over by race or by politics, anything like that. Newspapers were always well aware of it. And people complained about it constantly. So you were a member of one of these groups and you were arrested at the moment of your arrest, you would have carried that with you. You would have been aware that there was broader context in which your arrest was taking place. And i assume that that would have shaped how you experienced your arrest. So were going to go now to the second question, which is why were you arrested . So what were people arrested for on historically . And this is actually something that surprised me a little bit. So apparently, it didnt surprise tommy because, you know, he knew very well the people who were arrested were almost all arrested for the vast majority of people, arrests are actually arrested for order charges. Right. Rather than for, you know, public order problems such as drunkenness. Right. Rather than criminal more formal criminal charges charges. So the simple answer to that, you might if you hadnt thought about too much when you ask. Well, what are people arrested for . What you might say as well are arrested because they committed crime. And when you commit a crime, you you are arrested for it. But actually, that doesnt take into a lot of things that stand between committing a crime and being arrested right. And one of them is most people in, all times in American History, most people have crimes and Violent Crimes or property crimes have not been arrested. Right weve never had a clearance rate of crimes nationally. The united states, that was anything 50 rate. So when you commit a crime, even a Violent Crime or a property crime which even those crimes are reported, which many crimes arent. The clearance rate is always, you know, 30 at best rate, 20 wherever you are. Right. So when you do commit a crime, chances are that youre not going to be arrested for that particular crime. Right. And thats even assuming this clearance rates assume that the person is ends up being assigned the crime was actually the person who did the crime right. So assuming that sometimes thats not the case, that makes the clearance rate even lower. Right. So for that reason, it cant be the case. Youre a person who is arrested, even if you had committed a crime, you wouldnt see the arrest necessarily as a necessary natural of that crime because usually when people commit that crime in almost every case, they dont get right. So its a little more complicated than saying i did the crime. Now i expect arrest. You actually cant quite expect arrest. So in pittsburgh in 1978, a 33. 5 of cases were cleared. That was a pretty good. The fbi now says a 20. 5 clearance rate. Oh, im sorry, 2000. The fbi reported a 20. 5 clearance rate nationally nationally, only 16. 7 of property crimes are cleared. Right. Theres actually i was looking at the rates of clearance in the 1970s for car theft. And it made me want go back into the 1970s, steal cars because it was like the rate of clearance was like 4 or 5 or something. I was like, nobody ever gets arrested for stealing a car in the city of pittsburgh . Right. It happened all the time. And they didnt ever seem to be able to to solve it so that there was this kind of mushy relationship between being committing a crime and being much more mushy than people appreciate. Most arrests have actually been for things that were least likely to think of as crimes right or as that when think of crimes, the last things that tend to come. The president s crime commission, however, noted in 1967, theres a big national study, and thats why i keep on coming back to it. But they note in 1967, nearly 45 of all arrests are for crimes without victims or crimes against the public. And. In 1982, to scholars named George Kelling and james q, wilson had the very creative idea of broken policing, right . Which basically, if you want to stop crime, really need to arrest people for order violations. Right. But the fact is, throughout the 20th century, thats abso lutely been what the police have been doing. The police have been spending most of their time most of their arresting time, most arresting energy, arresting people for order violations. Right. And im going to talk a little bit that and show you some numbers here. So when people are arrested, if you were arrested in the 19th century, it was its extreme likely that your arrest was for an order violation. Okay. So here is, 1896, pittsburgh, who gets for what . 1 of people who get arrested in pittsburgh in 1896 are arrested for Violent Crimes. Just like 2 are arrested for order crimes. Okay. You have percent who are arrested for and theres other which dont even know what that is you have 10 who are arrested for moral crimes. And this that would be what would that be moral crimes at this time, be not even rape pretty nonViolent Crimes. Yeah, it would be a that would be moral crimes be prostitution gambling and a sodomy right. You know 1896. Yeah. So itd be like all sorts of any sort of sexual crime, victimless sort of sexual crime or or, you know, gambling kind of, you know, lewd behavior would fit into their adultery. You know, any sort of, you know, a violation of the pretty rigid sex of the day would have been a moral crime, just 10 . But rest of the crimes, almost 86, were prison time when when the Police Officer claps handcuffs on somebody there they are clasping handcuffs on somebody for an order crime thats going to be mainly drunkenness or its going be drunkenness or its going to be a disorderly behaviour. Right. I went ahead and put assault, simple assault in with Violent Crimes, right, but actually simple assault quite, you know, arguably would also fit into an order crime rate. So basically the police are spending most of their time getting loud. Out of control. You know, people are or vagrancy. Vagrancy is in that category. People who dont seem to belong. Right. And later on im going to put we get to later possession but drunken driving in that even though its dangerous right it is so far right a victimless crime theyre putting people who are violating the public order are mainly with policing. Okay. When you get up to 1956, you the numbers have changed. You actually have relatively more attention to, you know, kind of the bread and butter crimes, right . The crimes that we think of when we think of what police are doing, arresting people for you actually have 11 of arrests are for property crimes. You know, 5 of arrests are for Violent Crimes. You still have this other category which im not quite sure how to how to process and you have moral crimes have actually shrunk a little bit during that period there are still substantial 68 of your arrests still going to be for your crimes against the public order. And then if go up, one more click. In 1989, same city. You actually see it has changed pretty substantially right. But you still have order crimes. The the lions of what people are being arrested for thats decreased little bit anybody want to have a theory on why that might have decreased. You you guys we want to have a theory. Why might it have gone down and this is this is a theory. But im thinking i think is stop and frisk. I think that policing got more broad right around this time in the ways which youre going to be interacting with population. Right so instead of arresting somebody, if theyre trying to interact with somebody on the street right. Instead of arresting them for Something Like disorderly rate or vagrancy, now theyre not allowed to arrest them for because of some laws are passed in the sixties and seventies. Instead of that, theyre actually going to be stopping and having that sort of interaction on the street, right. So thats one way that that changes. Okay. So the vast bulk of these arrests are going to be are going to evolve officer discretion, right . In order arrests. Arrests that an officer isnt given a warrant for. Right. An officer observes something on the street which appears to him to be disorder, him or her in the later periods. Right. To be a disorderly thing. And that officer is going to decide that keeping the peace or keeping the public order demands removing that person from society. But thats very much about officer discretion that if officers had discretion that was very different than, what the people who are paying them wanted right. They would have to, you know, shift over time. Right. So this is a pretty steady officer, you know, police everywhere are doing this, you know, pretty consistently over the century. Right. So we cant you we have to imagine that this is what the public looking for in their policing. The officer has some choice in who going to arrest, but presumably who they arrest for these these order crimes is going to reflect what the people who are paying them want for them to be doing right, rather than just, you know, a whole bunch of road officers all the time. Right. Okay. Yeah. So what . That. What . That might do with how you would feel about being arrested is it might make you feel there was a real disjuncture between anything that you might have done and the fact you were being arrested. Right. That there was that would that wouldnt be such a simple relationship to you even at the time, because you would be aware that there was a lot of discretion going on and lot of slippage, right. Between doing a thing and being arrested for a thing right. Okay. So lets talk little bit now about some of the technicalities. Talk about how were people arrested, what did they arrest . When we try to get it, what would arrest would feel like we to start thinking about what did what kind of technology was brought to bear . You know, what how did how did the officer behave . What kind of rules were they following . And of course, from the very beginning of this period, the progressive era, many officers were with revolvers, right. With what they called police or automatic. Later on, youre going to get up to colts and smith and wesson. Smith and wesson weapons like in this 1960 catalog. But officers were not required in progressive era in many is going to vary from place to place but theyre not required to have sidearms sometimes they have only their batons right and they often use their police batons. Police batons are really important of how theyre going to to control people. Right. But officers are allowed this period to have sidearms. There actually were debates back in the. Middle of the 19th century about whether police should be allowed to have sidearms and there was actually some really i almost included it here, but it was going back too far but some were like, you know, we dont trust police. If they had if they had, you know, what would they do . You know, who would they be shooting at . Like, none of us would be safe. So theres in these sort of major newspapers, there, this kind of question about how carefully are we selecting our police in the mid19th century, when is largely geopolitical or, you know, patronage position and whether it should be armed, but by the progressive era and all the way through the 20th century, police had the right to carry arms and often were required carry arms in addition to their nightsticks. So theyre going to be armed. And there is going to be a steady complaint in newspapers in all periods. Right about the potential some officers using Police Brutality, Police Brutality. If you go and search through the newspapers, not something that people start complaining about in 1960s and 1970s, something people are complaining about all the way through, you know, constantly all the way through the 20th century. Its a staple of newspaper articles. Right. I have a quotation here from. A letter to the editor. And i found it. It was written by retired Police Officer. So in the early 1970s and i thought it was really because its written by retired Police Officer and the the place i found it was in the Pittsburgh Police history archives, which means that the historians decided to keep it, the people who are themselves retired police, who have a little group that, you know, saves up things, you know, they decide keep this letter. So it had a certain endorsement think you know from policemen and what this letter said was it was responding to the charge that Police Brutality in the seventies was often brought against africanamericans. Right. And it says among so many Police Officers of many races and national origins, there are some who are hot tempered, bad mannered or even brutal. But let me say from experience that the victims of their volatile temperament when aroused were white as well as colored. Right . So there was like a general understanding, you that people everybody would, you know admit to right. That there was sometimes a problem and sometimes very serious problem with Police Brutality. So when you were arrested, you would also be aware of that potential. And this is disturbing but im going to share it anyway. You know, but basically you go and look through i did look through a newspaper a database. I look through the newspapers dot com database and, you know, which has a lot of 19th century and and through the 20th Century Newspapers up to up to the present but i just sir i just did a keyword search first for the phrase after i came across it several times for the phrase killed resisting arrest, write killed resisting arrest. I search that phrase and i got 98,699 hits and now that doesnt necessarily mean theres problems with searches. And sometimes the words a little off and things like that. Right. And you know, so, you know, take it for what its worth. But i had to sit down for a minute and kind of think about that. And they werent particularly clustered. And also word. Right, is going to be used in the newspaper. Right. You know, into the not by the 1980s. No reason using in a newspaper so but its just huge amounts of people black People Killed resisting arrest. Now all People Killed, resisting arrest were not black and actually threw up some extra some of those things up here which were white people who were killed resisting arrest or in this a mexican person who was killed resisting arrest. Right. But there was always this potential when youre arrested for violence and for lethal violence, particularly that you had to had to be of. That, how would they transport you . Okay. Part of arresting you is getting you get you in those cuffs. Right. But of arresting you is getting back to the station right where you be put in a jail cell. Okay, this is this is something which actually did change over time and change it meant to be policed. Right. And one thing that happened was that in the at the very first part of the year, were talking about during the progressive era police. Officers were mainly on foot. They were mainly on foot. And so if they arrested someone, they would actually have to spend the rest of their shift walking them back to the police station. Right. If they would walk with them, walking them back to the police station. Right. And getting them booked in and getting back and their whole beat would be on policed right during the time that they were going on that long and that long trek, it was even worse if people would not agree to go with them, you know, and walk along with them on that, and they would have to things like carry or they do things like carry people that had rusted wheelbarrows, right . A eventually around close to the beginning of here, were talking about around 1890, most major municipalities acquired patrol wagons. So that meant that if they could get word back to the station, they could send out the stations wagon to come out and pick up the person theyd arrested and bring them. But again its a long period of time and that Police Officer has to keep the person subdued, like during period of time. Theres just a lot of wiggle room in there for things to happen during the arrest. Okay. So it becomes actually its actually very hard and Police Officers cant communicate with each other, right . They cant call to each other for help. So so during arrest, if they need backup or something, there is no backup, right . You have to call it community. To back you up if theyre willing to do that during this period. Now, they also start getting call boxes. Right, which are stationary call boxes. They also that. Around yeah. Around 1890 they start acquiring call boxes that can communicate back to the station which that that process easier but its still a long wait its not until the 1930s that they start getting a cars and these cars that same time are equipped with Police Radios and that makes it a lot easier for them to actually arrest people and quickly subdue them, put into a car and bring them back to the station. However, Police Radios and cars are expensive, so some municipalities actually dont even get them until the 1950s. Right. So for a long time, you up to the middle of the century, its actually very difficult sometimes to arrest people. Where people when youre arrested, likely give you respect you treat with respect. You know, we dont again, we have limited information about. But i do have one thing that really struck me, which is when i was looking back through the Police History association records. In 1968, the commander of the Pittsburgh Police issued statement on courtesy that he circulated to officers about how you have to treat people in the general public and in the statement of he says Members Police bureau so treat ill the public their associates and superior officers with respect and courtesy they shall be quiet civil and orderly all times they shall avoid the use, profane or abusive language. They shall control their tempers and exercise discretion in in the performance of their duties. They must use maam or sir if the names are not known and mr. Or mrs. If surnames are known, they are never allowed to call somebodys kid boy. And then theres a list of words that they cannot use. Its a list, ten or 12 words that i will not share with you right now. Right, but. But it really is words that i had to look up and figure out, actually, in some cases. But, you know, theyre actually saying 68. You guys have to stop using some of these really abusive language. Tells you a lot about what happened right before they tried to institute those reforms. 1968. Okay. Did you have rights right after, 1966, youre going to be read your miranda rights, right . And thats going to be one huge change in the sort of architecture, the structure of the arrests. Okay. Coming now to, the. Oh, im going to show you now. Sorry, i didnt show you the different modes of arrest, but here we have an early kind of on foot of a tramp with with a police dog, which they have all the way through here. Theyre arresting a striker. I didnt talk about horses, but they did horses through road. They do. Right. But they were available, obviously before you had the cars, not so much to transport people, but to suppress to people and then here is a sort of early patrol car was actually a state Highway Patrol car but you get the idea and heres a police talking into his police radio very iconic. Okay. What control do people have their arrest . What could you have done if youre being arrest . Being arrested during the 20th century, there are a couple of ways that you could have control, depending on who you were and what your situation was during your arrest arrest. First of all, and this is going to be particularly true in this earlier part of the century, right, that you have control by your the importance of your cooperating right. If its really hard to arrest you and really hard to get you to the station, they really value your willingness to, be willing to walk right with them. Instead. And i have a in 1901 newspaper story, which is kind of funny about a guy whos being. 19 one, Harry Baldwin of media, pennsylvania, kicked out of was kicked out of a music venue for Disorderly Conduct to. Officers undertook to take them to the police headquarters. Baldwin, however, had decided objections and announced that he would die first. Baldwin fought desperately, grabbing both antagonists and falling with them every hitching post and telegraph pole was a friend to him as he clung to them tenaciously, the officers finally became exhausted and had to hold him down and to help arrive. Ultimately, six men were necessary to carry him to the police, giving him the frog march which was carrying upside down with like holding onto his limbs and carrying him upside down. Thats from 1901. So you had some control by your willingness to acquiesce, to arrest. So, for instance, when you read about arrest in this period, people will say things like, okay, you can arrest me, but i have to go tell my mom im being arrested. Shes over at the next house. Or like i have to go upstairs and trade coats with my friend. So i have the coat that i want when im arrested, right . You know, things like that. So you actually had a little bit of wiggle because your compliance was important to them from a practical viewpoint, you also had say you cant arrest, youre going to have to go get more people, right . Theres theres newspaper like that were just like, im sorry, youre just one guy and i dont think you can do it. And so there was a lot more with police not so able to communicate with each other. There was a lot more of that kind of objection. Okay. What other kind of control could you exert . One thing that you had was that a lot people throughout this period were skeptical of Police Techniques in arresting and or were sort of skeptical of the police arrest. And so you actually frequent, nightly and this is going to be again from the very beginning of this period to to its end, youre going to have a lot of Community Resistance to arrests, and particularly where police are not so connected with one another that can be decisive. Theres an 1888 newspaper article from, monongahela, pennsylvania says, quote, the way to look at it and the way to look at and the lesson to learn from it is people who offend must expect to suffer. Its a common thing, resist, arrest and to laugh at constables says. But public sentiment must be turned the other way. So here is this newspaper sort of chastising people to stop just laughing at the Police Officers and trying to help people who are being arrested right. So one thing you had in your corner, if youre being is that you could try to mobilize these people around you. And particularly in these earlier periods, you try to mobilize people around you to help you to resist arrest as a common thing to happen and this is also something that doesnt happen as soon as i would have expected you guys just read a john edgar weidmans book. Right. And in that book, one of the scenes that i find most powerful, his book, brothers and keepers, is that is written by his brother robbie farooq, robert weidman. And he says, quote, in the summer of 68, we fought the cops in the streets. I mean sure enough punch out fighting like those wild west movies and do everyone at home would up on homeward avenue, which is an africanamerican neighborhood. And pittsburgh was doing with the cops. Funny thing was, it was just fighting. There was no shooting, nothing like that. Somebody must have put the word out from downtown. You can whip their heads, but dont be shooting any of them right. And so you actually had and i started to i was trying to figure out how unusual that was that and hes making this claim that the police were sort of constantly fighting people in the community. So i was looking through newspaper every couple weeks in the pittsburgh newspapers. They have a story of what they call the the term you have to search for is the melee search for a melee. So every of weeks somebody is being arrested and Community Members come out like fight with the police to, you know, to to their being arrested people throwing bottles, police cars, you know, people throw rocks, police cars and is the melee right . Is sort of common thing and when youre arrested, you can also be charged, you know, incite it. Right. And so you are incitement to riot. Its a very charge. Right. And so if youre arrested if you try to incite people around you to riot. That is an Additional Charge for you as well. But its a its a frequently used Additional Charge because it was a very, very common common thing to do, particularly in the black communities and particularly war protesters. Right. Who are also being very heavily policed and gay populations who are also being very heavily policed. Right. So a whole bunch of different groups try to rally people around them. Right, in order to to resist. So you had that kind of you had potentially that kind of. A option if you wanted to resist, or you could also evoke your allies on the outside. So, for instance, youre being arrested. You you could call on you frequently. Did you know, call on people to help you out and demand that the police give you a good because they know that you can call on these allies. So, for instance the best example of that, we were just talking about this earlier, but wealthy people who are being arrested. Right. The police understand that they would have that many of them have wealthy associates. So when theyre being arrested, they might be treated differently because the police are concerned about how these wealthiest associates or supporters might be able to sort of push back at the conditions of that arrest. If you werent wealthy you know, if you were an African American and you could call the naacp, who was always know fighting this or, you know, various kinds groups, if you were a member of a labor union early in the century. Right. You could call your labor union. And so you could make that claim during the arrest that you have support that that you cant treat you like. Right. Because youre going to have sort of external support to push back against once you had a certain amount of depending on who you were, you might have a certain amount of discretion in the arrest. And that brings to the last part of the last question, which is the one i really care about and the one that the other questions are just sort meant to feed into. Right. And its also question that we are going to fail to answer, but were going to start taking a stab, answering it, because i think its really, really important. And that is how did people feel about being arrested, what was it like at that that you were arrested . And i talked about at the beginning about how hard it was to get at this question people dont like to answer it and also because people often dont care to ask it and dont to record it and dont care to keep it where it has been recorded. But but what i want to do is think about what it feels like to be arrested now now and now ish. Right. And i want to try to triangle like that and sort of push that back into these historical to imagine how it might have been similar to and different from these historical arrests, given the structural differences and similarities that weve been about. I asked you guys and i also did a couple of interviews about i did a couple of interviews of people who were arrested in the 1970s and asked them how it felt to be arrested. Right. And i also asked you guys to write down, you know, how it felt to be arrested. And ive been looking at some of those. And i want to read off some of those answers now or tell you about some of the answers that i got from my interviews to kind of start thinking some of the ways it might feel to be arrested, because theres a real diversity of experience, and maybe thats the first thing and thats the first thing that many of you guys said in your response. Kind of. It depends, right . It depends. Are you being arrested for drunkenness that might feel really different, right, than being arrested for a more serious charge. Right. It feel even trivial, right. Might feel it might not affect you very much. I told you the story last week of the guy who i came across or so i sort of entertained by i guess though it wasnt entertaining because a Police Brutality story right but it was i was entertained by his behavior which was when he was arrested he asked the police to please cuff his hands in the front so we could finish eating his slice of pizza. Right. And that was not something that went down with the police and ended up being a story about Police Brutality. Right. But that that at least when this person arrested in oakland. Right. Probably a hippie right. You know, that he was not impressed by the he was not horrified by the scene of his being arrested. He was he was for engaging further right with the police at that moment. So so it really depends why youre being arrested. Is it for something . Is it for being casual, for something casual. Somebody else in a response it depends on whether youre being arrested for something you did or something didnt do. Right. You know if youre being arrested for something you did you wonder what the penalty is going to be like or whats likely to happen if youre being arrested for something you didnt do. You wonder whats going on right. And how quickly youre going to be able to get out of it. So, you know, so the circumstance of arrest is going to change dramatically. Also, you are when youre arrested is, going to really change how you respond to somebody said in their comment that actually actually being a person who was fairly prosperous and before being arrested in ways could backfire on you because. Then people are so the Police Officer is so horrified, you know or seems to be particularly offended by your your crime in relationship to your status. You know that actually it kind seems like maybe even a fake all along or like, you know, how have you betrayed your class position. I actually the one arrest ive ever witnessed was of a white man in chicago. It was in the 1990s. And when was arrested ive you guys a longer version of that but when he was arrested by two white Police Officers thing they said to him was, you know you are you are an embarrassment to your so you know, the fact that he was white to these racist Police Officers, you know, was particularly offensive to them, you know, that that he wouldnt be sober sober in that case. Okay. But so so theres a whole bunch of different ways in which you can be arrested. A bunch of circumstances. But i want to read some of these answers, some lot of people said when are arrested, one thing you feel is confusion, right . Confusion. Now, that could be related to substance abuse. Right. A lot of people, when theyre arrested, have some substances in their system. And so when youre arrested, you may, well, not be entirely coherent, aware of whats going on around you. But even if youre completely clear of substances, you might still be very confused whats going on, particularly youre not guilty that charge. Right, or you do you dont believe that youre guilty of that charge, that that can come, as a great shock, somebody said it doesnt register whats going on at first. Right. Or if theres a huge period that passes between the time may have committed that crime and the time arrested. I was talking to guy who was arrested after a year, a year after his crime and he was he thought nobody was even looking for him anymore. Right. And then all of a sudden, the police and it was really like was like this interruption of this other life he had been building. It seemed to come out of nowhere. Right. So i think that theres just sort of a lot there can be a lot of confusion. Somebody else said when its your first time being arrested, its easy to be intimidated by the process and especially by the unknown. Its important to keep your cool. Other people describe the process of getting arrested as a disempower, cowering. I have a quote a helpless feeling, as if you have no power or control over your person. Demoralising like being caught doing something your mom told not to do and being caught handed. The shame, guilt and embarrassment is overwhelming in other one said. And i felt like this is a statement disempowering kind of statement to world shrinks before you and your future is changed the moment you are thrown handcuffs all youre free will and rights are gone. Theres another set of rules that apply. Plus youre about to find real fast whos there for . You, right . So being arrested and being sort of pulled out of the community makes you realize, like, who whos going to still be there for you when they try to pull you out of the community . What part of the community is going to cling right. Other people . Another quote that i thought was a powerful was somebody was arrested as a teenager. So being arrested was very scary, humiliating and demoralizing the to the whole and so the whole act of arresting is humiliating, of being arrested, being arrested is humiliating. Whether you deserve it or not people are looking at the spectacle assuming the worst gasping shaking their heads, judging you some even recording which could lead to your arrest becoming viral. The shame of that somebody said it you numb, ashamed dot, dot, dot. But sometimes proud right and i think that that is important because the person whos arrested is not necessarily going to be acknowledging the Proper Authority and moral of the person who is arresting them. Right. They feel like they have a different set of rules that theyve been following and, that the person whos arresting them represents a different set of rules, a different set of values. Right. And therefore, being are standing by against that might be that would that would make them proud in some way. I have a couple more. One being arrested brought about very distinct characteristics, fear and motion. Very few things in life. Right. Very few in life. Had i ever known fear such a tangible or physical way. So much, so that the only way to keep fear from totally me was to forcibly in motion. I must in this line, i must get naked and be inspected. I must continue. Move. Do not let the fear swallow me up or. And i want to talk about that fear. Because somebody else said and one that i think about now, ive been thinking about steady since i since i read it. But remembering the night he was arrested, a laser passing over around his head, a laser point, a red around his head and realizing in retrospect, later that had been obviously a rifle site, you know, and that kind of terror that you have, that realization, i think, is what makes times sort of slow down right. What i do in these moments might be most important things that i ever do, yet im totally constrained in what im able do. Right. So its confusing its sort of terrifying. Its truly dangerous. Thats right. And its a sort of intense, intense feeling, which im not going to give one of my very favorites, which is now being arrested is like facing one of your biggest disappointed ants. Its like getting lowest possible score after studying all semester. Its like throwing vomit all over yourself in front of a girl you like. Its like, wait, its like blacking out while awake. The other thing that arrest means is that you screwed up. Other people got away with it. Most people commit a crime. Theyre not arrested. Right . Even if you arrested or something youve done the sense of arrest of of having been arrested has to make you feel like like you have failed to take care of yourself. Right . To take care of all the things that might happen to antisocial paid. The danger that that youre in. So so being on i think be arrested could also make you feel unlucky right are you mad at yourself right but also you know oppressed besieged you know like the police are unfairly targeting you even if perhaps you have done the very crime for which youre being arrested. It can still, i think that sort of feeling for people. Okay. So anyway, well need to Work Together and well do this this class with this in future classes to gather these sorts of insights from people who were arrested in the last 50 years and triangulate them with what we know about the structures and conditions of arrests in earlier to try to recover an history of the arrest we have to do this both because its important to recover history for its own sake because these lives matter and their experiences matter. And we have to know if we want to understand our nations history, we cant just skip that import and important part of it, but we also have to know, because it tells us a whole lot about america has been is. What must we do to within the law and what happens us if we stray outside of it . What and who do we see as a threat to order . And what does that say . Our idea of order and our identity as a community. So that said, i would love to have a discussion about this if people have questions or thoughts, anything, i guess comments, questions. But what you should do is put your hand up and then they will move the microphone to you. And so i was interested in how you were mentioning clearance rates and i was wondering if theres anything in particular that youre aware of that goes into kind of determining who gets off free, like the percentages of how do we figure out like, you know, robbing cars in pittsburgh in the seventies, like, how do they find those statistics . If youre aware well, you know, you cant no. Part of the problem is you cant know. Who doesnt get caught . You can only know who does get caught. You fast needing to have the list of people who stole cars, who didnt get caught and compared to list who did get caught. And, you know, obviously thats exactly what you cant have. So thats part of it. I mean, the only kind of interesting thing about clearance rates is that clearance rates are much higher for Violent Crimes right than for property crimes, because people can usually identify a person who is a suspect in that. Thats by car thefts. Its so, so difficult to track down. I think theyve actually gotten a lot better with recent technology right. But but yeah, no, it would be fascinating to be able to know who get who gets caught, who doesnt. But to do that, youd have to have like a system of deciding who did you know, who actually did the crime, which we unfortunately have the capacity to have. Yeah. Questions with our questions come and fifth tommy what do you think are differences between a wealthy family to a Family Member being arrested versus poor communities reacting to arrested . Ily mbe yeah, go further as far like you said in pittsburgh and in the bookings made people fight and the police come. I think that the response would be in what the community is versus the reaction of the poorer communities when a Family Member or friends i, i really think its very i thats a good question. Right. I think its very different because i think that at least from my familiarity i think what happens is that in a poorer community and a community which traditionally has high arrest rates rate that Family Members anticipate the possibility of an arrest and its not as shameful they also are very ready to believe that has been some injustice in fact, that their loved one has been arrested. Right. So i think that if youre person whos arrested and you have other Family Members whove been arrested you have neighbors whove been arrested, you know, youre in situation in which arrest is relatively normalized in your you actually end up getting some really good family support, whereas youre in a another kind of community where they see themselves as inside law and that i think often youre ostracized from your community, you get much more cut off the i actually like to hear more from people, at least in my relative limited experience. Thats what id say that actually in some senses, the more you are, if you do end up in prison, right, which you may not. Right. But if you do end up in prison, the more you know, the more prosper you are, the less empathetic your your family is likely to be with with your situation on some level. So, yeah, as far as your question about how do people feel being arrested, i think in your initial arrest, the very first time you ever arrested, if you ever get involved with have an issue with police, you dont know what the process is. So youre you unlearn, dont know. So you dont know what to expect. But then if youre arrested again, maybe youve committed a crime, you know what the process is. You know your circumstances about what your parameters based on where you from and where you at. You know, the suburbs, not like the inner city, the rural areas, and not like the city or suburb. So knowing what expected by the tip limit of law enforcement. So you know how its going to affect, you know, if youre my neighborhood and you make sure your hands visible and you you basically comply with whatever said, otherwise it could be detrimental. But if you were caught somewhere else, you might not know how to navigate that system. Yeah, because it varies much. Yeah. No i think thats a really good point. Yeah you, you had mentioned about increased arrest for like incoming populations into a general area like migrants. I mean like immigrants and minorities. And then look at those people versus in poverty, they have higher risk rates as well. Do you feel like those things kind of go hand in hand . Because most immigrants are more poverty stricken and minorities are more poverty stricken or does one factor outweigh the other . Yeah, i think theyre both important and. I think that. But its definitely the case that if you are, say, a member of Minority Group and you have managed to not be impoverished. Right. You know, if you you you youre economically successful, youre still very likely the police cant necessarily that when they see you on the street. Right. So you might not be to be marked in that way. I think in part it may be that everybody who is say, you know, black or you know, who is hungarian or whatever is sort of marked on the street as poor. And maybe thats being picked up, right . Its possible. But yeah, its true that. Those those overlap. But its also that a member of a Minority Group is not themselves, is also overpoliced for you know, probably because you know and this is true, you know again, you know, kind of through time but the probably because of difficulty in identifying or racial prejudice, right. That. Im wondering if you can comment in your during your research on in terms in the context of, public demonstrations or even protests, what the of a public arrest be throughout history or the role for instance, we know that it may be a preventative to stop something from occurring, but maybe it actually incites a frenzy or stirs up violence. Yeah, and that definitely is something that has been interesting to me, looking through the pittsburgh Police Records is in the 1960s and the early seventies, the late 1960s, basically after 1966, right. Pittsburgh gets really serious about training officers for dealing with demonstrations. Right. And one thing that they do is that they sit there and map out, you know, we were all of this is going to surprise anyone, but they sit there and sort of map out. How is it that you can effectively police a demonstration . Its very different, you know, policing other areas because the people are in solidarity with each other. Right. And theyre more heavily you know, theyre in a higher density, but so they actually have strategies that they start to develop about how to, you know, move in a wedge, you know, and things like that. Those are things were familiar with today and theyre refined them further in the last couple of decades. But you can see that kind of technique and that sort of mapping being done even as early as seven and 68 in pittsburgh. I assume, is happening all over the country. Yeah. So. Do have any more. I had a question about what did you call it, what did you call it, a police. It was like almost like targeting a certain demographic. Oh, stop and frisk. You know, not what im talking about. Talking about you just said what he was overpolicing overpolicing. Yeah. Why is it that you think that they overpoliced the property people rather than overpolicing like the suburbs . And do you that does relates to the amount of people because me personally, i do i feel like it relates to how much the minorities are oppressed. The versus the rich when the rich may become in the same crimes that we are committing but we are the ones that get pulled over. We are the ones thats getting stopped and frisked. They did the same things in the the more upstanding communities they may find, the same things going on. Yeah. Well, so i think part of it is that you have simultaneous, simultaneous overpolicing and under policing, right. Because on the one hand, much more likely to arrested, particularly on an order charge, right. Walking through streets, right of your neighborhood or on a drug charge now. Right. But but at the same time, you know, we this little survey here in class, you know, and talking how many people have been victims of crimes. And i bet i couldnt tell which surveys were from people who are incarcerated, which were from people who were, you know, traditional kent state students, but it did seem like there was an awful lot of victim a lot of people who have suffered a lot of crime, you know, sitting in this very class. Right. So on the one hand, theres a overpolicing very likely to arrest you. On the other hand theres under policing and that less likely to arrest somebody who might have a crime against you now why does that happen i mean thats the you know the 5 million question right. But you know, i personally think that its a larger structure issue rather than something we want to lay at the door of the specific officers. Usually its a question of what orders theyre given. Its a question of what the expectations their superiors have for them when they put them there. Its a question of how many people they assign to those and how well resourced they are. Right. I assume that they get the message over time. You that youre not rewarded. So much for doing this kind of work in this area. Right. Youre expected i know now they often have quotas. They have fill those quotas might be different kinds of arrests that you have to do on your you know during your days work right. And that depending on where you are. I know like in new york city, i was just hearing a story depending on where you are in new york city, you might get very different kind of quota of how many people youre expected to pick up during your shift. Right. So its almost the crimes before the crimes are committed. Yeah. You can you can decide like i cant decide. Would you say that once a smith in western sidearm was introduced into the police force that the increase of killings in resisting arrest was increased immediately . Or would it be shortly thereafter . Oh yeah, thats a thats a good question. And i mean, plenty of people died by being hit in the head with police sticks. Right. You know, so it wasnt like that was. Not a that was not a fatality free kind of situation. I you know, and i wish that i could answer that question. We even dont have good numbers for deaths in police shootings. So its and we certainly dont have good numbers for it. It would be great to do that project. That would be a huge project. But i think it could actually be sort of approximated we could get some of those answers. But i, i dont have them. So im sorry. Yeah, thats a good question though. If i. I feel like if you want find out how people feel with what its like to be arrested you is not something that happens it just for a moment thats just what shows on camera like and everybody is kind of drawn into that so thats what you be kind of getting sucked into looking at and targeting that moment, just the cameras, lights flashing, youre going in the back of the car, the newspapers, but its about what that person feels in that moment. And then being arrested. It isnt really over until. Youre actually out of prison or out of jail. So like, i guess my question to you is, how would you feel if they came in that door right now, arrested you and then told you you had life what would you do . You like . How would you feel . And like that journey through those moments of your emotions. Thats thats how you find out the answer. Thank you. Yeah, no, i think thats true. I if i can say the reason i was focusing on this moment, why i took that approach of the moment and i think youre right. Is im interested in that of like that specific interacts that im interested in. I want the journey of what happens inside your but im also interested in how is that like that scene, the arrest like that very moment, the power thats exchanged. Know what what happens you sort of dramatically between these two people when one of the breaches out and says youre not you cant stay here in this community now going to, you know, take you away. What is that sort of human moment between the two of them . Is one thing i would like to understand as well as understanding the long term outcome and the outcomes to families and communities as well. But thank, i think. Andre normally, in policing systems, theres a red district that shows how the cause and effect happen in the temperament of the law enforcement. Okay, so in a city more crime is just theres just the fact, you know, you got everything going on in the city, whereas those things happen out. But i think really about how it feels about arrested i think still he hit on the head you know unless you been arrested, you dont know exactly what feels like. So you have to go through the motions. And i dont really im sure you dont want to be at risk. I dont care to be arrested. Im absolutely im more certain than ever if i ever had thought maybe it wouldnt be so bad. Ive changed my mind, right . Yeah. So you think letting the body is always intriguing, but no one really wants to feel the film . Yeah. Okay, but when you really do, its really. Its really straining the body and the emotions, you know, as you think about your family, about whats going through, you know, that persons head thats about to arrest you, you know, what familys going to do when youre arrested, when youre not in the home, take care of business. So lot of things happen. So, i mean you feel in the range of emotions, you know, and its not really chaos and confusion for me based on me being arrested to so mean im aware of situation but i understand the unintended consequences that could occur if i dont comply or things get of control. Yeah, no, thats right. Kind of a practical like the practical consequences of arrests are super important, even if youre not traumatized by the drama of the moment or the terror of the moment. Thats right. I think we have time for one more. One more and how about two more . How well do you know they two more . I will do. Tommy and nick. Yes. Believe the part of womens numbers being so low being incarcerated in because theyre smarter committing crimes in order traditional role they played in society back at that point being housekeepers or the home body women. I think theres a bunch of answers that actually. And do you think women tend to be less violent, less physically violent. The men lets just i we can we can we could disagree about that but like but i do think that women also history quickly were much more likely to be in the home and private spaces. And so, for instance, like women for a long time didnt werent likely to be seen as problem drinkers. Right because they were drinking inside the home. So nobody was going to arrest them for public drinking. Right. They could be drinking an awful lot, but theyre drinking inside the home. So theyre not going to come to the attention of the police. And i think thats probably true, actually, even to day. You know, that that women may be more likely to be off the streets and sort of, you know, in private spaces than men thats just its speculation i have. But i think its a combination of a whole bunch thing and its a prejudice. You dont want to arrest a woman because she seems less moved, she seems less threatening, even if she perhaps she has a very fierce, you know, but she might she might appear you to be less threatening because of your preconceptions about about women and men women are smaller in size, generally speaking, you know, and so they might seem less menacing for that reason as well. Right. So yeah. Okay, one more. And thats nick. Oh, okay. John, youre not just thinking whenever you had the pie charts about, different crimes, i like whenever i got to the eighties, i think more Violent Crimes started to become like on the radar. I guess. Do you think thats sort of our americas obsession . Like serial killers starts to, like, blossom or, you know, like people start getting like i dont know. I dont want to say obsessed, but people start like, yeah, being fascinated, like people like jeffrey dahmer, like bundy and, people like that. Do you think that kind of like. Yeah. Has a correlation or . And thats an interesting thats an interesting question. But like i like you know, and actually i do has i mean its i do think that you what happened in the 1980s for real is that violence rates went down. Right. You know, and theyve been going down and and so actually you actually have a much safer people actually are much safer. And i think that when they started to get much safer in reality, they started to sort of focus on these, you know, things like serial killers, you know, true crime stories. It almost is like it sort of was a inverse to their actual level of danger. They started to sort of to i dont know, they wanted to gin up their own fear. I you know, but it is kind of it is a do i do think that theres a correlation between the the sort of decline of real, you know, crime rates and, the increase of. You things like fascination with serial. I think theres Something Like this going on the eighties and nineties yeah thats a really good question. Yeah good. Well thank you guys. So much. Its been a really interesting class. I look forward to seeing you next week. Welcome to our annual symposium, the presidency and Historic Preservation is the topic for this year. These are hosted by the White House Historical association, and this year we have the honor of having our partners, the National Trust for Historic Preservation. My name is stewart mclaurin, and i think i know most of you here in this room