we're in the process. i hope it will succeed.yay i believe clearly that labor is the strongest element. in this format. it should lead it and i hope to qvk-h be able to do it. >> let me ask questions about who you might serve in government with, can you envision going with avigdor q,ñ lieberman? >> let me explain, it's a coalition party. the polls over the weekend gave me a quite nice leap ahead in terms of closing the gap. at the end of it's a coalition's game. you have to see what will be the day after.v/1(ç this is what people don't get. there could be an interesting qñ coalition of parties and leaders who decide to form a coalition, a new coalition, and i hope that# my capability of tying knots, of being able to bring people together, things which i have done also in winning the labor party primaries, as well as understanding the vista, and all partners are possible. the arabs themselves always say gp they don't want to get into h coalition. there may be support from the outside. let me explain to those who do not understand israeli politics. the leader of the opposition, it ain't nothing like being a minority leader here. because we have in my opposition right now, 8 parties. okay? it is a multiparty system. it is not republicans and k ÷÷ democrats. in a multiparty system, today, i have in my opposition, three arab parties. i have a muslim brotherhood party. in the region. so, we have ultra orthodox parties. we need to have them all represented.@kñ i believe since i'm talking to all of them and since i respect the unique structure of israeli society that we can work together. and build a coalition which will be different from the current right-wing coalition. >> let's talk about you and your candidacy. you are obviously a man of accomplishment. you come from a very, very famous family in israel. but you are known as a noncharismatic figure. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. no. there is a certain assumption -- leaders we had in what happened >> there's a certain understanding in israeli c m0 politics, maybe this is just conventional or perceived wisdom. especially from the center or centerleft. burly or gruff and no one would mistake you. >> he's a great guy. q;dom >> talk about the barriers to your success among the voters. i mean, and then we'll talk & 9!t&uq"ásp!or party barriers. >> it is combined, intertwined. the staging of labor the labor is staged right now in the center-left. it should resume its rol séñ . mother party, together with all of the other parties, which i mentioned, because labor has the capability of being so, labor is looking and talking to all of the other members of the political scene in the same eye level. and of course, me. and as for myself, since i do not see having psychological treatment with you -- there is an innate fear within israeli - society of whatever we see and wjauw hear around us. you know what, it's the natural reaction of human beings. my duty and role is to acquire bí- enough trust in all of the polls. people trust me, that is one of my virtues.r they have to be able to trust me. and that is what i am focusing on.91fw >> because security is a threshold. a center or center left candidate, who are your security gurus? who do you look to?xrvb%át(puáq ou're not yourself a general. who do you look to advice on o0dz matters of national security? >> there are wonderful people within the security and defense 8?6í community who are willing to lend a hand or are willing to give from their experience. we have some people within our party. we have people from the outside.pbñ there are very distinguished e,w people./cvb some of them even here. this issue, we have to shatter this premonition -- you know, that we had a party one of the lists that run in the election, either in 2009 or before, only generals, and it did not make a difference. if you ask me, the real issue is socioeconomics. undoubtedly, we will talk about it, breaking the umbilical cord and moving forward with the palestinians and creating very strong security interests of israeli being fully fostered and we give an answer on issues. we must remember the social protests of 2011. the summer of 2011 was a major watershed in israeli history. it is something that i'm always inquisitive about in american politics. all of the sudden, the nation woke up and demanded not security, they demanded social justice, t zu$jrápvr'g social justice, and 5% of the nation's population gathered in a city square one night, demanding justice with no violence. 100 years after the revolution hnñ in russia. all of a sudden, social justice, but in a democratic sense, they did not get that delivered to them and the only party that can deliver to them and the only partner that would be is labor. this is part of the real agenda battle between me and netanyahu. these are not the only issues. >> i want to come to this in a minute. but i do want answer to this o8"stion of who you listen to in israel. >> i will not tell you. >> why not? >> because, some of the people don't want to be exposed. it's legitimate. believe me, i hinted and i said we're talking to many people. and i hope to be able to present a nice group of people who have o3=z devoted their life to the e!)zsy defense of the state of israel who are going to be with me and my part.yb >> i will probably try one more time later when you are tired. >> i'm not going to chicken out. >> that is not the exact expression but you are close.fq you can really, really thrill the people watching on c-span if you tried. >> let's put that aside. the real expression is something which i don't like at all. >> come to this la+ q%=9ñxó y of the labor party, why is the labor party in such a diminished state, where did it go wrong? >> it's not necessarily in a diminished -- >> certainly compared to the founding of the state. >> right now the israeli map is comprised of medium-sized party. the structure has been actually broken to medium, smal parties and remember that there's going to be a new threshold introduced in this election, which is quite big, t viú40"r four mandates. mainly, parties will have to get to crescent only if they get w four mandates. about 3.25%. therefore, there will have to be mergers. there will have to be mergers. as for your question about labor, there are a few processes, undercurrents. first one was, we lost touch with some of what the public really feels is important to them. for a long time. we were members in coalitions of other leaders. and we were kind of erased of our identity i it took us time to recover and we also lost touch with new groups in society -- who are taking the roll and demanding to be a part of it. for example the russian immigration of a million people. we kind offxy"átrááátq)e.2#úx they suhw,? h&abbin and barack, they were turned off.#smñ add to it other groups. the arab population, they gave 96 or 98% to help barack. a young generation took over, coming in and voting. they don't remember the legacy of labor. and add to that, the fact that'venthat even within that young generation, we were viewed as giving up too quickly to the palestinians or the arabs. >> on that subject, it's april of next year and you're the prime minister, you're a big advocate, obviously, the of the two-state solution. i want to know from you, why you think you'll achieve what he failed to achieve and ehud olmert tried to achieve. they tried to make peace with arafat, the second with -- it didn't work. what are you going to do different to get to a two-state solution?ajqz >> i'm not going to any e allusions.l g÷ i'm not willingwújlr to give up. we're not dealing with psychology at all. the fact there's no connection, no discussion, no discourse or no trust between the leaders is, adversed to the ability to reach an agreement. yesterday morning, i had breakfast with jerry adams the leader of the i.r.a.sinn fein. s this is part of it. and nobody's dealing with it.& i speak a lot to him and i said, i said to him, people say even if i negotiate with you, you'll :p!uç never make peace with us and he b laid and he said, i'm sure we can reach an agreement. it depends on building trust. m it depends on pcrz,)h%ñ confidence-building measures. it depends on being innovative and bold. it depends on radiating to people that there's hope. the situation we see right now is so devastating because there's a feeling of lack of hope. there is a despair feeling.u(" religious hatred that is so turning into a religious wall. >> you're a prime minister. what is your settlement policy. >> it's based on the blocs. it's essential for its security. >> when the u.s. administration -- no, no, i want to get this in. what dow you say. clinton. she said, i don't an theoretical questions. because i believe israel, i have always said it. israel should put a plan on the table and move forward and often. and within that umbrella of s movement, there are things that both sides can do. i believe in freezing settlement& ñ( construction outside the blocs as part of confidence-building measures. that israel present and this z$z plabáo4u1 ár'to account most importantly the security measures of the state of israel. >> what if it doesn't work? do you have a plan b? >> you have spoken about the unsustainability of the status quo. >> that is true. >> what is the plan b. qc z >> when we speak plan bs we ]!8l already negate moving on plan a. there are experts here that do ?o not believe in the negotiating process but rather believe in xmxíñ unilateral steps. i think israel, the nation, suffered a certain trauma from xnsrñ unilateral step of pulling out of gaza.lfá÷ we have to attend to that. i was there. we were blamed for pulling out ç vñ by our brothers and sisters from the settlement in gaza. and we said to them, it didn't work out. we have thattic it into account. i do believe however, unequivocally and from the bottom of my heart that since it's a must, it's a must under all circumstances to separate from the palestinians.- that, if it fails, we will have ÷n' to take steps to define our borders in a clearer way. >> that is unilateral withdrawal? >> it depends. there are ways. if you don't negotiate, you can coordinate. even if you -- free settlement construction as i mentioned. you can do steps that say, i gave priority to that area and not the other. but i think it's a mace take that we already assumed that zbch4ñx' it's over. it's part of the tragedy that unfolded in front of our eyes. it is not true. i'm telling you, absolutely, it is possible, absolutely possible, still, to make peace with the palestinians. >> i'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of an israeli x 85c voter, to hear you say that, where if all els fails we are going to have to withdraw. from parts. >> i did not say that. >> well, what are you saying? >> i said we would have to smartly whether legislation ort% others in arranging the fact that most israelis will be in certain ha÷areas, but amyi'm not willing to go into anything. >> let turn then, and agaix# will try in a minute. lru jut) 3jpñ affairs, an issue that came up eatñ on this stage an hour ago, relations between the united states and israel.=) secretary clinton made it seem ój8÷ there's a occasional ripples in the calm surface of these waters.puygp downplayed personal tension between the president and your prime minister. you have spoken about this, however, as a crisis. can you define why you this is more of a crisis than hillary clinton says it?í0ryz >> first let me say, i'm not here to start personally criticizing the prime minister v outside of israel. my aim is to convince the peopleñ of israel. that's one thing. there are rules of the game that we attend to, however, i think that the policies of the israeli government has led us to a situation -- sorry -- has led us to a situation of a total laem0k of trust.; a total lack of trust between the administrations and the now, it's essential, it's essential to have trust between the leaders, not only the professionals, not only the 4z government level, but the ja leaders, it's a fact. it's a fact that there is no trust at all between the president and the prime minister. and we will have to attend to it. (ñ to mend those friendships. in israel's history throughout, the ability to have direct /4p#=9qq1"%u5e)$(jju between the top leaders was g8lz essential in critical moments. to israel's well-being as well as to regional peace and safety. >> do yout psq)ican side or the israeli side. >> i'm not in the blame game.t?ñ i'm telling the israeli people @ a that will arb)c)á policies that we have will have to connect. and there are so mistakes that netanyahu has done that we will nuq8÷ correct. the relationship with the united8 ç# states, even if we argue we should do it in closed room. we know how to argue. even if we debate. there's the issue of trust. telling each side what is the problem. what is my interest. what is your interest. let's try to get together and ñ=j agree. because the united states is je:bybjtu really still the major úatz superpower of the world. because the united states is not pull out the middle east. and because the united states is ñ our closest ally.8g] it's so clear. >> i have heard people on the right in israel about replacing v europe for example, with a china/india policy. you don't think israel can pivot east? >> there's nothing to compare. with all due respect to these important counties. important countries. we look at the record of united nations, the u.n. security council. we have only real one trustworthy ally, which we really share affection and trust with on so many levels and there's nothing to replace that. really share afoex and trust with on so many levels, and > let me ask you -- >> it also has an economic bearing on the israeli economy. >> i have to step back and ask a basic question at this moment. why is israel moving towards election right now? dú (áujáq,plain what happened? >> the situation is like a -- some sort of a theater act, q whereby each side looked the 2#& other side for a situation where they couldn't not on together and i%c,'k that part of it has to do with the ill decisions of benjamin netanyahu who decided he could pull this one again. and if you ask me, the israeli question, is it willing to have another term of benjamin netanyahu? the it will be the key question in this selection, in addition you have discussed, it will reflect the following. will israel skid dangerously into becoming a more extreme state in itsf2x behavioral mode as a government.tr or will israel correct itself into the direction of the -- well-positioned policies that gotkapñ together with the original wk envisionment of -- trying to move toward peace and fxq social justice, alj q:)h the united states, economic recovery and most importantly xw[bç strengthening and fosting our economic government development. >> where do you rank the iran !áf÷w threat in[ obviousl urrent prime minister believes that it poses a threat? do you believe that is the most important threat? >> i believe it's a very, very important threat. >> what is the most -- >> it is definitely an important threat. it's important threat that has to be dealt with. and may i say the following? i think the negotiation pror-bd is important. i think the united states and _9 its allies should get the best deal possible.#n'qz i think we should enable08?i it to get the best deal possible i think we shoulden able it to but shouldn't rule anything off the table. >> do you trust the obama administration to get a deal? >> i trust the obama administration to get a good deal. we hope the best deal possible.:x)= that means a lot of elements. most importantly, the fact that we have to agree on a breakout f@ time that will give ample warning to everybody, if the zpx naive.+>z we still live in dangerous and . uç compl the policyies are clear to us. we've been discussing them here for years and we shouldn't be naive to believe that all is well. there should be strict supervision, strict monitoring and deaf forring.c >> if you had been prime g49 f1 o minister this past summer, how would you have handled the hamas threat? >> first of all, i think we should have a combination of diplomacy.mk part of the problem is we;w3ñ entered that crisis with less international credit we entered that crisis with less in our hand. by the second week, the international community started showing nerves in terms of what's going on in gaza. because of the pictures that gy90$e out of gaza had a bearing ged and influence. one has to see heavily deteriorated into that conflict./ 4 and how to[: make sure we don't deteriorate again. part of it has8 bending a strong regional coalition that brings in the palestinian authority into gaza that gives hope to the people of gazazc.q$ @r(t&háhp &hc% gaza, that opens up gaza under as a basis for a process with ñ this so far, has been missed.ñmsñ >> palestine is divided into two warg factions. you seem to have more faith than the average iz ray legal?á) the@ >> because they lead a moderate palestinian body. let's be frank about it. we love to judge everybody else's political systems.g$xó i'm not judgmental. if i have to make a decision between hamas and the "asc palestinian authority. i believe in working with the u)dfx7tu÷ palestinian authority. it is feasible. it's working. look at the summer.k following the abduction of the three boys, which was a huge tragedy for the israelis and for everybody, the palestinian's authority functioned properly, ,zñ they coordinated with us efforts to find their whereabouts, they handled the situation in calming it down despite the fact that there were many israeli operations÷thxz!%uáyé1 then came protective edge in gaza. everybody loves to turn them as weak, so far they have survived five israeli prime ministers to the best of my recollection.d%yp8$t >> are you worried about the future of israeli democracy? society is moving into if we don't correct.pt a real question of a distinguished representative uár he believes in a deal that the world will accept unilateral┘x steps of israel in this direction. he doesn't answer the question palestinians who will become israelis? take the issue of jerusalem. the recent terror attacks, grew 1p(+) with an israeli i.d. card so does it meanú. we will include another 100,000 who have no loyalty to the state in the sense that they won't feel part of israel but rather under occupation? there is no other choice. despite all the fears. we will have to get over those fears. we will have to try again. otherwise, the direction israeli society is moving tov bleak and that'se pá we are doing in order to correct it and i'm worried about undercurríii that are trying to limit and contain and curtail the beautifulpk(j h of israeli democracy. the fact that in our parliament, there is such a wide range of views, freebd our supreme court. to me it's holy and i'll do whatever i can with my)3fhg colleagues to protect it and there are endless efforts, in particular as minister of justice, trying to block every week another piece of legislation whichvf1r from the outside, those with liberal understanding of what democracykl%38y8& is all about seems incomp rehonorsable and dangerous.m >> israel is quite obviously a jewish state. what's so bad about passing a law that says israel is a jewish state?)@@6l'ñ >> i will explain the following. i said it on the floor on the parliament when debated last week. i saidv]ísñ when it comesm3siñ to the deal with the palestinians in the final state, i think it's correct to say that both states are nation states.21+ that palestine would be the nation state of the palestinian people as it is derived from november 47 partition plan and resolution, but this has nothing to do with what's in israel.hhg in israel, all citizens must feel they're equal. the way the majority treats the minority is essential to the well-being of our society. the community in israel is come priend of all denominations.arij fascinaing community.ñtl many of them want to be part of inclusiveness in the israeli publictf who want to be successionists.ppeç our duty is to inclusive of who want to protect the well-being of the state.@?xty and to maybe anybody feel in any form or manner that he is not that, it's not only a huge mistake, it'sy)ávn against the basic inherent declaration of independence of the state of israel. >> what i'm hearing from you is it would be impossible for you to enter a coalition say, with z:e lieberman, who has just proposed ãv art parts of israel proper, the triangle area, that area, be sliced off in a final peace deal and the arabs and their land transferred to :hf÷ç sovereignty.i+a >> the reason is -- it doesn't work this way.hi(4b! at the end, the coalition in israel is formed under guidelines on what's greed on qgmb the agreed-upon policy.ññ? it has nothing to do with the nationality of people per se. the nationality, per se, came out of many ideas that were t÷ floating around to define the real nature of the state of p"?y isz that nature has been defined in our declaration of inl9ñhm the greatness of our founding fathers was that they did not like to talk too much.ñ they did. they simply came forward with the declaration of independence and then they built a nation.mp.d@vz3ç he did not argue about it. in the absence of religious, in a religious flaring up it's6ri a horrendous up and unleashjirañ all of these jeannesjean >> are you saying that idea of transferring arab villages made up of israeli citizens is not on the table? >> it's not on the table. unconstitutional. not feasible at all.úr#xfsád let's forget it. it's another election spin, okay? let's put it on record. it won't work. >> in general i invite each and every one of you to understand what you see from the outside is not exactly what you get. you have all groups, they have different views of life and there are many, many arabs who are included in the big parties, included in my party, and they share an dream of living together in peace.xz(xx when i go to an emergency room in ai.hy dusty hospitalád soldier's life and i ask the mother and father, jewish family, who saved your son's life? they showed me the professor who treated their son and saved his life, one of the best surgeons in the country. we have to put everything in perspective. >> we'll go to questions in a minute. i want to ask one other thing. in your opinion, does israel have pr problems or problemuìáhp &hc% >> israel has both.: look, i don't rule out th2)n that we feel besieged. and the world doesn't understand us at times. however, i don't believe in the 86e4ñé!: biblical proverb of people that dwell alone. in this day and age, we cannot 8svoñ dwell alone. we have to have connections with our friends and allies. we have cooperate together on the international level. that boosts our economy and our internal strength. we can't go on saying, crying out, we're the ones who are besieged.k>a we have our problems. there is lot of hate around the world.w there is lot of undertones. we have to present our policies correctly. i also compare israel to a mid bú"9f side ship in stoney waters in high seas that has to maneuver in the river correctly.qñ we're in a situation where we find ourselves cornered without any ability to maneuver. that's our main problem. >> let me go back to one question, i want to get you on record as much as possible here. this is important question. i asked -v$ñan this question this summer. about the peace process. we tend to think of that as starting 20 years ago with oslo. the palestinians or thet representatives, before there =efé was a nationality and organization.j0ñ have had four, five years, starting with the appeal before 37 to have a state. each time the offer has gotten worse, from a territorial standpoint.=8 my question is, this is the question that plays the left in israel, after 80 years of being rejected, of having the division of the land being rejected by the palestinians or their arab 8a2ñ representatives, i want come back to this, what makes you think that now, is the time to try to move towards this ó"v/6wql two-state resolution. >> it's been a long drawnout process.rwqg you're ignoring a lot of things. you're ignoring the cartoon process of 1968 and comparing it today. today there is an intense interfacing. but my fear is that within the c0u÷l%1 q%9%9eráápq&i camp the people are losing faith in the possibility of separating and jg&fm6zz: coming to the two-state solution.tq1 i &háhp &hc% it was there, believe it was there, in 1994, during the labbin era, there was a huge majority for both peoples. unfortunately, on both sides, it led to the fact that we got into a stumbling block with no possibility of moving forward and then we repeated it time and again. it is the easiest thing, to tread on the psychology of fear. my adversaries in the political system, especially from the i'm trying to challenge that and say we cannot live only on fear. we have to be lucid, we have to g=jñ be careful.y6 we have to protect our yfsq f1 o interests. we must talk. it can't be that the mothers and if fathers on the other side not want peace. why would anyone over the age of 35 with children commit suicide? we have to understand where it xi comes from and we have to make an effort and not say, all of uh u the arab world and the muslims cannot make peace with us. we have to go on and try. >> where does that impulse come from? to suddenly slaughter -- >> there's no justification of it. none who so ever. it's against all moral, legal values. period. it's shocking.> nonetheless, when you look at the whole picture, we have to analyze it, in order to neutralize these elements we have to bring hope. we cannot give up on that. conversation.% bç we're going to open it up. [ applause ] the gentleman to tzipi livni. >> thank you.6: thank you both for a great interview.3kvx a lot of people here would like to see a changing government. i'm not going to express my opinion, because i'm the host. so i'm going to shut up about that part of it. however, when i look at the members of knesset are and i % ñzmy count the numbers and i put the í> xh right on one side of the aisle and i put the left on the center of the other, i take out the 0 t & arabs, it just cannot happen, would you be willing to give us some numbers about how you think you can become the next prime minister? >> because i say people do not understand. you all think that the yz5 ultra-orthodox are to the right. and they object to any peace agreement. for example, let's take that as measure of the angel analysis. the ú 9: juáhju$e butchered rabbis, who were unfortunately butchered. they got up and stood up in front of 1,000 people, the first.& widow said, we have to think about the way we treated others. just as an example. okay? nobody picked up on it. why get interested in those groups out there who we are striking them out as if they're out of it. absolutely wrong. absolutely wrong. remember the coalition. therefore that's just one y example of why people in all communities are struggling with an inner debate about where to go. it's not a question of left or right. it's a question of where we go from here. can we live together? in a normal configuration, a çh+ major player in the elections, one can assume, at least, that definitely a centrist coalition.q and we mentioned others.a b and i think there will be a p4w moment of truth whereby the israeli political system will have to decide, do we move to that direction or did we skid into the abyss of a total >b(o deadlock and the rest of it is clear to us? >> so no numbers? >> there's no reason to write numbers right now.!&ñ).#e we're in the beginning of the elections. those politicians, or at least analysts know how to start a election not end them.q#aqxí;b >> two questions. one is -- there is an idea that the founder of the labor party, (urás ou're viewed -- i'm not here to dump on your predecessor. but as someone who is more -- than she was. >> no, no, no that's unfair. unfair. incorrect.zz 4bi4 >> i'm not asking. >> it's unfair. >> i'm just asking, how do you hit that israel middle that is wanting that kind of labor lbñ party, thñ) x hat kind of approach? >> part of it is by uniting forces with centrist forces who gr)ñé y share the same values.1 danger of the opposition in front of our eyes. i have respect really for my colleagues.3:kwqó and other parties, we all understand the real inherent 1!4z dangers that face israel. and we therefore must share together the ability to bring change.s#3pu >> the5rfnh other part of itéoqf is the issue of you mentionednnci the social justice piece of this. and how 5% of israel came together. but yet, netanyahu won the election after that. he's still ahead of the polls.! maybe you will come up because you will unite.vñp1÷ >> if you want to depress me=ufg -- >> why hasn't labor been able reallyu> it's a very good question. there is a national commission he can delve into that.í only one out of a dozens of accommodations were implemented. the truth of the matter is, in my mind, it was -- he enjoyed the fruit of that process.k2fk of that process. he didn't deliver. >> you didn't join the netanyahu movement during the peace process because of your skepticism.c?j would you rule out joining him if he wins. >> the problem is, all of you guys are asking the questions of the last battle ground. óx i'm telling you, that we're focused on winning the elections. and with all due respect, i don't mind inviting netanyahu to÷v=vx my government if he would accept the guidelines.moahñ >> what ministry would he get?9i >> i'm trying to explain to you, you have to understand, i'm not :x5lxpzt31 hallucinating.uñ it's not easy. it's complicated.@ibz8+@ckr all of us here understand politics is a game of clear undercurrents, that all of a sudden, erupt. there is enormous frustration k-zeñ with israeliosñt9wñ in particular with what is happening.>fé(l ?ñ and this would be reflected in the election results. >> mr. herzog, thank you, jeff. it's a bit of an uncomfortable çpjzña=zñi%s subject in this room, but would you agree that sometimes at election time, the united statesú >>ñs:)÷ perhaps not true. perhaps the other way around. what you see> f cf1 o what you see from in. beware. >> does thewóñ u.s. do that?z3ñ should they? >> it's clear to us that nobody should fiddle in the other's political system. at least i intend not to do it in america. and secondly i thinku,4r!q the wise enough to understand what not to do within an election process.ne4h >> over here. is there a mike?d and michael right in the middle. where he always is. >> talking about the elections in terms of being crucial for the future of israel.)(ñ i'm just the -- fit into your calculus? i think that the result of the next election, what happens after that, is crucial for the jewish world. a world where i see the younger generation finding it more and more difficult to connect with the state of israel. i would be interested in your views as to what responsibility )fh2tpt that israeli officials have -- >> it's a valid point. the view of the diaspora on h5p israel and the what young people think o adequately in the israeli media at all or in r( 5_u!lic discourse.t-gñ what we see, is we see the main y jewish leaders expressing support of israel.áaçznd)w we don't see the grass roots and we don't see certain streams of disenchantment."bhvç which bother me and my colleagues tremendously..ñ'2&tmx the belief in israel as the true homeland of our people. we have to work towards that. we have to foster and strengthen and take it into account in what we do as well. absolutely. for example, i think the whole game of dealing with and touching temple mount was extremely dangerous. and adverse to the basic of israel -- because it unleashed a very, very dangerous religious j conflict. which is unnecessary at all. of course the palestinians -- they rode on this without i rejustification on this white horse and i think that< responsible israeli ledge islators and ministers cannot these steps without understanding their implication on synagogues all over the world. it's interesting to note, where the real sages of the time, the 6b!j5 ultra-orthodox leaders of time, who ruled going into temple cñnkawu mount, including my grandfather -- i think one needs to debate, argue and ask deep questions about that to the leaders of religious zionism.xqa=ñ >> can i just add one quick thing to that? there's a big debate in%y"éñ this country. do you believe young a#p9ñ%:axñ jews are becoming obuñdisenchanted withy÷ israel because of policies or because they're growing distant from being jewish? >> i'm against generalizing.;%,n' first of all birthright has done wonders. it's a huge success and all the other projects that gousñ follow suit. they're ( forming a new feeling towardsq (15 @r(t&háhp &hc% israeli and the young generation. now, the young generation is like the young generation. touch the times for knowing the full picture. andv sees things on the social networksj &< ácbñxi )y including the hillels and the other organizations and the movements of connecting them better to israel or bringing them a community into israel.úa#e >> you have my empathy. >> thank you. >> you can see the color of my hair. it's not easy. i apologize, because i'm going i apologize, because i'm going to ask you the same question i asked you last wajm. when i listen to you, there's a tendency to look at the palestinians as some type of two-dimensional prop for an israeli morality play. they don't have agency.?! they have no control over their own destiny. we are in control.s-ñl?f÷ but of course, it's not true.ñkñ the palestinians have ultimate agency.6cq they have walked away from kñ negotiations after israel released prisoners.£ñ a great number of prisoners. they have gone to the u.n. and are declaring a palestinian kqñha' state not only without giving us peace, with the expressed intention of going to the icc and sanctioning us.úzpéçá you say mazu survived five t] :ñ israeli prime ministers, because unlike you, he doesn't stand form election. in the case of iraq and syria xav think of the palestinian state l bw leadership is goink cd=! for a long time?ñem why would you put your trust in it? so i understand the idea of holding a two-state solution as a vision. but it's a very pretty vision. but a vision is not a policy. i want to know, in view of palestinian agency, and looking palestinian agency in the eye, what is your policy?> what is your initiative? where do you go if he's going to go to the u.n. and put sanctionsu':çr on the icc, he won't come back to the negotiation table if you don't freeze settlements everywhere, and you don't release many murderers from israeli prisons? what's your policy? >> i would say the following. the undermining assumption in don't argue with the facts, except i don't accept the idea that, therefore, it's over. i don't think it's true. true. i don't think that the fact that3 there is a palestinian leadership calls for me to ignore it. all these comments about -- all these arrangements without the palestinian leadership with the people to me seems futile. there is a golden opportunity here. there is a unique convergence of interest that has been there for a long time, but have emerged throughout the summer with our adjacent neighbors, egypt and v jordan. mostly distinguished neighbors. i know the egyptian ambassador is here. may i say that i think one needs to understand that president assisi is a very import ! player in the region, and i say that here in washington, becausen)> it took time, that washington understood the importance, and they need to work with assisi as well, not only with king :zh abdullah, which is also important.x now you need to add to the equation the palestinian authority. and then you have four, a table with a leg of four.h!d÷ okay? egypt, jordan, palestinians and ea israel. they can't work together in 3♪ñ building a process, getting back in from the gulf and the pz international community and the united states, yes, it needs innovativeness. it needs initiation. and it needs for israel to put a plan on the table. >> the last question for the minority leader will come fro-n the minority leader. >> it will not be a question, itán will be a comment. again, thanking all of you, and welcoming all of our guests, all of the guests from israel.( and to you, mr. chairman. i just couldn't let one comment that i heard stand. while it is true that israel and different parties, and you have many friends in the united states who want to help them, with the presence of other members of congress in the room, government would be involved in an election in another country. we have fought that over and over again in the past. and we would fight it if they tried to be involved.p3l it just won't happen. but i know that -- i don't know if that was a casual reference, or if you're referring to private individuals assisting.$ but the united states government does not get invol úúber elections in other countries. that is our policy. thank you. >> thank you. >> i'm sorry, i'm kind of jumping the line for one more question, but it's something that's really on my mind. and i appreciate you giving me the opportunity. t $sp%ority of american juries either are for or conservative, the vast majority. that majority is pretty much rejected in israel, from a kor vergennes standpoint. are you taking the risk in %,u÷ israel of losing american jury rather than including them? acknowledging the fact that "ut reform jewels can be very good jewels. dk people that need to be rejected, and they are. how would you deal with this if you were -- it's a theoretical sa0x question. don't give me the hillary response. >> i'm telling you that i have huge respect for the reform and conservative movements. and they can tell you what a vast relationship of cooperation.qrx i have, my colleagues have with me, the members of the knesset, (wtc-n for my party, a huge gender in women's issues leader, and yes, she deserves a clap as well. anyway -- [ applause ] >> there is a growing strength of lkcrq8 thos]>lvtements in israel./ those movements have been advocating for years, telling their leaders, ifúzgu ur succeed in israel, compete in the market.ji6ñ go into the market. stop kind of complaining and attacking all day long. go in. found communities, build communities. and you know what, they've done it. i was the first minister in israel's history to administer housing, to grant construction ddd of synagogues to their formative conservative movements. this has gone on for many years and i can tell you more than that. they've taken a distinguished pace as well.)43pt we've come to many arrangements. the new convergent b)g6 changed.aí1 many party members were involved in it, and advocated it.b=y and there are many changes way beyond what you understand.@< it's not that the conservatives or reformers are shut out. the issue of marriage and szjtv divorce in israel is under the laws. that's an issue to debate. that's a big issue to debate. but that doesn't mean that that kind of -- that there won't be change, because there are also -=óyñ other changes. i won't go into many details, but i'll explain the following. take the issue of the gay community. gay/lesbian community in israel. in many respects, despite the fact from the outside we're seenka#á )[s as a more conservative country, 1r'p in this respect israel is one of the more advanced countries.ñ 4 it started with a lot of animosity from the ultra j@!÷ orthodox community. and today you won't hear a word.î and therefore, all i'm trying to say is, without giving kind of v1zv]i "ur(á%jt+k r saying, i'm telling you that there are many processes which you are unaware of, and for me, the relationship with the conservative and reform movement are essential. and i believe in pluralism. but there's a way between the living and implementing. and part of it is the dialogue that we hold with these movements in israek &8 abroad. >> thank you very much. thank you, everyone. appreciate it.5,gñ [ applause ] >> ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. and forum delegates, we will see you tomorrow morning. our program begins at 9:00. thank you.u 'óp:ñ & aviation policy. then after that,qñ pentagon briefing. later in discussion future of u.s. foreignl6d4 policy. president obama is holding a year endkc news2 white house. the president's likelyqw to discuss new cuba policy, the cyber attackir on sony pictures combatting isis, ebola, and theod+ñ immigration executive order.c9t 1 o live cvi'(tt begins at 1:30+ehuá cf1 o p.m. eastern on our companion network,"o c-span. >> with live coverage onmr c-span here on c-span3dá>áñ kbliment that coverage by showing you most relevant congressional hearings and public affairs events. then on weekends c-span3 is the home to american:4zy history tv. but programs tell our nation's story including six unique series, the civil war's 150th anniversary, visitingw battlefields and key events. american f&ñ÷artifacts, touring museums and sites to discover what artifacts reveal about america's past. history bookshelf with the best known american history writers, the presidency lookingzy.ñ policies and legacies of our nation's commander in chief.ñ lectures and history, top college professors delves into and our new series, real america, featuring government and educational films from the 1930s through the '70s. created by the cable tv industry$/svqr(t&háhp &hc% and funded by local cable ora satellite provider. watch usr1ci$jz hd, like us on facebook, and follow us on/7qk twitter. >> next, the director and the chief of u.s...6&ñé&"] army aviation give an update on the army's aviation restructure initiative. it's expected to save the army $12 billion. this is hosted >!xú the center for strategic and international studies in& ["kçhour.k=1vñ lt$ 2h#÷(y4$ i >> good.xlyafternoon, everybody. thanks for coming. we are here today to have a conversation to one that we started a whileoe-hw(tz when the army announced the aviation restructuring was one of the more contentious elements of the army's portion of that budget debate. thatsdiñu#q 5ijjju as of aczj few days ago. and so we wanted to have a follow7m where that initiative stands and the future aviation with large given the guidance that was recently given by the congressecç and to do that i think we have a really terrific panel lined up. so to my immediate right is the9f director of the defense office. he is a career aviator who commanded and had the opportunity to command a troop in iraq and go back to the brigade many years later which while he was there became the first enhanced combat aviat~kn brigade. so was in charge of all operations in iraq. he's done:eñ a few other things along the way.#ea&zf1 o hymf=ñ first came to theuy+v army staff in g-8 in and then was able to escape for a year and go backjça[w to the real army at ft. riley where& involved with the%w&>z implementation of aligned forces and how that applied tou >> so he is leading the charge and÷sq%÷ framing next one maybe i don't but manages tos"s keep busy of he's going to offer perspectives on the overalll fiscal aviation land xap is place. to his right is colonel johnr7(tx lindsey who is the director of aviation and army chief.c/s6÷ colonel lindsey is one of the architects of the aviation restructure. so he's going to talk about how that is proceeding and where that stands looking forward. and then finally we have -- it's always great ,&d& have back our=vfjñ alumni. he was a csi fellow in 2012. he was noting in the old building and the digs since he was here last. also a career aviator who commanded both in the general purpose forces and in special q^ñ operations.5zc aviation regiment at ftîpqw a campbell. he just came from brigade command in korea and has now the opportunity to implement or try to synthesize all the lessons assignment into being the director ofx@ develonnp9ñ again, i think0l8 expertise, you guys are sort ofok÷ cumulatively touched many of ther'0)ç same places along the way. but you have also sort of >> like a lot of the% the enterprise piece is what we like to talk about. here and between us. 8,000 flight hours and about over 1,000 combat flight hours as aáa apache guy and a specialñu operations blackhawk aviator. so i mean, you know, got that. >> goodjirt÷ afternoon. this is our version of aimq÷ this is not gray7-f goose. so my name isbix frank booth. i was introduced. and what i'd like to do is as my position before when i was director of material and also the division chief for 2012, 2013, i think i gotq[]yp a pretty good kind of experience as where the budget was going specifically related torp the equipment pay or associated withihr÷ the modernization. and so what i'd like to do,aj÷ is having that perspective and then turning around in 2013 and going back and being the deputy commanding general for support for the big red one by the way, the oldest, most historicktu division in the united states army, i got myññy perspective of what is the impact of budget -- i got a vision -- notn8 vision a window of what impacts are the budget constraints and also the potential forumn sequestration have i know we're here to talk about something else. but it's important to frame it around the discussion of the budget airy cuts and also the impacts of sequestration. so let's talk. in the last -- because of the budget e"iairary constraints, well over 270 programs have been impacted. and whether that has beenkaje2y programs have been basically taken off they've been descoped or whether they've been delayed in some way, shape or fwasa 270. that is aq, significant amount. if you lookh4y at the overall pay on the average historically it ranges anywhere in a wvz÷ balanced force, not a hollow force. it ranges anywhere 24% of the overall budget. withinzjs the ee pay. that is about ló3 22% 24% of the budget. right now we're sitting at about 17%. that is a significant cut in""ñ our modernization programs. a significant impact on the 4 11 strategic, basically, what theía2iz army is now withpa$x -- as it pertains to the budget. so if we go to full sequestration, then what occurs to the programs we talked b i and some of them more than once. when you reshape one year, you have a more budget cuts than"ñ/ñ that, you have to keep descoping. additional 137 programs, whether they will kill or whether they'll be vaúdescoped or moved to the right in some shape or form. that is an impact to the modernization of ourh".íólau÷e4br÷÷ so it was september time frame. we went into the governmentj 3÷ shutdown. it occurred%8aa"÷ that we were told even though we were requesting based ong="r previous years budget which was 147 million to run the division, we requested about 135 million. and now that understand that is two armored brigade combat teams and aviation brigade and sustained brigade. what happened was when all occurred in september october, november time yrame, we were told you're going toía-s get $w= million. in.4dbgw so everyone askwgh how do you portray the impacts of readiness? this happened in the division. immediately we had to implement anything over $50,000, any type of a purchase@wany for?w3bv the division, i had to personally approve. you have to understand that an armor brigade combat team for a year on an average this is very rough order of magnitude, $14 million to train. that doesn't include thez( ctce+s2c ) rotation. you can imagine what that -- our1lmñ average brigade combat team is sitting for the year based on what we wereay projecting at 4 million to 5 million.'fsó one tank enk sin $472,000. can you go through almost 2y: 1/2 months of if one tankkcf.r went down. so everything we stopped driving ourmq vehicles. we stopped shooting. we stopped training.wfmy so at the operational @vvzside we stopped training. we stopped driving our vehicles. i said yo0-m)cb know that could be the big red line. i ñ talked to] anotherbâz deputy!1hñ general in a class last week. he said they did the same thing with the strikers. they drove them back and forthllfúñ three or four feet just so the tires wouldn't get kind of indended on one side or another. just to keep the engines going. you didn't have the gas. you didn't have the money to pay for any miles or! or any type of bullets. so that is the division. that is trying to getóí trod do some of theiz1i missions that we were tasked to do. so what was occurring]hv@ tactically at the company level? nothing. as theyom possibly can to -- you know, sore soldiers and leerdship development. when it 84i comesknf at the platoon which requires you to get-8ú into[9 maneuver on the btr' )q&d andjxu" 11 per month per pilot. can you maintain the current and your current but are you proficient on day night aerial gun operationors company decisive actions? absolutely notñl#l so the readinessdxi$ñ impacted the division significantly. and that'szln.m>÷ what if we move forward with sequestration, at least what i saw last year, i could certainly see that we could see that occur wnt division when it comes to the readiness and#?s overall. i look forward to having a dialogue about aviation restructuring or how the impacts of both across the board and the savings of around $12 billion a little over $12 billion has on thatvhmle strategic impact. operational and the tactical? thank you very much. john? >> sir thank you very much. i appreciate it. i see a lot of familiar faces in here today. we talked to!j many of you in the past year and a half. it's been a long road. were sort of building. but that's in fact not the b0 ccase.9hñ we conceived of this a long time ago with some very solid analytical underpinnings. it feels like a long road because of the process, right? the process is we submit something into the 1519 palm. it happened in the fall of 2013. hxq it gets sent forward inm of this year. as part of the secretary of defense and president's budget. we werep÷ cuts(nú in theú sequestration and this is you know, that kind of set the stage for the wayqm we thought about our structure going ahead. but nevertheless our top line for equipping alo be significantlyíubg reduced and we're going to talk about that in a little bit. the approach was very6q characteristic of the way things are often done and that is a salaamy slice. it's a cut of whole units. we didn't look into the unitg&m andf n rearrange things inymxéb them. we cut whole units out of the force. and that was five aviation brigades. the plan was.%ló to induce itnd three.z it cut all of the modernized systems associated with thosea ìáhp &hc% aviation brigades,o3jç it cut allt"k ofd+c2ñ the best stuff. it cut when we looked at that. we thought there's got to be am, better way. this plan"1!?o this original plan included> keeping many of the£ay!"ñ legacy systems that had been in our fleet have been in our army:g inventory for 40 years.e#í]nd that included÷n;ñ archival warriors, our charlies and our aging training fleet.o$ñ so what the army's$gxg plan did is solve for a short term fiscal bogey. it didn't solve for a training aircraft. it didn't solve for scout helicopter. it was the approach to put billions of dollars into the aging warrior which was going tojd@ give you a marginal upgrade inóhñcapability down the $# road. it didn't do anything to our aviation structures. they all remain the same. we had across the force.q so we tooki'a different look. is there a way to solve many aviation problems? one of the things we put together is this idea that we wanted to keep preserve our best stuff. let's not take our aircraft ouruñ best stuff and sweep it off the side of the aircraftñp "t&et's not doçgfcz that. let'sk5(#÷ safe our apaches. let's save our uh 60s. that became an organizing principle for our aviation. there was no idea that we were going to h!&a ablelm p to goó'fo to the armyéuq÷ç and ask for more money. that wasn't going to happen. the money was gone in the program in the outyears. so we( choices. if you agree that the organizing principle is to keep your best stuff, thenñdá5 you have to throw into play, throw into the mix the idea/bi that you die vest yourf÷1 mix, of course, is your aircraft. we had 368 aircraftv2,z in the fleet. we got ten squadrons.brawpand we imagined what the army would be if we die vested the x oh-a8-d. of course, the question came up what do we do next? what happensmrmwith the scout? of [|ie, we have the ah-64-d which studieño3 have7!,ñ shown can and has over the past many years2zft performed the scout role very, very infectively in the p.>army. so that is one ofdrq@b the organizing principles in the army. we had to pay close attention to the mix within the ac and the rc because, again, dieúdásingtkx6 the o hiv g! the number of the battalions in the army fromhi down to 20. and when you go downé to that few number of battalions based on t over the past 13 years at least then you have to think very carefully about where youñx put those assets. and we make the recommendation to the leadership andmh agreed that we(i3ç needed to put based on tempo and training requirements that asset, the ah-64 into the you know you could not move one thing from one component into the other without having it corresponding balance back to the reserve component for that reason. on shedding structure active pro poen enlt. we can move someá6ú the national guard.(&p ]e:tñ way currently have a single engine nonglass cockpitp@ trainingerro0y down at ft. y and the idea with: to put a duel engine aircraft in place with a glass cockpit. that does a couple thingsv us.wc(çt of all of t0 % change78x is occurring in the active4bñ component. officer transition panel in past over 350 warrant officers for advanced aircraft transitions. and so those folks are currently being programmed for the nextyt several years to pursue training in other.6dñ aircraft. that's happening. we have canceled training at ft.h$tñ rutger. and we have turned in all of our oh-58ejhyy deltas at ft. rutger and moved them to davis forjg÷ demilitarization.xqhqñl ñy kzf we havee1!1 hbq .ñ63 aircraft currently fielded.$k$(t&háhp &hc% and that process is on going throughout the army. we've converted two aviatit ÷ qt$ades that have the objective structure rightn5 --grass m!ñhû9crñ and]x they began to ñ/c thi,é capable force. so with that, i have5.9ñ plenty of other information we can share once we get the questions. but i'llé$k(h(ass it off to my wing man.mrgp>#fqc%#cq+++,bx+wq along with managing also the portfolio. so certainly an exciting time. over 20% of the army dollars go to army aviation. that is a significant ib vestnvestinvestment by the army. getting best bang for the buck certainly what we put in front of us as we go forward. this year, you know we have reallocated the warrior funds, the cockpit censor upgrade funds much that's been about 1.4 billion. we put that into our ari programs. so the remanufacture of the ah-64 into the oak owe model. some modifications and the ah-64 benefited from those funds the shadow as well. we've been able to put incrypted data link in the shadow. and we'll continue to do that. and also we've invested some of those funds into grade. and so certainly the theme as you see is we have to stick on this modernization path. we have to stay focused on keeping the most modern platforms and equipment that support that -- those platforms in army aviation. and lastly, you know, we're neutral in cost. so a significant number of these cast of dollars the censor upgrade dollars have gone to the training that john lindsey brought up. the extra -- there is no extra cost in training and reformatting our force to give me the right flat forms. a few of the collars, over $600 million went into transitions. lastly thanks to bringing me back. the place looks great. and i wish i could have been here for the ribbon cutting. >> thanks very much to all of you. i want to start with a couple questions and then open it up to all of you. i forgot to mention it's been fortuitous, i just almost turned my phone off. so if people can preclude any future phone calls that would be great. and then when we bring the mikes around, if you can wait for the mike and then quickly identify yourself and ask a question as quickly as possible is appreciated. i have two questions, you can diffy them however you like. the first is about we've had a series of events around the future vertical lift initiative and longer term aviation prospect. and the army is a major player and probably the principal player in that initiative. i want to know from the gentlemen, what's the impact of the fiscal environment that you talk about on the step after the restructure? what does all of this mean for fel going forward and how important is the development of the capabilities to the future army aviation? my second question has to do with how you view the impact of the commission on active and national guard. active and reserve components of the army which is -- which -- whose activities over the next year and a half will inform how ari goes forward? >> let me take the commission first. then i'll let my esteemed colleague at the end of the table because they just finished up analysis. he can talk about the potential path forward or the path forward. so the commission you know i think pretty common knowledge that the army did not think we needed a commission. just because of the studies that have been done whether it's with rant and of course cape just did analysis and, of course we did our own internal analysis and we thought it was very good. a lot of analytical rigor put to it to determine the cost benefit analysis with ari. and how that impacts both just like john talked about the modernization and impact to aviation, you know as an entire branch and ability to kind of move forward. but all indications are there is going to be a commission. and so of course, if there is you know, as transparent and as whatever the commission needs in terms of information, the army is going to move forward and provide that information to ensure they have everything they need at the end of the day to make the best recommendation to go forward. then we'll go from there. there are several things you know the -- and i'll let him explaining more of that later. ari, as he talked about, is already more than apache moves. it is several other things taking place. they'll continue to occur. you know, whether it's the -- we've already stopped the training of the pilots. we're already starting to retrain the pilots. all those things he talked about, that stuff will continue to kerr and appear the language is going to indicate that first of february 2016 the commission will be complete and have their report done. >> the timing is important on the commission. commission is scheduled to report out as the general said. so we were aware that was a proposed date in the language from early in the process and so when we were putting together our implementation plan, we were very selective when it came to the timing associated with the transfer and activation of certain units. so our template called for the inactivation of the units. but that's what when we talk about 48 aircraft in the language that's what the plan calls for. we can move to 48. the 31st of march 2016. that's what the language calls for. we're remindful of that. that's what the four structure file over in the g-3 reflect. so no way are we getting ahead or contradicting anything written. our language range invest. strategy brief outs and staffing, we look at our 20-year plan and certainly the part is one of our priorities in that 20-year plan. we're looking very closely at the joint demonstrator, the s & t effort that has been awarded this past september. so as the efforts go forward, we're going to watch what technologies come out of that and certainly that will inform them. but we're excited to be partnering with, you know our joint partners you know, the navy and certainly signed on along with the army. and we've been in touch with the joint staff with many of our aviation leaders. the army is getting smaller. they're not immune to that. so if we're forced to keep additional structure that is not part of the program or procure additional aircraft that is not part of the program, that's impactful to our modernization. even though it's a priority the aviation portfolio is not -- you know, it's a finite portfolio even though it's large, it's finite. so if we see additional demands come into that portfolio, something's got to give. so it's, you know, it's a math problem. and currently it is supportable. but it assumes ari. ari allows us to modernize. >> so here's the pressure that's on the entire budget airy process right now, especially as it relates to the equipment. now they have $13 billion. you can see the downward pressure on every program and on every portfolio within your equipment pay, remember, there are seven divisions. the largest consumers of the dollars that go into the procurement of the ee pay is aviation, ground combat vehicles and the communications. those consume most of that. so when there is pressures which includes the fdl and everything within the programs the decisions have to be made. and you have to descope. those are the programs i was talking about already about the 270 in the potential 137 in the future. those are those programs that get impacted. that's a huge bill that you have to try to assume and absorb within your portfolio. did you want to add anything else? >> no, sir. great followup. it is a priority. >> thank you. questions from the audience? >> hi. i'm wondering if can you talk a little bit about the spending bill that passed congress and there is language in there to study the impact of the th 67's retirement. what are you doing to take a look at those impacts and you know, you have made any head way in discussing things with the helicopter? >> i'll take that one. >> we're studying the language. obviously, this is not necessarily a large prize to us. the th 67 aircraft as we divert of those, they're an old aircraft. they have really been used very, very hardly in the training base. as you know as john talked about, we do a lot of auto rotations to the ground. so these aircraft are probably older than the 20 years would show. but we are studying that. we owe that industrial base impact study to congress. we plan on cooperating with that. the whole aviation enterprise from the folks in the a-sult to ga to the pm are mindful that we need to have a light hand on our industry partners. we'll continue to look at it. >> there is aviation restructure calls for the divestment of 780 legacy systems. then, of course, the th-67s. for delta charlies which is the balance of the 78 o aircraft, those aircraft will be divested and demilitarized and have no commercial application. what we're talking about is the remaining 181 aircraft in that fleet. and what happens with those aircraft and, of course, as many of you know there's a long process that the department of defense has to go to per guidance from both statute and pod policy for the process for those th-67s. the last step of which is to put it in the hands of the st within the department of defense and gsa and make it available for commercial sale. >> if it gets that far. he doesn't have a guy up here. i talk to him before i came over. the folks in the community have three big concerns about ari, particularly apaches, of course. the big policy issue of the bar c should mirror the ac and if they should mirror the combat portions of the army not just cs and css. the second issue that they bring up is in your saying that ari you know, pays for itself. are you accounting for the in the guard potential need for milcom and guards retraining and for possible personnel churn across states. as missions change in units. they can't just order people to pack up and go to ft. hood or whatever. >> all right. okay. i'll take a crack at that. unless you want to jump in, sir. >> i'll jump in where i can. so what we would say to the point about the units mirroring one another and the active component, we say that our units should be and capability should be complimentary, not every unit that we have in the active component is reflected in reserve component. we don't have the ranger regiment or battalions in the reserve component. we don't have thad in the reserve component. we do have maintenance support groups in the national guard which we don't have in the active component. and we have sns battalions in the national guard which we do not have in the active component. so i'm not sure we are in agreement that we have to look exactly. and the other piece of your question that we have to point out time and again is that it is absolutely incorrect to say that a uh 60 helicopter are not combat aircraft. they're combat aircraft. and they are called upon to go into some of the most difficult and challenging and harrowing places in the world every day. and the bravest people, some of the bravest people we know are us 60 drivers. wally can attest to that fact having spend something time in special operations aviation. i think that is to the first point. on the second point about the movement of people personnel and milcon absolutely. we have accounted for the transition and training of people in the reserve component who will assume and fall in on the new structure. that is to say not everybody in the national guard who flies aircraft, likal patchies today, is going to get a transition. we don't have a one for one aircraft going between apaches and uh 6 o's in the national guard. we are going to transition naem we require for the new structure. we said we had i think 750 or so active component warrant officers who fly and not every one of those individuals is going to be transitioned into the -- another aircraft. this is stationed at ft. knox. it's a u.s. army reserve apache battalion who has moved out well in advance of the effective date of that unit's transition to an assault capability. they have broken the code and they have many of the same concerns about folks coming from other places in order to fall in on that structure for training and readiness, et cetera. as far as the readiness question goes, whether or not we're going to have tiered readiness, we hope that whatever levels we have to assume in term of flying our op tempos, we hope that is a temporary condition. we cannot afford to maintain 20 battalions of ah 64s at a low level of readiness. there are a couple things that they do that no other aircraft does. we shoot weapons systems. we team with unmanned platforms. and we fly this thing called a night vision system which is unique to the ah 64 platform. i hope that answers your questions. if there is anything i missed, let me know. >> i think that is spot on. >> go to the back. >> my name is andre peterson. i'm with the national guard association. thank you for taking the time to be here today. i have a followup to sidney's question. ari creates a situation where there are two types of aviation brigades. those with guidance those without. given the likelihood of nonveneered battle fields in the future, it's hard to emergency a situation where attack aviation would not be involved in the equation. if army guard brigades are capable of deploying with augustmaugust augmenting apache units how do you see them piecing together and would acrbs be deployed to army guard training activities? >> i've had the opportunity as the 82nd airborne division to deploy with the first national guard division. i want to say i got this history right since korean war. i was the commander and worked for the brigade commander was mark burke. and we did the entire training together. and matter of fact, we brought in the reserve and was another national guard assault battalion. so that made the aviation brigade. and the entire division was made up of a multicomposition of active duty and national guard. i have to assume, no i know for a fact it would be done the same way. they train together up at for the drum new york. multiple exercises before we deployed. then we did training together in kuwait and fought together side by side for 11 months. i didn't have the opportunity to train with all of the battalion commander -- battalion commands i worked with. i have under the command three national guard battalions. it is phenomenal out of wisconsin, minnesota and did i say that right? and then second 285th out of arizona. again, we didn't get the opportunity to train together. we met mid stride. i hope to say i hope they agree with me. we work well together. we did lots of combat together. to answer your question i don't think it would change from what we've done last few years which is train together, fight together side by side and continue that brotherhood, sisterhood into the future. >> i would like to make pinlt. our aviation brigade that we current sli in kuwait today is a national guard aviation brigade and working for that national guard aviation brigade commander in iraq is an active component. so exactly like it's working so well today. that is how we expect it will work in the future. >> you're up here. >> i would like to ask for a little bit of clarification on the changes to the training fleet in the schedule associated with those changes. when does it start for the new pilots? one of the lawsuit and why not compete this way? >> i'll give you a run down of the status of where we are with the training fleet. we have about 12 aircraft scheduled to be at ft. rutger by the end of the quarter. we've already undertaken a training of our instructor pilots down at ft. rutger who are currently pilots but now are proving the evaluation program of the structure. so that is under way. we expect that will get to the point where we're capable of going through a program of construction from start to finish in the summer of 2015. and thn our first class is scheduled to begin in the first quarter of fy-16. that's when things begin and it's not something that you can do very quickly. you can't turn over the entire fleet in a 12-month period. it's going to take several years to do that. so that by fy-18 we'll have the full compliment of 170 -- 187 of those on hand and everybody on the instructor pilot side trained and ready to carry the students through from start to finish about 1,000 students a year. so that's where we are on the training fleet. do you want to talk about the compete piece? >> yeah. so we have to remember how this generated. so the initial plan was that we were not initial plan was that we were not going to increase our fleet at all. and as part of a a large compromise, the secretary of defense agreed to -- because the army national guard came in and said these aircraft are in almost every state and territory and they're critical to our mission. and so the secretary of defense agreed to this compromise to add some additional aircraft to our requirement. and so initially as we went into this plan the plan always was to cascade additional -- or existing air frames into ft. rutger. so as we've gotten the top line ad i think that's why there was no compete and we felt again as we went from seven fleets of aircraft to four and the luh being fourth pleat, we like the efficiencies and savings that brings us. to bring another aircraft in was just not economical feasible or affordable. and so in the tradition that army aviation has routinely done with the uh-1 iroquois and the alpha charlie. we took existing on-hand aircraft that we owned and maintained already and we transitioned that into the training fleet. and so that's kind of the history there. and again, you know ongoing litigation, you know we're not sure exactly where that's going to be, so i don't know that i can comment on it. certainly above my level. >> hi i'm marcus weiss with defense one. several months ago frank kendall asked for business case on the ari. has that business case been delivered and can you share some specifics from it? >> are we talking about the cape study? >> cape analysis. >> a bunch of reporters in august. he said he asked specifically for a business case on the a.r.i. >> cape did a comparison analysis of the a.r.i. plan wland the national guard had proposed as a counter. >> when was it done? >> it was done throughout the summer and into the fall. >> is it going to be released publicly? >> not very many cape analyses are. >> well, it's a controversial issue and the air force when they had the c-27 issue they came and released a lot of documents after the fact to aid their argument so -- >> i don't have the authority -- i'm not in the position to be able to answer if that's going to be released or not. we were working on it. >> i hope we're not talking about two different things. >> yeah. >> can i take your name and let's follow up with you on your specific question? because i have been to osd several times, i've never briefed personally mr. kendall, but i've definitely briefed several members of his staff. i just want to be sure i'm answering the right question and we're not talking about two different thing, one a business case analysis and one is an analysis of the national guard counterproposal by the capability assessment valleyation. i think that might be two different things. we'll clarify it for you. >> personally i've not worked on anything which i just described which was the comparison of both a.r.i. and the national guard proposal. >> and osd. >> right, for cape. for cape did it. >> i think did you have another question? other questions out here? yes, go ahead. >> to be quick for a change, the additional 100 luh-72s they recalled, that's money above bca caps and i believe that goes over some years. so how is that money you know at stake of sequester returns? i imagine a lot of money is. but those aircraft are not yet in the bank as it were. >> well, it was osd top line ad that you reference and it was -- we procured a number and will procure a number in '14, '15 and '16 is the program. and again, many of them are already procured. so -- >> 100 or 1200 -- >> of the osd top line, of the 100, yes. >> can i ask a quick question about a slightly off topic or sort of off topic about mostly for you, john, about the innovation initiative and how it impacts the aviation community specifically, again, having -- you're in the middle of something now, but as you also are required to think about the future with your other elements of the aviation enterprise what types of aviation innovation are you -- are you thinking about, would you like to be thinking about looking longer term? >> so i would like to spend more time thinking about innovation, but i and my friend here, we spend most of our time in a knife fight every day looking -- >> looking for money? >> looking for money looking relatively short-term. by relatively short term we mean within the program. that's short term. we're talking about innovation. so we definitely are tied in with the aviation enterprise. the smart guys who run the show, and that includes general lundy of course, down at the aviation center and mr. shipley down at ft. eustis and i know that general lundy is probably the best person to -- but based on our six-pack conversations, i don't know if you want to. >> dve is probably a big one. talk to any aviator out there that's been deployed to combat, you just know that dve, what it could provide for both the -- i'm sorry, degraded visual environment. so basically it provides you the ability to see through whether it's weather or also dust. dust, it was traditionally what it was brought forth to dialogue about because of the the dust landings and the threat to the crews as you were going into with a blackhawk to a combat situation landing to the x, as a combat aircraft. and so a lot of times we had aircraft that would run into significant issues because of the dust. so dve helps get through that, but also it can add another tier of capability, which goes into working into a frank complex environment with whether it's smoke, whether it's fog whether it's some type of weather or whether it's dust. it's all of that and it's not just about landing but operating, fully operational in that environment whether it's self-generated, your own smoke or operating in an environment that has it again, mega cities in the future things like that. so to me dve, if you're trying to be innovative, that's something that's out there. >> how do you secure an advantage that is not equalized across the board? it used to be nights and night vision systems came on board many years ago, that gave the u.s. military in particular a decided advantage, and we hope some day that our ability to overcome the degraded visual environment is going to give us that asymmetric advantage down the road. the other thing of course, i think is unmanned systems and what manned and unmanned teaming is going to bring. we're on the very edge of proving out what some of that capability is and can be in combat environments and, of course, when we look forward to what happens beyond our capability, beyond our shadow capability you know that's certainly an area for growth and improvement. >> and we can capitalize on some great lessons learned. first the 229 16th just came back from the range with the models and we look forward to sitting down with paul mealy and a great team of warriors to figure out those lessons learned, what they learned, what we can do better across the board to improve that capability. but i mean, that's the cutting edge in the flying tigers which we know we have some people with history of that in the audience and they did phenomenal. so we look forward sitting down and kind of what's the path forward an what are ways we can improve that collective team working together with that new capability that we have within the model a-64. >> i echo all those comments. we spent a lot of time on airline survivability equipment. i think that's a very high growth area. you know, we have to keep up. i think the threat out there is much cheaper to develop and so we're constantly countering that. i think the itap is exciting and we're pleased with the pace of the itap and how it's looking. jmrtd exciting s and t as well and we're watching that which again feeds into fvl which goes into my last comments. we've done obviously training innovation, too. you know, we are transitioning ft. rutger into a duel engine glass cockpit trainer, and i think we're going to see some really good things from that too. everything from cost savings due to better simulation to you know, just again producing a better system operator leader, aviation leader. and i guess the last thing i'd say is we are working on sustainment as well. we continue to try to chip away at what can we do to lower the cost of our per hour because we're quite expensive and so we're constantly grinding on that as well. so we do, we spend a lot of time on this because, you know, one, we got to maintain our asymmetric advantage that has been army aviation these past 13 years, but we're not going to rest on our laurels and i think that we see that there's a lot of threats out there and a lot of capabilities that we want to leverage to maintain it. >> so as we move forward with these three areas we talked about, we have to -- you know how do we nest this with the army operating concept. the army operating concept, we as the army will either be part of or lead a joint interorganizational multinational team kind of scalable or tailorable to be expeditionary. how do we innovate our capabilities with army innovation to be sure it's nested with this ip kaeblt and what the aoc is going to take us into 2025? so we have to make sure that as we come up with these great ideas we're nested within that capability. these are great technical capabilities, but unless we can apply it on the battlefield and what we're doing in the future whether it's, you know natural disaster support or whether we're out there trying to combat ebola or whether it's dealing with issues in europe or also in afghanistan, we want to make sure that it's all nested in moving forward to 2025. >> let me ask the final -- sorry, we'll hav

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