Transcripts For CSPAN3 In Depth Jeff Guinn 20230312

defies storybook simplicity at a that is usually the way history happens. i think the quote is the most cogent of ever heard. rick does a tremendous job himself and it's true. know historic event happens in a vacuum. it's tied to many other things. and that's the fascination in research and writing on narrative, nonfiction, history. what i read a quote from you as well, and this is from 2021 in the cleburne times review. a lot of people no longer want to buy nonfiction to learn things. they want nonfiction books to reflect what they already believe. want books to reinforce their opinions. they want books that tell them everything they believe is absolutely right and that the other side is even worse than they thought. if you take a look at the bestseller list for nonfiction, for the last several years, there's three categories. generally represented. the first books by political commentators who are associated in the public mind with one side or the other, talking about how the nation isn't. nation is in danger from the opposition. america is going to hell. here's what we've got to do to save the country. starting with you, watching my network and buying my books. the second category is religious in nature. how i came to understand god's plan for my life. what god wants us to learn from reading the bible. and the third category is what i call the magic button. ten ways you can make your fortune. nine ways to ensuring a happy marriage. there are fewer and fewer titles represented on the bestseller list that are simply in depth fact filled objective looks at certain aspects of american history. but there are still people who want to read those, and it's still important to get the history down. that's what i tried to do. well, tell us then, jeff cohen, what do bonnie and clyde wyatt earp, jim jones, david koresh, charles manson have in common? people that you've written about. is there a similar is there a thread through that? oddly enough, there is. my goal has always been to write books that capture the sweep of american history from the final settling of the west to the present day. and each of these subjects are iconic. we remember them. people tend to remember them in different ways. and a lot of the time they want myth rather than fact. i've always thought that the facts are far more interesting than anything could be made up. when i pick a subject, let's use manson as an example. what i wanted to do was write about the late 1960s in america, which in terms of a chaotic time, makes today look peaceful when we're all living in unison. to write about that era, you need someone or something from that era that will make readers want to pick up the book and open it. for better or worse, charlie manson represented a lot about the late 1960s. the culture at the time, the things people wanted to talk about, the things people got obsessed with. so i wrote a book about manson, but it's really about the late 1960s. everyone in you named is represented a certain era in america. what people were doing, thinking, believing at thewhat , thinking, and believing at the time. >> regardless of your topics, and tell me if i am wrong. i find in your writing you treat your subjects and topics with respect. maybe respect is not the right word. but, that is what struck me. jeff: thank you for saying that. i think the worst thing you can do if you want to write a book about some aspect of history is to go into it thinking you already know everything you need to know about it. it and you have already formed opinions about everything you will write about that are unshakable. people that take that approach are really only telling readers what happened. some dates, some names. i think it is important to try to learn how things happened and why they happened. and, what things, earlier might have precipitated the events that bring about bonnie and clyde's short two year spate of crime. if you do that, you may not agree with the people that are the subjects of the book. but, you can at least demonstrate understanding of what -- made them become what they were. if you can do that, i think readers not only get a better sense of them, but a better sense of the time they lived in. if you can do that, i think a book has succeeded. >> when it comes to bonnie and clyde, i almost felt sorry for bonnie. most of those two years she was in pain from being shot and riding around in a ford through undeveloped america. jeff: that is what i mean about mythology. there was a wonderful movie in 1960 7, 1968 about bonnie and clyde. it was fascinating. you went to the movie and watched it and you were gripped by it. at least 5% was historically accurate. it was a fine movie, but it was entertainment. i wanted to know what they were really like. bonnie parker is a poor girl coming from a dreadful dallas slum. her dream was to be famous. to be a world-famous actress. people did not come looking for pulitzer actresses where bonnie lived. she was tiny. she was the brightest people throughout her school years. girls in those days, it did not matter how smart they were. she wanted fame. she wanted attention. for a poor kid, when she got together with clyde barrow, and the newspapers needed something to write about besides the depression and farm foreclosures, here is the romeo and juliet of crime pulling off during robberies and high-speed escapes. they were bumbling criminals. they did not rob banks much because they were not sophisticated enough to do that. if we look at it from the aspects of poor kids that when they had no other option in life, when they are ambitious, have to turn to something illegal, this does not forgive the they committed. people died. it is horrible. but, at least it lets us understand why, to them, it was the obvious and only way out of the poverty stricken lives they were going to be living otherwise. in the same light, -- >> in the same light, how did a movie and mythology develop around the ok corral? was it that big a video? jeff: it was a big deal in a different way than it is remembered. let's state the obvious. it was not a shootout. it was a police stop to take a couple weapons that went bad. it did not happen in the ok corral. but, when western history became a thing in america around the turn of the 20th century, the 1900s, that masterson that we remember saying -- seeing on tv with a bowler hat and a cane who was a gambler and buffalo hunter turned journalist made his living writing these wonderful tales of authentic western heroes that still walk among us. when he picked was wyatt earp. who had a checkered past at best. that fabulous shootout at the ok corral is what we remember. guns drawn around horses and everything else. but what the ok corral really meant is this was a time when survivors, the earp brothers and a doc holliday were brought to trial. for people dying at their hands using guns. while they were acquitted, the case got great coverage. it really sent a msage to the froner. before, you could use your excuse that if you pulled your guand kill somebody, i thought he was going to kill me. i pulled first. w had come to the frontier and will be there to stay. that what was -- is what was important about the subsequent trial. the gunfight itself at the ok corral was popular mythology that helped that --bat masterson cell stories to a lot of newspapers, formed the basis for a lot of movies people still like watching to this day. but it was not really what happened. >> how is it wyatt earp became the known earp over virgil earp, who was actually the sheriff in tombstone? >> wyatt earp in his law enforcement days was never the head honcho. he was always one of the deputies that had to do all the work that the sheriff did not want to. when wyatt was working for wichita, his job was scraping dead animals above the street in the sidewalks. but, wyatt was friends with the notorious doc holliday. doc was notorious even in his own time. he looked right. this tall, striking, handsome man. he was greatly ambitious. he wanted to be rich. he wanted to be famous. he wanted to be well known. in his later years, when his image had become across -- had become famous across the country through newspaper articles he worked to get his memoir out to take advantage of that. so the marketing of wyatt earp is greatly responsible for the shows we remember today. the truth is so much more interesting. about a multidimensional man who, like all of us, had good points and bad points. but he was ambitious and determined to make something of himself. his only regret at the end of his life was he was about to get really famous but did not make any money out of it. >> sitting in tucson we are what, 45 minutes, one hour from tombstone, arizona. the founding of tombstone. how did it become a town? >> tombstone was one of those towns across the frontiers of america in that era where there were greeral deposits discovered. in tombstone's case, silver. the pesky apaches had been moved out. or at least, partially moved out . when the miners settled in and began producing large quantities of valuable minerals. a silver in tombstone, mostly, that is when all of the businessmen came roaring in. you needed restaurants. you needed bars where they could drink. you needed ladies of the evening so they can have a little companionship. and, the towns would spring up and mostly die out within a few years when mineral deposits were all used up. tombstone lasted a little longer than that. and it is still there. for a lot of people it is their chance to go to where the old west still really exists. this is exactly what it looks like. and, the simulated shootout at the ok corral is exactly how it happened. people love going to tombstone. >> what is it like today as a tourist attraction? >> i say this with respect for people in the town that have managed to survive and even thrive by making use of the things that happened there. for wild west history buffs, this is the equivalent of disneyland. you can go there. you can meet larger-than-life characters. you can have a couple throw brides so to speak. and, you can feel like you are back there just like it was. except, nobody will shoot you in the back. there are no drunken minors staggering around. and there are no dead animals in the street. >> one thing that struck me about the last gunfight is every western town you have charted and researched kaplan laws. -- kept gun laws. there were no handguns allowed in the city when -- city limits. >> this is a wonderful thing about writing and reading history. one thing i firmly believe his history is cyclical until we make a final effort. during the time of the herbs in tombstone, these were the great things of the day. government. how much of it did we need. how much of our lives should government stay out of? immigration. we cannot have these people crossing american borders and taking jobs away from real americans. and, gun control. this is my gun. if i want to wear it in town, who is to say i cannot? the very people today that idolize the old west. they think we can stroll around downtown with our six shooters strapped to both thighs. with my trusty winchester shotgun across my shoulder. they had gun laws. you are not allowed to bring your gun into town. you had to check it. they knew that a combination of liquor, macho tendencies, people that want to prove how tough they are. if you have guns, bad things will happen. so, they would not allow the guns. the nra would not last an hour in old tombstone when virgil earp was in charge. i think the nra does not mention that in any of their popular literature, yet it is a fact. these issues that were splitting america apart in the 1880's, we have still got them. the reason we do is we do not look back at history and see where all of this began and it gives us threads to decide, ok, we now have to stop and get some common sense gun laws. laws regarding immigration. and, we have to have some national assessment, some agreement of how much government is necessary in our lives. today we have people lashing out and screaming at each other. we really don't have these debates. 100 years from now our grandchildren may very well be saying, and you believe in gam plus -- in grandpa's time at a the 20 20's they are talking about the same thing we are now, immigration, gun laws, government intervention? if we are going to stop we have to go back to genesis and say, ok, this is what we have to do. otherwise, we will repeat this again. peter: in your next book "manson: the life and times of charles manson". what was your goal with that book? so much has been written about him and this did not come out until 2013. jeff: charlie manson in his lifetime was always the wrong man in the right place at the right time. if he had committed the crimes he was originally jailed for, eyes and he most incompetent temp -- i think he was the most incompetent pimp in the history of american prostitution and an incompetent car thief. if he had been jailed in nebraska and appeared in downtown omaha claiming to be a prophet and handing out drugs to adult kids looking for somebody to tell them what to do, the locals would have stuck him on a pitchfork and put him in a field as a scarecrow. but just in the time in american life or california was where everybody on in america was looking for inspiration. i was in college at austin, texas. all i think why can't i be in san francisco or los angeles where the culture is great, the music is wonderful, the philosophy is there? manson gets out of prison. he ends up in berkeley, california. a hotbed of protests. then, he goes across the bay to san francisco. these were places where young kids flocked. they were looking for gurus like the beatles had. i found people that knew manson at this time. they would describe how manson would go to golden gate park where every day there would be dozens of self-appointed gurus that would preach to the kids gathered around them. all of the kids hoping they would hear some great wisdom. charlie would call two or three things that seemed to be very effective. then he would go to the free clinic in haight-ashbury where sick kids were jammed in the lobby and preach to them there, getting his patter down. then he would go back to golden gate. he would proclaim himself as a prophet. it worked enough with some ragtag kids that they decided charlie was some great profit. maybe even some religious figure. he made sure they had all of the drugs they wanted. and, he pursued his dream of musical superstardom. which did not happen. have you ever heard any manson tapes he made at the time? i had a son who wanted to be a musician. at 12 he and some other six graders formed a garage band before our neighbors asked us to close it down or move. that wasn't charlie manson's level of music sophistication. it was never going to happen. but only in that place and not that time could he have gained his followers he did. and been able to talk them into committing a couple horrific crimes that just at that moment caught the attention of the country. there was a newspaper war in an a. the papers were vying for who could have the most lurid story about the tate love younger murders today -- tate labianca motors. thus the charlie manson mythology springs up. at this little hippie man with magical powers. but he was a scrawny little thug. we remember him differently because of the times he lived in. that is why i wrote the book. peter: there is an image stuck in my head from 1960 9-1970 of charlie manson with susan adkins, leslie karen winkle, patricia van halton. the three women part of his gang. it is stuck there in time. jeff: of course it has stuck there. it is very dramatic. i spent a lot of time with leslie and patricia researching the work. they are in corona california women's prison for life. they will never get out because no california governor wants to be the one to let any of the manson family out on the world. but, they remember the whole trial. vince, of course, the prosecutor, right that fabulous true crime book "helter-skelter" that has sold over 9 million copies in the years since. for charlie it is what he dreamed of. he is the center of international attention. every day before the trial opened and the media came in, charlie, his lawyers, and the three women are who were -- women who were on trial with him convened for strategy sessions and charlie would say, i will do this outrageous thing today. what i do it, i want you three women to jump up and say this. he orchestrated every step of it. if he had gone into selling vacuum cleaners instead of crime, he might have been a multimillionaire. but, he had an image and he told them. he told these women that he was going to play crazy charlie. the knot case. at -- the nut case until it became so obvious that he was too crazy to be incarcerated for the crimes. but, they did not see the crazy charging just charlie. they saw the calculating charlie. having them, houton and krewinkle two that gives -- to attest to that gives us fascinating inside. i did not know much about charlie manson before i started. when i started the book i sure did not like or admire him. but, you had to shake your head at some of the man had. he knew how to sell himself and he sold himself in blood. peter: what was it like sitting across the table from leslie van houton and patricia krenwinkle knowing what they have done? jeff: in that prison if you are visiting them you are not allowed to bring in a pan or pen -- a pad or pen or a recording device. i spent a day interviewing one or the other because they aren't friends anymore and it didn't want to sit at the same table are the same time. peter: and they e old ladies? jeff: we rememberm fren in time and in a way they still are. leslie, the popular pretty girl on a high school is 21 all of this happens and she still has the little girl gestures. when she is talking to you, she plays with her hair. she giggles. she reaches out to pet your hand like the pretty flirtatious girl in high school would do. they would talk and i would have to raise back to my hotel and try to write it down. patricia krenwinkle at one point, an old woman now that spencer days in prison training rescue dogs to be guide dogs for the blind. she will not remind you, as you see her, of anybody dangerous. she is telling me about stabbing abigail folger on the lawn of the house on the night of the first murder. she is remembering how it does not hurt your hand when you stab unless you have bone. then your hand really hurts. i went back to the motel. i was trying to transcribe is best that i could. about three in the morning i finished. i tried to go to sleep and i could not. for months afterwards, my wife would wake me up in the middle of the night because i was screaming, having a nightmare about women with knives coming towards me. it is not easy sometimes hearing what people say. but, you have to listen to what they are saying. if they are honest enough to really come out and tell you these things, then, you better not go, oh, i do not want to hear it. you have to hear it and write it in such a way that the reader is sitting right there with you hearing somebody tell you this thing. you want the reader emotionally invested. because, that is when history counts. that is when it matters. when it is not a high school textbook. peter: what was the process like of getting into the present and convincing the two women to speak with you? jeff: it was difficult. in some form, they will occasionally talk outsiders because they think that if they talk about what they did and that they were guilty it will have weight with the parole board. it took a little while. i think i went back five different weekends and spent the weekend there doing interviews. but, once people feel like they are having a conversation, that somebody is listening, then, they tell their stories a little bit differently. the trick is not to say to someone, tell me about this god awful crime you committed. does it keep you awake at night? people do not want confrontational questions. if you can say, can you help me understand how this happened and what brought you to this point? everyone wants to explain. there again is the challenge of the historian. make people comfortable enough to try to help you understand their viewpoint that does not mean readers read of the manson book and oh my god, patricia krenwinkle, leslie van houten they are wonderful people and i hope they are my neighbors. it does not forgive horrific crimes. we need to look beyond what happened for why and how. that is where the story really matters. peter: was your next book about jim jones and jonestown a natural follower to the mans book? jeff: i have ner really been categozed as a writer of a certain type and i never wanted -- a certain type of history and i never wanted to be known as a cold writer. i do not think there is a generic type of cult. from the manson family to david karesh and the branch davidians there are similarities and differences. but haven't written about the late 1960's i wanted to learn more. i am 18, 19, 20, growing up now. how do we segue from the chaos of the late 60's into, let's go with ronnie reagan and conservatism? that is sweeping the country in the 70's. what has to happen? five was going to write about the 70's i thought two teams would resonate with readers. one was watergate. i thought there was nothing new i could bring to watergate. whenever there is about that is there. the other was people's temple and what happened in jonestown in guyana. supposedly the prime example in our history of when some charlatan gets a bunch of sheepish followers to do his bidding up to and including killing themselves. don't drink the kool-aid is part of our lexicon. i thought, could there be something in that? i started poking around and learned two things. first, it was not kool-aid. it was a cheap knockoff called flavor aid and as many as one third of the people that died in jonestown did not voluntarily drink it. they were forcibly injected. it was mass murder. the second thing is if jim jones had been hit by a car and killed in the late 50's or early 60's, he would be considered one of the leaders of the early civil rights movement in america. i found people that said to me, i would not be alive without jim jones and people's temple. how could he change into what he became? how could he have attracted such attention at this time in america? why would he have been driven overseas by bad press and decide on this final fatal and historic way of demonstrating his disdain? i did not think of myself as writing my follow-up cold --cu lt book. i was writing a book about somebody that unexpectedly achieved great infamy but unlike manson actually accomplished a great deal of good. how does that fit together? peter: just, the survivors that left the peoples temple, do they still hold an informal reunion in november? jeff: the surviving members of the people's temple are in a way kind of like your extended family. they have squabbles. but, up until a few years ago, every year they would all come together around labor day. not just a comfort each other, but to know they were with other people that would understand. they were treated with such great disdain when they survived jonestown. oh, you are the kool-aid idiots. what's the matter? 12 -- weren't you thirsty that day? what kind of full are you that you could follow someone like jim jones? the people of -- that joined and followed jim jones did not marially benefit from anything. he was using his church, and when i say church i use quotation marks. because, it was really meant as an institution to bring about social change. racial equality, economic equality. gender equality. they came to give rather than to get. bit by bit, they got sucked into something far worse. they do not think people understand what happened. i will say this. i have written 25 books now. when i did the road jonestown, when i was done i had about a dozen new lifelong friends that i see to this day. former members of the people's temple. they are some of the most intelligent, culturally concerned people you could meet anywhere. they are wonderful. and, getting to write about them and the things that happened was a great privilege for me. i learned so much writing the book. peter: good afternoon and welcome to book tv's monthly index program. this month we are at the tucson festival of books in arizona and our guest is historian and investigative reporter jeff quinn. -- jeff guinn. we have talked about several of his books and we will go through a couple more in a minute. we want to make sure you have a chance to get involved in the program as well. we will be taking your phone calls this afternoon along with your text messages and any social media comments you would like to make. 202 is area code for all of our numbers. 748-8201 if you live in the mountain and pacific time zones. if you want to send a text message, include your first name and a if you would. you can send it to this number 202748 8903. we will scroll through our social media sites. remember, @booktv is our handle. just -- jeff guinn, we will get to a couple other books. i want to go from jonestown to your most recent book "waco". february 1993. what happened? jeff: david karesh, formerly vern and wayne howell, and the branch davidians lived in a large sprawling house they called mount carmel, a hill outside waco texas. they pretty much keep to themselves. they literally believe every word in the bible. they believe david koresh is the lamb in the book of revelations and he and his followers are about to bring about the end of times from the book of revelation by battling the forces of babylon. they have come to the attention of atf, alcohol tobacco firearms, for being in unlawful possession of semiautomatic weapons that have been converted to automatic weapons. there is nothing illegal about doing that in 1993. if you register each weapon and you pay a tax for doing so. the branch davidians had not done that. disgruntled former branch davidians had made claims to atf. that those that were left following david koresh were likely to take some of their automatic weapons. the ones they did not sell at gun shows. and, to send into waco or some other place and slaughter innocent people as a means of bringing in the government. bringing about the end times of the bible. atf thought it was not only acting to confiscate illegal automatic weapons, but, in fact, public safety was involved. they thought it would be the easiest operation possible. these obviously were dumb people if they believed this kind of garbage from somebody that clearly come into them, was a fraud. they planned, did atf, to make this a bloodless, hugely successful raid. their budget hearings were coming up in march and they wanted to film at the whole thing to senators and congressmen that they were not bloodthirsty people trying to wipe out innocent gunowners. the branch davidians learned they were coming. they were waiting. there was a horrible three hour firefight. six of the branch davidians died. four agents died. 16 more were wounded. almost one third of the agents making the raid. seizure in skewed with the fbi surrounding mount negotiators thought they were making progress getting david -- getting david koresh to agree to come out. the fbi lost patience. april 19 they decided they would insert tear, supposedly gradually, to smoke the branch davidians out over a couple days. instead, they filled the corridors of mount carmel with great clouds of gas and a fire broke out and all the branch escaped -- except for nine thaty escaped, all adults. that became the genesis of the controversies afterwards that have led to a number of violent incidents ever since. there is not just the mount carmel story to tell, but the consequences. peter: the branch davidians, is it fair to say they started out as pretty legitimate offshoot of seven-day adventists? jeff: the branch davidians, first called the shepherd's rod in los angeles, were started in the 1920's by an adventist that believed that, as all adventists did, you had to live by the rules of the bible, then, sometime in the reasonably near future, the end of days would come when christ would judge everyone. the only people that would survive the judgment go want to live in the new great kingdom of god. they would be the ones that had strictly adhered to the scriptures. he believed that the seven-day adventists had gotten too word -- worldly. when their leadership did not agree he and his followers split off. they moved to waco texas because land was cheap there and they wanted room for all the souls that would be saved on the last days to be able to gather together. they kept to themselves when they tried to recruit new members it was mostly from seventh-day adventists churches. they believe that only people who had gone through that church would ever be able to qualify. if they straightened up. a couple different profits followed victor after his death. one was a middle-aged woman named lois rodema. she took as her disciple a young stammering bumbling young guy from houston named vernon wayne howell. under her tutelage, he revealed himself as being informed by heaven. he was king cyrus, of the old testament. he had to take the name koresh because that is how cyrus is pronounced in hebrew. he was the lamb of the book of revelation. he was going to lead his followers into the final epic fight with babylon. the end of days is not only coming soon, it is coming now, and we are the ones to do it. they were biblical literalists. whatever else we talk about today, this is what we must remember. they firmly believed, and the survivors today still believe this, that the god they believed in had told them through his prophet, david koresh, what they must do. and so, they would do it. even if secular law said no. because, god slow -- god's law is the only true law. whatever else we may think with the other things that happened, they sincerely devoutly believed they were doing the work of god. i really had to work to learn that and to accept it. before i can start writing about their perspective on things. if you read the book, again, it does not mean you will say, oh, they did what was right. but at least you will know why they did things and how. the really critical elements of history. peter: charles manson, jim jones, david koresh. not very good childhoods. just: --jeff: no, but it is also true that children with much worse childhoods do not grow up to proclaim themselves prophets and lead people to their death. manson did not want my book to come out when he found out i had traced his history to his cousin and would be able to write about his somewhat pampered childhood. jim jones had an audit childhood, but he was always loved. vernon wayne howell was born to a 14-year-old girl. and, was raised with a lot of uncles and stepdad. but, he never wanted for food or attention. we can understand when people have problems how it might affect them. this does not mean we have to also believe it was inevitable they became what they became. peter: how many children of david koresh have survived and why so many? jeff: david koresh's children, most of them, died in the final fire. that was delivered on his part. all told, he fathered 23 children. by just about a dozen women. he said that the bible quoted that the lamb shall spread his seed. so, the lamb of revelation cannot be jesus, because he did not have children. so vernon, the lamb, had to have children. obviously, he could not have those with just one wife. and, these children of his were really old souls being born again and when the end times came, they would be the magistrates of the book of revelation. they would help rule over the new kingdom of god. three of his children were out of mount carmel by the time the atf operation took place. their two mothers had become disenchanted with david koresh and left taking the children with them. during the seizure itself, he sent out other children from mount carmel, but never his children. he sent out the children of followers. but, he fully expected his followers expected, they will have to die here. the fbi, the atf previously, is doing what the bible predicted. so, their children, the little children of the followers can be sent out two or three at a time because they don't have any vital role coming. but david -- but david koresh's children have to stay. david koresh's children burned to death april 19, 1993. this points out one of the big mistakes the fbi made. they never bothered to learn what the branch davidians and david koresh really believed. they called it bible babble. a delusion. they would not even talk to them about it. they said, we are just buying into their delusion if they do that. they did not know that child for our -- they did not know, though, child well for workers -- welfare workers in waco tried to tell them that david koresh is not sending his own children out. the fbi took it as a wonderful sign. he is letting the chip -- the children out, he will send more, he will send more. he is not sending his own children out. this means he has some plan for a grand finale. the fbi did not listen. they just said, kids are coming out. maybe, it is working. think of how horrible that is. you are followers of david koresh. you are in there surrounded by tanks, for god sake. you expect at any minute you will be blown to smithereens. and you are pleased. that means david's prophecies were correct. we are going to be translated up to heaven and come back in the army of jesus. if the fbi knew that, do you think maybe they would have finally decided after seven weeks, ok, we will just go knock them down? they will not be able to stop us? everybody misunderstood everybody else. chaos then holy violence. peter: did you have good results talking to survivors, to dissidents of the branch davidians? jeff: there were not many left. a lot of them were not young. only nine adults escaped. the conflagration. i talked to five. and i had a phone conversation with another one living in england now. that so hated the questions i was asking that he decided i was sent by the devil. these people, the survivors, to this day, they believe david koresh really was the lamb and everything he said was true. that the things that happened at waco are really the beginning of the end times that will happen at any minute. that david koresh will return like you promised. they do not regret what they have done. they believe strongly god approves of what they did. they were living for god and they are still living for god. i talked to them and they were very open and helpful. i feel like we had pretty good relationships. then, the book came out. in it, i print what they say. i also print the fact that vernon wayne howell, david koresh, stole all his prophecies, plagiarized them from an earlier koresh in florida almost 100 years ago word for word. these are people that for have third -- for 30 years have sustained themselves by hanging on to this belief. this is what they have built their lives around. here comes this outsider that said, look, i respect you, but, you followed someone that was not what he said he was. it is not likely they will say thank you. they have not. i have all the facts of the book and i invited them, please, check for yourself, do not take my word for it. they are not doing that. they do not feel they have to. because, they know the truth and the truth is what david said, no matter what i may think i have uncovered. peter: we are talking with historian and investigative reporter jeff guinn on book tv. we want to hear your voices. we will put the phone numbers up and hear from glenn calling from friedland, michigan. glenn, good afternoon to you. caller: thanks, everyone. my question is about manson and the narrative with a capital in. -- capital n. for example the jussie smollett hate crime hoax that was obviously ridiculous, yet a lot of people immediately, uncritically accepted and promoted it, including the current president and vice president. of the united states. this was because it served a bigger narrative about racism, homophobia, block, blah blah. in the case of manson and his supposedly abusive childhood, until you came along, just, pretty much the entire world critically excepted his story that he was a victim of his family and society at large and all that. even john lennon of the beatles bought into it. why do you think that was? what, if any larger narrative fusing was being served by this sort of blind faith and fictionalized narrative of manson? peter: that goes back to where we started our conversation about the mythology of american events. jeff: remember that in 1968 and 1969 in america anything that would have seemed -- anything seems possible that would have seemed impossible years before. young people were radically changing. before in america kids would grow up to be like their parents. suddenly you have young people thinking it is not only our right to be disrespectful, it's necessary because we need to make things better. you have music becoming the cultural touchstone instead of books. instead of tv. for the first time, you have national news broadcast pretty much on the 20 47 basis but in the evenings you can always listen to walter cronkite. a man walks on the moon. the new york mets when. richard nixon comes back from obscurity to become president of the united states. there are riots in the streets. civil rights. everything is going crazy. people want something. that they can belong -- glom onto and a c in it what they want to see. charlie manson provided that. he was a very protean sort of figure. nixon got into hot water because he said in a news conference it is obvious the man is guilty and why is the news media glorifying him? that gave manson the chance to say that the jury has been prejudiced because the president said this. student rebels all thought manson was great. bernadette dorn, some of those, they had their gesture, like this. in the la bianca murders a four question then to leo's abdomen. so, this was the tines of the fork. if you wanted to believe he was like che guevara, you could believe that. if you want to to believe that he was prove all this hippie stuff was not only disgusting but dangerous, you could believe that. if you wanted a great grizzly true crime mystery with sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, entertainment, you can have that. so, manson fit so well into that time when every headline anyway was sensationalistic in some way. he served the nation's need for something to believe in. and all different categories of belief could see in them what they wanted. that is the fascination of the 1960's in charlie manson. that we were at a time and place where someone like him could mean so many things to so many different people. peter: cornelius in alexandria, louisiana. you are on. caller: hello jeff and peter. god bless both of y'all. now, jeff. jeff: you broke up there. cornelius, keep your mouth close to your phone. caller: can you hear me now? you know the story of the lone ranger? jeff: yes i do. i grew up wanting to be tonto when i was a little boy. caller: [laughter] that's great. there is a guy named basch reeves that was an african-american ranger in the obama territories what the real lone ranger was based on. i saw a smithsonian museum show about that. they had clayton moore's granddaughter on their talking about that. he had an indian companion. he worked for the hanging judge in the oklahoma territories. he was an escaped slave and everything after the civil war. he headed towards oklahoma. they say he was greater than bat masterson. peter: let's get a comment from jeff. thanks, cornelius. jeff: cornelius makes an excellent point. and that is another reason why studying history, researching it, writing about it, is important. particularly, minority americans have been so misrepresented throughout history. there is a feeling right now that if you are a white historian, you cannot properly understand and white -- write about minority figures in history. i hope that changes. just as i hope we will have more minority writers writing about white subjects. we will all understand each other better. bash reeves is an amazing character and i would like to say to anybody interested in wild west history, look this man up. you will be fascinated by his life and times. peter: and there is a connection to the lone ranger? jeff: very much so. peter: let's move to karo in chicago. caller: i have a comment in question. i accidentally met the jonestown voice -- boys sometime after the incident because they were flying from new york city to dayton, where i lived then. to return home, i think, to indiana. my question is, why is there such a fascination with coal -- with cults? jeff: the best way to answer that is that the way -- word cult is misused. anytime a group separates themselves and may have a religious leaf that is not mainstream, it is easy to say oh they are cults. they are probably not very bright and they are following some fraud. that is not the case at all. because the mythology is so strong, a lot of the media picks up on it. and, puts it out of there. that just intensifies the feeling. the manson family had nothing in common with people's temple. they have nothing in common with the branch davidians. cults is just widely misused. i think that is the reason people make assumptions about what they -- what a cult must be. peter: jim jones' sons survive today and talk to you? jeff: some of them. jim jones junior is one of my best friends in this world. he calls himself the first -- he and his family wanted to develop a rainbow family, preaching equality of the races. let's adopt children of different races so we can show that everybody can live together in harmony. jim and stephen, the only blood child of jim and marshall and jones, still are alive. i have met both of them. i'm closer to jimmie vaughan stephen. who is very were -- i am closer to jimmie vaughan stephen. he is very reluctant to speak to outsiders. we are talking about good intelligent people that have become the kind of american citizens we all aspire to be, involved in their communities. they have loving families. they had rough times. they got through it. again, with cults we always think anybody was involved, what must they be? there must be more honest. that is absolutely not the case. in this -- any of these groups you have highly intelligent people looking for like-minded others they can feel comfortable with. jimmy and stephen have very well adapted now to the world as it is. but, they were there when their father was faking miracle healing cures. they saw him during his drug usage. they understood what a flawed person he was. but, they also saw that the people's temple itself, the causes were very just. that they were working towards. they say, and it is true, as jim jones deteriorated into drug attention -- drug addiction and paranoia people stayed in the peoples temple not because they thought he was a god or a great man, but because they thought the goals of the temple or what counted. we will do this in spite of him instead of under his leadership. i would say to anybody that met them, you would like them. you would learn a lot from them. i have learned a great deal from cult members and grown because of it. peter: is it a fluke that both jim junior and steve are alive today? jeff: yes. jim and stephen were part of the jonestown basketball team. that had been allowed to leave jonestown. which, by the way, is buried in the middle of the impenetrable jungle. to get in there to take a look ahead to charter a plane. i had to land in the middle of a jungle on a little mud landing strip and use machetes to cut a couple miles into the jungle to find where this had happened. guyanese government tolerated jonestown. but, they were not necessarily enthralled with jim jones himself. the idea that jonestown would have a basketball team that could go into georgetown, the guyanese capital, and play exhibition games against the guyanese national team, maybe that will help. so jimmy and stephen and some of the other young men from jonestown were in georgetown. when the big moment came, a congressman at a couple members of the news media were killed. jim jones gathered everyone together. tohe called the office they hadn georgetown. jimmy took the call. his father used codewords -- kill yourself. jimmy and stephen said, no, we are not doing that. do it. and there were some followers who were in the welding who still believed in jim jones. one woman took a knife and killed herself and her children. jimmy and stephen, thinking maybe before he has everybody die, he will do one of his four hours sermons. went racing to the american embassy to see if we can get a helicopter or a small plane, if we can get there, we can stop this. we will stand next to him and save you cannot do this. the embassy was closed no one would talk to him because they thought the temple were a bunch of weird americans doing questionable things. the next morning, the surviving basketball team members in georgetown were arrested by the guyanese police and held on suspicion of murder. it took a long time to get out of there, but it was by sheer luck that the jones boys lived. it was good fortune. they are great, contributing citizens. peter: government response to both jonestown and to waco did not save lives. jeff: you did not, -- it did not, though there are different circumstances in both cases. jim jones had gone to diana -- guyana after his reputation in america had been destroyed by some investigative reporting that indicated negative things about his ministry that people had not known before. but he was still considered by the government to be legitimate. there was going to be a congressional investigation because relatives of some of his followers in people's temple complained their family members were being held against their will. whether they were or not is questionable, but when that government pressure came, when a congressman just to show up and say, i am coming in and i am going to inspect, maybe two dozen of the people in jonestown really wanted the. if john -- really wanted to leave, if jones had said, everybody is free to go, there would still have been over 900 people. but jones was paranoid. he believed if we let one command and take a couple dozen people, another will be here next week. he will take more people and assume everybody is going to gone. there's why he decided to kill the congressman and we are all going to die as a gesture. peter: just remind everybody, congresswoman jackie speier, who just retired with liam mccarthy's assistant and was shocked when she was done living in 1970. jeff: the branch davidians, one thing i have to remind people of is that there is a three groups involved in what happened in waco. we have the ats the fbi and the branch davidians. that ended horribly and it did not have to end the way it is, but for ats and the fbi, the best result would have been a clean operation, not a shot fired, nobody dies. only the branch davidians required people to die. that is a fact. peter: mike, detroit, please go ahead with your question or comment for jeff guinn. caller: it is great to hear from you. i lived in arizona and in missouri. the one thing that struck me was the civil war. the conflict there, union soldiers, texans. even your father was an abolitionist. it seems like the war never ended from the border states to 20 years later, until it that generation died out -- until maybe that generation died out. jeff: that is the rate on critical observation. until the civil war, most of the pioneers headed out west are coming from the northeast, because there is so little available land. they want to become landholders, have farms and ranches. after the civil war, the majority of the people coming west to make their fortunes are former citizens of the confederacy who want to get away from the union. now, suddenly, in arizona, you have got people moving in were trying to get away from any government control. the government should not tell us what to do. we came here to avoid that. then you get people like the earps, particularly morgan, who identified with the union, with long order saying we have got to have laws around cattle and taxes were a big issue. if i am a former confederate soldier who lost an arm and i have come to arizona to tombstone to make a new life, i do not want some yankee fighting on the other side that day to be the sheriff and tell me some of my cattle looked suspicious and they might be wrestled and i am just going to take your whole hurt it to make sure. this tension, the civil war exacerbated it, and it brought that conflict into a different area of america where tensions continue to rise. great point. sectional rivalry, regional rivalry is important. glad you raised that subject. peter: from gary, what is your favorite cinematic or tv adaptation of the wyatt earp story? jeff: i know i should say something deep and thoughtful, but what i loved the most was the star trek episode where kirk and spock and some of the crew and up back in tombstone. there are quite a few movies into beaches that have been great entertainment. they may have sacrificed historic fact. i am still hoping somebody will make a realistic movie. in the meantime, may the force be with you for asking the question. peter: this is nancy from ames, iowa. caller: my home and is about how history touches our lives -- my comment is about how history touches our lives. by chance, i was having lunch at the lbj ranch with lady bird johnson and a group. i was a magazine editor and we were doing a story. very quietly, a woman committing -- came in, bent down and told her what had happened at waco. it is an indelible number in my life. this is johnson's composure -- misses johnson's composure is something i will never forget. she said thank you very much and she went on with her obligation, but i could see in her face and body language her distress. on the point of being just another point, this happens to be the sum of march anniversary -- selma march anniversary. my husband and i were married by the reverend james we in washington, d.c. he was the most wonderful man. those are my comments and i am enjoying this wonderful historic, who we all need to love them, cherish them and promote them in any way we can. peter: you have dropped a couple of names and historical events. can you tell us a bit about yourself. ? >> height was a magazine editor. i funded the raising for the hearst corporation in they can and seven. i think back on before that is i have a masters degree in american history. i hope that in fanatical observer. i was also an editor at american heritage for a short period of time and was a colleague of dave mccullough. we worked on a book on world war ii. peter: are you associated today with neighbor state university? caller: my husband is retired. however, he is still associated with the university because he has been involved with the foundation maintains the beautiful -- there. we are both now retired. peter: thank you. jeff guinn, any comments for nancy? jeff: it is wonderful we have people who not only care about history but about an active part of it. good for her. thank you for sharing that story about the emergence in. if lady bird had been involved -- in charge of either the agencies in waco, we would not have the tragedy. she would've been more thoughtful. peter: you live in fort worth. we were talking about the george w. bush library and the lbj library in austin. you told a fascinating story that i think nancy and others might like to hear. jeff: people always ask when i got interested history. one important moment was when i was a sophomore at the university of texas at austin, they begin building the lbj library and campus. lyndon johnson retired to his ranch and he would come on campus by helicopter with his assistant, tourist curves goodwin, -- doris kearns goodwin, and some family or friends. he would take them onto is talking about different things. johnson would allow some of us college students, maybe three or water anytime, to join his group -- three or four at a join his group. over a dozen times, i was able to follow lyndon johnson around and hear him talking about this event or that event. when he said to martin luther king at this moment, how he called george wallace and said i know you think yours, referring to testicles, are like this, but i have got bowling balls. hearing the stories and seeing that there is some great historic figure who is really made me want to know more. essentially, that is what i have dedicated a lot of my career to. thank you, lyndon johnson. every time i see a bowling ball, i think of you. peter: i hope that story goes viral. this is a text message from gf in colorado springs. i am a sucker for horses, gunsmoke, westerns. i am puzzled by the fact that nine of your books contain footnotes, sources, been their fees, or documentation. can you help me understand? jeff: do you have not read my chapter notes. i am careful to try to list everything and i would urge you to go back and look again. peter: with, profit -- rec, providence, kentucky. caller: thank you for taking my call. question is about waco. at the end of the operation, when the assault happened, the attorney general reno and president clinton both have to sign off on that? or was that just a decision clearly made at the local level? jeff: thanks for asking. an interesting threat attaches to back. janet reno -- an interesting story attaches to that. janet reno had only been swearing and in ddlef the waco standoff. the fbi brought to her a written plan to end the siege. their idea was they would insert a teargas, gradually over two days into mount caramel. everyone inside, their eyes become irritated, they get fed up and cannot. reno approved this plan only after she was assured that the amounts of gas would not be dangerous, particularly to the children. she called in experts from the army to go over the plan before she finally said, yes, i think this is what you can do. she did take that plan to president clinton, who also approved it. what is a fact is that she believed the gas insertion is going to take is gradually over two days, because the gas itself that is not dangerous or combustible except in great quantities. but what happened on april the 19th carbon -- making, starting at 6:00 a.m. is almost immediately the sba -- fbi fired all the gas. it was supposed to last two days but it lasted maybe four hours. great floating thoughts of the gas permeated the hallways. the fbi had cut off electricity into the:. it was a cold, rainy spring in waco. for warmth, the branch davidians had pulled in lanterns that were lit with fuel oil. theh themselves -- the clouds themselves werelmost bound to explode. you this day, there is the question of did the fbi deliberately set the fire? was it an accident? did the branch davidians decided to commit group suicide? date would've called it translation -- they would have called it translation to heaven. the fbi should not have done what it did with that gas. afterwards, reno said that she was lied to. the fact remains that it was not. -- it was done. reno and clinton approved the plan, but not that plan. it is a gray area. peter: your 2019 book, the vagabonds, how much of it was true that thomas edison, heavy -- henry ford and harvey firestone all went camping together? jeff: this is one of my favorite books i have ever wrten. it was so much fun. before the vega bonds, as they call themselves, their camping trip started. they would take their cars and dave procession of trucks and go out on the roads of america four weeks long trips. the purpose was recreation but alketing. when the first model t's are introduced to the country, and all of your family can afford a car, people thought of cars as transportation to and from work. fort wanted the nation to understand that a car was freedom. there was no reason not to go out on the family car trip. over a 12 year it, because they were -- a 12 year period, because they were the most famous men in america, we switched from a horse and buggy or railroad culture to a car culture. when they started their trips, there were about 800,000 cars in america. by the time the there is billion's of cars, well over half model t's. edison ford were great pals. they loved going out and roughing it. that meant the servants would cook a nice meal and wash and iron their clothes while they were asleep in their tents. in any of you ever get a chance to go to the ford museum in michigan, please do so. they have got the tents in the car that the vagabonds used. it is a wonderful story. it shows america changing but there is no blood and guts involved. i enjoyed the break from writing about tragedy. it is a wonderful story. peter: this was in the early 1920's when the three men sold tires and the cars and light bulbs and went out and camped. how big was their entourage? jeff: they might have 8 or 9 cars, but there is no highways. this is a time when you lived in and there was a round twisting h to. you might hear the rumble of car engines and run to the, by god, that is henry ford, that is thomas edison. they are getting out of the car, going to end nuts cafe. -- going to aunt edna's cafe. ford and edison were the card agent -- kardashians of their time. maybe we have kim just outside the c-span booth and everybody would go, isn't it what will we are giving someone special? i tend to think ford and is and will more special, but it depends on your outlook the vega bonds, it is the only book i have ever written where if i am trying to relax, i go back and look through it. peter: you followed that book up with more on the border about poncho villa and the hunt. how much of that hunt for poncho villa is missing? -- is myth? jeff: the greatest myth that made me write that book is that i avidly watch political campaigns. i heard a specific candidate in the run-up to the 2016 election saying, "i am going to build a wall on the border to keep mexicans from crossing and mexico is going to pay for it and it is going to be wonderful." \ i thought to myself, don't you think if it all would have worked, somebody would have thought of it before? maybe i ought to research border history. lo and behold, there were plans to build an impenetrable wall between the u.s. and mexico in 1904, 1908, 1914, 1917. every time there is great fanfare. then there still is not well because you cannot contain it in any of the wild areas. people were -- who were determined to climb over it, under it or break through it. it never works. how can a candidate say that? i guess he never stayed history. i thought it mighbe helpful to write a bo that had the history in it. maybe the wall builders might like to save themselves some frustration. on the way, i got to learn about pershing and his p of villa, the raid into america by villa and his bandits. i had never heard about any of this stuff. history will surprise you. the real stories are so much better than the myths. if it'll order history had been understood in 1960, we would not have wasted time and money about -- talking about building the wall. it did not work be for and it never will. -- before and never will. peter: was poncho via the threat that took the u.s. army moving down to texas to combat? jeff: americans have always believed that no matter what else may happen around the world that our borders are secure. villa wanted to incite american troop movement into mexico. he had been out general by a civilian named to stanza. the only thing he felt he could do was make the mexican people rise up, that the americans are coming back. american land grabs have taken so much mexican territory. at one point, we invaded veracruz for no good reason and held it for many months. karanza was seen as a government endorsed by americans. villa thought if i attack and kill somens they will have to come after me to mexico and i can say the yankees are coming and they are trying to take more of our country. first, he killed a bunch of american engineers in mexico. a letter mexican territory in the northern states -- a lot of mexican territory in the northern states was owned by americans. he decided he needed to show americans they could die in their country. he cost of border into columbus, killed some people. the american government sent pershing and his mission to find villa. peter: did world war i stop that mission? jeff: [laughter] world war i stop that mission, but because of what happened in mexico, america was prepared for its entry into world war i. that is part of the great straight. this is what is wonderful about history. pershing goes chasing after villa into mexico but he is given constraints by the american government. whenever you do, do not get into a not fight with the mexicans. he gradually finds himself topped by the mexican army in northeast mexico. he has got thousands of troops with him. they cannot move in any direction. pershing was a brilliant soldier. he realizes the american army is not prepared to go into battle, not just against the mexicans, but if we are ever brought into the war overseas. he uses this time to train trips, to drill them. they had never had this kind of thing. america enters world war ii months later, pershing becomes a commander over there, but if his troops that he had brought to mexico were the only bible ready troops we had, so america could immediately get in on the fighting. without pershing and the punitive expedition, america wouldn't had to have held out entering the war months longer and who knows how history might have changed. peter: 202 is the area code. 748-8200 in the eastern/central time zone. if you cannot get through on the phone we still want to make a comment, type social media and you can text a question or comment to (202) 748-8003. that is for text message only. please include your first name and your sin. let us hear from gary who is in sioux falls, south dakota. caller: thank you for having historical facts. i am a history major and a vietnam veteran. i am curious about how in 1968 talking about the trial and we know how bobby kennedy and martin luther king jr. were killed and malcolm x. what were you doing in that time? we are about the same age. jeff: i am about to turn 70. i was in college. the 1968 presidential campaign lends itself to the increasing paranoia and anguish in america. i was a student in texas. i was following linda johnson around at his library. i felt guilty because i developed an admiration for eugene mccarthy. he forced johnson out of office. i think i told lbj that dr. would have if i had been allowed to follow along on his tours. wendell holmes said you need to share in the actions and passions of your time and i think a lot of us did that. people like you are the people i write my books for. and you for being interested. peter: terry, st. louis. good afternoon. we are listening. please go ahead. are you still there? tell you what. we will come back to calls in the second as soon as we get them straightened out. we will come back to those calls in just a second. one of the things we always do with our authors here at book tv on in-depth is we ask them what they are reading. here is what jeff guinn told us he is currently reading. it is rick atkinson were to trilogy, an army at dawn, the day of battle, the guns at last flight. rick atkinson has set in that se awell to talk about his work. why have you kept that series? jeff: every time i write a book like waco, i spent maybe three years feeling scared. scared that there is so many moving parts, so many people to include in the story. i am always afraid when a serving the bucs. i think i will never be able to do it. but then i realize there are so many great historians who have done that. i like to look at their work and be comforted by the fact that it can be done. i think ricktkinson is one of the truly major histories of our tent. i do not flatter myself that my work is equal to his, but when i finished the, -- finished waco, i wanted to refresh myself by seeing how a real pro could write about such complex issues, so many moving parts and not only make it accurate that make you want to keep turning the pages for he does that. he's got such a wonderful voice and rhythm. i read his books just to feel good about the possibilities of writing history. peter: it is the 30th anniversary of the waco incident in april of 1893. -- 1993. this is the most contemporary history you have ever written. why? jeff: never -- there were some supreme court decisions, 5-4 votes during the pandemic, two mega-churches sued the government's of their states who had put a limit of 75 people in gathering because of the pandemic. according to the churches, this violated freedom of religious expression. they wanted everybody in the same room. the supreme court found 5-4 in their favor. some people in the justice department throw up their hands and said, no. now any religious group that wants to say, this is what we believe, you have to let us do it, because now there is evil president. -- is it legal precedents. i would like to know more about this. where in american history have we had conflict between people who believe they are religious beliefs superseded the law? waco seemed like a possibility. i read different books about waco. i never want to write a book is already done what i want to do. there were some that i thought were quite good. but i also felt that there were things that were never answered. there is no mention of the atf or what would make them get involved. it was like david koresh and the branch davidians sprouted full-grown in waco. but where did th why did they g? you have to believe the story is worth telling if you will spend three years of your life doing nothing but working on this. 24/7 when i am researching and writing a book, that is what i do. that is what got me curious. the branch davidians today if put on trial say, our religious beliefs were being attacked and we would have to fight them to the death and we are sincere in that? could they cite a 5-4 super court decision saying religious freedom outweighs public safety? there is a legal president now. you know they could find some lawyer who would argue that. one of my next books might take this further. peter: do you want to say more about that next book? jeff: i want to bring readers up to the present. if after i am gone, people can read my book the last gunfight and follow how america changed all the way to the present day, the legacy of rage in the subtitle examines how the events in waco have been used by impetus by antigovernment protesters to this day for the actions they took. it is maybe time to take a look at some of those militia and how they have turned out to be what they are and themselves to be on jane my sixth -- january 6. or maybe someone like alex jones who has made a career in arguing conspiracy theory. maybe these folks deserve a closer look at themselves. peter: michael, broward county, florida, please go ahead. caller: i wonder if you have thoughts on the mst murders here in florida. it ties into what you were talking about, especially with contemporary and religious freedoms. in florida, there is no vaccination requirements. if you want to get at any vaccination, you somebody sign a form. it does affect things. the mst situation, and a lot of people are not aware of it. how guilty is the community at large versus the person? if committee was outraged that he was not put to death because of his childhood, you mentioned childhood, client wonder if you have heard of edwards tented experiences. we now know from this large study that our brains are like plastic. what happens in our childhood completely changes them. it is not just adverse experiences. success also changes the brain. we are all familiar with ptsd. peter: and not there. we will stop you there and see if jeff guinn has anything he wants to add. jeff: you are right about the florida situation being interesting. my frustration is i will not live long enough to write the book i want to write. if you love history and are interested, there is no trick to trying to write books. you just have to tell a story that will induce people. -- interest people. maybe i will get into florida. if i do not, though, i hope somebody else writes that but -- that book. peter: from rita, wisconsin, fun and fascinating discussion. my question is regarding the manson women. did either of the two women you spoke with display any regret or acknowledgment of the horror they perpetuated? jeff: i found both women to be very interesting. i spent enough time with them that i felt we were getting past the general comments they are making hoping the parole board the seat them -- see them. they both say they take personal responsibility for what they did and that they hate that the it. leslie then out beliefs -- that help believes she has seen mass murderers who did far worse things get paroled and of prison when she stays there. she makes the argument that she never told anybody like the others, just desecrated a corpse. she feels that for this reason she deserves to be pardoned. the parole board has not agreed. she says she is sorry. i think she is, i also inc. she sees herself as a victim, but there is injustice placed on her. printers regarding withdrawal has -- patricia chronicle has told me in tears that she did awful things and her excuse is she was scared of manson and she knew he was capable of doing terrible things to any follower who did not do what he told them to do. she then added i know that is no excuse. she, i believe, does not see herself as a victim but somebody who has been punished deservedly. peter: i apologize for the fascination about this, but what was that first letter that you wrote to those two women? why did they allow you personally to talk to them? jeff: one of the advantages of having written a lot about this is when i am contacting someone and then, i am interested in facts, not mythology and when every you tell me -- and whatever you tell me is what i am going to write in the book. even if i do not agree, your perspective will get in. i can send copies of previous books so they can see the kind of writer i am. that can make a difference. i try to send a certified letter, particularly with manson, some people involved were trying to keep this a secret. and here is a letter saying, i know who you are and that you are trying to avoid everything all these years, but now tell me the truth. i explained i would like to send them some books and after after -- and if after beating them they are willing to consider talking to me, can we have a conversation? that is what i always do. usually, it does work. i am good at tracking people down. in a couple of cases, people have not wanted to talk. i have to respect that. they have no legal obligation to talk to me, in particular, some of the younger manson women now have children and grandchildren who have no idea what they were a part of. what am i going to do? ruin that for them? no. i can tell the big story. peter: is your book aloud in the prison where michael and van helton are? jeff: i wish they could read it. i do not think they would like everything in it, but i believe they would think that a fair story has finally been told. peter: text message, my name is dr. mitchell in new brunswick, new jersey. thank you for your awesome audio for wine and what propels you to become a historian -- thank you for your awesome body of work. when and what propelled you to become a historian? jeff: i extorted down the path when i read a book called travels with charlie by john steinbeck. i am reading the book and am thinking this guy that i only know because teachers made me read the pearl and the red pony, he got in the car and drove all the -- all over the country, talk to people, wrote about it and got paid for it. i want a piece of that. when i was in college following around lyndon johnson, listening to the way he told the stories i thought it was superior to the audit valve the fees he had written. they were all formal. i kept thinking, there are better ways to tell all of this bread i became a journalist. i was an investigative journalist. i learned how to look for things and i got very lucky. i was one of the few fortunate enough when i wrote books about history that enough copies sold that i could give up my day job and just do it. big shot up to john steinbeck, lyndon johnson and charlie the poodle. you were my inspiration. peter: we also ask authors what their favorite books are. according to jeff guinn, travels with charlie by john steinbeck is one of his favorites, along with catherine drinker bowen, yankee from olympus. could you speak to those two books? jeff: the yankee from olympus is the life study of wendell holmes. i did not want to read the book when i was in high school, but the high school i attended was all over us wendell holmes has spoken i was mesmerized. it was from catherine drinker bowen that i realized rating history did not have to be boring. it was not just facts and names. she created context, starting starting with his grandfather, a minister and his father, a famous poet. and how everything he learned to fit into his time and place and how the decisions he helped render on the supreme court that changed america forever were not just based on law but on personal experience. if you could write a book like that, and not make it dry, i thought it must be possible to write history that is factual, that tells important stories people do not know and that people can enjoy reading. that is an inspiration. as far as the once and future king, anyone who has read it knows that is the arthurian legend presented by a great storyteller. he could tell you this story we all think we know and he could make it seem to apply to modern times. he wrote it after world war ii. he was a pacifist and he wanted to write a book that made people about certain philosophies, taken the lead does make -- does might make right? i love the way he could bring fresh light on something we thought we knew. those were the people who inspired me and still inspire me. i read those books again and again and it is always like the first time. peter: only about 15 minutes left with jeff guinn. donald is in ohio. caller: i am in a nursing home called the twilight guard and i am about 90 years old. i was with my wife in waco. we went to spend a summer in the enclosure. i cannot remember who is in charge. but we went down there because we were seventh-day adventists. we were studying all we could about offshoots of the adventist church. we went to waco, spent a summer and disagree with a number of things they did, including keeping jewish holidays. we did not believe in observing those old testament feast days. the only thing that carried over into the new testament was giving the seventh day sabbath, which we tried to do. we spent a summer with these guys and saw that there was corruption. the secondary man was having an affair with a 60 no girl. -there was- 16 year old girl. we knew waco without the place for us. afterward, might daughter going to grade school at david koresh center in dallas, so she knew who he was. we had all this background and we knew the history and went into the people we were with. peter: thank you for sharing your story. let's hear from jeff guinn. jeff: i am curious where his got her new david koresh in school, because he did not become koresh until after he left school. other than that, there were some things that would seem to outsiders unsavory about carmel, but the branch davidians believed they were doing what the bible said was allowed. they chose secular law. peter: it sounded like donald was referring to the rhoden family. tell us about them. jeff: they were seventh-day adventists who believed they had been called by god to succeed victor. he said god's message was they needed to follow jewish ceremonies rather than christian ceremonies, which are pagan. that is why they celebrated passover and not christmas or easter. lois, after her husband died, said the angel had come to her and revealed that god thinks women are every bit as good as men. for that, she was acknowledged as leader. she also acquired that statement from an earlier koresh team in florida. david koresh stole from team and lois roden was doing it. peter: the branch davidians were somewhat interactive with the town of waco. is that a fair statement? jeff: a lot of the branch davidians had the jobs in town. koresh had one legal wife who was a cashier. koresh himself liked to go to chelsea street pub at night and sing his song which no record producer in l.a. her wanted to acquire. when the media came in immediately following the events with the atf operations, they wanted stories. they would fan out into waco to ask people if they knew any of the branch davidians and if they had done disgusting things. all they were ever told is they are strange but keep to themselves. they could not find people who could complain about the davidians. these many years later, there are people who say i was there the whole time and always suspected they were terrible, but nobody was saying that at the time. peter: chuck, california. jeff: the writing you do -- type of writing you do, have you ever thought about the christian scientists and what they have done to the thinking of americans? jeff: i have you think that is not a thriving and over that about getting into. maybe another writer. peter: john, billings, montana, please go ahead. caller: have you ever thought about writing anything about the zodiac killer? they have been saying for years and is a woman to find him when he is actually doing a life sentence in fontana -- in montana. jeff: i do not feel the zodiac killer has the historic tobacco across our culture that other subjects might, so i did not think i will be doing that one. peter: we only have a few minutes left, but one of the subtitles of the last gunfight book is how it changed the american west. what exactly do you need when you say that? jeff: the event was not a gunfight. it was a police stop to take a couple of apons. it neverappened in the corral, but messed up arrest a couple of blocks from the corral is not as catchy a title. in and of itself, the event is negligible, people have in mythology, but in real history, this was the time. balls were elastic in the frontier. -- flaws were elastic and he frontier. if you shot somebody, you could get off by saying i thought he was going to shoot me. when the herbs and doc holliday were brought to trial for the killings that took place in tombstone, that was the signal that in the west, courtroom lot was going to be the decisive factor. it was not going to be law of the streets anymore. that is why we need to understand it. it is a turning point in american history. the other extent is entertaining but also mythology. peter: steve, ohio, does jeff guinn consider him a myth buster? does he seek myths developing today that will be busted 50 years from now? jeff: an awful lot of belief in history is based more on convenience than actual fact. i do not want to call myself a myth buster. so many people take comfort from myths. but i think of myself as a factfinder. i do not believe in alternative facts. if i write a book, i will let you know in in chapter knows where i got every information. i am not going to tell you what you have to believe because of that information. i want you to know it and make your own decision. peter: steve, kansas, we are listening. caller: hello. i am fascinated by your talk. i will watch and read your books. two points -- first, into the 19th century, in tombstone they made a movie on it i would be surprised if you have not seen. to me more parts of it are true. some of it is myth. but some of it is well. -- real. i go back and look at the history and some of them were actual prostitutes. the other thing is my grandfather put school before he graduated. i think he was about 16 when he headed west from ohio. he went to kansas and worked in the field. in the fall, he went to work on the railroad. at that time, the railroad had been there. that was quite a place. in about 1960, he had just turned 18. everything he does is he is chasing puncher of you into mexico. -- chasing poncho villa into mexico. peter: steve, we are going to drop it there. we started in tombstone and ended in france. what would you like to comment on jeff: i think steve, like a lot of americans, his family has been part of history for so long. it is wonderful he knows about that. it makes it more fun to learn about how these different things evolve. but he comes from a colorful family. peter: what steve reminded me of calling from kansas were two things -- the texas cattle drives and the term texas rangers, which did not have the same connotation, along with cowboys, that it does today. jeff: i will say this. in the history of different organizations, the fact that they they sometimes enter horrific periods when they do things that are unconscionable does not mean they do not have other areas when they are everything we want to believe they are. it so happens that in eras of the texas rangers that i have written about, they are worse than the desperados they are methodically executing. i have respect for the organization, but i have the truth and that can be uncomfortable. as far as cowboys are concerned, i am a great dallas cowboys fan, but the original term was meant to be an insult. if you call somebody a cowboy in the early frontier, you were saying he is so disgusting he is outside normal society. it was only after western history was built up that cowboy became a nice term. but you folks who call yourselves cowboys might want to look into where the term came from. peter: doug in mississippi, go ahead. dog? -- doug? we will end it there. we could not hear from doug, to let you and i were talking about book festivals prior to the show starting. you were mentioning tucson, where we are now, and the mississippi book festival, which is held every august in jackson. jeff: when you do it out of state book festivals, it is inevitable you will develop some favorites. i cannot think of an author who does not being invited to the tucson book festival. it is wonderful. the crowds are friendly. it is the best organized festival. i could be here for a week and still look forward to every day. the mississippi book festival is up-and-coming but shows every sign of becoming great. it is well organized and takes place on the grounds of the state capitol. it is a beautiful setting. i hope everybody who loves to read gets a chance to go there. peter: for the past two hours, we have been talking with jeff guinn. here is his most recent book, "w aco, david koresh, the branch davidian >> welcome to the 2023 tuscon festival of books. i'm jim

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