you about winston. it's been a lovely day and a half. we're more than experts on the family life of winston churchill. and it was very exciting yesterday to hear lady williams talking about what it was like to be a secretary at chart well. and part of the project we're doing we plan to open the secretary room in 2020. so if you want to hear more about that, there's something in your pack act the project. in terms of churchill and island. i was thinking what we had in the collection. about that. we have a gift from london. of a replica of one of my favorite items in the house. in the library. i was really interested yesterday to start to hear a little bit about churchill's relationship with attlee. we'll hear more about that now. so we have another family of writers like the churchills here. we have the bews with us this morning. we have lord bew. professor of politics at queen university in belfast. and we have john. who is professor of -- i have that wrong. so lord bew is the politics expert. and john is the history professor and foreign affairs and award winning historian. they'll give us an excellent take this morning. starting off with john. can we have a big warm welcome for the bews. >> thank you. can everybody hear me okay? okay. i'd like to thank again the organizers for a fantastic conference so far. it's been wonderful at many levels and particular to myself to michael bishop who extended an invitation to me. and it's doubly a pleasure. because 2012 we first met. about six people turned up at and michael was one. we stayed in touch. he was with me at my darkest hour. if you'd like. it's very nice to be here. my father and i were discussing this to break up the talk and hopefully it will be something of a confers. while we're related our books are not. so we have the discussion as to who to go firs. on the basis of the youth and book sales went for me. he will no doubt interrupt at various points. i want to talk about the relationship that clement attlee had with churchill. and more specifically because we are in a churchill conference i want to talk about the insight i think attlee offers about churchills character. and particularly strategy during the second world war. i can start talking about churchill and attlee through many antidotes. some true. that churchill said for example that attlee was a modest man with much to be modest about. or a sheep in wolves clothing. or the famous one that's too crude to mention. i must do anyway. the story of them entering in the war cabinet. where apparently winston shuffled off to one corner and attlee said unusually modest for you. to churchill replies any time you socialist see something big you want to nationalize it. i'm not sure how much any of this is true. just to say while there's lots of disparaging remarks attributed to churchill about attlee. he would never allow anyone else to disparage him in his company. and would reply and say no, he's a great patriot. do not ever criticize him in my company. there's a really close relationship that extends to the later portion of their life. my favorite story as winston got dafr. attlee sat by his side and talked to him by him. and churchill couldn't hear anything back. but that says perhaps something about the relationship. that actually has a number of interesting punctuation points and goes back to the fact that the first connection between churchill and attlee is they shared a governor. the home schooler. who didn't last very long with churchill. attlee told this story of how the bell would come ringing from churchill's room when he was in his governess. and the maid come running in saying what's wrong. winston replied she's very cross. please remove her from the room. that's the first connection. there's a familiarity there. the second connection is attlee was a conservative. and imperialist. in his skill days. and the one thing for which he ever got in trouble in school was celebrating the relief of lady smith. he was reading the reports from that. that's when he became aware of churchill. it was nine years between them. secondly when churchill was elected and 1900. attlee remembered reading about this young rising star of our party. he was a conservative. by 1911 interestingly churchill was home secretary sends in the army to deal with an incident with a series of anarchists. attlee is there watching it going on. as a social worker and socialist in the local community. his own career transformed. this odd scene of churchill with his top hat and cane ordering the army. and attlee with the working class really is a very striking one. and also lord o wen talked about this. five years later attlee find himself fighting in churchills campaign. sp he's the second last man off the beat. i will let my father come in here. i'll come back to it. he has a point to make. >> we talk about the act. i agree with everything that i have heard. but i want to add one point. it's very important for islands. not just australian who died there. it's a good section of the soldiers who died more importantly the type of soldier. the society. the modern unionist the moderate nationalist. who joined up and died. it's the particular group. it's really the society. and professional background and so on. they die in their droves. why i want to make this point is churchill always he knew some of the people. and major who dies had been imprisoned in the same cell. he knew him he would have known the sons. if you look at the plaque in west minister hall there's many sons. as other mainstream british parties. he knew these people and says very little about it. he always writes a lot about irish military. how great soldiers the irish are. in in 1921 when you get the troubles and the awful violence and the secretaryism and the -- he says where are the decent irishmen i knew? where are the same moderates on both sides? the answer i'm afraid is a lot of them are dead. it's something he never really faces up to. >> pick up from that. attlee is hugely pride to a fault. he's carried off the battlefield three times. and a major part of the political identity. it distinguishes him in the labor movement. huge part of the relationship with churchill there after. even when they are having strife and argument in the 1920s. attlee is always prepeared to say i'm prepared to give the devil his. churchill was right. to the extent he says it's the one great strategic idea in the last war. it sets the tone for the relationship between them. you can imagine the meeting in the lobby. they do meet over the course of the 20s and 30s. and have a respect between them. the major and the man who sent the major to this part of the world. and one thing is striking in his k correspondent. winston looms so large he's kind of a point of reference. even when he seemed to be out in the cold. he's referred to. attlee thinks winston is completely off the mark on things like india. the stars start to align over the 30s. they share ultimately a similar world view. many on the last attlee believes in the same core western values as churchill does. when it comes to the crunch and he's not apology for. he doesn't bat his eyes. those core sort of sense of western energetic by partisan ship starts over the course of the 30s. by the time you come to may 1940, the famous cartoon which some maybe aware of. called all behind you winston. and it has the coalition government loining up behind churchill. as he rolls up his sheaves and marching into battle. that was attlee's proudest moment. attlee writes a letter to low. and he asks for the original copy. and later when low puts it up. attlee's wife insisted they have the copy back. it's his proudest moment to step into the wartime coalition with churchill in 1940. it's not just that relationship means a sort of broader and large respect for churchill strategic mind. it shapes how attlee guides the labor into the wartime coalition. he says a few things about glip lee. the reason he thinks it's badly organized and the first war was due to progeneral ship. and political squabbling at home. and the first thing he says to churchill is that i will not squabble over seats. you give me whatever seat you want. and we'll proceed from that basis. he has a strong view internal struggling and causing issues or jostling for advantage in the wartime coalition is not the way to proceed. by the way he's under immense pressure from the party to do that. and he's always sticking and backing with churchill. it's colleague says basically comes to the conclusion that attlee had decided right at the start of war to back winston on all decisions. as much as we talk about the great success story. 40 to 42 the war doesn't go well for britain and churchill. and there are plenty of shots circling around him. including those like lord beaver brook. who are supposed to be closest to him. it's not just during the last flashes of appeasement. it's through all those early major decisions. and that relationship is crucial. attlee needs to be given his due. and churchill did appreciate him. because who is criticizing attlee for being to churchill. now you can say he does so because he's a simplistic thinker or too -- that's what his party said. that's what the general said. i have to suggest that actually attlee had a broader appreciation of what he called higher strategy. which distinguished churchill from the generals in particular the chief general staff who had a more limited conception of strategy. and also attlee understood that churchill had a better appreciation and understanding of what he calls the precurious balance of coalition warfare. in particular the key generals. he feels attlee they didn't appreciate the difficulty of getting the americans into the war. and the necessity of steering them towards key strategy theaters that britain values. and this goes to the point i heard roberts make. which is that act of american statesman ship the decision to fight first in europe is the most selfless act of statesman ship in the 20th century. it is not an inevident blt. and attlee following churchill believes that churchill managed to achieve this finally balanced coalition through the effective rels relationship with the americans. and it's his generals who sometimes why squabbling and complaining about eisenhowers command jeopardize it. that's the first level of appreciation. secondly attlee understands that with the key maneuvers in the war the politic of churchill is doing. therefore he supports things that the generals regard as quite ub surd. like the suggested campaign. attention grabbing, eye agenda setting political maneuvers that churchill wants to try at various poipts. back to the quote that under churchill britain this essentially one army in three theaters simultaneous. attlee appreciates and understands what churchill is trying to do. which is set the political agenda. and the big example is britain leading the invasion of italy. churchill turns to attlee at various points and say they respect us now. the political optics of the maneuvers attlee has a refined appreciation. i'll hand it over to my father. attlee is responsible for one of the most insooifs and interesting quotes about churchill. he said i used to compare him to one of those. he had a 17th century lair. and 19th century lair. and sometimes a 20th century lair. the thing was you're never sure which lair was upmost. >> thank you, john. that last comment about the remind me of a different variant. the irish ambassador in london. and had a meeting sp said to him, he had known churchill a long time. backed him in politics in the first decade of the 20th century. so it was a long standing relationship. he says he stuck in the 18th century now. and said you just don't understand even in india he really gets it. his commitment is to -- he knows what's going to have to come after this war. you're just falling for this image of a -- actually he says stuck in the 18th sempbl ri. falling for something that's not really there. he knows exactly what's going to happen. including with india. and very interesting conversation. and he's not. and to add to that document i came across after finishing the book. telegraph of churchill in september 1943. saying if island comes in now we will support irish unity because he thinks that the union is go along with that. because island demonstrated british war effort. everything will change and i'm quite happy to support irish unity. there are other people in the cabinet saying don't play with us. as the war went on it became clear who was going to win. nations started to declare war on hitler. british cabinets they can see the people leaping into the spoils. they discuss what do we do here? being neutral. having many respects objectively headed the german war effort. had lost their lives because of lack of irish facilities. and but what we do is they die. most of the cabinets are holding churchill back. they don't come in. and he makes this speech which is so critical and so -- we talk about frolishing with hitler and saying the light to freedom is only preserved by the fact that northern ireland and the union part of the north remained part of the war. and american soldiers would be stationed there. military facilities and so on. vital to the war. so there is a problem here. because for the talk because john when he talks about attlee is talking about somebody who really did engage with churchill. when i talk about churchill. for all his life engaged with ireland. but fascinated by it. ireland has a colder relationship with churchill. that's the unevenness between the two talks. to return to the beginning. churchill's whole life is has these significant irish phases many it. his first public appearance in dublin. his father is working as an aid to the lord. grandfather. i read the newspaper report of this child and the dublin press making. everybody thought the most beautiful portrait they had seen. from that moment on, he put dublin stories he told by his nanny. more importantly he remembers the present he received from thomas burke. who was the top civil servant. who was he says i can't remember what he looked like. i remember the drum. that l that links him to the most important assassination. there's always this emotional connection. he has cousins in ireland. and roughly of the nationalist side. and one of whom is very much on the unionist side. standing for parliament in all the time these families standing engaged in high level of toll picks in all the time churchill is involved no politics. after he joins the liberals, churchill gradually becomes a accepting of the broad liberal view that home rule is right for ireland. it's a slow process. when he first joins the liberals and switches. i don't really believe. over the next few years up to 1910 irish national is pick up on it. he becomes more identified sympathy for the home rule cause. he mimics in some way broadly speaking his career after his father. a very crude way to look at it. his father started as a strong unionist. then had a flirtation with irish nationalism in the 1880s. or engagement. and reverted to being a strong unionist. in some ways churchill career has the same structure. he starts as a strong unionist. and has an engagement with nationalism. and then in his later career is a identified more with unionism. all the time you know after a very strong statement. so it all the time this is complicated messaging. but that's the broad picture. and he follows his fathers path. unionist first and engagement with nationalism. and of course america is important here. not the only reason why he's so interested in. he does think of the irish as a principle part of the english speaking people. the importance of the irish in american politics. very important in holding roosevelt back from engagement in the war. because that was the sells point with the nazi. we can hold back america. sdp because of the control of this population. he's aware of all this, he gives up in the end. 1937 he writes a piece in which he says i always wanted the irish to be a part of the english speaking people. it's not happening. there's a book review. it's not happening. in 1938 he writes about absolutely brilliant. and he did consult with his cousin. it's a brilliant essay. which really is superior to most of the subsequent academic over the next 50 years. one of the things about that is as a boy he had seen parliament. he had been taken in by his father. and the great contemporaries are people he had known. the great irish nationalist leader. one of the things about is this. it sees the conservative side. which is what attracted churchill's father. to why there was a close relationship for a year or so. he sees this clearly in a way many historians missed for decades. a brilliant essay. but he's writing his people have said this. end of 1930s and saying i was really important. i dealt with it. for 40 years it. convulsed it. and different issues arose. there was almost a civil war. i was in on that. i worked on that. actually probably made a will the of mistakes in his handling of that. he would switch around from one position to another. then i dealt with the war. brought that to a reasonable compromised conclusion. and widely respected for doing that. but actually says everybody has forgotten what i did. everybody forgot about island. a small place of a collection of agriculture communities gathered together for no purpose. it's also here am i winston churchill. this was big stuff. i was heavily involved in it. and certainly in 1921, 22. played a major role in switching off this war. which looked as if it was getting completely and utterly out of control. he played a role. this is interesting. we talk about this. churchill and violence and war. and peace equally valued and strong in knowing when to make the switch. he is the drive the you can't give way to the ira and rough methods have to be used. it's a dirty war. and he faces up to this. he doesn't hide from this. he says we're doing terrible things. and propaganda. so it's absolutely intense. and when he thinks by enough application of dirty war against dirty war, that they're going to compromise, and they're not going to push for an irish republic. and not going to push to take over the island. in churchill's view that prospect meant a civil war. dragging in america he would say. so when you get them to compromise on those two big things and accept. and you he's one of the first people. he's in the minority in the cabinet. we fought hard enough long enough they now know we're not a push over. now we go for the deal. he's way ahead of the most of the people. including people you would not expect in the cabinet. well known people. so it's the we fight you really fight. again you reach the point where you calculate. you can get a compromise and go for it. he writes about this later on. he's writing about the irish leader he makes the deal with. he's talking to about that, he writes an article ten years later recalling on this. he recalls the bravery sticking with the deal. churchill clearly observant of this knows this. he talks about the end of the war. and recalls castle ray. who he is connected by family. the greatest british foreign secretary. he immediately says that's it now, no more punishment of the french people. we have to make the break. and says this is what you have to do. and the trouble the difficulty is, at the end of war at the end of conflict it's the hardest struggle is with yourself. it's a new era. it's a brilliant essay. in which he recalls this. and the about germany. about the bitterness. this is what the kind of part of churchill's broader international legacy. in which ireland played a big part in flowing and forming into the wait he thinks about these things. it's there all his life. in the 30s he's isolated. this bitterness. i did great work in this area and nobody cares. i'll tell you anyway. i was really heavily involved nd this stuff. when the war comes along, how he dislike irish neutrality and the reason. they're really military reasons for disliking it. there's no question in my mind. it was reasonable to say island is so divided politically. that's a reasonable thing to say. the deal wasn't a bad deal. really given the divisions of irish society which britain is partly responsible for, you can't do bert than that. there's no doubt that thousands of british sailors died because the decision was made by in the 1938 to actually rewrite churchills deal with collins. and give back troetty ports. the naval ports britain ha in ireland. no question churchill bitterly denounced it. everything he says about that deal was justified. chamberlain was motivated by. i want to send the signal sot germans. let's not have a war. that's a big part of chamberlains calculation. which churchill can see as bonus and not likely to work. this is the key thing even with who was the irish leader. he hated the most. because he regards him as having undone churchills deal. quite accurately. in 1953. and lady williams is here. kind enough to come she was there. when churchill our friendly meeting in 1953. in downing street. there was a certain type of low key reconciliation. so always without there's an emotional engagement. always a massive respect for irish soldiers. this is why he talks about the irish. one of whom ironically is actually english. because what this he's a tear away. at one point left the army deserted and wanted to rejoin. and took an irish laborers papers and joined. churchill thought he was doing making a great gesture. we're talking about the wonderfully brave. but actually this guy was from brad ford. so there's -- but that's in that case he wasn't accurate. but as you know all leading generals are irish. the fighting broks he road in with. brooks. churchill has intense respect for irish war like capacities. the literal capacities in 1948 towards the end. in which he engages with his father and has -- the dream is provoked by somebody sending mem ra peel ya from belfast. and to his father's role in belfast. and many people argue churchill was dancing on his fathers grave. when he went in 1912 he was basically on the nationalist side. moderate side. when he went and his father went in 85 he was on the unionist side. he was sent memorabilia. that's what the dream is about. they talk about lots of things. when you consider what a small place ireland is. when you consider all the massive issues that churchill was engaged in. that shows you the importance emotionally that ireland had for churchill. >> just one more point. he says in the dream he's discussing his relationship with socialist. his father says you're in government with socialist? and he says they wear tank tops and they're badly dressed. you wouldn't believe it they're completely royalist. and not that difficult at all. that's what he says about the socialist. on the irish comparison. he fights with furiousty. and the comparison comes up later in the second world war. what attlee says quite striking. had compares him to britains various wartime leaders and says he's the most superior of all the war toim leaders in history. attlee says this in 43. comparing to different possible alternatives. cromwell was a better soldier. but if you compare to the wartime leaders, pit. and the french revolution. didn't really speak for england. sufficiently. lloyd george while he was a wartime leader in the second pors of the first world war, failed on the grinds he didn't have enough military knowledge to push back against the generals. when they were making mistakes. and the difference with churchill he combines the understanding of the political optics of war with the sufficient knowledge of strategy. and war fighting in itself. what attlee says of churchill which i think is very good before we open up for questions. is a war leader in the democratic edge must be more than a warrior. he must be a beacon. and says later on winston you offered blood, toil, sweat and tears and we took your offer. a remarkable understanding of winston strength that it's too says si to dismiss attlee for being weak in the presence. we have time for some questions. either on churchill. >> have you read the story about cromwell and churchill meeting in the restroom. crossing paths. >> there's a mic coming. >> a story of collins and churchill meeting in the lavatory during the negotiations. i heard an actor tell the story. the other question i had i read various conflict accounts of dhils role in the creation of the plaque ask tans. i want to see what the real story is. >> i'm not sure about the actors story. but kl lins and churchill met privately during this time. and again the example of the importance of ireland to churchill. it's the painter. churchill thinks i'm not good at this. and the they say stick at it. which he was a great relaxation for him. and grateful for making him stick at it. he would meet collins there. at the house. and collins there's a number of close intimate meetings. and a number of engagements in which churchill probably said unwise things. so taken with collins as a character. probably went too far in terms of the type of offers he was prepared to make. in the end it all stabilized for a variety of reasons. there's no question. quite an intimate emotionally kelkt connected relationship between the men. on the of course churchill knew he found somebody who was brave enough to make this compromise stick. the of the your other question about the black and tans. i'm making this quite clear. i'll try to do it by shorthand. churchill is behind the repression in ireland. he sends over winter. and the argument is very schism. this is a dirty war. organized by boon ris. it's not much classical military engagement. some do occur. it's shooting the local police walking down the street. this is the real color of the war. and there's only one way of dealing with this. by basically deal with this assassination by counter asays nation. he's frank about this. you cannot allow men there's 200 murders and nobody brought to justice. you cannot allow. men are not going to accept that their commanding officer has been shot dead and that's fine. something has to happen. you may hate this, but this is what it's about. dealing with dirty war. by the means of a dirty war. also promising if you get it through your head you have to compromise. we're right. the deals on. and collins accepts. there's churchill stands over very brutal methods and look what the ira is doing. brutal. by the way it's fairly surgical. what's quite interesting british intention is not defeated. despite the heavy blow in november. the assassinations what we call today targeted and effective. very, very important to understand this. his hands are on. if he was in this room now he would acknowledge this. >> both of you are very distinguished historians. you do so much more. lord played a role in the good friday agreement that brought peace to ireland and john is a prolific commenter in the. in some ways you personify the mission of the international churchill society. and i wonder if you could comment on how your historical sense informed your engagement with current affairs. >> well i would say one thing about the good friday agreement. fundamental efs aware if you look at churchills historical -- i have said it's just april i can't. in general if you look at the historical book. they're very thoughtful. very, very determined to be just to irish causes. irish emotions. very, very impressive. and he always stands for a principle. which is actually the best out come is a united ireland. closely linked to britain. a friend to britain. if i can't have it, then the consent principle rules. and the consent principle means the large minority or unionism should not have to come under irish government. to be honest, that is the principle that wins out in the good friday agreement. he's all for corporation. all the things that we agree to in the good friday agreement and institutions. they are modelled in the churchill collins pacts. met in listen don and january 1922. if you want to an easy kind of list of one of the areas that the ireland is are the areas, t island's divided but there should be cooperation, it's all there with churchill. churchill allows an easy answer to this. i honestly think it's perfectly clear and a logical argument to say that the type of historic compromise that we have in ireland today is kind of rickety at the moment for a variety of reasons but nonetheless has endured for almost 20 years since the good friday agreement reflects churchill's thinking on the matter. and his deep reading on the subject, he wrote to stephen gwynn, who was the cleverest of the irish nationalist mps and most intellectual. it reflects his engagement with irish history. and i say the quality of what he writes about irish history is absolutely extraordinary. >> just to answer that by way of anecdote, the importance of history and understanding, current international challenges of making a foreign policy, is that it is the airreducible factor in those calculations already. it's not that you need a historian to come tell people how to act or to unlearn examples they have before. just by way of anecdote is in a state department archives which i was looking through recently for a separate project to find a discussion that henry kissinger and richard nixon had a year to the day after nixon's election as president. when he's reflecting on the moon landings, talking about a revolutionary change in british foreign policy -- in american foreign policy and they talk about the books they're reading at that crucial moment in time. what are nixon and kissinger reading together? they're reading h.g. wells, man in the moon, teddy roosevelt's use of the white man's burden, a phrase people are understandably allergic to. this is 1969. the example of britain early 1th century, 20th century, faced with the threat of germany, they discussed at great length. castleray back in the 19th century. then they go to book to book which many of you will know by lawrence thompson, professor of university at california at the time, a signologist about 1940, about britain's darkest hour, and nixon and kissinger reach for churchill and they reach for churchill for precisely the purpose we heard about a lot today, churchill's later career, where there is this yearning for peace and order and stability, something that goes beyond immediate triumph. it's not that the historians decided we must apply history or we've forgotten the lessons. it's that this is a living breathing calculation. obviously certain areas without naming names, history looms larger in the consciousness of a president or a secretary of state in different eras but it is a living breathing historical force in all this. it's there for churchill. it's there for many thereafter. so i think that's the way to think about it. >> thank you, lord bu. thank you, professor bue. c-span. where history unfolds daily. in 1979 c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. more on the life and career of winston church until just a moment, but first we want to tell you about wednesday night. there will be more american history tv in primetime with a focus on the legacy of the nation's 35th president, john f. kennedy. that begins at 8:00 p.m. eastern. president franklin d. roosevelt proclaimed a national day of prayer for january 1st, 1942 following the japanese