churchillians sharing stories and planning out what inspired you about winston has been a lovely day and a half. we are more than experts on the family life of winston churchill. it was very exciting yesterday to hear celia and lady williams talking about what it was like to be a secretary. part of the project we are doing, we plan to open the secretary's room in 2020. if you want to hear more about that, i terms of churchill and i, was trying to think of what we had in the collection. we got a gift from londonderry of a replica, it's one of my favorite items in the house. i was interested yesterday to start to hear a little bit about churchill's relationship with attlee, we will hear a lot more about that. we have another family of -- brs, we have the view ews with us. , professor ofew politics at belfast. bew, who isjohn -- i have that wrong. bew is our politics expert, and john bew is history professor. they are going to give a talk this morning, starting off with john. [applause] >> can everybody hear me ok? i want to thank the organizers for a fantastic conference so far. it has been wonderful at many levels. i'm doubly a pleasure, it was in 2012 we first met. six people turned up, michael was one of them. we have stayed in touch since then. it's very nice to be heard today. my father and i were discussing how to break up our talk, hopefully it will be something like a conversation. we are related, our books are not related. our discussion was who to go first. we went with me. he will note i interrupt that he will interrupt at various points. i want to talk about the relationship with clement attlee and winston churchill. i want to talk about the insight i think attlee offered about churchill's character and strategy during the second world war. i can start talking about churchill and attlee through .any antidotes churchill said attlee was a modest man with much to be modest about. ,r a sheep in wolf's clothing or the famous one that is perhaps too crude to mention. thestory of them entering work evident during the second world war, were apparently winston shuffled off to one corner and said i'm modest to you, to which churchill replied anytime you see something big you want to nationalize it. true,t sure if this is while there was a lot of , theraging remarks interesting thing is churchill would never allow anyone else to speak despairing of attlee. allete is a great patriot. relationshipose that extends to the latter portion of their lives. ,ne of my favorite stories attlee would stick by his side and churchill could hear anything back. that says something about the relationship. it has a number of interesting punctuation points. it goes back to the fact that the first connection between them is that they shared a governess, who was a homeschooler, who didn't last very long. attlees used to tell a story -- this story. the mayor would come in saying what's wrong, with kenwood replied she is very cross, please remove her from the room. thatecond connection is attlee was a conservative, and a peer. for one thing he got in trouble was overzealously celebrating , he wasase of ladysmith reading winston churchill's reports. that's when he became aware of churchill. when churchill was elected, at least remembered reading about -- atlee remembered reading about him. by 1911, this is perhaps my favorite connection between the two. attlee is there watching it andg on as a social worker socialist in the local community. this odd scene of churchill with his top hat and cane ordering the army and attlee on the other side with the working classes. it really is a very striking one. five years later, attlee finds himself fighting in churchill's campaign. he is the second man deserved. i will let my father come in here, it's important that i will come back to it. >> we have talked a bit about it. i agree with everything that is heard. point, it'sd one , it'smportant for ireland a good section of the soldiers who died are irish. it's the type of soldiers. nationalist who joined up and died. as a particular group that is the floor of our society. they die in droves. churchill knew some of these , he would have known the sons of irish mps who died. you will see there are many sons of irish that died. people, he says very little about it. aboutays writes a lot irish military prowess. is ingnificance of this 1921, when you get the troubles in ireland, the bitterness and 70, organized noble energy. where are thesays decent irishman, worker the moderates on both sides. the answer is a lot of them were dead. that's something he never really faces up to. attlee is carried off of the battlefield three times in the first world war. it becomes a major part of his political identity, distally sent from the -- distinguishes him. the relationship with churchill thereafter. when they are having arguments attlee is always prepared to give the devil his due, churchill was right about gallipoli. mattered wasy that it set the tone for the relationship between them. you can imagine the meeting. they do meet over the course of the 20's and 30's. they have this respect. is iting that is striking blows up the idea of the wilderness years, in his letters to his family, winston looms so large throughout the 30's, and a point of reference, he's constantly referred to. is off theks winston mark. on the last near after attlee believes in the same. he is an apologist for to tellier and is him, -- total is arianism. sensors western energetic bipartisanship really starts. come to mayyou calledhis famous cartoon all behind you winston, it has the coalition government lining up behind him as he rolls up his sleeves and marches into battle. he asked for the original. and later when he went up for an exhibition, his wife insisted it is his proudest moments to step into the work from coalition in 1940. it's not just that relationship that means a broader and large respect for churchill's mind, it shapes the labor into the war from coalition. he says a few things about gallipoli, he says there's a reason he thinks why it was badly organized, due to generalship and squabbling at home. the first thing he says to churchill is i will not squabble over things, i was on old gallipoli man, you give me whatever seat you want. he has a strong view of internal struggling and causing issues, jostling for advantage is not the way to proceed. he is under immense pressure from his party to do precisely that throughout the war. he is always sticking and backing with churchill, his colleague comes to the conclusion that at least decided right -- attlee decided right. is 40, the war does not go well for winston. there are plenty of shocks -- sharks circling around them. last,ot just during the and attlee backed churchill, it was all the major strategic decisions. that relationship is actually crucial. churchill did appreciate him on all of his strategic decisions. who is criticizing attlee? also the generals, atlee backs churchill against them. you can say he does so because he is a simplistic drinker -- simplistic think are asked in plastic finger. strategy, which distinguished churchill from the staff, believe i had a more limited conception of strategy. a bettereast had appreciation and understanding of what he calls the precarious balance of coalition in warfare. heparticular, the generals, feels that they did not appreciate the difficulties of getting america into the war, but also the necessity of spearing them towards strategic theaters never in valleys more importantly. this comes to the point which is that active american statesmanship, the decision to fight first in europe is the most selfless act of statement ship, but not an inevitability. him following churchill release if he has to achieve, through this affective relationship with americans across the piece. who were squabbling or complaining about eisenhower postern --'s command. secondly, attlee understands with the key strategic maneuvers, the politics of what churchill is doing. therefore, he supports things that generals regard as absurd. the attention grabbing, agenda setting maneuvers that churchill wants to try. under churchill, britain had one army engaged in three theaters. attlee appreciates and understand what churchill is trying to do, set the critical agenda. in big example is written the invasion of italy. britain in the invasion of italy. i think attlee had a refined appreciation. i'm going to hand it to my father to say attlee is responsible for one of the most incisive and interesting quotes about churchill. he said i used to compare him to one of those layer cakes, he had a 17th century layer, 18 century layer, 19th-century layer, sometimes even a 20th century layer. the thing about him, you are never sure which layer was up the most. that reminds me of a different layer into the cake. -- thesh and better irish ambassador stance towards him during the war and a meeting. time andown him a long backed him in politics in the 20th century. it was a long-standing relationship. he says he stuck in the 18th century due to some of the things which i will come back to. he said you just don't understand he really gets it. he knows what's going to have to come after this war. you are falling for this image of a 19th -- he's stuck in the 18 century. you are falling for something which is not really there in style and substance. churchill knows exactly what is going to happen. very interesting conversation. to add to that, after finishing the book. the telegraph from churchill in 1943, at if ireland comes in now, we will support him whether he thinks the union -- britishhas demonstrated were for. everything will change. lot that don't play with this. on, nations all of the world started to declare war on hitler's. they can see these people leaving them the spoils. neutral, many respects objectively exit the german war effort. what we do, they certainly die. most of the captains are holding churchill back there. by the end of the work, he is in the same position. they don't come in as he makes his speech. about the quality with hitler's. and says the light of freedom is only preserved by the fact that northern ireland is part of the more -- the war. photos could be staying there. which were vital to the war in the atlantic. there is a problem here. for this talk. john, when he talks about attlee 's talking about somebody who did engage sympathetically what churchill. when i talk about ireland churchill, churchill for all of his life engaged with island, was fascinated by it. ireland has a colder and more ambiguous relationship with churchill. the unevenness between the two talks. beginning,o the churchill's whole life is -- has the significant iris phases in it. his first public appearance is in dublin, his father is working in dublin. churchill's grandfather, a portrait to the dublin press. about this child in the dublin press in 1878, not everybody thought it was the most pitiful child they had ever seen. on, he hadoment stories. more importantly, he said he remembered the present he received from thomas burke, a top civil servant. that leads churchill to the most important assassination of the 19th century, in 1882 in the phoenix park. all these, dashes cousins in , one of whom is very much on the side. standing for parliament in all engaged, these families a high level in politics in all the time he is involved in politics. after he joined the liberals, churchill gradually becomes accepting of the broad liberal view that hold rule is right. when he first joins the liberals, he says i'm making the switch, but i don't believe liberals are right for ireland. over the next few years, irish nationalists picked up on it, he becomes more identified. he mimics in some way broadly speaking,, his career of his father. this is a sketchy way to look at it. his father is a very strong unionist, then had a flirtation with irish nationalism in the late 1980's -- 1880's. and he reverted to being a strong unionist. in some ways, churchill has the same structure. he started off as a strong unionist, then had an engagement , then inh nationalism his later career is identified more with unionism. all the time there are shades to this, after a very strong, there is a run the message sent to the irish embassy. time, that's the broad picture, and he follows his --low -- his father's passed his father's path. it's not the only reason why he's so interested, why yet to make concessions, he does think of the irish as a principal part of the english speaking people. therefore, we will talk about that for example, the importance of the irish in american politics, very important. to holding him back from engaging in the war. wet was the selling point, can hold back america because of our control of this population. this, heof all of gives up in the end. he writes a piece in which he says i have always wanted the to be part of it, but that's not happening. essay which is absolutely brilliant. he did it with his cousin will have a lot of knowledge of irish nationalism. it's a brilliant essay which is superior to most of the subsequent academic historiography of ireland for the next 50 years. one of the things about that , there's a boy who was , greateland contemporaries are all people we know at some level or have seen. in this case, hit seen it down in 1881. one of the things is is not just the greatness, it's brilliance is it sees the conservative side of ireland, which is what attracted churchill's father to him. clearly in the way many historians miss for decades. alsolliant essay, but meant for churchill. at the end of the 1930's, he is saying ireland is really important. it's thears parliament. from 1880-1920, it convulses. these difficult issues arose during the home rule crisis, i was in on that, i worked on that. actually, probably made quite a lot of mistakes in the timing of that. switched around from one position to another. war,i dealt with the ira back to a reasonable compromise seclusion. this conference, he was widely expected for doing that. he describes it in 1938 as a collection of agricultural parties gather together for no significant purpose. it's not just the kind of job of here are mymes, winston churchill, this is big stuff. i was heavily involved in it. played a in 1921, major role in switching off this war, which looked as if it was getting completely and utterly out of control. this is the interesting thing, we have talked about this. in these, equally valiant and strong and knowing when to make the switch. he is driving the british decision. -- british position. you can only fight. he faces up to this, he doesn't hide from this. , heays we are doing this said openly we are doing terrible things. there's propaganda against the ira. whatever you say about the ira, they weren't actually cannibals. that's what he called them. thinks by enough application of dirty war against a dirty war, that they are going and not push for an irish republic, which is a humiliation to britain. they are not going to push to take over north ireland with one million people. in his view, that prospect lead to civil war added one item. dragging in america. when you get to compromise on and you meetngs, back, each one of the very first people. he is in the minority in the cabinet, we fought them hard enough that they know we are not a pushover. now we go to the deal. he is way ahead of most of them, people you would not expect in the cabinet, well-known liberals or soft type people. you fight, then you reach the point where you can't kill it. you can get a compromise, and you go for it. he's right about this he makes the deal. that, he talking about writes an article 10 years later, he calls the bravery sticking to the deal, because it caused his life. observant ofarly all of this, knows this. he recalls cats are a, who is connected. sayse recalls him and after napoleon is defeated, he fromiately says no more the french people. he says this is what you have to do. of difficulty is at the end war and conflict, it's the hardest struggle with yourself. it's a brilliant essay. , we heard this yesterday about germany, when i saw the rebel the japanese people left me. churchill'srt of broader intellectual legacy which ireland has played a big farm of performing the way he thinks about -- big part of performing the way he thinks about these things. i was really heavily involved in this stuff. up, hee work comes explained how he disliked irish neutrality. they are real military reasons for disliking it. there is no question in my mind. it's reasonable to say ireland was so divided, it could and never come to bring inside. that is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. the types of support, irish who were able to join up could not have done this. the deal wasn't a bad deal. a lot of irish workers went to england and played a major world -- role in wartime productions. irishthe divisions in society, which britain is at least partly responsible for, you can't do better than that. there is equally no doubt that thousands of british sailors died because the decision was rewrite1938 to actually churchill deal with collins and give back the treaty ports that britain had in ireland. there are still questions the churchill denounced him. everything he says about the deal was justified. chamberlain, was he motivated? -- the british have an 800-year-old quarrel with ireland. p two-piece deals everywhere, let's not have a war. that's a big part of chamberlain's calculations, which you can see is bogus and not likely to work. even with the valera, who was the irish leader he hated the most, he regarded as having undone church obama deal with collins, quite accurately. churchill met him and even with him there was a certain type of loki -- low key reconciliation. there's this emotional engagement, always a massive respect for irish soldiers. this is why he talks about the issh pcs, one of whom actually english. what he has done, he is an english caraway who at one point left the army, desert city effectively, then wanted to rejoin -- deserted effectively, then wanted to rejoin. churchill thought he was -- you were talking about the wonderfully brave dealings, he was -- case, as you all know all the leading generals are irish. alan brooke montgomery, john from -- churchill has this respect for irish warlike capacity. in the end of 1948, he engages with his father and -- the dream is provoked by somebody sending him memorabilia from belfast, which relates to his interest in belfast and to his father's role in belfast. many people argue that churchill was acting -- dancing on his father's grave. when he went to belfast, he was on the nationalist side. his father went on the union aside. that's what the dream is about, the conversation -- his father talked about a lot of things, history, where he was socialist, when you consider what a small place island is, the amount of time given in the dream and the engagement. all the massive issues that churchill has engaged in, that shows you the importance emotionally that island always had for churchill. john: his father comes back and says, you are a socialist? he says, they are badly dressed, but they are completely royalists and they aren't bad at all. irish cromwell comparison. he fights the war with ferocity. this is where the cromwell comparison comes up in the second world war with military strategy. he compares them to the various war crime leaders, and says he is the most. . -- he is the most superior. cromwell is a better soldier because marlborough was a better strategist. but if you compare to the wartime leaders, william pitt in the napoleonic and french revolutionary wars didn't speak for england sufficiently. failed that he didn't have enough military knowledge to push against the generals when they were making mistakes. the difference is church help combined -- churchill combined the sufficient knowledge of strategy and fighting itself. i think that a war leader in a democratic edge must be a beacon for his country as well. he says later on, you offered us andl -- blood, oil, sweat, tears, and we accept it. it is a remarkable understanding of winston's strength. i think we have time for some questions. >> [indiscernible] john: the mic is coming. >> there is an apocryphal story about churchill meeting him. tell theiam neeson story, so i don't know how true it is. the other question i had, i have read various conflicting accounts of churchill's role in the blackened hands -- the black in tams. i am not sure about the -- thetory, but importance of ireland to churchill. labrey.ady -- [indiscernible] it was a great relaxation for him. there is a number of close, intimate meetings, and there are a number of engagements in which churchill probably said they were taken to character and probably went too far in terms of the type of offers he was prepared to make to collins. in the end, it all stabilize for a variety of reasons. there is no point -- in this sense, liam neeson is right, it was emotionally connected relationship between those two men. they found someone who was brave enough to make this compromise stick. oddly, your other question about i am makingd tans, this quite clear. churchill is behind the repression in ireland. sets over in winter, and the argument is simple. this is a dirty war. notbasically it is classical military engagement. it is shooting the local policeman as he walks on the street. this is the real color of the ira war. there is only one way of dealing with it, basically with a policy of assassination. he is totally frank about this. there are 200 measures around and no one brought to justice. you may hate this, but this is what it is about. it is about dealing with 30 war through the means of a dirty war, but also promising if you get it through your head to compromise, we are up straight away. the deal is on. there -- churchill stands over brutal methods. look what the ira is doing, incredibly brutal. it is fairly surgical. british intelligence is not defeated by the ira, but an awful lot of wealth, despite a very heavy blow, a lot of the -- it is very important to understand this. he would acknowledge this. both of you are very distinguished historians, but you do so much more. pivotal war in a the agreement that brought peace to ireland, and john is a prolific commentator in the statesman and elsewhere in the foreign affairs. in some ways, you personify the international churchill society. i wonder if you could comment on how your historical sense informs your engagement with current affairs? would say one thing about the good friday agreement. aware -- if you look at churchill's historical words about it were brilliant. but in general, you look at the historical assessment, they are very thoughtful. just very determined to be to irish causes, irish him of since -- irish emotions. very effective. ee all stand for a principl outcome is -- the best outcome is a united ireland. if i cannot have it, then consent principle rules. that means the large minority in the northeast county should not come under an irish government. principle in the good friday agreement. agreed to ins we the good friday agreement, they are all modeled in the churchill collins pact. want an easy list of the areas where there should be cooperation, it is all there with churchill. churchill allows easy access to this. i think it is perfectly clear, and a logical argument to say that the types of historical ispromise we have in ireland -- it has endured for almost 20 years. reading on the subject -- he wrote to a man with the irish mp's. engagementlects his of irish history. the quality of what he writes about irish history is extraordinary. john: he talks about the importance of history and understanding current political challenges that it is the factor. you don't need a story and -- you don't need a historian to come give examples by way of anecdote. they are binding the discussion had.kissinger and nixon he is moon landing, talking about a revolutionary change in british foreign policy -- in american foreign-policy, and they talk about the books they are reading at that time. the nixon-kissinger readings together, the man on the moon, they are talking about teddy roosevelt's use of the white man's burden, which people are understandably allergic to today. britain in the early 20th century was faced with a threat from germany. they discussed lord hathaway. know, they you discuss a book by lawrence thompson, a professor at the university of california about britain's darkest hour, and reached forssinger churchill, and precisely for the purpose we heard about. churchill's career where he is yearning for peace and order and stability, something that goes the immediate triumph. is that this is a living, breathing calculation. historynaming names, lives larger in the history of presidents of different eras. but it is a living, breathing historical portrait. it is there for many. that is the way to think about it. >> thank you. [laughter] --[applause] you are watching american history tv, 48 hours of programming on american history every weekend on c-span3. follow us on twitter @cspanhistory for information on our schedule and to keep up with the latest history news. >> c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's public cable television companies, and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. american history tv is on c-span3 every weekend, featuring museum tours, archival films, and talks on the presidency, the civil war, and more. here is a clip from a recent program. >> hi, my name is janet donnellan. i work specifically for the vietnam veterans memorial collection, which is housed here. a facility for the national capital region. entirely inused this building. we are a collection of objects for the vietnam veterans memorial. visitors come by the memorial every day, leave objects at the memorial, which the park rangers collect, and every two weeks or so, we do a pickup at the memorial, bring them out here to our museum resource center where we sort through them and catalog them and make them part of our collection. this card was left in 2000. en.was left by all i am going to read it. aerest, it hase been over 31 years since you were taken away from me, but you remain my truest love. as i visit the memorial today, i leave with you the ring i gave theon your 18th birthday, first summer we met. always remember i love you still, even though i have married and have three beautiful children. i mourn for the family we were never given the chance to have. when of the lord takes me home, i know i will meet you again and share many memories. the collection, i feel that the of the -- the purpose wall is to help them heal, to get past things that happened in the past and remember specifically the men who died in vietnam, and this collection lends a helping hand to that. it makes the process of making helps them heal. there are things in the collection that have to do with ptsd. a lot of the tsd groups do a therapy group -- a lot of ptsd groups do a therapy group. s that give thing -- more information about a specific life. you see all the names, but the collection gives a background to it. as long as someone has left something for a specific person, we can learn more about that person's life. that is the purpose of the collection. [seagull squalling] >> you can watch this and other american history or grams on our website, where all of our videos are archived. that is c-span.org/history. kevinnext, historian ruane discusses winston churchill and the development and use of nuclear weapons. he is the author of "churchill and the bomb in war and cold war ." this event is about 45 minutes. all right, ladies and to introduce our next speaker, we have a very special lady. [applause]