political correctness and there were others who, in fact, did not even know who harriet tubman of, and various pictures harriet tubman appeared on the whornet and they were women were in fact not harriet seven. harriet summit has been a subject of children's fiction. who harrietple know tubman was. that is not the case with the american public. -- the irony was noted of having harry tuchman on the front of the $20 bill and andrew jackson on the back. as many of you know, andrew jackson was not only a slaveholder himself, but, he was oversaw indian removal and was renowned for being really an indian killer. in addition to that, many people pointed to the fact that here you have harriet tubman who was values, whosead worth was, for many people, defined by the amount of money that people paid for her. on, here she is being put perhaps the most popular symbol of american capitalism, the $20 bill. we have today some very historians who are talking with the placement of tubman on the $20 bill, and perhaps, dealing with the controversy. i will announce everyone as they speak. i don't want someone to tune into c-span and say, who is that . our first speaker is catherine .linton she is the chair of american history at the university of texas san antonio and is international research professor at queen's university belfast. her first book, the plantation mistress, woman's world in the tubman:h, and "harriet wasroad to f freedom" determined one of the best books of 2014. published over 25 books, including award-winning books toochildren such as, "i thing for america. for stevenadvisor spielberg's "lincoln." 2012 fleming lectures will be published later this year. was on thelinton committee, or, excuse me, the smithsonian summit for putting a woman on the american currency. i'm sure she will share some of her experiences on that summit. without further ado, catholic. [applause] >> i want to say it is so great to be here, think your last year for the very rousing hundred celebration, i was especially heartened by the recognition of african-american women and its inclusion. this panel is something i'm very grateful for. i want to contextualize a bit my role in this. when i began my doctoral degree in american history at princeton, it was celebrations of the u.s. bicentennial and working on african-american .ubjects and women subjects during the age of jackson, it was something really quite terrible. populating aed in woman this landscape in the 1980's, battling against academic determinism to keep women out of the academic narrative. i went into it trying to really change the narrative. steppedstopped off -- e latter to write full-time, i found that harry tubman was really languishing on children's shelf. no new work, no new writings. when i went into my son's classroom, i found the fascination with harriet up and a constant, persistent same. i was often asked questions about other types of characters. i was working on an encyclopedia article and found that the last biography had been from 1942. this, he wrote, was the subject of two dozen juvenile picture books by 1990 with children's increasingon tubman exponentially. her controversial -- contributions before 1816 were for grounded. the civilscout during war. after a few 55, she had a steady .ecord yet, the half-century following the abolition of slavery, until her death in 1913, remains relatively neglected in the juvenile accounts. tubman:ime my "harriet in road to freedom" appeared 2004, scholars think very eager .nd ready to integrate her as i said just, in my biography, she had a very adaptive persona. the back panthers celebrated her woman in arms. finally, the academy was ready to embrace her as a long-lost hero. when the women in the 20's campaign and merged, it followed ,n the wake of rosie rios president obama's appointment of u.s. treasurer, campaigning with the secretary of treasury and secretary jack lew to put women on the face of american currency. as the internet campaign raised important issues about putting women on the face of money, harry tubman was the face of 160,000 ballots cast. this was sent in may of 2000 and coincided with the new $10 bill, hadmpaign that lew conceived to ask the question, who should appear on the new american currency? over one million americans in the summer of 2015 sent in their nominees. this became, in many ways, a populist campaign to educate people on women in american history. as you may have seen, apparently the republican nominees dabbling out and debates. in the summer of 2015, additionally a campaign was launched, and there were competing agendas about who should appear on the newly redesigned bill. the secretary of treasury invited a group of scholars to discuss ongoing efforts to put a female face on the currency. this was part of several meetings around the country and the launching of the website. visited passionate opinions and heated exchanges. i was grateful to be a part of it. i presented my book to the treasure herself. rangingre specialists from early american in the 20 century to religion, women studies. ice adjusted that a woman of color must be the first female honored on any redesigned currency. i was not alone in the convention, nor the anyone who advocated that a woman was best to fit the bill. i was quite surprised that, as i felt the group tilting towards tubman, another scholar brought up the question that the american people might not be onpared to accept a mammy the money, even if it was harriet tubman. i'm not quoting exactly the full comment but it really did crystallize for those of us arguing passionately, there was, harriet tubman. she might be up against the mammy, but she was a new generation of african-american scholarship that was about this disremember -- rather than omitting. fantastic. have been her name being famous and underground railroad literature. in late 20 century, her legacy should be remembered in a very to way. like many, i followed media chatter on the topic. the secretary of treasury jacob would be and there outpouring of interest, as there was. outcry of hamilton followed. with the final decision, not only would harriet tubman the , butn the front of the $20 as wellill also appear as on the redesigned five dollars bill, you will have marian anderson, eleanor roosevelt, and martin luther king. several have controversial remarks on this, but change is really a foot. certainly, when i began my academic career, the idea that such a cheap -- seachange would happen in my lifetime, that students would come familiar tubman seem to unbelievable. vicki really is reminded her , women are capable of everything and anything. writing my biography of harry letan, i adopted the metro, 100 harriets bloom. we will have hundreds of harriet's in circulation. thank you. [applause] >> thank you. you know, i neglected to introduce myself. white.borah gray i'm testing was professor of history at rutgers university. just cameof you who in, i am introducing everyone as they speak because we are fortunate enough to have this recorded for posterity for all of us by c-span. this is a be airing -- surprise to us, but a very pleasant surprise. it will be airing at 8:00 eastern standard time on november 1. check your local listings. second presenter -- and we are going through this relatively quickly because we do want time to have an extensive question and answer period -- the second presenter is jessica millworth of university of california, irvine. slaveryarch focuses on and early america, african american history, as well as women and gender. finding charity " : enslaved and free black women in maryland" was by the university of georgia press and 2015. she is currently working on a project that discusses women'samericans experiences with sexual assault and intimate partner violence through the long 19th-century. [applause] >> i want to make sure all the apparatuses are working. >> it leans back. >> there we go. good morning. thank you all for coming today. i would like to thank my panelists because i after quick this panel together. it came out as a conversation some of us were having, actually, using modern bbf. we were texting back and forth and talking about what this bill for slaveryit meant scholars. it was quickly agreed to do a panel. we invited the rest of the members before you today. i thank you very much for joining this panel. with the u.s. treasury announced that harriet tubman would be on the $20 bill, i had a mixed reaction. just interested in the meme's that came out and some of the funny jokes. people were trying to explain how happy they were about this. one of my favorites was in black for an accurate, now people would be saying, let me hold five dollars, they would say, can i hold a tub for a week and get back to you -- as in harry tubman. that was the funny side, the joyful side. i, like many people, and very happy that an african-american woman will be on the u.s. monetary bill rate however, i also had extreme sadness. as someone who works on enslaved women, and in maryland, in particular, i was conflicted about what this means about images of public memory, about the archive of slavery, and finally, what it means about the continued commodification of black women's bodies. specifically -- i don't mean women that we know, i mean women be don't know. what is lost when the only represent one iconic person. public memory is as much about what we want to forgive as but we want to remember. historians, our job is to deal with the consequences of cause and effect as if in history. if you are assigned the role of the public historian, you speak to larger audiences, and sometimes, crucial details can be lost. what that allows to have an, as a nation, is to have cognitive dissonance. we are not into it with the steps it takes to get someone either on a boat of money or status.iconic we forget the lived experiences may have been like. for african-american women, this has a particular implication. even today, in the public imagination, public media, african-american women are still a curiosity. sometimes they are on display in music videos. now, with michelle obama in the white house, there is a different type of image. there is the strong, black family. when we look at early american slaves women as the scholar jennifer morgan notes, early travelers to africa considered african-american bodies as a monstrosity. monstrosity to be displayed on a $20 bill. we know that she ran away, she left her family, she travels back to the south several times. what is actually not spoken many of the times is harriet have been was well-versed in freedom. many of her family members were freed by will. this notion of freedom did not come out of nowhere. it had been bred into her. what we know about harry tubman is she is more well formed than other women in history. we have more complex readings of her think to some historians. this brings us to the archive. public memory, we know black women are curiosity. at one point, they are a monstrosity. this brings us to be archive. very often, african-american women are not entered into the archives. they are not deemed important enough. in other words, how do we built the story from the bottom-up? had research for women that are not supposed to be their? in my own work, i stumbled upon a woman named charity, who was enslaved in the 1700s. she earned her freedom slightly after the american revolution. she and her children's freedom and her grandchildren freedom. her family goes on to be a very and both anamily atlas baltimore, and bjork. i had to contend with the fact, issue like other black women or a exceptional? charityways, looking at and harry tubman, we seek to people, one well known, one not so well known, but their lives are intermingled in some ways. harry tubman runs away from maryland and returned. charity is enslaved in maryland, freed in maryland, and she lives in maryland. she spends her entire life in maryland. yet, here are these two women that i would argue to both be in the american canon of slavery. again, when enslaved women entered the archive, they are usually recorded as pieces of property. as free black women, we have much more information about them. we do not know how they continue to wrestle with what is called the afterlife of slavery. they wrestled with laws imposed upon them and constricting .ovement history is a restorative process. if we lose money, the $20 bill, and think about it as historical evidence and think about it in 100 years, when people go into the archive, if it lives somewhere in the cloud, i wonder what people would think about this moment, to look at harry tubman on a $20 bill at a time deeply thes. so values -- devalues black lives. we are reminded that black lives were worth more enslaved than as free people. finally, as i close, i would like to talk about how the black woman body works as its own archives. we know that history was grafted on the body whether the terms of andical punishment, everything they did in ways stop having pregnancies, to further the system of slavery. we know of course, disproportionately, they were raped. we also know that in the cases maryland, just like slavery was attached to the woman, so was freedom. they were weak moments when an asleep when i could give birth to a free child. the catch was a declaration had to be made for the child at the that some mothers freedom was declared. essentially, if mary was freed, there were provisions for her children. to return to want the issue of andrew jackson remaining on the backside of the $20 bill. in some ways, keeping andrew conceding the bill is to people who are not ready for a major change. my thoughts are two. there are countless unnamed women who hot the archives, memory, and literally, some of us because they carry the weight 's the african diaspora past. haven't black women carried enough on their backs already? must we be long hunted or injure images of slaveholders writing women from the back? [applause] >> we will discuss that later. [laughter] lashawnhird speaker is harris, professor of history at michigan state university. some of her scholarly essays appear in the journal of african american history, the journal of social history and the journal of urban history. she is the author of "sex workers, psychic, and numbers runners: black women in new york economy," published in 2015. [applause] >> good morning. thank you for inviting me to be on this panel. recently, i wrote a book that examines early 20th century black women's participation in in newerground economy york. the labor sectors served as a catalyst for working-class women creation of employment activities, activities, and survival strategies, providing financial stability and autonomy. poverty-stricken and middle-class mothers, churchgoers, and pleasure speakers, informal wage workers entered the underground economy for a host of reasons. -- includingnal black urbanization, migration, local and national downturns, family conflict, and the urban syndicate. possibility of creating new attainingtities, economic wealth, and social and sexual pleasures fueled attraction to elicit labor. black women part out niches for , laboring, often times, in the shadows. harry tubman, like urban black woman nearly six decades .ater, labored off the grid she worked as hundreds, a scout, and the spy, organizing one of the lesser known espionage networks of the 19th century. her laboring efforts as a spy are classic example of the ways madeich clandestine work it possible for the continual structure of democracy and capitalism. for topic, laboring in the shadows came at a price. she faced the possibility of being captured by confederate forces and did not reap the fruits of her labor. 20thver, like earlier century women laboring in the shadows, she was not properly compensated for her services. she was forced to rely on the includingof friends -- .iving to con artists one of the possible ways to recognize her service to the nation is by placing current on the $20 bill. by placing her on u.s. currency, it is one of commemoration. the image of her on the front of is anank bill reckon -- opportunity to re-examine her life, political activism, and civil war participation, to reiterate the importance of black women and the role that they played in the development of the nation, and most importantly, the image of tubman on the front of the bank note represents the opportunity to ask laura black women's complex relation to capitalism. [applause] >> our next speaker is tiffany , associate professor in the department of black studies and black history at the university of delaware. she is the author of beauty shop politics, african-american women in the beauty industry. subject editor and is at work on a book manuscript tentatively titled, "civil rights on vacation, international leisure travel, and the making of black global citizens." she is also a scholar in for the 2016-2017 academic year. [applause] >> thank you and good morning. bes truly an honor to invited to be on this panel, particularly, i do not work on the period of slavery. i hold my scholarly colleagues, who do the work of reconstructing black women's lives during slavery -- they are sort of my academic euros and s.roin's it is equally important and .ainstaking i decided to center my musings on the role of memory, as well as representation. mywas mentioned, much of research has been about black women, beauty culture, and representation. that is where i want to center my remarks and reactions to on the $20 bill.actio i picture her stapled on my elementary school classroom's bulletin board. black history month was exciting. in addition to presence, we got to have some black women. imageot recall the exact that i beheld, but i remember thinking, this woman appeared old and wise to my eight-year-old eyes. i could not fully appreciate her complexities based on the image.ensional after the research done by my fellow panelists, who helped to reconstruct the lives of enslaved women, much of what the islic knows about tubman still as two-dimensional as the black history month bulletin board. my reaction was, like many of my colleagues, decidedly and miss -- admiss, and it still is. as a black woman and professionally as a black woman historian, i was still uncomfortable with an enslaved woman on u.s. currency -- an enslaved woman, who herself was botched with u.s. currency and given monetary value. feared that the enshrining of tubman would only add to further the tubmanensionalizing of and the black history tubman, whoon of was a multifaceted and complex person. turned, my mixed angst as i began to survey the action to the selection of tubman, particularly the conversations happening on social media and in real life about the image that should be used on the 20 dollar .ill it was the day before my birthday and the day before prince died. i remember those two days because i remember, the dinner conversations at my birthday, these were the two topics. if social media was any indication, tubman's appearance was on the mind of many. there seemed to be a preoccupation about what tubman looked alike. conversation -- on social media, just a brief , and sometimes it is dangerous to read comments, by thinking hard -- but i think these are telling. one man said, i hope they put a smile on her for the $20 bill. another posted, they can make her smile, can't they? why would they use a picture of a grumpy person, i would be too discouraged to buy anything. actually a new conversation. representations of lack women often center on not just how they look, but how they are to appear, how they are to make other people feel. the mammy think about memorial movement of the 1920's and 1930's, which calls for a monument "in memory of the faithful mammy's of the south." i think this is an interesting parallel moment to look out. the representation of a black woman was being discussed within the federal government. this was to enshrine a mammy monument and washington, d.c. as i was looking through the images of the proposed statue, one of them particularly caught my eye. figure holdingmy a child. this was odd because you don't see this. a curled lip, a smile at the end. this was to reflect to us this myth that black women were happy and secure in the subservient .tate when we think about this, we have to think about in the context of the images of the mammy. part of this comfort -- the discomfort of the image of harry tubman is a completely annihilate ideas of complacency in service. the whole impetus for her to smile was the compulsory nature of it. smile inould be made a the picture. that they could put a smile on her. a way that her own agency, her own desires are embraced, that we can embrace what she looks like if only we put a smile on her. i could not stop but think about , "why aren'tssment you smiling?" on socialcomments media were not only about the desire to seek a smiling tubman, lack ofeptions of her beauty. i will scare you with some of the more despicable comments. "no one will want $20 bills with etc., etc.. on it," her perceived ugliness was also commented on by people who appreciated her as a historical figure. there is a whole lot we can unpack and the q&a about misogyny, racism, and all of nature.ersectional what was interesting, and katherine alluded to this a bit in her presentation, was the desire particularly on the part women to claim a beautiful harriet, to the point where they began to circulate an image of a black woman in the 19th century, dressed in victorian ground, with a backdrop of flowers. calls from people to maybe use this picture. that was not of tubman. westwas an enslaved african woman. again, this desire, we should think about what the role of beauty plays into this and why there has been such a backlash that is informed by racism, misogyny, etc., but also this idea of wanting to have a reputation that abided by different measures of beauty. instead of looking at how tubman herself represented herself, and for all of her freedom fighting, we see a woman who relishes in her old age. can read how she presented herself, what sort of physical comportment she used, what was her idea of beauty. self presentation was important. it was a way for particularly enslaved people to control, take control, or some semblance of control, over their bodies. the seemingly effortless practice of physical and adornment represented a way to reclaim their bodies outside of slave labor. as we continue this conversation about tubman, as far as i know, the u.s. treasury has not selected the actual image that will be on it. i think interrogating the image has much to teach us about black womanhood, memory, and the politics of black beauty. thank you. [applause] >> the final formal barry,ation is from dina associate professor of history and african and african diaspora studies at the arrestee of texas, austin. she is an award-winning editor of "enslaved women in america: an encyclopedia." in january 2017, beacon press "the price for the pound of flesh: the value of the enslaved from the womb to the grave and the building of a ."tion t [applause] >> thank you so much for the introduction and for asking me to be on the panel. it is tough being in the rear, but i will do my best. when we first conceived of the session, our goal was to have a conversation about harry's summit on the $20 bill and the ofger context commodification and the internal economy. for me, i have concerns about people who came out immediately and began speaking for harry tubman. "she would not be pleased," "she is probably offended." my question at that time was very simple and still remains. would she be offended, and how do we know? we can't speak for her. we don't know exactly how she would feel. her ase bill is honoring a national hero. replacing alexander jackson who now adorns the back of the $20 bill. one ofubman now adorns the most widely circulate currencies we have. to be sure, for some, that means that people are putting their as wasll over her again, adjusted. in this line of thinking, it rejects the notion of her on the $20 bill because currency come on a fight enslaved people. as dr. white just mentioned, i just finished writing a book about the commodification of enslaved people. i want to talk about what that means, what is commodification. commodification during slavery can next to forms of commodification today -- can connects to forms of commodification today. what do you do with bodies that cannot make money off the work they do for the verse two? we have them on flyers, brochures, and so for. -- so forth. these are the athletes. back to my wheelhouse, what i argue in my book is enslaved women were commodified before they were born and after they died. they were sold with warranties on the uteruses, and were guaranteed that they give birth to healthy children. when they did not, enslavers took the cases to court, waiting for the money to be returned. that is commodification. enslaved people that were differently abled, blind, or missingr had body parts were valued accordingly. that is commodification. one man was sold with the right at $270 lessvalued than his counterpart who had two eyes. they gave him a discount because of the quote unquote disability. sold for not giving birth for five years. they said at that point they wanted their money back because they paid money for her to give birth. that, i would argue, is commodification. the scene in "12 years of slave" when the girl is kept and , thatmily is sold awake is commodification. harry tubman was commodified during slavery, like her counterparts. she even had a higher price tag on her body. what she spite because did to the institution had greater damage than the price of an slave woman at that time. she freed hundreds of people worth probably billions of dollars to date. to recognize the life of a formerly enslaved woman on federal currency is a significant statement in my opinion. especially when they were finally oppressed at one point. harry tubman will be the first african american, male or female, to appear on currency. she is not the first enslaved on currency inr the united states. confederate greenbacks had enslaved people on their bills .hroughout the civil war period tubman, in her fre freeman, will be on the $20 bill. she gets the last word, as far as i'm concerned, and will make every person who uses the $20 to did and howhat she she represents the united states. thank you. [applause] >> i want to thank the panel not only for the enlightenement and stimulating conversations, but also for staying on time. doing so gives us the opportunity to really discuss this and hear from people in the audience. i feel like i should say that ang about the fact , who islaved woman going to be put on the $20 bill, i will just recall that 30 years ago, or maybe 31 years ago now, i published, "aren't i a woman: female slaves in the plantation south." first fulle monograph on african-american women slaves. in it, i tried to demonstrate that male and female slavery was different. and, when you looked at the not sayion, you could slaves without gin drink it. it, but, i hate to say we have in fact, an incredibly long way. everyone here has written an incredible history's about african-american women in general and african-american women slaves in particular. in that respect, i just inc., and have it moved to the $20 we have clearly moved from the margins to the center and one way. it is incredibly ironic that comes at a time when even african americans are talking about, well, we don't need this .istory , or scholars are claiming asking the question, why do we always start with the same old slavery.ry about it has been talked about as the end of the african-american narrative and how we need a new story. there is so much we don't know about african-americans and certainly african-american women. c-spanannounce for you, is taping this. it will air on november 1, starting at 8:00 eastern time. if you are in another time zone or state, perhaps you should check your local listings. please, because we have the cameras here, please identify yourself if you ask a question or make a comment. . will open the floor to anyone yes? identify yourself. >> i'm from the universe did california, fullerton. i'm really interested in what you brought up about harry tubman, this individual icon versus the collective and the collective somehow. i'm curious about your thoughts otherry tubman, versus icons. two questions. individual versus a collective and other icons of the era. has aelieve that each mic little button here, and maybe that is how they work. you should be able to turn it on. >> i speak of course on american icons -- teach of course on american icons. i've thought a lot about this iconic question. it became quite clear, when you are looking for only one, you start a limiting. it is a process of elimination. question, iticonic someone thatd everyone is comfortable with, but symbolic. this new family of currency, the scene was freedom. we tried to introduce freedom struggles as part of the vocabulary. this question, which was so well brought up, was something we had to point out, lincoln is not really grinning, etc. harriet was someone who is informatics in many ways. into, in terms of having such a great impact and running a symbol, get, she remained illiterate her entire life, but she supported education and was quite brave. bills will be the bumps to have identify them. those with sight challenges, the disabled, well actually be honored at this bill. since harry herself suffered from a disability, that is important. also, a large percentage of american currency is used a abroad.- i have seen 30% quoted at one time. we are thinking about the impact of having an african-american woman coming out of slavery honored on correctly in the 21st century. i think that is an idea that she is symbolic of these larger questions. we do not know what she would say or think. she often used the language of patriotism and draping herself in the fight of her country. .hat was some of the thinking my thinking was that we don't have to compromise, we have to settle that. it could well be other people spirits, but i was moved about -- by the way she was so well excepted as someone who clearly had struggled from the underground railroad. as my colleagues point out, she had her role in charity and women's suffrage. rosa parks was born the same month that harry tubman dies. i think that is a marvelous kind that.rican history with others may have other -- >> this is what i will say. factch as we can chide the she is iconic and exceptional, the underside if the connection she has with other black women, other enslaved women and oppressed people in general. i think the trick is to knowledge her history in the full totality. we need to go beyond the two dimensional depiction. actually, when the issue of the bill circulated, i sent a text .o dina barry i did not call her. i was not necessarily in favor of it. she reminded me that in jamaica, a mammy is on the money, $500 bill. i said, we are so behind in the u.s.. now, nanny and harry tubman can be conversation. i am very conflicted all the way across the board. >> other questions? >> i was hoping you couldt discuss how co-optation of african-american individuals the state, barack obama in particular. president obama's speech at a dedication of national museum of american history -- american at -- african-american history culture. i was on if anyone could speak to that. i'm thinking not just in the contemporary period of this, but a long history of a legacy, how have bothericans symbolically but also african-americans in their actual bodies have been used as representatives of the u.s. state, of the u.s. empire, in ways that would try to stop attempts against freedom struggles. i think about, in the cold war period, how african-american athletes and musicians were often sent by the state -- a broad tolord represent america and to represent a narrative of american equality in the face of great dehumanizing of african-americans. millwardhe point dr. raise about this juxtaposition of this moment where we have an african-american woman on the currency, at the moment of the outcry of black lives matter, as a black violence against women is so virulent should not necessarily cause us to dismiss the symbolic importance, but certainly i hope it opens up a conversation. and in some ways, it could be way to sort of a placate, perhaps. i'm not sure. i'm not sure i want to go there yet. i'm on this panel, but i'm not -- i haven't sort of wrapped my mind around or come to an emphatic conclusion over whether this is a good thing. thing thatis a good it opens up these conversations. but this would not be the first time that the state has used as als of black heroism way to combat freedom struggles. i think it is an important question to ask at this moment at the very least. was about theersy timing. i am a bit of a conspiracy theorist. i have been reading a lot articles recently that the and of currency, the end of paper money -- i take it very personally that, once a woman gets named to be on a bill, we have economists talk about the end of paper currency. that's why i brought up the international whatever goes on the u.s. come i think we can think about it. but the timing issue was quite a struggle. because the grassroots campaign with women on the $20. they are struggling with timing, when will the treasury bill out and with the order is of the bill. in fact, on the very day, the secretary was out derailing this and why would the first bill be the $10 bill rather than the $20 schedule for redesign, which would put women on the back. -- in the matter of the timing of it. but that is a good question. ofing out in the summer 2015, other issues. >> it's not scheduled to come out for another four years. this is not something that is going to appear tomorrow. it is scheduled to appear in 2020, plenty of time for another administration to read -- to derail it. he was is the point that trying to make a huge public campaign about this. anyone who wants to derail it will have to go up against this issue. and it is the secretary of the treasury who alone makes the decision and the only requirements are that the person may not be living and you don't change george washington on the one dollar bill. all those opera and beyonce votes were not taken into account. they would -- all those opera and beyonce votes were not taken into account. there would have to be deceased. [laughter] ron davis, university of texas. i was kind of thinking the $20 bill is the most counterfeited bill in the u.s. come in the world actually. how do we look at. tubman on the bill in that light, with the potential of being counterfeited? can someone speak to what that might mean of the significance of that? i think that is kind of ironic in two ways. most bills are counterfeited in some way. if i think about it symbolically come i think about how she clandestinely went back-and-forth and help people become free. i think it's ironic that that might happen with the bill. respond to your answer, but for me, that doesn't take away the impact of having her on it. that's just my simple response to that. >> i feel the same way. she should be on it and you can't help if the money is going to be falsely replicated throughout the country and across the world. it's unfortunate that it would happen. undoubtedly, it probably will. >> good morning. thank you for a really incredible panel. may professor at western university -- i am a professor at western university. you made an interesting point about how, during the 1920's, -- this momenta to recognize african-american women in a federal level. i'm wondering what sort of lessons we might take or what do we imagine this sort of message is are the ideas that are being put forth about black women and black womanhood now with the advancement of the idea having a woman like harriet tubman on the $20 bill? what if anything are we to take from that? >> i'll take a stab at that. i think it's an interesting point that sort of relates to the earlier question about messages of lack womanhood. i think the discussion around beauty is one of those moments where i think it is messaging certain things about what makes for appropriate black womanhood, what makes for -- that black safe in terms of of representation if they can embody a particular kind of beauty. i think also about the call for someone like beyonce on the $20 bill answered of replicating that message. it is a conflictual one because it's this idea of black women sort of struggling for their sense of identity, black women being able to assert their identities. black women making messages about inclusion in the body politic. i think it's part of how we can think of the nice messages of that. but also, there is to me this kind of underside when it comes to the representation of the $20 bill and sort of black women as symbolic black women sort of enshrined in a particular object way without engaging the issues of black womanhood. so there is a way that this can open up a conversation about black women's inclusion in the citizenry citizenry, in the body politic. can deflect from that as making this particular icon as a stand-in for black womanhood. dollare put one on the bill. it's like obama began to embody a symbolic importance, a post-racial america. because someone had achieved a particular status. my fear is this conversation around tubman may in fact actually stop conversations about black women is further included in the body politic. >> should did always pose with a white lay scholar and had dignity, genuine, important dignity. it was so important to bring up the circulated -- the fantasy tubman was a concubine image at the period. there is that conflict. it was tackled directly. in some ways, i just like to -- to bid for having her look at what she was fighting for his representative of 19th-century african american women and into that when he first century. >> on the other hand, there is also an image of her that circulates with a gun. i don't know whether or not the nra would endorse her. [laughter] my sense is, when they support the second amendment, they don't think of black people period, black men or women, you know. on the other hand, i don't know what to think about this because i don't think that, when people use american currency, when they use the $20 bill, i don't think anybody really looks at the $20 bill and says, oh, until this controversy came up or this issue came up, about jackson. history is totally irrelevant to the issue of the $20 bill. he was a killer with the seminal wars, the indian wars in florida , and then oversaw the indian removal. that gets wiped away. so one has to wonder whether or not harriet tubman is going to be, you know -- and her history is going to also be similarly , justf just washed away taken for granted without knowing the history. i'm interested in whether or not there is some sort of corollary between the fact that we have this black lives matter moment and this movement that was initiated, right, by these three black queer women. now there is this wave and advancement to have this very revolutionary black woman be recognized in a different way. i'm sort of wondering -- this is the optimist in me. i'm wondering if there is some correlation with respect to that. but i take your point there is a way in which that can also be sensitive safety valve measure, too. so that was part of the question. >> just piggybacking on that, john brown talks about harriet tubman in masculine pronouns. he calls her he. other female abolitionists were alsothe gendered, also -- degendered. she was looked at in the 1950's as an incredible leader. but it can't be a feminine icon. it has to be a masculine icon. even though schiavo actually embraced her femaleness and her womanhood, nevertheless, at that time, she was looked at differently, particularly by white males. washe way in which she chosen in particular and the whole idea of beauty, how that all ties into who can be a leader. you have to make that a masculine thing. you don't have to be beautiful if you are viewed in a particular kind of way. little bit uncomfortable with the rhetoric about her being a part of the capital system or a commodity when, in fact, i'm sure slave people did not view themselves as commodities. just because they participated in a system that way, it doesn't mean they view themselves that way. i think we need to push back on that particular argument as being relevant at all. things, to your saw point, enslaved people themselves as whole people. it rejected the notion of commodification and they tried to manipulate the system to stay with family members when they were on the auction block, to not be sold to a certain person. they were actively trying to circumvent the active commodification against them. that's the first thing i want to say. second thing, there was a lot of -- there were a lot of assumptions about enslaved women during slavery, particularly because of the amount of labor they performed and because they performed labor that, in the perspective of some and slavers, surprisingly that women could do these things. they kind of did this work -- there were no gender distinction sometimes when you looked at the prime hands that were working in the fields because women were doing just as much as men. so there is a blurring there. there is a blurring of gender lines prior to age 10. there is a blurring of gender lines until women are able to give birth and then there is a separation. because then they are reducing additional sources of labor. i think you are seeing it even now with a way which people perceive harriet tubman as well. >> i'm going from side to side nationall --. recently in the debates, donald trump has been talking about the way hillary clinton present yourself to there was a recent "new york times" article saying that none of these people look quarter" hansen in any of these portraits they give, as comical relief to this debate about beauty and representation in heller quentin. in ourking about that, conversation today, it makes a think about how women are often given a role in the nation, if you are thinking of them as mothers, nationalism, motherhood. hillary clinton is challenging that. it's part of the rhetoric that trump often uses. and also thinking about this image of harriet tubman, and emission unnecessarily indebted in motherhood, but there's going to be something that stands for our nation and how it can kind as the statet this laying claim to the image of women that isn't grounded in motherhood. i particularly like the picture of her with a gun. i would like to have her on the bill with the gun. i was really rooting for rosa parks because i like rosa parks and i live in michigan, not too far from detroit. i was skeptical about harriet tubman because i didn't participate in the social media stuff here it but i was curious about how she was going to look on the $20 bill and her smile. because part of me was, ok, i want black women to be represented well on a piece of u.s. currency that is going to be around the nation and around the world. motherhoodidea about made me think about her and this gun. and how to me that was symbolic resistance,ge, her to free hundreds of people, as well as her making a statement about what freedom meant to herself and her family and millions of black people. so this whole image of motherhood was gray and fine when i read about it. but the resistant -- the resistance aspect for me, and her holding that gun, was, like, can they please put this on here? [laughter] but please.can't, >> no, holding the gun was also part of the disputed, the harriet tubman controversy. i have two sons and they are five years apart. and each one of them saw the harriet tubman play. but in the 1980's and into the 90's, harriet tubman portrayed with a gun was a controversy. there was a mural that was going to be put up. -- harry tubman did carry a pistol with her. we have that record. but she's also portrayed as an african woman carrying a rifle in the underground railroad. i point out how ludicrous that would have been. pistol for other purposes. first the civil war, her biography by sir bradford had a woodcut showing her with a rifle, showing her as the rifle -- as the warrior. so i get your point about showing her as a warrior. someint out that there is suggestion that harriet tillman might have her so been a daughter -- a mother. she did have a daughter. the origins of that daughter something we discussed. she may have been in a forced later took that child to the safety and then adopted the child. a very old, almost biblical kind of tail. and she was known as the moses suffer people. a war isg her as important, but also she did not .asculinize some other african-american did, heroic black women as well. >> to that point, there is a woodcut image of harriet tubman holding the gun. there is also the image that circulated during the black arts movement period where she is also with a defiant long rifle. that comes at a moment when black people are controlling their own narratives and they are expressing their own angst , worldwideed states in a particular way. in terms of marriott had -- mary tubman and mothering in motherhood, i would suggest that we expand the definition of motherhood. is it something giving birth to a child? is it adopting a child? or is it the decision to not have children? that should be included in the conversation about motherhood. isnot being a mother, there a particular politics that sure rounds that, a particular asexuality. if you look at some women in leadership positions or some black women at the academy, i mean, in order to be in a particular leadership role, it is assumed that you have given up certain kinds of positions, either a wife or mother. so i would say we expand the conversation of motherhood. , in bringingsay people to freedom or in doing charity work, you are doing another kind of labor, right? if we want to call it mothering, we can call it the journalism. i don't really like that model. -- we can call it paternalism. i don't really like that model. but motherhood is discussed in a biological stance. >> i will exercise the prerogative of the chair and ask your question. i do a little social media, but not as -- [laughter] no, not as much as some other people. i'm wondering about -- has it been any pushback from men, black men, and the fact that the first black person on -- i can't imagine that there has not. be it shouldat may quote-unquote a black man to represent the race on the bill. can you address that? >> from my social media researcher -- [laughter] that is a thing now. i can't believe that came out of my mouth. a lot of the issues around the beauty or a leanness of harriet tubman were coming from men, both black and white men, and some women also. what was surprising is that it was across the board, this conversation. while it was probably out there, i did not see folks talking about it. i think the conversation about her ugliness is that conversation. it is sort of a resentment around how dare she be on there. but maybe not in the language that you expressed it, that misogyny masted in a different way. i think the conversation about her being ugly is embedded in that. areay in another way, we achieving by, again, those of us historians -- and i wasn't the only one. there were other people that it must be a woman of color. i think in some ways, the unification of a movement for , african american women's history, we think women of color must be on panels, must be panels on this such an important topic. that kind of change is being embraced by other movements and groups. you're talking about where's the backlash and i'm saying i don't think it is as particular as it would have been. >> as a used to be? -- as it used to be? [laughter] >> macros without saying. -- that goes without saying. >> it's perhaps a little more sophisticated in a good way, but the language difference, the climate is that it cannot be expressed in a stark way. >> did anyone go put that beautiful frederick douglass -- [laughter] >> i did not see that. it is telling that it is not there in some ways. >> in other words, it may be coded differently now. which means that it is still there. people are just masking it, as you said, a little differently, or it could be, as you say, if we really have turned a corner. i guess we will see. all right. i promised to go over here. yes. >> i am a doctoral candidate at rug errors university -- at rutgers university. on a talk about the timing about harriet tubman being on the new currency. 2015, we saw these controversies around the country about the naming of things, about commemorating certain people and certain places. it exploded at universities. we talked about justin davis highway being renamed in northern virginia. this is happening nationwide. so what place do you see this sort of decision to put harriet as sort of- on money this resistance or trying to quell the resistance to the certain prominent individuals in the american landscape? >> i think it is connected in a way. we did look broadly at other spaces on campus, places that were named after confederate generals. i just got back last week from yale. there were conversations there about calhoun college. other scholars were talking about the university controversy. i think this is part of that moment. harriet tubman on the $20 bill comes in that setting. i want to add a question to this. how come nobody was up in arms when black people were put on stamps? people celebrated it. there is the whole african-american stamp collection and i never saw anybody get outraged at all. all these people that had gone on stamps that people have been collecting for years, nobody was upset. the stamp is a form of money. why aren't we outraged by the images, representation, and the people selected for stamps when we are with the $20 bill? >> there are even african-american portraits where there are no images. our artist representations on stamps, which is interesting. you do have this image. and also the idea earlier was we don't look at the money. i wrote for 15 years and was interested in children as consumers of history. they do look at the money. $20 bills, $10 bills, they do look at these images. it's important to say it can make a difference. the controversy over naming and challenging this is through the force of african-american urgencies, activism, through the -- aj had a panel on it. various kinds of issues. i think we need to come as historians, inc. about the connection between the work we these trying to connect meetings through the larger public. i just finished a study at rutgers, the connection between rutgers and slavery as well as native americans. i think it is a recognition that history matters. it, that isdo with what -- that is for each individual, each institution to figure that out. studiesfact that the are being undertaken, particularly at universities is an indication that it does matter. the history is something that is important. orwhether we rename things we keep a particular name, i think that finally i feel very proud -- not that i did not always feel proud to be an historian, but i think there is this recognition that what we do is really very important. >> i sent yesterday on a panel. they did a study on slavery on george washington's manner. i think history and historians are trending. [laughter] we are. people are looking to us for answers to understand the historical context of different things that have happened, understand the context of people, individuals. it's very important. like you said, history matters. historians matter. we are now trending. >> harriet tubman also ran an old folks home in new york. those issues were at a time when african americans were creating their own homes because nursing homes were locking them out. there were standards of poor that we could never meet. but the need for dignity in later years are still prevalent. come does that discussion in? was called a philanthropist in auburn, new york, in the newspaper. she did open the only home outside of new york city, in the entire new york state that was open. it was to the disabled. it was to the veteran. it was also to the indigent. she ran the home. it was later taken over by the church. but she was someone i think very committed. if you read the material, she was brought over to boston when they named a home after her. she went to washington. she was someone who really believed ecumenically in trying to change. tubmannity -- so harriet , humanitarian, so important. and yet at the same time, i read a letter where a grandson of wasiam blake garrison solicited and asked what he thought of harriet tubman and he said who? right at the same time that there were harriet heaven clubs. so i think you have to keep spreading the word and there will be many, many versions of harriet that go out. supporting education. she collected money for schools and sent it to the freedmen's bureau. she was very committed to that. i think philanthropy and the whole question of the way in which -- i mean the controversy over abraham lincoln statue in lincoln park in washington, where an african-american woman gave money and it was collected -- that african-american philanthropy is something that needs re-examination. >> ironically perhaps, the history of andrew jackson will now come to the floor and people that he was only the father of the democratic party, expanded the franchise that also he, but was, you know, the number one worked on indian remover and that he was a slave owner. people may say, oh, let me look at this black dial the back and see what he's all about -- black guy on the back and see what he's all about. and maybe history will pull for together and people will gain an in -- and understanding of both of them in a new way. >> this is got me thinking about harriet tubman on the $20 bill in the context of black economics and economic it -- and economists study about black beauty shops and barbershops. and wealth building and the conversation around reparations. money andhink about other communities and harriet tubman in that context. >> yeah, for sure. we only cash. -- youple who can't know, who borrow or trade in , probably won't have access to this $20 bill. it still becomes important to the community. i'm not sure if i'm answering part of your question or your comment. i think it's important. i think it is important to both cash communities as well as non-tangiblell use ways of bartering. >> my sense it is almost like the prediction that the evoke ebook was going to be the end of the book. but the fact is that people really like books. bitcoins have not taken off and that whole thing. in order to get a credit card, you have to have good credit. so my feeling is that black people will be using cash, not just black people, but a lot of people in america, particularly given the way that the middle class is going. a lot of people are going to be using cash for a while. i'm not a little bit -- i'm not concerned that cash is really going to disappear. >> to have a couple more minutes. >> race and the use of cultural institutions described african-americans in the historical narrative. what i'm hearing is the function of the memorialization in american history and the very visual nature of it -- everyone mentioned that -- and what it can do to address the seen and unseen work that dr. harris , the seen and unseen work of building this nation that is sort of controversial. harriet tubman is organizing slaves. on -- theleader leader of the underground work thatclandestine is not a knowledge but memorialization is trying to reclaim her name. our is that going to do for american historical narrative, especially because we are having the federal government sort of knowledge that they are creating the national park service site in dedication to tubman. >> i think it raises conversation. again, i do 20th century history. be on thisinvited to panel, i had to reread catherine clinton's book. for me, by being on the panel, it made me, you know, re-examine tubman's life and the unseen work that she had performed for the government. she should be on the bill because she saved this nation. i think by having her on the bill and by having all of these different types of memorials on her, i think it will make people really revisit that history and really kind of examine what we thought we knew about tubman. because for a long time, even after the civil war and before -- even during grad school, i had no idea what happened to her after the civil war, i mean, how she struggled. this is someone who did -- you can correct me if i'm wrong -- and have formal employment. she worked as a domestic worker, but this was someone who really struggled. so for me at least and probably for millions of people who don't have a sense of who she was, i think it gives us a chance to re-examine and history and possibly look at other black women who may unrecognized sacrifices during that time dvd. that time period. the labor she was doing was work. >> and she didn't keep records. there was the struggle over her pension, which she only received in 1899. it is so important to see that it was blocked and there were people trying to push for it, they were blocked. south carolinians were blocking it. the 21st century, there is a harriet tubman bridge the has been established and her name is inscribed in the very place where her brave acts that we might have forgotten are going to be. this memorialization shows the change that goes on. however, as you know from the panel you're on, the work is also being done that, for example, we think about confederate memorials from another area, with a recent count in north carolina shows that they were asked a building them stronger and more often during the civil rights era. so we are in struggle, in contention. but putting names out there and having people ask questions, i don't think it's always children and i think people look at these markers and they look at the names. and they will ask the questions. who is harold washington because he's in scrubbed in chicago? it's a way i can -- it is a way, i think, of bringing history alive. think yourefly, question is important in thinking about the role of institutions as taking us beyond the symbolic. but a symbolic institution, -- we have artifacts, harriet tubman's shawl, one of the first things i will run to see when i get to the museum. but thinking about how institutions need to come in conjunction with the symbolic representations to be able to paint bigger, richer, fuller stories. i think that is something for us to keep in mind. institutions are needed to further their conversation. >> if i can add one thing and that is to the public memory conversation. again, this will be a glass half-full. maybe i shouldn't end with this. ofmemoration is a form reconciliation. it is not a form of reparations. there is still much more worth it needs to be done. i think this is a step in the right direction. >> i want to thank everyone for being in attendance. i'd like to thank doctors clinton, millward, harris, guilt, and very furthest very -- berry for this very insightful panel. i want to thank c-span for bringing it to the american public. panel, the wages of commemoration, a roundtable on harriet hedman, black women's history in the $20 bill was byught to us by a solid -- asalla and sponsored by the associate of -- the association of black women historians. thank you. [applause] >> you are watching american history tv all weekend every weekend on c-span 3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook at c-span history. weekend, the 10 commandments for presidential leadership by talmage boston. here is a preview. probably heard that most people of history for two reasons. the first reason is because it shows us how much things change. in the second reason is because it shows us how things stay the same. one of the main ways that history shows us how much things stay the same is that the traits that make for a great presidential leader are the same in 1789as they were when george washington got sworn in. book, "crocs examining in history -- " cross-examining history," after my interviews, i synthesize what i called the 10 commandments of presidential leadership. this audienceat is filled with leaders. we've got business leaders. we've got civic leaders. we've got all kinds of leaders. by believe these traits are important for all leaders because they come from the stories of those who faced the most important decisions of -- theireas t --heir er eras. the standard not only for their own leadership but for all leadership positions. >> american history tv, only on c-span 3. >> if you missed any of the presidential debate, go to c-span.org using your desktop, phone or tablet. on our special debate page, you can watch the entire debate, choosing between the split screen or the switch camera options. you can even go to specific questions and answers from the debate, finding the content you easily.ck and and use our video clipping tool to create clips of your favorite debate moments to share on social media. desktop,g, on your phone or tablet for the presidential debates. >> in 1866, the u.s. supreme court ruled it unconstitutional to try civilians in military court while military courts are operating. the ex parte milligan case originated during the civil war when they put dissenting civilians on trial. the case has been cited frequently since september 11 when several military commission cases came before the supreme court. next, ohio state university professor michael les benedict delivers the history of ex parte milligan. this is part of a two day conference hosted by illinois state university.

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