to a very special conference. the olmsted's conservation legacy over the last 20 months, we have felt mighty grateful to frederick law olmsted, whose urban parks have made our lives livable. and today we look forward to exploring a relatively little known aspect of the olmsted's. they are critical role in the creation of america's national parks. this simple film is part of olmstead 200, the national and local celebration throughout 2022 of the bicentennial of the birth of frederick law, olmstead, visionary reformer and founder of the profession of landscape architecture, the national association for olmstead parks is pleased to sponsor this program and honored to be the managing partner of the bicentennial. working with nine other stellar national partners, we invite everyone to join us. we have a national website. olmstead 200. borg. and a national calendar of events. we have a monthly newsletter and a lively blog. we have also released a special online exhibit, frederick law olmstead landscapes for the public good in partnership with the oak spring garden foundation. you can see some of the extraordinary panels today here in this room. this program is just one of hundreds of opportunities, in-person and otherwise, around the country throughout this year because the olmstead firm operated in 47 out of 50 states. we can literally find olmstead landscapes around the country. and of course, here we are in rich olmstead territory. live from the nation's capital and coming to you straight from capitol hill, where olmstead served as the first landscape architect. it was none other than senator justin morel, a key figure in the late 19th century who invited olmstead to take on this job and with a very interesting instruction, telling him, we hope you don't watch it. the national association for olmsted parks is grateful to the architect of the capitol, which is one of hundreds of celebrated and partners across the country and co-sponsor of this event today. they will be providing are lucky attendees tours and you'll hear a little bit more about that shortly. we are also immensely grateful to representative french hill of arkansas, whose state has been deeply involved in olmstead 200 and exploring. olmstead is living legacy. thanks to representative hill, the u.s. congress will honor olmstead during his bicentennial by planting a tree here on the capitol grounds in his honor. grounds that olmstead designed as a free and open democrat space to welcome all americans in the wake of a deadly and divisive civil war at the time that he worked. now we think of olmstead as a park maker and that he was. but one of the goals of the bicentennial is to explore other important aspects of his multifaceted career. so today, as you've heard, we will zero in on the olmsted's underappreciated contributions to the creation of the national park service and system. before olmstead, there really were no public parks to speak of. most parks were private property only open at the whim of the owner. in the wake of the civil war, parks, as we will hear today, emerged as important municipal and national institutions. did you know as early as 1865, frederick law olmstead was calling for great. and i quote public grounds for the enjoyment of the people as a duty of government. so today we'll start with frederick law olmstead, senior in 1865 in the yosemite report followed by an examination of his son, frederick law olmstead jr, who was no small force himself helping to write the organic act that created the national park service and working for decades with the national park service. we will conclude our day with a panel of distinguished experts who will examine the historic and current challenges to the public land. ideal, ranging from displacement to exclusion, lack of public funding to climate change. i should add that our program today takes its cue from a special study commissioned by the frederick law olmsted national historic site in 2020. the olmsted and the national park system. we will learn more about that shortly. to get us started today, we will hear from director of the capitol grounds and arboretum, jim coffman, who will be followed by kim hall, director of the national capital region for the national park service. jim, take it away. thank you. good morning. morning. so my name is jim coffman and i'm the director of capitol grounds and arboretum at the architect of the capitol. and it's our pleasure to welcome you here to to the capitol and the capitol's visitor center, where excited to host this conference as we explore the conservation and associated challenges of preserving olmsted's legacy as a landscape architect, social reformer, reformer and firm believer in designing national parks to support democratic ideals. in describing his plan for the u.s. capitol, olmstead noted not only that, he was told, but not botch it. oh, but olmstead noted that the ground is in design. part of the u.s. capitol. but in all respect, it's subsidiary to the central structure. that's an important note. so some of those those of you that are going to stick around for the tours later on today. there's a couple of highlights that i think you'll see that as time changes, the landscape changes and the architect is working to restore and preserve some of the aspects of that landscape and that important element that the capitol building is the main focus. so he wanted his design to complement and highlight the u.s. capitol building, and he created a landscape that incorporated park like edging low walls, lamps. and when we do our tours, too, i want you to pay attention to some of those awesome lamps down on the lower west front. we recently had did a about a year, year and a half long effort of restore bring those lamps and their beautiful. so we also had the careful placement of trees and shrubs and a series of curved walkways that offer attractive views of the u.s. capitol. but do not distract the viewer from the building. and that's another important aspect. as you do walk the grounds, whether on a tour or on your own. notice the intricate details. and as landscape professionals in public around profession knowledge, you'll be able to notice the differences in the textures that are provided. you know, just time out your computer here. hope not. but you'll notice the differences that are added to the textures of the of the trees and the views that are opened up by the design and in particular. so as we discuss and learn about olmsted's legacy today, i encourage you to take pleasure in knowing that we are sitting in the u.s. capitol when olmsted's crowning jewels. i challenge you not to not only remember his legacy, but also to discuss solutions to the challenges that we face in the public lands sector. and then finally, i want you to feel inspired knowing that we are all helping to preserve olmstead legacy for future generations. and then last but not least, a couple of details. if you had the opportunity to go around to the gift shop, put a plug in for the cbc gift shop, there's a nice olmstead display in the gift shop. lots of good olmstead goodies, but some that we are very, very proud of is the way how we are giving new life to some of our trees on campus. we are working with local artists to manufacture products that are for sale in the gift shop that are made in the u.s. by local artisans. beautiful bowls of cufflinks, all sorts of good stuff. some that actually come from some of the old state trees as we prune. so that's up there in the gift shop. take some time. you also get a little bit of a notice about our grounds and a little bit of legacy in that matter. and then finally, for the tours to 15 will meet down at garfield circle. so that's down by the botanic garden. if you go down to the botanic garden or the reflecting pool, you can't miss them. go down the hill and it's on the south side. we're depending on how many people we have. we're going to divide up in groups and i see steve's back there. so depending on how many people are there, we're going to divide up into groups and be able to provide a tour around around the grounds, give you insight to what was in olmsted's time and then where we're going with it. so thank you for being here and welcome. thank you. well, good morning, everyone. as didi pointed out, my name is kim hall and i'm the regional director here for the national capital region. i've had the privilege of serving in this role for just shy of two years now, but this is year 36 with the national park service. so every day is a learning experience. every time i think i've learned as much as i can about a particular site or about a particular issue, i moved to a new place and i learn more stories and it really is a privilege. the national capital region now covers both the district of columbia as you're aware, but it also extends out into western maryland. harpers ferry, national historical park in west virginia. we have northern virginia, and then in any number of sites within the district of columbia itself that are individually managed and we have a great team here who provides oversight and protection and preservation of all those sites for your enjoyment and for the millions of people who come to d.c. every year. a little known fact about me. there was a point in time where i aspired to be a landscape architect and i had deep admiration for the work of my colleagues who were engaged in the profession of landscape architecture. and i would go to their office and look at the drawings and really think about and understand how they were viewing the idea of construct married with nature and then i figured out how many years of education it was going to take me and i didn't have the patience for that. so for all of you who are landscape architects or who somehow serve that profession, my hat's off and my admiration to you because i do think it's truly one of the most amazing skill sets and one of the most amazing disciplines we have in this country. when we think about design and certainly in its relationship to national parks. so as i mentioned, it really is a privilege of managing the sites here in d.c. and the larger the greater d.c. area, many of these sites are tributes to some of the most significant leaders in our history, to some of the most compelling parts of conflict and war. we protect the area, the landscape around the outside of what is now camp david. so we have a very interesting portfolio here in the region, and it truly is a privilege, not just in you know, the day to day operations of preservation of sites or the maintenance of things that olmstead or his sons created. but the preservation of the expression of first amendment rights. this is when we think about the national mall for example, and lafayette square, just outside the white house and the ellipse. these are some of the most premiere sites for first amendment expression in our country. and if we give ourselves a moment to really stop and absorb the responsibility we have and the privilege we have to provide that in in often in ways that no other country provide. it truly is a privilege and it's been an honor to move up here and spend a couple of years working here in preparation for the welcome today and to welcoming you to d.c.. i knew a little bit about frederick law olmstead, senior and that there you know his his significant influence in the park service. but i did spend some time with my staff to drill down a little bit into that legacy, to understand that a little better. and again, it's another one of those a new day, new things to learn. and so they sent me a whole bunch of information that i peruse. and i wanted to pick out a couple of things that resonated for me many of you, i think already know have a really strong understanding of olmsted's influence that which his sons continued later in their lives. so i won't try to, you know, say that i have any expertise in this area, but it did get me thinking about my responsibility here in d.c. and in the in this region. and so the legacy things that jumped out for me and one of the keys was really olmsted's belief that accessibility to nature is integral to america's pursuit of happiness. you know, i personally know that when i'm struggling, if i feel the weight of the world on my shoulders, the first thing i want to do is get out into nature and i want to connect. and when we think about the landscapes that we have here, being able to connect to nature in urban areas, in particular becomes that much more needed and valuable. of course, we start with yosemite, right? the the mothership of all parks, although i think yellowstone would start to disagree with that. but we're not going to get into the big wide park argument. that's for them to decide how they can take and tackle that one. but but that idea of setting something aside and really protecting all that is yosemite grew. it was really almost the appleseed rate of this giant tree that became what is the national park system. and we now that concept and the idea of preservation of stories and places has grown into 400. and i think 23. i don't know jay or sheldon or somebody can correct me. i'm sure it's more they they change every day. it seems like because we're thinking ahead right and that was part of his vision is really thinking ahead. and then broadly the influence on the landscape architecture world. right. the idea of marrying preservation and natural spaces and creating places that really worked well with nature and not against nature. we have plenty of examples of trying to fight against nature, but the idea of incorporating that natural world into design, super compelling and again as somebody who aspired to that profession at one point became just enamored with the idea of of how that played out in olmsted's influence in the park service. and then finally, a part of his legacy that also jumped out at me was his son's right. and the work that they took on after his death and their effort to to continue in the mission of design and nature and preservation, because let's be honest, how many kids really want to do what their parent does for a living? not many. so the fact that he convinced his kids to want to take on landscape architecture and keep them keep that going says something for his ability to have an influence. because i've tried to tell my kids what to do and they're not interested. so so i appreciate his legacy. it played out in a lot of ways, right. so so you have seniors vision for many sites across the park service, but then you have his sons also and the olmsted brothers company who continue that legacy in the dc area. so we think about just a handful of things. so the grounds of the white house and presidents park and we talk about that landscape preservation and the sightline to the white house and what that home means and the expression of first amendment rights. and that significance, the intention of the national mall and the construct of the grounds around the jefferson and the lincoln memorial, and putting that making that available to the public and and all of the important parts of our society and our change in government and our and our culture that have played out on those grounds over the many years that they have existed. imagine if they were condos, right? i mean, thank god they thought ahead and said, we're going to lay this landscape out and make it available. teddy roosevelt island. so, you know, if you live in the area, maybe you've kayaked or gone out there and and really just been inspired by love, teddy roosevelt love all the roosevelt's. but setting aside that space and in honoring not only roosevelt's legacy, but setting aside some wild space within the potomac river, again, which we managed, and then, of course, rock creek park and ultimately that park becomes the backyard for many, many, many people who live here in the district of columbia. it's the you know, it's the sanity amongst the chaos. it is the place of nature for many people. and the solace that they find, whether they drive back and forth on their way to work or whether they go there on the weekend with their families or their dogs or they use it for health. and we think about the health connection to rock creek park, or they use it to play music or again demonstrate their first amendment rights. and then, of course, all of their work and vision between senior and and olmsted brothers, fed into the protection of the civil war defenses here in d.c., which was actually something new. i didn't know until i moved up here and took a leadership role. and then all the parkways and how they connect access to those to those sites. there's a couple of parkways i'd like to give away, but. well, we'll take it for what it is at the moment, and we'll do our best with it. and then, of course, the 1918 rock creek plan, which was brilliant and became the precursor to what we call general management plans within the national park service. and that is that process that allows us to envision where we are today, engages the public in looking forward and thinking about what we're going to achieve down the road and how we how we maintain preservation of certain sites or tell stories. so just to kind of start to wrap this up a little bit, i found that recurring theme of struggle between access and preservation was present even as folks were thinking about preservation and design. you know, more than a century ago, that idea that we really need access to allow people to come in and appreciate, to then turn into advocates who then help perpetuate the preservation and without that symbiotic relationship, we're not we're not going to be able to function as national park sites and do effective preservation. and you can't just lock it away and hope that somebody wants to continue to perpetuate it the access develops. the advocacy. and so that will be you know, that will be scales that we continue to balance throughout the rest of our careers. and for those who come well after us, it's good to know it was it was a challenge then. it was a thought process then. and it continues to be a thought process today. so while you're here again, welcome to dc. please take in the sights, look through the eyes of the homesteads, consider what dc would be without their vision and be inspired to continue their work in your own way. thank you very much. now i think kim is so nicely emphasized that as we drive around in this city to think that this really is a city shaped in so many ways by the olmstead family. so from here, we're going to move on to our first panel, olmstead senior to the conservation movement and the national parks idea. i'll have the first panel come on up to the table, framing the discussion and introducing our speakers today is dennis strobel, author of a great new book, the power of scenery. frederick law olmstead and the origin of national parks. this book explores olmsted's campaign to save niagara falls and his support of national parks. and in december, the wall street journal named the book one of its favorites and the reviewer called it a micro history that feels big. so i wanted to give a little plug for dennis book. he is no novice when it comes to national parks. he was hired in 1971 by doug wheeler to work for the department of interior and later work with the samuel reed, then the assistant secretary for fish wildlife and parks. he also knows the nation's capital having served as a contributing editor of the washington post book review. so, as i say, he will frame the discussion and introduce our panelists for our very first discussion. so does welcome. it's great to be here. as you mentioned, i did work with the national parks recreation, environmental. right now, better. okay, good. i worked for the assistant secretary of the interior during the 1970s who oversees the national park service. and i was on hand for the 100th anniversary of yellowstone, the world's first national park, in 1972. so it's just wonderful. now, 50 years later, to still be alive, kicking and be able to talk about national parks with the 150th anniversary. that was on march 1st, earlier this year. and then, of course, we had the bicentennial for eric law olmstead, a few weeks after that, a few years ago, when i first started doing research for this book, i told my friends that i was going to write a book about where the idea for national parks came from and immediately, as ms.. hall, who is a great fan of teddy roosevelt, will recognize us. they said, oh yeah, teddy roosevelt. and i said, well, no, no. the fact is that when yellowstone and the first national park came along in 1872, teddy roosevelt was in knee pants. and when back eight years earlier than that, in 1864, you yosemite the precursor of national parks was established. i think teddy roosevelt was probably in diapers. so he really had nothing to do with the inception of the national parks. he is probably our best conservationist president, but he doesn't get credit for that. and then i told them that my chief character, if you will, in the book, there are many other men who contributed to the idea of national parks, but the one who kept coming back again and again in my research and then in my book was friendly. olmstead they said, oh, they had thought of him as the designer of central park and kind of a in the capitol grounds, maybe in stanford university, but national parks. so i said, well, you know, it all goes back to a report that he wrote on yosemite state park in 1865, and then their eyes kind of glazed over a little bit. you know, you hear that it all goes back to a report. you think of a report as a treasurers report or a subcommittee port, kind of a dull thing, really. so then i tried to tell them, no, it's a blazingly original and brilliant document that tells us so much about ourselves as americans, and it really ought to be taught in service classes. so i kind of, you know, thumped the tab for the report. well, i'm here today to give you a little introduction to report, which will, i'm sure, recur a lot during the day. olmstead wrote it because he, as the designer of central park, he was certainly the most well-known figure in the country who, had knowledge of parks, of any kind. you know, when he and calvert vox designed and olmstead became the superintendent of central park, it was really something brand new. there were very few urban parks in the world and, you know, no more than a handful, i think, in the united states. and suddenly here is this incredible one that's never really been surpassed as an urban park. well, if that was a novelty, just imagine what the idea of setting aside while away in its natural state and the government should make this a duty, a responsibility to provide the kind of recreation and solace and adventure and meditation that all these somewhat conflicting, easily reconcilable things. you got from national parks that was an even more novel idea. and it had come about. 1864 when the so many park bill was passed by congress, and it gave it carved out of the public domain. it out of the pool of federal land, yosemite valley, and the nearby mariposa grove of sequoia trees and you may remember that mariposa grove was in the news recently under dire threat from a wildfire which luckily was pretty much contained and didn't do too much damage to the trees and the the tract was deeded to california. the state of california to own and hold on to conditions is one that they manage it as a park and not make it open to the public and not make it a private of any sort to since as i said, it was such a novelty. the governor was told to appoint commissioners to advise him on how to manage this newfangled thing. well, it's just so happened that frederick law, mr. park, was in california at the time after, co-designing and superintending central park. he had moved he was a very pro unionist fellow. he had moved to become the head of the u.s. sanitary commission, a precursor to the red cross, which did terrific work for the boys in blue, supplying them nurses and crutches and bandages and even a little amenities to make their lives as soldiers a little easier. everything from books to brandy and maybe sometimes books and brand. and after that, he kind of burned out on job. he did it very well. he got the sanitary commission up and running, but he had some conflicts with the states, some the states wanted their money and their bandages and their whatever to go to their boys only. so the michiganders, for example, wanted all their contributions to go to the michigan regiments. and olmstead, just as i said, being a very strong unions unionist, wanted this all to be one united effort. and he didn't want this to be divided up that way. and there were other frustrations and he was kind of a boring workaholic and he was burned out. so he took what he thought would be a more cushy job and also a more lucrative one. he accepted the job of ceo of the mariposa state not to be confused with the mariposa grove of sequoias. mariposa is spanish for butterfly. it has a really lovely sound to it and early californians slap that word on to all sorts of things in california. so it's just kind of a coincidence. the mariposa state was 70,000 acres of land in the sierra foothills, which were it was a private property. olmstead was supposed to make the goldmines on this property pay, and he didn't do that. it was not his fault there, just wasn't enough. golden dams, our hills. so that didn't work out. but he did stay in the job for a couple of years and while he was there, the yosemite park bill was passed. and so the governor noticed that he was in california. it was brought to his attention and he was not only appointed to the commission, he was made its chairman and he took that duty so seriously as he did all of his duties that over the next year, from 64 to summer of 65, he worked on what became his 7500 word report, laying out his ideas for how to manage this thing and the center will point to two central things about it as this hall pointed out, olmstead was very much a small d democrat. he really believed that things should be done for all people and that people that were not as well off as others should be in some ways raised up to the same level as they. and so he thought park was a great opportunity to do that, and he argues in this report the government really has a duty to make these kinds of park. nobody had ever set a really probably thought that before. it was really a an innovation. and then he laid down sort of a rule of philosophy on how to manage this new entity that was basically really don't do much to improve it. the word improving marks only put in a few cabins let's have a maybe a peripheral around the valley so that people can ride around in on horses or in carriages. and we certainly want to have a significantly improved road to get to, say, stockton, which was probably the the place that was most people would travel to then come to yosemite and at the time, it was sometimes a three or four day journey to get, say, from san francisco to yosemite. and most people couldn't afford the time or the money. so that road was also important. so that was what the report said. unfortunately it didn't do as well as it should have because the governor didn't act on it. and in fact, he actually told the legislature here that he never received a report. and that's a whole different, somewhat complicated story. maybe we'll get to that sometime during the day, but i won't tell it now. why that was done. but the report lived on to some extent because of how it got into newspaper articles, which kind of gave the gist of what was in the report. and one writer in particular, samuel bowles, who was the owner and editor of the springfield, massachusetts, republican, which was widely thought to be the best small town paper in the country at that time, added a new element when he gave his account of olmsted's report, he said, you know, this doesn't have to be a one shot deal. we can do this elsewhere. it's such a great idea. let's replicate it. and he named in his report for his paper three sites that he thought be worthy. the adirondacks or niagara falls. and he represented that the lake in maine was the surrounding woods. he sort of struck out because none of those ever became national parks. but still, in the idea was out there and he was taking up that next step. well, then we're going to leap forward to 1890. olmstead never went back to yosemite after he left in 1865 and went back to new york to become a a lifelong landscape architect. but he heard rumors and they weren't they were true, actually, not just rumors that his name was being used in california, too, saying he supported a proposal to thin out the small trees in yosemite valley because they were just kind of getting in people's way and blocking views and all that sort of thing. and he lashed back in this long letter and said, no, i didn't say a word about that. i don't necessarily support that. i think it's something that really needs to be studied carefully and then the end of the letter, he reiterate his central recommendation for how to manage great natural areas. and he, i think, put it a little bit better. he said no artifice shall intrusion should be allowed in one of these parks unless it's absolute necessary to for the enjoyment of the access of who want to use it. then we jump ahead a little farther and we show how olmsted's report lives on. after his death, he died in 1903. toward the end, his life, his son, ric frederick olmstead jr had become his right hand man and then after his father's death, he took over the firm, the olmsted brothers firm and as time went on and the became more national parks, too, big problems were needed. correction one was that the army was managing most of the parks and they weren't doing a bad job, but it really wasn't a great fit. for one thing, officers in the army didn't especially want to be assigned to national parks. it was off the career path. it really was not a great way to be promoted in the army to be offered the national park and then country wise, some army people would get there and they would absolutely love the job, but they wouldn't be able to stay very long if they were told they had to report to duty somewhere else. they had to say, yes, sir, and go. so that was one problem. the other was that the different parks were really being managed in somewhat different ways, and there really needed to be a unified approach. all of this was taking care of in the 1916 so called parks organic act and who was the best person to advise congress on how to write the act? none other than rick olmstead. and so he was the principal draft of the law a lot of his ideas got into it and he perpetuated so it established the national park service, which took over from the army and has done this wonderful job to this day. and also reiterated the fathers philosophies that we've now heard in the original report, in the 1890 letter and in the organics act. it's put slightly differently, but it's there. it's a direct extension of seniors philosophy for how to for how to approach national parks. it's to make the parks available for today's generation to use without impairing their ability to do the same for future generations. so it's the same basic idea don't do anything unless it really helps people use the parks in a good in a harmless way. well, i think with that we have a little bit of an overview for the of the report. and i'll go ahead introduce the first speaker. jason newman is the superintendent of what else, the frederick law homestead national historic site. he also has a separate hat on today. not really, but he's filling in. he's the acting superintendent of the new new river gorge national park and preserve and he told me before we started that the preserve is added on because it's one of the few national parks where hunting is permitted. so with that, jason, i'll turn it over to you. thank. good morning, everybody. so i go by jay. so jay newman, it was a very nice intro. at least for another week. i'm at new river gorge, so i'm wearing i'm trying to get the olmsted hat back on. and it's sort of fitting. so. well, i want to i want to thank any opie when i think i'd like to thank the architect of the capitol, james, who was here before and really everybody for attending today. you know, i've been saying it's just really good to see folks and to be attending, to be presenting or attending, you know, events like this. so it's just it's wonderful, you know, washington is a symbol of democracy. i think we heard all about the wonderful sites in the area and the olmsted olmsted senior in the firm had a big hand in the design of the capitol grounds around the landscaping, around the white house, the cathedral and so much more. and and kim mentioned teddy roosevelt island or theodore roosevelt island. if you're talking to a descendant. so i worked at george washington memorial parkway for a few years. and and you get a chance to see you know, just these wonderful places and and that that impact of olmstead in pretty much everything, which is which is amazing. so a little bit about the site, frederick, on the national storage site. so in 1971 ornament richardson, the last partner of the olmsted associates, wrote to the national park service to gauge interest in preserving the olmsted home and the office in brookline, massachusetts. and while sending his note up the chain, then the regional director, george h. palmer noted the property was, quote, considered by many to be the tangible site and the link to the beginning of both landscape architect tours and the fort and formal planning in this country and if the house and its context merit action, the olmsted story might become a special feature of the centennial centennial year, end quote. and you know, that was, you know, 40 years before the 2016 centennial. so a bit of a bit of thinking there. and it was, you know, taking almost 100 years of landscape design or firm and transfer to the park service. and we end today. we still continue that stewardship or at least continue, you know, so this not breaking the service of what the firm has been doing and how we support the many researchers that come in to ask about plans or to you know, potentially you know, manage or resurrect homestead sites. so i think we're trying to continue that olmstead legacy, not only as a as a park service site, but also, you know, within the the archives themselves. so the original homestead national storage site entered the national park service in 1979, and it endures in 1979. it was the only national parks ever site to be enabled. so it's a it's a fun fact. also, year before my birth, that's another maple legislation reads, end quote. in order to preserve interpret for the benefit, inspire nation and education of present and future generations. the home and office of fredrick homestead, the great american landscape architect and designer there is hereby establishing, end quote. and there is, you know, today, public access to the site through programing, public tours, walks, talks about olmstead design, landscapes, especially the landscape that we have at the site, which is probably one of the most preserved. and we also host an winning education program embedded in the local curriculum to support the goals of responsible citizenship, successful learning and generational stewardship, which i always try to come back to. and i think kim mentioned it. you know, folks you know, people come, visitors come to national parks and they learn to become advocates, but they also learn to become stewards and conservationists. and so i think it's really important, whether it's a national park or public park or just an open space, i think those are those are the types of ideals that are really important for us. you know, fair said is when i first came to the site in 2018, i learned very quickly that it is a place of places. it represents so much. i mean thousands of different whether it's plans or actual places that were designed. and some visitors come just to you know, we get a lot folks at the park that want stamps. i don't know if you collect stamps. we have stamp the national park service stamp collectors. there's got to be more than a couple now. right. so we have we have folks that come to the park to get their stamp, but then, you know, learn about the history and then and then you just you start engaging with the visitors and you find out that there's this little bit of aha! moment. oh, i didn't realize it was an olmstead site. oh, i didn't realize that the park in my neighborhood. so, you know, the connection to a park or school or, you know, or neighborhood that was designed so so that's that's really interesting dynamic. i think at the site. and we also have a master list that helps to to to support that. so quote the secretary shall administer the site including personal property composing archival collection, end quote. and so in that enabling legislation for the site, it's really unique imagining the preservation and access of archives in addition to the physical features on site provides access to the archives through the conservation digitization, which really does open in my mind the the access to the site. not everybody can get to a national park service site, but having that those resources available has really, you know, opened up. i think, to a greater understanding of what the firm did. and so while, you know, while we talk about fair said as a place of places, it's the archives that are the soul of the site. or at least that's what we tell people. and i believe it's so you know, for years, researchers have enjoyed access to the collections in the place they were created. this still continues today, but now combined with a wider, as i mentioned, access. and so we we post many of our plans on flickr it's just one of the ways that we handle that. and to give you an idea, i think we have about two and a half or maybe 3 million hits a year on flickr. so for a small site like ours, i know anthony's a back there archivist and you could probably mention the he's raising his hand, but you know millions of hits gives a really interesting perspective of how our our resources are being used. so you don't need to be coming through door excuse me for for people a certain age. could you tell us what flickr is. it is a web site. so it is a is a is a place where you can post picture probably not going to find as well. but you can upload photos, files like that and you can you can go ahead and view it. it's it's searchable there. there's metadata tied to it. so, again, i know, anthony, if you want to ask more about flickr and how to get to it, will, we'll be able to provide that. so yeah, i'm also starting to get that age where i try to sound smart about the interwebs, but that's so the national park service is the the steward of over 420 sites of natural and cultural significance. so as you can imagine, the park service is full of anniversaries. and of course, we've gathered for the olmstead bicentennial, but much of that we'll hear about today is the product of another momentous anniversary, the centennial, as i mentioned, in 2016. and the park service is responsible. and we talk a lot about the why parks you know, the history, but the park service does encompass this wide range of places that we we've deemed important to protect. so everything from small cultural sites like fair said to the park i'm currently at new river gorge national park and preserve, which is the newest national park in the system. and so it's the importance of olmstead. the sun confirmed to the nps story and you know, we have other parks, i think it was mentioned we have acadia, yosemite, everglades, the rock creek. i have a list here because if i don't say them in the park, we'll hear this and they'll say, you should have set us so. so sort of having those elements of design by olmstead and it's firm members so as national park service prepared to celebrate its centennial the ideas of people like theodore roosevelt john muir, george catlin and carleton watkins, which are some of the names recognized for their contributions to creating america's best idea, the national park service. but it also became apparent that the name olmstead would be left off this list, and it was important to amplify the generational impacts of the homesteads on the agency and this country and more was needed to daylight these accomplishments. it was from this void that the national park service commission, a comprehensive study, led by ralph dehaven. we hear from in a moment, ethan carr and lauren meyer, to better understand these immense contributions to spanning a contribution spanning from the monu mental writings of yosemite report and the organic act, which created the national park service to the enduring conservation efforts to the expansive design work within the park service itself. this report produced a robust body of research and design on the i'm sorry, on the design and planning work of frederick olmsted senior. his sons george charles olmstead and fredrick olmstead jr and their many associates and, the olmsted office. much of this research was well in line with the core goal of the park service as it entered its second century emphasis really focusing on an emphasis on lesser known or secondary stories of sites that we care for within the park service. we've become accustomed to our origin story in the founding law, most often, including a campfire. but which we all get sucked into. but. but their research challenges the story. you know, this the research that was done challenges the story in the best way possible. and i want to take a moment. ralph is a former superintendent of the site. also former superintendent of other sites in the park service and really a friend of the site, ethan, provide, you know, many years of research tied to the site lawmaker to learn of you know worked many years with with the park service and his continued to just be your friend and we use the term friend loosely or friends loosely in the park service but we they're incredibly important. so i want to thank the three of them for for all the hard work over the years. so as continue to celebrate the bicentennial year of olmsted's birth. we appreciate ralph and ethan for bringing this research to a broader audience through the publication of their book, olmstead in yosemite civil war, abolition and the national park idea. what i appreciate about this and the work of ethan and ralph is that they have turned the mirror back on the nps asking us as an agency to look deeper and wider into our founding. their conclusions offer an opportunity for readers to explore frederick law, olmsted's park idea and the question and question in its absence in the national park service history is in, as you know, as we come into the we're well into the 200th year you know, at the national level we have almost 200 at the local level in in boston, in massachusetts, we have olmsted now. we've we've developed we have a multitude of partners commemorating the continued legacy of olmsted's values, of democratic space and accessibility and again, in our local massachusetts olmsted now with we have specific themes related to shared use shared health and shared power. i cannot think of a more appropriate story to amplify this than that of the olmsted firm. so i just want to say again, it's we have that the importance of access to our sites and and i think always that conflict between access and design and how we would like to use those sites and it develops the advocacy, develops the stewardship. so it's just it's these themes that i really do take to heart. so i really, again, appreciate everybody being here and want to pass it back. yeah. so i think what i'm going to do is have ralph go and then we'll have a q&a and that sort of thing. okay. well, i too am a great fan of of ralph and ethan cars book. well, i'll first i'll introduce him and then i'm going to kind of feature that little question about sarah to start off with. sure, sure. if you would, just. and then you can go on to. yeah, ralph dumont is a landscape architect, adjunct associate professor of history preservation at the university of vermont and former superintendent of five national parks, including, as we just found out, the frederick law olmsted national historic site. he regularly contributes to the journal of parks stewardship forum and is coeditor and contributor editor of a thinking persons guide to america's national parks. who wouldn't want to read a book like that? that sounds like what talk. oh, great. so one of the reasons i love this book is when i was doing my research for mine, i kept an eye out for a woman who might have contributed something significant to the idea of national parks. and i just couldn't find one. but these two gentlemen have a named sarah shaw. maybe not contributing directly, but making some very astute comments on what parks mean to us in a letter to frederick olmstead. so with that, ralph, i'll throw it over to you. dennis yes. thank you, jane. well, tearing off that historic resource study sponsored by jay in the national park service and the frederick law, homestead national historic site, ethan carr and i decided to do a deep dive and look specifically at olmstead park and conservation work in the context of the civil war and his stead adherence to the mid-19th century ideology of the republican party, which was union social improvement and opposition to slavery slavery. as a journalist traveling extensively through the antebellum south, olmstead wrote, it was the duty. quote, it is the duty of every man to oppose slavery, to weaken it, and to destroy it in his opinion, there was no greater impediment to the nation's progress than the institution of slavery. we were particularly intrigued by that. 1865 yosemite report, which above all sought to explain the wider meaning of yosemite at, the close of the civil war, and what the future of parks, all public parks would be in a reunion, dated and reconsidered, dated country. we believe it's useful to take a look at the past age of the cemetery act in context to another piece of legislation. the college land grant act. many of you probably have been to or attended land grant colleges are familiar with that, but the first attempt to pass that piece of legislation was before, just before the civil war, and it was sponsored actually by the senator justin morel was then congressman from vermont, who was mentioned a little bit earlier, i think by deedy. he was a fellow republican. that bill that was introduced in 1859 was vetoed by this gentleman, james buchanan, and who used his veto pen in fact, on a number of pieces of sponsored legislation. when morel introduced that act, that that bill, that first bill, it was not welcomed by southern democrats. senator clement, clay, alabama, the leading the democratic opposition to the bill. described it as one of, quote, the most monstrous inequities and dangerous measures ever submitted to the halls of congress. he said, if people demand the patronage of the federal government for agriculture and education, it is because they have been come debauched and led astray, he went on. he went on to describe the bill as a magnificent bribe that would encourage alabama, quote, to surrender to the federal power. her original land reserve right to manage her own domestic and internal affairs. of course, he was talking about slavery. congressman william williamson cobb, also from alabama, warned that a dangerous precedent was fact being set and declared that public lands public lands should only be sold and generate revenue for the national treasury in lieu of taxes because there wasn't any tax in those days and any internal taxes and not be used for any purpose than generating revenue as one another. southern congressmen cautioned, quote, such grants would only be the beginning of giving away public land until there was nothing left. they, of course, were committed to the unrestricted expansion, slavery, which would have viewed setting aside public lands for conservation or recreation with similar alarm as they viewed the land, college land grant bill. in our book, we therefore make a case that had congressional and legislature been introduced for the 17 grant or even the more radical idea of a yellowstone national park. in either congress. in an in an earlier congress, in the pre-war congress. such proposals would have been subject to the same rhetorical assault and would have been defeated or would have been vetoed. south carolina senator james hammond had declared on floor of the u.s. senate, infamously, cotton is king and the absolute power of cotton quote, would bring the whole world to our feet. if economic power was not enough, violence would be used even on the floor of the senate where in 1856, massachusetts senator charles sumner was nearly beaten to death by south carolina representative preston brooks before war. before the civil war, pro-slavery politicians washington were content with relatively weak central government, its limited responsable polities would include delivering the u.s. protecting on the frontier and pursuing fugitive slaves. they preferred financing that small government through the sale of public land in, lieu of personal taxes. thus avoiding taxation on the inner most wealth that was being accumulated with enslaved labor. in. the same year that moral introduced this land grant bill into congress and it was vetoed. olmstead and vaulks were completing their design for new york's central park. both the proposal for agricultural colleges in every state and the creation of a great public park in the largest city in the american republic were. defiant acts challenging a weak national government constrain by the demands of slavery. when central park, in fact, first opened in 1858, it was described in the atlantic monthly as the most striking evidence yet of the sovereignty of the people in the history of free institutions. the best answer yet, given to the doubts and fears which have frowned upon the theory of self-government. olmstead himself described the park, quote as a democratic development of the highest importance. now we come back to sarah shaw, our book was, in fact, inspired by the words of sarah blake shaw, who is a social reformer and abolitionist and her words really served as an epigram for our story in 1861 and very shortly after the war began, shaw wrote olmstead, quote, if we can remake the government, abolish slavery and get central park well underway, we shall have done a work worthy of 19th century and ought to be willing to suffer. or suffering. in fact, was not rhetorical. two years later, her 25 year old son, robert gould shaw, commander of the 54th massachusetts regiment, died alongside more than 100 black soldiers attacking fort outside of charleston harbor. but shaw was, already looking beyond victory in the battlefield to a future that would justify the terrible war that was before her eyes. in her letter to olmstead, she framed the conflict, an opportunity to reinvent the nation and replace a political that had long sanctioned slavery. her vision was also associated with creating a great public park, an achievement representative of the kind of civic progress that she hoped for for the country. now the title of olmsted's well-known book on, the slave states the cotton kingdom, is, in fact an ironic reference to those words of senator james hammond. now, the book, olmsted's book included very unusual map displaying the population of enslaved people recorded by county. this map on the lower right, which very interesting is that that derivation of this map was later used during the civil war by abraham lincoln personally to guide the recruitment of formerly enslaved freedmen into ranks of the united states army and. you can see in the lower right hand, lower lower slide in, the right hand corner where the red arrow is pointing is in fact, in this painting by, francis carpenter, bicknell olmstead, meeting with his cabinet is in fact a copy. that map olmstead clearly understood, as he wrote in the new york times and an that black resistance and self emancipation in large numbers by fleeing enslavement would hollow out the confederacy and accelerate its collapse. this great movement of freed people and their new alliance with federal armies would also eventually place enormous pressure on the lincoln administra to advance its own plans for legal emancipation emancipation. now, once the war was well underway, republicans enjoyed a majority in both houses of congress. the democrats, southern democrats had all resigned, left and were fighting, a lot of them fighting for the confederacy. and it became increasingly clear that there would be no negotiated settlement to this war, and there would be no the united states to its pre-war status quo. congress then engineered an extraordinary expansion of the scope and duties of the national government. fundamental fundamentally remaking the republic. congress. the lincoln administration sought to build, in fact, a more activist republic focused on improvements that would serve large numbers of people. legislation was passed a national banking and revenue system creation of a new department of agric culture and land grants for railroads, homesteading and education, including the passage of the reintroduced college land grant bill. now an act. the capstone to what has been called the second american revolution was congressional authorization for recruiting black soldiers into the united states army, followed by lincoln's release of his prelim and every emancipation proclamation. now taken as a whole, these measures affirm the efficacy and the value of republican government, the united states and in necessity of defending it. in in 1864, when congress granted yosemite valley, the state of california, to create a public park, it did so as olmstead declared, quote, in trust for the whole nation. the act was yet another land grant like the land grant college act. it was a modest but eventually very consequential part of a wave of wartime legislation. now, for many years, there have been lots of historians who have been a loss to explain the yosemite act, considering its passage at the time. an anomaly out of step with policy, a great mystery. they could not comprehend. congress would take the time out to deal with yosemite. the war going on, and the great emergency the country was facing. abraham lincoln on other hand, believed if the rebellion was allowed to interfere with the continuity and functioning of constitutional government, quote it might fairly claim to have already conquered and ruined us. the yosemite act. in fact. we would argue ethan and i was yet another component of national legislation and reforms that funded remade the united states into a without enslaved people that preserved the union and it to assume a form. the republic was still deeply flawed. the subjugation of native americans abated at least, but at least the country was moving towards still unattainable ideals that the nation had been on while in california. as denis was asked to draft a report on the future of yosemite as a public park. but he used that opportunity not to create a master plan. the planning part of the report is only four pages out of 26, but he used the balance of the report, the bulk of the report to explain a wider meaning and signify accounts of this act. the yosemite act drew its inspiration. new york city's central park and the purpose of the new park and the justifications for government to act in making it, as olmstead explained, were entirely consistent with what he had described several years earlier. at central park. both demonstrated the republic's ability to meet the needs of large numbers of its citizens, even as it was being denounced monarchists in europe and violently attacked by secessionists here at home. however, without final union victory, aided by a 180,000 black soldiers legislation for yellowstone and the early national parks that were based on the assembly template might never have been enacted enacted. however, this narrative was largely erased in the early 20th century. in order to distance national parks from any association with the trauma and controversy of the civil war and its aftermath, much of the country white reconciliation and a lost cause narrative that nostalgically glamorize the old south and rehabilitate the leaders of the confederacy. jim crow legislation and practices reversed, hard fought rights gains made during reconstruction. this was happening just as political momentum was building in washington to create a national park service and i concluded some photographs in this slide. a lot of things going on here, but course the birth of the nation was shown in this building as well as the white house, the national park service and its first southern states that were for southern national parks fact had segregated facilities as the lewis mountain campground was such in shenandoah national park. and even the dedication, even the dedication of the lincoln memorial this year, event seating was segregated. so not surprisingly, early national park service supporters and leaders clear of any reference to the olmsted's report. and yosemite as in general olmstead, was too closely identified with central park when the new parks were being marketed as a born in the west, not in the east and was well-known for writing books that forcefully condemned the old south. and he was too closely identified with anti-slavery and union sentiment when the civil war was in fact being reinterpreted across the nation through the lens of the lost. so the campfire tales that dennis referenced or jay were are in fact, the early stories, early founding stories of the national park service were largely invention and attributed rugged explorers or either rugged or heroic conservationists. such as teddy roosevelt and john muir, who in fact did meet year 17, 1903. but as was pointed out, they weren't the progenitors of the national park service idea that occurred 30 years earlier, but they served these narratives as comfortable and affirming creation stories unencumbered by any reference to an government working on behalf freedom, equality and the remaking of the republic. but if the parks represent a commitment to public well-being, the public did not include everyone. the establishment of a park in yosemite would follow the dispossession a decade earlier of the miwok people and other people from. their valley homes. early writers who describe yosemite valley as untrammeled wealden ness willfully overlooked countless generations of human occupation. indigenous people were never included. the beneficiaries of abraham lincoln's new birth of freedom as they were forced out of ancestral lands repurposed to expedite republican policies. this injustice must be acknowledged in any concert, in any discussion of conservation, legacy. so looking at the yosemite report in olmsted's long career in park making, can we make of his influence and continue in influence today then and today. i would say first the civil war and the social revolution. it fueled enabled the public park to emerge in our national identity and as an essential institution. american democracy. in the yosemite report, olmstead warned against the monopolization quote of the natural natural scenes in the country and the means of recreation connected with them by. a very few very rich people. he affirmed every person's entitlement to enjoy the nation's most spectacular places. he created an intellectual framework for a system of national parks, but more generally a framework for the american parks movement with publics spaces being established by every level of government in. the report he asserted that government had the responsibility to establish these great public grounds for the free enjoyment of all the people. and that was a duty of government. he believed, in fact, that it was a compelling obligation that must be supported on an equal footing with all its other duties. and he hoped for a government acting on behalf of equity and benevolence, a bloody civil war was fought, reaffirm affirming the legitimacy of national sovereignty with the adoption of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the u.s. constitution. the federal government was positioned to be the guarantor of civil rights, including the right to vote that had previously been the responsibility of state governments to interpret and restrict, as they saw fit. this expanded national authority would be yet further extended in establishing the 2 million acre yellowstone national park. in 1872. olmstead had pressed for a guarantee of broad public access to great parks and public reservations for public health. recreation and mental well-being, which was in fact finally codified with the passage of the 1916 national park service. organic act. this access, he believe, was the right of citizens. citizens ship rather than prerogative of wealth or influence. and olmstead believed, as lincoln did, that it was appropriate for a republic to level the playing field. all its people. he spoke, quote, of the pursuit of happiness against obstacles and quote, just as lincoln spoke, the civil war, quote, as a struggle for maintaining in the world that form and substance government whose leading object is to elevate the condition of men. so finally, why is important today. well carr and i would make the case in our book for linking early park and conservation history to this broader struggle for freedom, equity and democracy in america. having a more contextual and founding narrative for the parks that also acknowledges the enduring connection of indigenous people to these lands will enable more communities to see themselves as part of this legacy, not apart from the legacy. and we'll create a more diverse system of national parks and public lands that better represents the collective experience of all americans. since the campfire myth, i think, is the way it's known has this campfire tale thing has come up a couple of times i thought would just say a little bit about it and there's an ingenious argument that your your book makes about it. i think. so the idea was that this was propounded mostly by horace albright, who was the second superintend or second director of the national park service, succeeding stephen mather at the 50th anniversary of yellowstone. it's true that a bunch of montanans went to explore yellowstone ahead of the hayden army. hayden governmental expedition to following year that led to the actual enactment of the yellowstone park act. and they claimed basically that at a campfire at the end of their traipsing through yellowstone, they were all sitting around and somebody said, well, you know, this is such a wonder for a fabulous country. why don't we each file a claim under the public land laws for a section of it, and then we'll be able to make money off it and go to town. and one of them said, you know, why don't we not do that? why don't we instead, you know, do the noble thing and recommend that it become a public park? and that's how the national park idea was put into supposedly. that's the campfire myth. well, by the time the 50th anniversary, hundredth anniversary of yellowstone came along and 1972, the i think by then he was a former national historian, aubrey haines pretty much put that myth to rest. he didn't think that if there was such a fire side discussion that it really went as that. as i just talked about it. and maybe you want to say in your book you nicely, i think dovetail into the your main argument about what happened after the civil war. well, you have people know horace albright lived to a ripe old age and he was he loved the story. and there was no moving him off the story. and so by the time the 100th centennial anniversary, yellowstone came around, they did a reenact of this. i showed a slide of really to please albright because the service's own historians had pretty well it at that point. but, you know, he was a kind of revered. and no one wanted to upset him in his nineties. so anyway, it's it's a when the historian for the national park service aubrey aubrey haines. wrote his report on this he was very specific told the regional his regional director at the time who was a former of yellowstone. the park service should deal with literal and not deal with propaganda. and he got back a memo from his boss saying it's a good story. we're sticking with it. so all these, you know, first narratives are tough to debunk once, once the story gets ingrained, it's it's it's hard to move away. and when that's that campfire tale finally pushed to the side, to some extent, still around, they had to find, in fact, a replacement, had to find replacement. so they came up with a second campfire, you know, in keeping with the style, that's the night that teddy roosevelt and john muir spent under the stars in 1903 absolutely happened. no, it was it was at yellowstone. excuse me. it was that it was at yosemite. it was there's a picture of them. i think it's glacier point. sheldon could correct me. glacier point. good. now they talked about a lot things, including reuniting yosemite park because there was the at that point there had been a federal park created. but that the valley itself, the mariposa grove, was still under state authority. so that's the treatment of that their campfire, i'm sure. muir muir roosevelt's ear off. but but that was probably the outcome of that conversation. they didn't come up with the idea for national parks as pointed out, when yosemite was in the works, even, you know, roosevelt was was a kid was was a small child. and and muir was working a sawmill in ontario, canada. and they didn't they didn't they didn't come up with the brainchild of a national park service. in fact, roosevelt was very determined right up to the end of his administration to move the existing national parks in under gifford bingo and the u.s. forest service anyway so that is a little off as well. so it's overdue to take a fresh look at. well, the two quick things. i when i was interior horace albright would three or four times a year write a stinging letter to my boss, assistant secretary, saying, why don't you do this in the park service. why don't you just do that at the other park? and my job was to draft the replies and i had to find new and interesting ways to say basically, horace because, we don't have the money. i was going to ask you, jay what do people ask you about olmsted when they come to the site? what's the most common inquiry, perhaps. still don't have the with that. so i think visitors, you know, we're a lesser i think we're lesser site. so i think a lot of the folks that do come through the door know a bit, you know a bit about olmstead. and as i mentioned before, i think those folks that do come in that don't know much about olmsted, they're really surprised on how much senior the sons, the firm, you know, much that influenced public public placemaking the country, i think i think that's but for specific questions i think think, you know, sometimes somebody will come in and say, you know, this has got to be an olmsted site. feels like an olmsted know like they'll have a neighborhood or park and then, you know, our rangers, i mean, they a lot of stuff off the top of their head. they'll say, well, i'm not don't think so. and then i'll go to the master list and say that it's not an olmsted site, but it has the field olmsted. so it's interesting that they come through the door thinking about this and then which is fine. i mean, influence, i think starts to starts to be in a lot of other other places in our olmsted projects. so well, we're running short on time. so i see if there are any questions from the audience that we could try to answer before we wind up. any anything? yes. over there. the yeah. jake, can explain the success of olmsted online and then for specifically me how that might be different from flickr. or i think you're asking the one question i may not be able to fully answer there. there are two distinct services and sites and there's a history here and oh, i don't want to butcher it. and i think that's why i have anthony in the crowd to maybe help anthony. you want to maybe take that one at the read archivist for national. yeah. like the like and i'm so happy he's here. you're welcome to pay me later. so olmsted online product of national association for said parks, is a mapping function that takes some data that we've collected over time of longitude latitudes of a mapping and i think and again have correct me who may olmsted online being a good product to out what's in your neighborhood what's going on with the local is it still olmstead in is it not what's the best entrance to those parks who to contact if it's not a thing that park service cannot do the evaluative the sort of what's what's the active extent versus what we can do is document we have a separate maps that just says for the olmstead work built or not built here's the latitude we have of the documents. so those are two separate projects. olmsted online as in any o.p product, our mapping project is just for what the documents say, not evaluative flickr has is our digital repository of photograph albums and plans so if you're looking for the research materials, our comprehensive catalog is one aspect to do just the text based. and then you can go to flickr to find out what has been digitized of the plans, photos, albums to see what's available to the public in a digital format. so flickr being a fairly common photo sharing for most folks. my mom uses flickr for her travel, so we use it as sort of our research portal for the digitized versus what's available for the library of congress material and, our material homestead national historic site for proper research, comprehensive that at other yes. hi thanks so much for the panel we're off i'm very interested to read your book now. i haven't read it yet and i really appreciate the way that you're putting the national parks in the context of the history, you know, equity, justice in this country and especially in the context of the civil war. so maybe you this as well in your book, but the other war that occurs to me is very important in the history of the national parks, is of course, the us-mexico war, which, of course, you know, mexico lost half of its territory and that's where a lot of these charismatic sites that helped to establish the national parks were were located. and you addressed in your presentation and in your book about ways that an indigenous were left out of this vision of equity and justice. and of course the treaty of guadalupe alcohol was also being violated in the establishing of parks and, you know, squatting, going after the us-mexico war and after the civil war. so mexican-americans were also, you know, not included in this vision. so, you know, this opportunity that we have with, you know, the 200 year retrospective on olmsted's life, i feel like gives us an opportunity to do exactly the things that you're doing to to try to scrutinize this the history and the ways that are including our vision of equity and justice and, you know, ways that we haven't quite up to it. so i wonder if this is also an opportunity to say, okay, you know, we've been doing it in this way for quite while now, is is there a major shakeup that can give to this to this particular approach of public lands right. i mean, we're we're hearing and know that there's a lot that's that's good about it, right? there's protecting places. but you know, it it kind of is is beginning to dawn on me that the way that we set aside places as public places kind of enables the commodification ocean of the places that are not set aside as public places. and i wonder if we're at it at a point in history where we can really that approach and say, let, let's invent a new kind of commons where it's not just limited to these public places that we set aside, but that we want to expand on these values beyond the confines of those zones. so a bit of a kind, you know, trying to envision what we can do at this moment as we're looking back on all this amazing work. thanks. well, you. that was well said. if if i our book has done anything that if it if it encourages this kind of a conversation, it will have done a good deed and you know, there's no easy short answer to you've raised it's really another symposium. yeah, that's right. but yeah. yeah, yeah. and maybe it be addressed later in today's panel maybe in the afternoon. i look forward to that. one more. make a quick if you because we're running i'm dr. susan olmsted and i was wanting to link to something that kim said about access and i don't know where this comment will belong in the day, but there's a major supreme court ruling, 1999 about the americans with disabilities act. it's the olmstead law for increased access. so when you were talking about access for the people to parks i just thought you might like to know that there's an update on that with better ramps, fewer steps, more access for people with disabilities, it's inclusive. maybe you have said, but. well, thank you very much. i think it's time to have a coffee break and really appreciate your listening to us. well done. thank