of traditional libraries. hosted by zocalo public square. this is about an hour and ten minutes. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> i feel like i should behave somehow. there is a slight stigma. i'll try to behave. >> you haven't so far. [ laughter ] >> part of why we're here is to celebrate this library and this is coinciding with that. i wanted to start sort of soft and fuzzy before i really try to go antilibrary on these people. you what? i told them i warned them, beforehand i hate libraries and so one of the striking things i've been talking to people for weeks preparing for this, people have really wonderful memory, childhood memories of libraries in particular and when they first got -- the favorite moments. could we start -- i have to introduce you, my goodness. to my left, susan hill dredge is the former director of the institute of museum and library services. a president alley appointed senate confirmed position. she's currently a professor of practice at the university of washington information school and treasury of the american library association. to her left is the director of the center for the future of libraries and initiative of the american library association examining innovation and libraries and the communities they serve. and finally, susan parker, who is the deputy university library at ucla where she leads building design and serves as the library's chief final officer. let me start with you, susan parker, favorite library moment or -- and/or what do you like about libraries? aren't you sick of them? if you work in a fast food joint, you stop eating it, do you still likely braers. >> there are a place obviously that i feel very comfortable. i likely braers and that's one of the things that tracted me to libraries and kept me coming back is it's a place where i was always welcome even as a small child so you develop affection for people who treat you kindly and more so they lure you in with bigger and better books and you get excited about reading and thinking and looking things up. >> is there a moment in your childhood that you said this is the coolest place? >> well, probably the first time that i ever went in to was cincinnati, ohio, the west side, the public library over there and the first time that i went in there i was like this is the coolest thing. i'd seen books before but not that many books. >> very good. miguel, what's your fondest library memory and/or why do you like them? >> i think a lot of people have fond memories of libraries because they are welcoming places. i still remember you -- phoenix public library used to be a yellow card but it was laminated. it felt so adult. your licensed to do lots of different things. it's this tangible expression of sign of growth and opportunity and responsibility that -- it opens things to you. it's a predriver's license of sort. >> oh, my goodness. susan, favorite childhood moment in a library. >> i was an only child and i moved a lot as a child, so i would usually move after school got out and i would hit a new community and i would have no friends and what would i be doing in the summer, i would go to that library, so it was my second home. it was very special to me, welcoming to me and really the libraries and books were my friends and i think they really helped me early on decide to become a libraryen because i found many years ago a paper from junior high where i said i want to do this so it made me feel good when i was very young. >> do you recall the reason why you wanted to do that in that paper? >> frankly, because all though this doesn't work today. i didn't want to be a teacher. librarians have to want to teach today, i didn't want to be a nurse, i'm old enough that there wouldn't be that much choices and i knew i could have find a job anywhere in the u.s. >> did you want to leave your hometown? >> i wanted to be mobile. it wasn't so necessarily that i wanted to runway, i was growing up in the time where people got out of college and they left home. they didn't go back home. that's what i wanted to do. >> that was a dig. we've dispensed with the warm and fuzzy part and again talking to people about the bad things about libraries and the first thing and no disrespect to anybody was homeless and porn. last week they advertised that it was so hot everybody could go to the library. is that what library as cooling center. library has porn distribution. that irks a lot of people. people don't understand it. so can we just one of you say let's hit it head on. let's talk about homelessness, porn at the library. what do you do about that? is it a problem? maybe it isn't. >> having worked in many urban public libraries in my career, dealing with all kinds of customers and populations is challenging and we are one of the only free opportunities for people to come out of the cold, the heat, whatever and i think in terms of dealing with people who are homeless, we really want to make sure that we're trying to help them in their struggle. so for instance, the san francisco public library as well as many other libraries have social workers on duties to do some intervention. libraries have very thought out rules of conduct because we expect every one to behave so we have a safe, comfortable environment. that's how we deal with people with all different kinds of vagueries and also that has to do with issue of pornography and who's looking at inappropriate information. our codes of conduct really address that and as -- i have to say that i've said in previous interviews in terms of the porn, sorry folks but people have been looking at porn and masturbating in public libraries for a long time. we've had to deal with this for a long time, so honestly, it's not -- it's just in a different container as we say about all our information. >> there's a visual. you grim asat that. >> i can tell you that you may think that a person is homeless by the way that they look but you don't know that. and i think that again libraries are a place where we're trying not ton judgmentmental on those levels. when we had a budget crisis a few years back at ucla and we decide we had to rollback the 24/7 library at the undergraduate library, we heard from the student association right away that we had some homeless students at ucla, news to me, opened my eyes and they were depending on the library as part of their support system at night. so i think that since it was a lot of us were surprised to learn this, because you don't necessarily know by looking at people what the situation is that they're dealing with and so libraries traditionally are about helping people in a private way. i don't know the identity of everybody and i think that privacy in the library is a key element. >> you mentioned that the introduction of a social worker in san francisco. before i get to miguel, what year was that? do you recall? >> well, you know we began working with the department of social services when i was working there so that was probably 2004 and i believe they now have a full time social worker on staff and it's been for several years and it's addressing issues in helping our population. >> so, again, miguel, at some point does that pobably dilute to the purpose of -- is it some way making librarians responsible for social illinos t all of us should be attending to? are you guys so generous that you're going to help -- is there a limit to what you can do in that library? >> unfortunately we exist in a system where a lot of the normal services that would support mental health issues, poverty issues, et cetera have been stripped away whether because of the economy or other political decisions. so because the libraries among the few civic assets that is still relatively opened to lots of different people, that is inhe have tab taably what happens. the best libraries realize they can be part of a solution so they engage with our community partners whether it's public health worker, tucson public library has a nurse on staff, social workers on staff, relationships with public showers or public facilities, food banks other types of things. the library can be a fundamentally platform for lots of players in the community to come together, we're a wonderful distribution channel not only for information in book format or database format but also just general civic information. >> so to all of you at no point does attending to social ills make your jobs your primary jobs which is presumably distributing archiving and distributing information to the broader public, does it ever come into conflict with your aspects of injure jobs. >> we're responsible for providing information whether that's health information or whether that's where you can go get a meal. we're responsible for providing information. the one thing that i will say about the pornography, though, is it always comes back to that. >> if you have any available access to free information, it will be used towards some of its more negative ends. case in point, new york city introduced their link nyc key os beings, this past week they announced they would be disabling internet on them because individuals were using them for pornography. they could've asked librarians about this ahead of time but it isn't the nature of libraries. it's just the nature of information. >> or it's the nature of a free public place. >> correct. >> so this pugh research center survey it was very interesting, 2016 most recent on libraries, 69% of respondents say their local libraries contribute a lot of libraries provide a safe place for people to spend their time. 58% think they contribute a lot toward creating educational opportunities for people of all ages. so the notion of safe space actually had more respondents saying yes than the notion of creating educational opportunities. does that surprise you? >> it actually doesn't. >> i cannot read your face very well because you look slightly surprised. >> oh, well, no. it doesn't surprise me because i think that people do -- safe space especially in our contemporary society is more and more valuable. neutral space and so i think the people are seeking that. as much -- those numbers are pretty close. as much as they're seeking educational opportunity. >> you won't say that come november 9th at 69 and 58 are close. 11% -- so when did libraries become start to play that role of safe space? does anybody know? >> we've always played the role of safe space in our communities. i think that's a very consistent role and valued by our communities on our behalf. just in terms of that educational statistic, i think that, you know, there are many people -- many people who may not use libraries or not be as aware of libraries. they don't understand the role that libraries play in educating all ages, all levels in our community. libraries brand as books and many folks still think as libraries as book warehouses. we've gone far beyond that. depending on who pugh was surveying i don't think that everyone understands we are part of the educational ecosystem in our communities, all filling gaps every school, weekends so that educational role is crit critical but i don't think it's as recognized as i would like it to be. i talk about it constantly. >> our society is squha chipped. but increasing we're starting to recognize how important peer to peer learning is, facilitated learning. those have things that have always happened in a library. there may be a delay in recognizing that what we do is of educational value. it has always helped people grow as individuals. >> i find it odd that you say the link is not really caught because that's the number one link to me is that that's where you find books for education -- any way. so none of you think its odd that safe space comes before learning. >> no. >> i find a branding issue. the what is light braer for? you all say it's for all of these things. it's a hard thing in america when you can't say in this day and age when you say what something's principal reason for being is and i don't get from any of you what the principal reason is. so far it's everything. what won't you do? >> this thing about safe space is maybe more important today. if you asked that question to an audience ten years ago, it might not have resonated the safe way. another important library moment for me as a child is being able to have the privacy in a library to go and look up information that was maybe kept from me at home. and if you have young people who are gay or transor any number of situations that it's a safe space for people to find out about themselves. >> that's really interesting. it's say safe space intellectually as well. >> yes, absolutely. >> and that i would say maybe the libraries best brand because people want to contest what's contained in a library because they care very much about what messages people have access to. >> our value for intellectual freedom is still fundamentally to the work we do. >> one of the classic arguments for the necessity of libraries has been that they exist to nurture and enlighten and electorate. i'll let that lie. i'm obsessed. i'm sorry. is that true? is that still true? you're all going to say yes, it is. i'm not going to the library to look up opinion pieces and polls in florida today, i'm going on the web. >> one of the challenges that we're now facing is that there are multiple spaces where people are segmenting themselves into you so we have private health clubs, and we have starbucks or any coffee house and so we don't have the opportunity to mix any more. the public library hopefully remains one of those civic spaces where you encounter people from different perspectives where you're on a level playing field, where it isn't necessarily a program space where you have to do certain things. you're only allowed to engage with things. our society is tending to move towards a state where spending less time together. >> privatized space. >> if we can continue to play that role, i think that if city support libraries and community support libraries that the way they should and can, then we can move towards that. >> you mentioned starbucks and the starbucks -- they seek to be a place where people convene and read even. all sorts of cafe culture. does that in any way diminish the popularity or compete with libraries at all for that role? >> so i think it's funny as i look not only at coffee houses, they're trying to become more neutral spaces where your sole transaction is not the menu item. they want you to come in and work and socialize with friends and do lots of different things. but i worry that that always comes at a cost. it's funny that they're stealing a lot of the elements that have made libraries what they are. we've always allowed you to do any one of a number of things. you self-direct in the library. you can come in here and be who you are. i get to be a little worried -- i don't know if they're intentionally doing it but they're certainly taking some of the elements away from libraries. >> this is interesting. so i would think when you said there's more corporation seeking to create civic space and third places and -- >> at a cost. >> you have to pay for the latte, but you think it -- you see it as a threat, potential threat? >> i think it could be a potential threat. i think it should also be taking as a compliment to certain extent. we've been doing things the right way for a long time. we hope people become aware that there's -- you pay for that freedom in those spaces with your user data, by signing into their wi-fi networks by any one of a number of things. >> are there efforts in libraries across the country to create new ways to convene people, to -- >> i definitely think there are many ways. we've had a convening role in our history, but for instance, many public libraries have embarked on make your spaces which are really great opportunities to allow kids and families to be creative together. many ways we're engaging people, teen spaces, all different kinds of things. but in terms of your question about democracy and how are we supporting democracy, i think that libraries have a great opportunity to really take on a significant role as a community facilitator. there's so much i think dissension in some of our communities as we have segmented groups and the library can play the role of bringing those controversial groups together. now, when we do that and i think we see this in some areas, it could be clashing somewhat with our very much respected role of neutrality. so neutrality is a huge value for libraries and if we do get into the space of bringing different -- differing points of view together that's a huge service for our community. we can also support informational resources to understand those discussions but we also have to make sure we're very trained to do that effectively because we don't want to lose that concept of being a neutral place. >> so the function of enlightenning the electoralate with come from something like this more than providing information. >> right, yes. >> do you have any thoughts on that? >> i do think so. at ucla for example, we provide a lot of public programming in the library that's opened to anyone not just the university community but on a range of topics, sometimes it's designed to highlight collections that we have especially if they relate particularly to los angeles so depending on the library and the focus, they may be able to convene even curate audiences that are defined in ways like you want to hear about art from this one art expert and look at the paintings that are on display next door. so there's different combinations to do that, but libraries definitely are very forward in looking at programming and trying to convene different kinds of interactions. >> so more on third spaces, miguel. do you envision evolution of this? are there any -- as this competition occurs as you see it, what are -- how are libraries -- will convening be a larger function in 20 years than it is now in a library? >> i think we see libraries arranging their space iz so we make available for flexible sitting. you can go into a library and rearrange the furniture. the librarians don't get mad. >> not any more, no. >> they were designed that way in a lot of ways. we see greater opportunity for multi-functional spaces. spaces that can be a maker space one day, that can have auditorium sitting the next day. we want a flexibility to accommodate the range of activities that communities want to take on. it's no longer just we're the third space in between work and home. we're also a third space between what you want us to do yesterday and what you want to do tomorrow. >> are you all like the most responsive arm of government on some level? >> absolutely. i just have to say that -- >> that was a -- >> people love the fire department but you don't want them to come because you'd then you have a fire, blah, blah, blah. i think that libraries are so beloved and respected by their communities and one of the challenges is that sometimes folks don't understand, well in a way it's good if we're seen as not part of government because sometimes that's not that positive. on the other hand, people generally don't have a very clear understanding in particular of how public libraries are funded. they just see it on the corner, they expect it to be there it's going to be there and they're funded in different ways and it's complicated and that can be difficult, but i really do think that in terms of the ability to help our communities and also be a gateway to other government functions that people have a hard time understanding the library is the place that will do that. >> i want to get to reading for a second. i found myself -- i'm a very late adopter to all things, so i have young employees they teach me how to use computers. the other day i was reading this book on genocide and i found myself reading it on my phone and it seemed a bit wrong. there's a kindle app on my phone but i was away from my kindle i was waiting for my wife. there was something -- it's great. i could still read but there was something -- i don't know slightly disrespectful, slightly unfulfilling, slightly -- it wasn't sort of relaxing sensual experience of a nice leather chair that i never actually bought. it seemed like a slightly diminished reading experience. is there something to that or should i skip the hell over it? >> no, i think there is something to that. i mean i'm not a digital native so there's a lot about that that is sometimes not comfortable for me but sometimes it's more convenient. when we ask our students would you rather have print books or ebooks and we would rather have print books because they help us learn better and we have extensive -- >> why? >> why? because they can focus. sometimes students have many devices on at the same time and many apps open and that's a distracti distraction. but there's nothing about the book except you and the book. >> is there any research to that effect? >> i am citing a research study that one of our librarians did with our students last year. >> when i read book on kindle i often don't know who the title is or the author is. who was it? i don't know. because you're not picking it up and looking at it. >> we can argue lots of different things. i -- the common enemy is not reading, i think. that's the thing i'm more concerned. >> am i really reading in a serious way? >> it's not either/or. >> should i stop judging myself? >> yeah, stop judging. >> so it was productive in some way that you were reading -- >> i'm starting to think librarians are saints. >> when you think about that, we're in such a busy culture and say you're reading a particular book, we'll call it a book, but it's really -- the format can be a variety of things. so your home reading, you want to have a nice experience in your leather chair but then you want that book on the plane with you so you're going to use your kindle, then you're taking a trip so you want to still read the book or hear the book and you want it in an audio book. i feel we're often too focused on the format and libraries have adapted to a wide variety of formats over the years and it's really all about getting you the reading content is what we want to do. >> how is this tension between digital and print and other media playing out within libraries with visa vie design how do you space one purpose over another. >> a lot of what we're doing right now is finding ways to store the printed books or to collaborate within regions so that we all collectively have a storage facility where they're always available, but that frees up space -- >> fewer stacks will be available on site. >> yes, yes, yes, yes. >> you made a choice? >> yes, that's a choice. >> so if i want a printed book in a library in 20 years it's going to take you a day or two to get it from the warehouse. >> or maybe this afternoon. >> i don't want to come back. >> yeah, so in 20 years we'll probably have a way to get it to you so you don't have to come to the physical library. >> we're going to use drones to do it then. >> there you go. we'll be all set. >> everyone else is. >> some people say there's something loss because you can't browse it on the shelf or can't touch it. there's no library big enough to hold it all any way. >> one of the beauties of libraries, one of the beauties of book stores, you go in thinking you're going to buy a book on cats but you come out with a book on birds. that's the beauty of the library and that's going to go away. so basically we're going to -- >> no. >> it's going to be this self-subskrieging to send you only subject on sports. >> i didn't say it was going to go away. i said it would take a smaller footprint. >> it's not going to go away. >> if the stacks are not present and run -- disappears. >> they're not disappearing. there will be collections of materials. it's fascinating that when you talk to people who use public libraries they will often say i really love the book mobile because the collection is one that i can just manage or i like a small branch and i'm not saying that they don't want a large variety. we will have collections but the browsing experience is really about having some material to choose from. you don't need to have miles and miles of stacks because that won't give you that nice browsing experience. we're not going to let that go because we care about that and people still care about it. we know that ebook reading is leveling off. we knew it would and it is and people still want to read books and browse. again, not either/or, both and. >> so what does this leveling off mean? >> they're not a fad. >> they're just not going to take over. >> it's one container that can be replaced by another container. >> it's not zero sum. >> no. it's not either/or, it's both. >> this morning looking at facebook, something popped up that said i showed them earlier, destroy the myth that libraries are no longer relevant if you use your library, please share. is it really that dire? so there is something going on that's why we did this panel tonight. is there any threat to libraries? why would a librarian put this on facebook? >> passionate people, but. >> we started talking about the library, the library has a fundamental brand which is books. it works to our positive and negative. people start to say, well, we don't need these warehouses of books because everything's online and that we're starting to see that because as we just discussed the stacks. but the fact is that information is changing at a rapid rate and libraries and certainly library professionals better equip people to navigate the complexity of that information. so even though it would be very -- yes, we can get rid of a store house full of books but we should not get rid of the space that allows us to do lots of different things with lots of different formats of information. that's fundamentally to our economy and our democracy to learning, everything. >> assuming there's no threat at all to libraries and the willingness to fund them by the public, we're all good? >> ifibraries are simplified. sorry to speak over you. >> that's okay. i think. >> why are we having this vent? >> i think it's a very good question because as i mentioned earlier on, i think the complexity of library funding is something that the public doesn't easily understand. when our elected officials have to make choices, we want to make sure that they're informed and make good choices. it's hard. it's difficult. i think, you know, i really do think that library funding particularly at the local level and all of our public libraries at least are funded probably 90% locally it's what we're doing to help our communities make a difference and we can make that argument at the local level and retain good funding. >> how is public surveys showing public support for libraries? is it constant? steady over time? >> it has -- i think it's been steady -- no. we had a difficult time in the recession but everybody had a difficult time and we have come back to more stable funding since the recession. i also think that in many public libraries around the country as well as other types of libraries too, local funding, both private, friends groups, foundations, libraries have really begun to be more engaged in fund-raising, private fund-raising to help augustment public funding but we have really achieved a steady state after the recession. i think that was hard for everybody. >> susan parker, is there not -- do you deny there's some sort of worry out there in society that libraries may not have the purpose that they once had in the digital age? >> i think that there's a trope that people find easy to put in a tweet. >> has anybody ever said that to you. >> well, yes. the guy who checks me out at the same drugstore that i use all the time, asked me once, what i did for a living, i said i was a librarian and he said, i'm so sorry. [ laughter ] >> and i'm thinking -- why you say that? because you're not going to have a job soon. and i thought for a minute, well, okay. maybe you'd think you don't need a library but the fact is that if you are fortunate enough to be able to buy you are fortunate enough to read the book you want to read today on amazon and have it shipped to your home and if you are fortunate to own your own computer and subscribe to wireless internet in your home, then maybe libraries are less obvious to you. if you are employed and don't have to try to seek reemployment, maybe you don't think you need libraries. these are things that people don't necessarily associate with libraries, because librarians are not the best pr agents for themselves. >> you guys are pretty good. is there a sense out there that libraries may become obsolete? >> i think an idea of what libraries do, it's easy to dismiss that idea. when you hear the wide range of things that happen in a high school library and academic library and public library, you become more aware how vital they are to the economy. >> you're not prepared to convince the public on a bond measure? >> absolutely. >> it's interesting that a gentleman who started a wonderful organization called the digital public library of america talks about the view. it's not what we do, but how do we create a new understanding of the amazing enriching impactful roles we play as opposed to a book warehouse or somebody standing there with a bun. we have that bun thing going on. we have to get rid of that. >> i like that, but again in the digital age, it seems it's driven by moments and feeling. i don't have a feeling with my kindle. there's not a lot of warmth in a digital age. i wonder if you have a tough time making cozy moments. how are you going to do it with fewer books. >> by making a comfortable space that people want to be in. the leather chair you never bought -- >> it's a fantasy. >> what if we had one in a cozy space in a library? you might enjoy that. libraries are creating different environments and ecosystems within the library. today you might want to do one thing and later today you might want to do another thing. there's a time when you want to be alone and study and be quiet and maybe another time you want to meet with somebody and have a conversation. we decided to put the cafe at the library. >> you have sushi. >> yes. our idea is make it a place where people want to be and then that will -- that does build on itself. new library buildings, whether they're public or academic libraries or libraries in school are definitely building these kinds of spaces that facilitate the different things that you do in your day or the different kind of things you want to accomplish. what do you want to create or share and i think that that is really the new genius of libraries is really looking at that space for what it is. i was looking at -- i was in a new public library. it's a tremendous offering of optimism, i would say, if nothing else. civic optimism about the community and all of the things and all of the people that they want to welcome into that space for the different environments that they provide. >> any thoughts on design? >> i want to go back to the new nostalgia. i thought about it and one of the observations book authors have very fond thoughts of libraries and librarians in particular. part of it is because they've used that space to create something new. one of the things that's starting to happen with information and new technologies and resources, i see it in my own city of chicago public library, young people go to the new media center where they use information resources to produce something new, a video, whatever it may be. they 3-d print something and they walk out with that sense of nostalgia because it's about creation at that library. that process of creation is going to replace that textural thing that we've thought of and we'll have memories of that's the place where i became a creator. >> i can't crack these guys. they're good. that was fantastic. yeah. you have a smarty pants answer here? >> i second that. >> susan, what does a library look like in 2100, assuming we're still here, we being the united states? >> we'll be here. it looks like a welcoming space for all ages. >> come on. specifically what does it look like? you go in and is there sushi. give me a sense of the use of space and the future. >> as we said -- okay. you'll have an area over here where kids are creating and an area over here where people are doing all kinds of things together. you will have materials and some electronic materials and moveable flexibility. >> do libraries need to be larger in the future? >> that's an interesting question. when you think about the infrastructure in this country of libraries, it is unbelievable. we have a huge infrastructure. it's an asset that all of our communities have. i don't know they have to necessarily get larger. that depends on the community, but they have to be more flexible. we need to have some kind of a cafe. people love them. we need a gift shop to make some extra revenue. >> now we're talking. >> welcoming. >> gift shop. >> can you drink coffee at libraries? >> yeah. it depends on the policy. most of them, yeah. if you put a top on it. that's the important thing. >> we don't even care about that anymore. >> back in the day there was a prohibition against it. >> this was a culture change for librarians as much as anyone else. >> you guys have made librarians appear to be nimble. talk [ bleep ] about somebody. >> no, we're not going to do that and i'm going to take this opportunity to say we can celebrate the fact that we have an actual real live librarian as the librarian of congress. carla haden. first african-american, first woman real librarialibrarian. we are an awesome bunch. >> we heard earlier that there's -- is there a threat of losing librarians to new media, to silicon valley, are you considering an offer right now to sell out? >> no, not me. i'm sure younger ones. i think the skills we have in libraries are marketable skills for all kinds of places. a lot of folks that cam oome ou the university of washington, but one of the challenges is they could make more money in the private sector. >> how is enrollment for library sciences degrees? >> i think it was lagging for a while. i think that now that silicon valley has discovered the information expertise is perhaps the most valuable commodity. >> getting a master's might be helpful. >> yes. >> we're starting to see a broadening to the information professions. it's a study of information rather than the specificity of the library. there are master's in library sciences, but also in information. there are people that bring outside skills and blend them into the functions of a library. unfortunately we went through an economic downturn like the rest of everyone. we're starting to see some come back, but it's a slow process. >> do libraries have a future, all of you seem quite optimistic. >> we've been around for a long time. >> yes. >> that's true. >> we're going to stay. >> and it's just about -- correct me if i'm wrong, it's about being responsible to the public. dig digital, technological changes your responsive to, social needs, design will shift, format will shift. you will get rid of stacks one day. >> not all of them. >> i guess there's really no reason to worry about libraries? >> there is a reason to worry about libraries. >> thank you. >> one, community involvement. we can't exist by ourselves. we want people to worry with us. >> you're not doing a good job of making us worry. >> it would be helpful to the process. >> it's a crisis. we are nothing without all of you. >> that's it. >> that's a wonderful way to think about it because it's a dynamic. we don't just stand around on our own. we are of the public. >> last question, because i think you've answered all of the questions i had, is the bun on the back of the head on the librarian, you guys are really savvy. you are good and responsive. what is the public's -- is the public's perception broadly of librarians accurate because you deal with difficult humans, myself included, all the time? >> i'll go back to this nostalgia saying i don't think the perception is accurate. >> what's the perception? >> the perception that, well, we're very quiet, we're unassuming. we just want to shput the books away, that kind of thing. people who are engaged in their communities, for us to be actively engaged in our communities, we have to be out there getting to know people. we do that all the time and to be effective and maintain and increase our critical funding, we must be extremely strategic and political. and i think most of the librarians that i know know their communities and know where they need to be and they are seen as key players in that community. that's where we want to be, where we need to be. >> i'd ask you to respond to that, but unless you have any words we're going to end on -- that was a brilliant note. wonderful panel. wonderful, fun, brilliant. thank you so much for coming. [ applause ] >> perhaps they've been grilled enough, but now it's time to take questions from all of you. there are two of us going around with microphones. please raise your hand and say your name before the question. this is being recorded by us so it will be on publicsquare.org first thing tomorrow morning. you can share it with frepiends family, students, et cetera. cspan is here and that will be nationally broadcast, but also up on their website at some point as i said after the election. lewis has the first question. >> i'm a published author and have done research in lots of private libraries, as well as university research libraries. i have a great nostalgia for the stacks going back to my undergraduate days at a small college in new england. my question is regarding the stacks and the socialability of the space. when i went back to the ucla library after an absence of about a decade, i was shocked -- of course i was shocked that no card catalogue still exists, i'm a dinosaur, but also i saw the cafe and the students in these weird little space age hives. when i would go upstairs into the stacks, roaming and hopefully finding something by accident since most of my research has led to accidental discoveries, i don't find anyone up there anymore. so my question for you as the librarian of a university research library, is what's happening socially to student life if students are not interacting in those stacks? >> well, the research library is one of ten libraries at ucla and most of the time the undergraduates prefer to be in the undergraduate library, which is the powell library. the other thing you're talking about is the amount of funds that it takes to r library space to make it less than 50 years old looking is a lot and so our money ran out on the second floor. so there's three additional floors that we would love to renovate. if we renovate it so there's enough wi-fi access and enough power and the right kind of futu furniture where people can work compab comfortab comfortably, it will be there. about an hour from now there will be more people up there. it's also a time of day thing. there's no question, when you think about some of the -- i think soabout some of the libraries that i used as a student and i would rather not see that again. it's a slow process unfortunately. >> next question on your left. >> my name is brandon barny and i have two questions. i read that benjamin franklin began the first library and if the second question is if the library were burning, which book would you bring out of it? >> wow. the free library of philadelphia was the first -- there will be discussions about this, because i think boston has that claim too. >> yeah, boston also claims it. >> i'm sure benjamin franlklin was doing the right thing. i would probably get out the fine drawer and take that out. >> so much for the image of the burning librarian. >> not for my personal use. >> that was terrible. >> i think most librarians would struggle between their own favorite book and the book they would find the most useful to their community of users. it would be this impossible -- >> it's really impossible. we have a very significant and special collection of a library that when you ask that question, i just started to freak out and i probably won't be able to sleep tonight. if i have to go sleep there so i'll be able to get as many things out as possible. it's like your children. >> next question is on your right. >> i'm not sure i have a question. i wanted to say thank you. first of all, i came tonight thinking, wow, what is going to happen to banks and libraries and things like that, but the truth is i'm a public school teacher and i can't tell you how many times a week i have to tell my students you can go print that at the library. you can type that up at the library and they don't have these resources at home. we're talking about kids k-12. i teach high school. i want to say thank you for making a place -- i don't know what i'd say to these kids if they're like i don't have a printer or computer at home. that's a really important thing. i don't know what we'd do if we didn't have that. i don't know where i'd tell them to go. thank you. i don't know if you have any comments on that. >> i have one comment. that's a great comment. we didn't really talk much this evening about the role that libraries play in providing access to the internet and other resources. i think so many of us here have our mobile devices and we have wireless at home and everything at home we don't even think about it. there's still 20% if not more of various populations that don't have access to the internet. it's a critical role that we do and we also in most of our libraries in california are lucky to have good access to very robust internet so people can do what they need to do and they have that access. it's a critical role we play and one of the reasons we're surviving is that broadband access. >> next question. >> leslie farmer. so i just have a couple of comments. i think of libraries as civic safety nets. so places whereas you say not only do they consume information, but also produce it. so i teach school librarianship. one of the things our students do is having kids create books and of those books they join the library collection so that becomes part of their contribution to the library that continues onwards. also just to mention that in cal state university long beach, which is where i teach, we did renovate so the students are using all six floors. thank you very much. there's tons of stacks, but we also have compact storage and it takes folks five minutes. it won't take a whole afternoon and our starbucks is in the library. so the question i have, because they said make sure there's a question, is what do you think in terms of library education? you're saying those librarians will go into industry. have you considering they're breeding librarianship and they're becoming moles in other areas where there is information in other professions? >> i began teaching graduate library students at the university of washington and they just came for their orientation and one of the things that was absolutely inspirational to me was that most of those kids were there, students were there, because they wanted to make a difference in their community. whatever that community is, be it public, academic, business, the fact that students were coming to make a difference in their community inspired me to try to be a good instructor and mentor for them. >> i think the value of library education continues to be that shared value of our profession. it's where we develop our values for intellectual freedom, diversity and equity of access for civic engagement and we go and apply that in school, public and private libraries and as information expands and becomes more available hopefully will think about the importance of those things as we see other trends moving in very different directions. >> i think it is kind of amusing to some of us who have been around for a long time when google thought they invented data and they discovered searching. they were really excited about it and we're like -- all these geeked out kids studying this stuff a long time ago. i think now that more people -- i never knew what the word metadata was. most people hear have probably heard that word. teaching skills at the graduate level can lead to librarianship and making google even better. >> next question is on your right. >> my name is noah smith. so technology has been changing by leaps and bounds every year, every decade, examples are the digitization of books and the advent of virtual reality. with the changes of technology kept in mind, do you think there's still a strong need for books in the physical form or as the future moves on should libraries see more as safe spaces and community centers? >> i think a lot of us are connected to the physical object still, so i think the printed book form is going to survive. it's also a very convenient format for the distribution of information. so i think that will continue to be important. one of the great things about libraries, we talked about them as a space for providing fundamental technology services, access to the internet or any other things. i think sometimes people forget that libraries are usually the first spaces to introduce new technology into their communities. so 3-d printers have been widely distributed through libraries and we're seeing more libraries distributing virtual reality tools. we balance on the fringe ahead of its adoption by consumers and also traditional values in a book. we can do both. it doesn't have to be either/or. >> next question. >> hi. i just want to thank -- my name is jody. i'm a librarian from san diego county so i drove out for this because my librarian nerd meter is hovering in red right now. thank you for putting this together. my question for you all to address a little bit is fines and how fines address things like that stereotype that most of the public has about libraries and also about how it does impact funding in certain ways. i know in our system it does a little bit. and then finally, what the digitization of our materials, the impact it's going to have on both the public perception as well as our funding. i mean, i don't want to get too specific, but we have a cap that our fines address in our funding budget every year. as long as we continue to do that, we have a fine free day and everything, but a lot of libraries can't do that so i'm wondering what your thoughts are. >> just real quickly in terms of the fines, this is interesting. i'm going to have a discussion with my students about library fines because we know that library fines, fees, whatever, are serving as a barrier for a number of users, particularly youth. we see that particularly when we're working with school districts in trying to create easy, convenient cardi access ad these fines are a barrier. on the other hand parents will say it providers responsibility. as you were talking about your laminated card, it's a responsibility and do we want to take that away from particularly our young people. the monetary implication, depending on your jurisdictional set up, sometimes those fines are going into a general fund. the city might not like that, but that's not loss to you. i think it's not about the monetary loss. it's more about the policy discussion about the fines. but i think this is a hot topic in libraries today. a number of libraries are starting to look at their fine structures and possibly eliminate them. we do want to open up access. i wasn't sure about your question about the digitization and how that related to fines. >> in our system the books will automatically clear off of your tablet after three weeks so there's never fines with digital materials. so that if more digital items are checked out, that will sort of effect the bottom line at the end of the fiscal year, but i understand how those funds can get broken up, but hopefully maybe the public's perception of the need for fines and why that's such a punitive part of their library experiences and how that would help that perhaps. >> you were talking about the laminated card and it sets a responsibility. perhaps you could answer that question. fines might be important to your whole notion of responsibility, right? >> well, my mother -- one of my earliest library memories is losing whe"where the wild thing a are" and my mother losing her mind. one of the great things about these conversations is that it opens a dialogue with other administrators who start to understand that libraries are about access and can restrict that access. these fine discussions are not something that has to happen within the library profession. they're best served by being an open dialogue with voters and decision makers and a number of people and balancing the need for responsibility and the need for community assets that what is owned by the library is owned by the community and we have to have a contract among all of us about the responsibility for that. so it's a complicated discussion. >> it's not just library fines. i think fines in other areas of our communities are also under discussion. we're certainly discussing eliminating fines for our students and faculty as well because it can be a barrier and shining a light on the funding mechanism for libraries, if more people understood that the fines that you collect actually contribute to your bottom line, that's a source of your funding, that's crazy. because then you kind of thing like that might have made sense at one time, but that has to be revisited. so the way that you fund your library is hoping that more people forget where they left the book. that's a reverse kind of logic that doesn't work anymore. so i think it's really important. >> practically speaking, what's the incentive to turn the book back in on time? what would you then use? >> you would get to a point if you didn't return the actual piece of material, you would have a fee or you would be responsible for the cost of the book. >> you would have to pay to replace it. >> yeah, a replacement cost. >> that's worse than a fine. >> you have that anyway. if you don't bring back a piece of material, you have a replacement cost. the fines also can lead to difficult customer service experiences and in fact one of the things that we're doing particularly in public libraries and academic libraries as well, we're trying to empower our staff to be able to not feel like they have to enforce every rule and bring back every nickle, but look at a person's situation and make a determination. that's really important too because it's all about good customer service. i think some of our -- i often hear people with those library stories are about some kind of fine incident that they had and they got in trouble and we'd like to try to erase those memories. >> if you open the news every once in a while, there's a story in giant capitol letters 79-year-old matron on life support is taken to the sheriff's department because she owes library fines. that does happen in some places and that really has to stop. >> next question is on your right. >> hi. jill hoskins here. this is about the quality of our experience when we go to our wonderful public libraries, especially in central downtown areas or poverty areas. you talk about the need to be welcoming to everyone and helping people in a private way. so do you have some ideas how to address those wonderful events that some libraries have like in a classroom let's say where they'll show a wonderful film and there's also the bathroom issue, and then there will be some people that smell very strongly and they have the right to be there, what solutions do you have so that people don't not go to those events because the rules of conduct or the help you can get doesn't address that kind of issue? >> well, you know, it's interesting that you bring that up in the setting about a program because that is challenging. that's very challenging, but that is an issue that we often have to deal with, particularly in urban public libraries, and what my philosophy has been that if an individual -- if another customer or patron comes in is concerned about that, then often we'll counsel the particular individual to get a shower. when you're in a public program, i think that is challenging and seating change, something like that. it's challenging when you're in a group setting. >> this is the next question on your left. >> i'm david kipin. i wonder how worried are you that a lot of the best funded libraries and library systems and most robust friends or organizations tend to concentrate in the neighborhoods that arguably need them least and what can better funded libraries and districts do for libraries often not so far away that aren't quite so lucky? >> so i keep -- one of the things that i keep worrying about is income and equality. it's funny we talk about the growing divide in our population between rich and poor and it becomes interesting that we're starting to see that similar divide in cities and in city services and so we have this sort of divide across things. i don't quite know if there's an easy solution for it. one of the -- in talking with outside advocates for libraries, nonlibrarians who look at our system and our situation and share their little advice, they're hard pressed to understand why as a network of libraries we are not more uniform in the delivery of innovative programs and other types of things. part of it is that funding structure complexity that we are locally governed so each library is unto its own. projects like the digital library of america and other projects that would encourage the sharing of innovations and rapid dissemination from a well funded library to an adaptable met method that could be used in different libraries would advance what we're doing, but we're limited in having that because it's a complex funding and governing situation that we're in. >> libraries have been good at collaborating over time, but they're much more about moving collections around and making those kinds of resources available. there's a lot of work to be done and it's hard work because of that funding structure. if your funding structure is about your primary community, i get asked at ucla why are you paying attention to the students and faculty since you're a public library, i tell them my primary mission is to support them, but we're supporting the public as well. it's not always as simple as it might seem, but we continue to work in that space and be glad to work with any one of you to talk about it more. >> that is actually going to conclude our program. i want to thank the city of west hollywood and congratulations on five years. this program wouldn't have happened without them. so thank you to them. thank you to our panelists for traveling near and far to be here with us tonight. they will continue to be at our reception. everyone is invited. you can ask them further questions. thank you to cspan for recording tonight's event. thanks again for showing up and have a fabulous night. thank you. [ applause ] since the official opening last september the national museum of african-american history and culture has welcomed over 50,000 visitors and sunday cspan takes you inside the museum for a live tour. we will look at the exhibits telling the african-american story from slaivery to the firs african-american president. we'll talk with the curator and our guests will talk to you and hear your input. join us for a live visit inside the national museum of african-american history and culture live sunday beginning at 6:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on cspan-3. watch cspan as president donald trump delivers his first address to a joint congress live tuesday february 28th on cspan and listen live on the free cspan radio app. next, iowa governor terry branstad gives his last state of the state address. he was nominated to be the next u.s. ambassador to china.

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