they are doing so because its surveillance needs require that degree of storage and security. the chief information officers ordered government agencies to move to the cloud, and as a result even civilian agencies are turning to cloud services. >> monday night on "the communicators" on c-span two. joint american history tv for live coverage of ceremonies marking the one 30th -- the 150th anniversary of the surrender at appomattox. generally met senator you -- general u.s. grant and surrendered, effectively ending the civil war. we will be live from appomattox courthouse on both a pool ninth and 12th as historians including edit air's reflect on the last battles and reflect on the legacy of appomattox. will also bring you key moments from 150 years ago and we will open at our phone lines to take phone calls from authors. the surrender at appomattox. live april 9 and 12th on c-span3. up next on american history tv, natalie zanin tells the story of an american-born wife of an english diplomat who became a spy. she utilized her charm, beauty and sex to gain valuable intelligence during the spanish civil war and world war ii. in one mission in washington d.c., she stole seek real -- secret naval codes in the nude. from the international spy museum, this is about an hour. >> the executive director of the spy museum and i am delighted to have you here for what will be an interesting program. it happened in most of our lifetimes. and i think it will resonate quite a bit. our speaker this morning is natalie zanin. we have worked with her at the museum before. she is a rider, director producer of educational tools in washington. she does those are and children's programs and she has codeveloped these spy museum city tour of the city, which we are doing in partnership with great line and is now on demand. folks who are interested, that can certainly be booked. she is featured in a number of publications -- the post, the times. she has been on the history channel, canadian television, a number of others. she is and has been advocating for inclusive theater. and she has been working a longtime on this particular case. so natalie, we are very glad to have you here. please join me in welcoming natalie zanin. [applause] natalie: that was a wonderful introduction. thank you, peter. good morning, good morning. yes, i am natalie zanin. i'm going to be talking to you about cynthia. or codename sent you. this is a very interesting woman. she lived a very exciting woman. the ring research, i kept seeing it in terms of a screenplay, so i started riding one. how do you build a spy. -- how do you hold a spy? how do you create a spy? if you were to go into a liberatory -- a laboratory and put it into a machine to contact -- concoct a spy, you could not do much better than cynthia. all of the omens are there. she was born amy elizabeth thorpe in minneapolis, minnesota. she said she was of irish -scandinavian heritage on her father's side and mixed french-canadian and bavarian on her mother's side. as a child, amy had a relative named on amy -- aunt amy who lived with the family. to avoid confusion the family started calling her elizabeth and then betty. she liked betty. her father was george cyrus thorpe. he was a captain in the marines distinction. her mother was cora wells thorpe the daughter of senator harry wells. she was an educated woman. and she did not mix well with the rest of minneapolis society which she may have sometimes felt she was above them. she studied at columbia and the sorbonne and the university of munich. she was often referred to by little betty as cold and aloof. in fact, it was difficult for laura to display affection to her family. when i picture her now, i picture a cross between margaret dumont from the marx brothers films -- a little less friendly, perhaps. [laughter] it is 1910. george is stationed in maine. he is commanding the naval base and portsmouth. amy has a brother george born in 1914. betty's child it is interesting. she liked being outside. she liked to run through the maine woods. she says she often felt as though she was built around aloneness. but that was most comfortable for her. she would hide among the pine trees in the mainwe woods. she would hear the water nearby. and she would stay there for hours and hours. sometimes all day into the evening. the family in the beginning got worried and would look for her and then after a while they alerted the local police. the police officers knew the woods, they knew where the child would hide, so they would go out and find her, bring her back to the family in the evening. she would spend her days in the woods. that did not seem to bother cora. it was a different time. betty never had a best friend. never really confided in anybody. her father was often away. and there she was with cora and her siblings. cora again, unable to hug the children or tell them that she loved them. did not seem comfortable at all with the children. betty sought escape. now in 1914, betty and her siblings stayed with cora in rhode island. george was posted at the navy war college in annapolis and later brown university. in the 1960's, washington, d.c.. washington, d.c. was a social world for the thorpe family. the children liked it a lot. george is posted to cuba. as she is making preparations to follow him to cuba, she arrives to find he has been shipped to south america. wonderful. this does not sit well with her. picture margaret dumont now. she decides to stay in cuba where she stays until 1919. george in south america. that worked well. eventually she takes the children to florida. they returned to washington, d.c. betty begins keeping a diary of her day-to-day activities. went to the library of congress. it is all marble and paintings. george and cora moved and powerful social circles in washington. there was a lovely party given by vice president coolidge and his wife. betty observed interacting with the social set here. she observes that good manners are actually rather useful to hide behind. this is a skill that will serve her later in life. betty now seeks to feel excitement. she is bored. any kind of excitement. even fear. she wrote, i remember when we were very young, i always meant past the finish line and ran and ran and ran until i dropped half strangled when my endurance ran out. i just could not stop before that. my brother george would say, you are crazy. you are crazy, he would shout. why don't you stop? but betty could not stop. that was 1921. george is posted to a why he. he is in command of the marines there. the thorpes begin to write magazine articles while in hawaii. corey -- coro writes a book of stories about pacific island full details that is rather well-received. betty watches and decides to start righting herself. she begins with an article about her family background. she calls it "days bygone." it's not really a family history though. when you look at it, it is really about a ball that george attended. but she is only nine or 10 at this point. and then she decides to write a more detailed story. the story is quite good. george hires an illustrator and he has it printed. it is a beautiful tale of a girl living on the streets of naples with her blind father. poor theoretta. when her father becomes ill, she sings in the streets to earn bread. her lovely voice is overheard and she is made a famous soprano. it is a great little story. this slide you see is a photo of betty taken to illustrate theoretta. "the sun had not yet cast its sunset robe over naples but it was sinking fast behind that ancient piece of beauty which nature had so thoughtfully bestowed upon the earth." it is great stuff for an 11-year-old. it is good. betty is already becoming a beautiful girl. the book, which is printed only for family and friends, finds its way to washington. in 1923, betty's family comes to washington. george is retired. they are making a grand tour of europe and when they tour, betty studies french at the institution above lake geneva. betty is bored at school. she chafes at the routine. she gets into several dustups with the principals over her rebelliousness. she is said to be a bad influence on the other students. her french was flawless. points to her for that. she spent the next few years at private schools. she preferred solitude. she had a careless disregard for conventions and rules and is asked to leave one of the schools. she is a blonde and beautiful girl. she is coming into her looks now. she writes in her diary "my looks are better than i had hoped. god was kind in that, at least." i have to agree. i think she is stunning. the thorpes are summering in rhode island. they attend parties and a host parties at their summer home. it is at one of these google gatherings that betty meets a handsome young man of 21. his family is out of the social register. she will never name and in her diaries. i cannot give you his name for i do not know it and i have looked. she is smitten by this young man. she wrote, "i imagine myself in love with him. we were both lonely and met only twice before the love affair was over." she was only 14. she claimed she was a seduced but she also wrote, "life is but a stage upon which to play. one's role is to pretend and always hide one's true feelings." now she has a secret she cannot even share with her diary. what does a spy do? hold secrets, pass them on to their handlers. keep up a false front, never reveal your true feelings. mission comes above yourself. this is a good training ground for her. the family returns to washington from the summer home. george establishes a firm specializing in maritime cases. betty becomes well-known. not only is she stunning but she is a charming girl. she has learned how to flirt. girl from naples has been read by diplomats and the italian embassy. they adore her. they make a fuss over her. an italian man is especially intrigued and calls her his golden girl. they may have been only fronts. -- only friends. i cannot find if they were lovers. but she revels in the attention from this charming italian. one day, she is sunning beside a pool in washington. she catches the eye of arthur pack. he apparently never got over that first glance. he was a commercial secretary at the embassy. she also flirts with a handsome spaniard at a country club. just a moment as they gaze at each other while watching a tennis match. it sparks something in betty. as he left the club, the spaniard bowed dramatically. as we know, sometimes that is all it takes. gentlemen, take note. she begins to write in her diary that this young man, this mysterious spaniard, is her true love. all of the restlessness she felt before she pours into feelings for this man she has really only spoken with once. and barely spoken with at that. it is interesting. she is going to be presented to society. this is an important part. she estimates a good presentation. the year is 1929. she will be primed. by thorpe standards, this meant the right kind of husband. betty has an affair with a man she does not name in her diary over the christmas holiday in 1929. then, she goes to tea at her parents home. she meets arthur pack again. he remembers that first glance he had ever at the swimming pool. she writes in her diary -- and i wonder if this was written to arthur or the affair she had with the unnamed man. she writes, "i think i cannot understand the depth of wanting unfulfilled desire and hating you to touch my hand when embers die where once there was a fire." now there is a party where arthur and betty are houseguests in 1929. he walks into his room late at night, tired, just wants to sleep. he turns on the light and finds betty in his bed, naked. he told his friend he was surprised to find her there. [laughter] i'll bet he was. they were married april 29 1930. this was a good marriage by cora's standards. he is from the british embassy in and outstanding. at the wedding, betty was four months pregnant. was this arthur's or the child of the unnamed man she had the affair with? when arthur finds out that she is pregnant and she kept it from him as long as she could, he is furious. a man whose young wife is pregnant at the wedding could derail his career. like something out of downton abbey, arthur insists betty try to lose the child. she wrote later that arthur insisted she ride on horseback very fast and jump off of stairs, run until she was exhausted. i find this a bit in congress -- i find this a bit incongruous with betty's nature, however. i think this might be her looking back. betty was a very strong person and i cannot imagine her attempt to lose a child. when she sees her doctor, he says ,"you will lose your child or die. you must take care of yourself." that is the end of it. she goes forward, has the baby. arthur insists no announcement will be made of little anthony george's birth. in fact, they will not raise the child. a family will be found. they place a notice. a family is found. arthur will not speak of the child. he will not visit the child. betty is heartsick over this. he insists this is the way it'll be. she makes visits to see the child. she tries to observe him from a distance. she later visits the family. i'm not sure what little tony thought of her as he was growing up, this beautiful woman who came and played with him sometimes, brought him gifts. arthur takes no interest at all. at one point, the little boy wants to have a toy gun. betty tells arthur this that she will send him a toy gun. this is the only time arthur speaks about the child. "no. absolutely not." betty writes to the child and says sorry, she cannot send him the gift he wants. now, she has another secret to keep. she is becoming an expert at keeping secrets. no one knows the inner turmoil over her heartbreaking loss of the beautiful little boy. arthur is now transferred to chile. betty embraces the tropics. she traveled there with her family when she was younger. she is grieving over the loss of little tony. she can throw herself into the social world. she is so angry with arthur. this is a secret she has to keep deep within herself. she is so angry with him over the loss of her child that she decides anything goes at this point. what can he possibly due to her at this point? she learns to play polo, speak spanish, she meets a handsome chilean named alfredo. they have an affair. it does not last long. she is out with friends and sees alfredo with a woman. later, she confronts him. "oh, this is my official mistress. oops." "your official mistress? all right, we are done." she is done with him. he has an official mistress? no, no. she feels betrayed by him. she threw herself so much into the affair. you see in her writings that she really is pouring out her love for the little boy. it is at this point she becomes pregnant by arthur. a little girl named denise in 1934. she loves denise. she is swept up in the political turmoil. a right-wing, catholic government is in power. the country is heading towards national revolution. betty feels unleashed. she feels the freedom to do what she pleases. she is officially mrs. arthur j pack. this is her photo from the presentation to the queen. she is dolled up to be presented. she is at a club one day in spain and sees a face she recognizes. he is a handsome spaniard. he is the same handsome spaniard from her childhood that she met so many years ago at that tennis match in washington. she calls him antonio in her diaries, but in fact, he is senor carlos. they run into each other while she is with arthur. this is the man she loved for years and is now meeting him officially with her husband. she jokes in front of arthur "this is someone i had a crush on when i was younger." carlos responds, "we were terribly young and i'm sure you have forgotten about me." but, she has not. they begin an affair. carlos is married. arthur is busy with work. at this point, betty does something rather interesting. she decides to become a catholic. she says it is to please arthur. carlos is catholic so i have a feeling that might have pushed her in that direction. the embassy counselor encourages her to seek the counsel of a young priest to further her studies. the priest and betty meet. they have appropriate meetings. they converse daily about catholicism. it is during this point that betty and the counselor have to take an elevator to a meeting. he asks how her studies are going. she says it is going well. then, the elevator stops. there were frequent strikes in spain. one day, she tried to light a cigarette. the match would not strike and she turned to her friend and said, "this is the only thing that won't strike in spain." he says, "i will use that in my newspaper." she and sir george are in the lift and it is stuck between floors. these are the days when there was no telephone in an elevator, of course. hours and hours go by. after a while, arthur notices betty has not come home. he goes to the place he knows the meeting will take place, sees the elevator is stuck arranges to have someone open the top of the elevator. sir george is not able to make the climb and spent the rest of the night in the elevator. betty goes on to meet with her young priest again. she notes he is handsome. one day, he request that she meet him in another part of town. this is not suspicious to betty because priests are in great danger in spain at this time. they are arrested. -- priests have been arrested. it is understandable he is looking for what she thinks is a safer place to meet. she arrives and realizes it is a part of town where people meet for secret lovers meetings and now she is a bit suspicious. she climbs the stairs to the room. when she arrives to the apartment, he is out of habit. he is really out of habit. [laughter] but betty falls into old habits. he confesses he has fallen in love with her. they fall into bed but it is a mild affair. she is still in love with carlos. she does not have an issue continuing an affair with the priest with the affair with carlos. the priest will leave the priesthood and wants to marry her. this is more complicated then she would wish. "you should stay a priest. i cannot leave my husband." any excuse she can use. the priest does not care. he is arrested. she does what she can to have him released from prison. she feels badly. this is a good out for betty because she encourages him to leave the area, leave spain for his own safety. now she is done with this entanglement. war is eminent in spain. carlos, her lover, his wife comes to see betty one day. carlos has been arrested. he is in prison, they don't know where. his wife is hysterical, can't betty help her? i don't think his wife knew at this point that she was having an affair with carlos. betty does try to find him through her efforts. she is accused of espionage through these efforts by the generals military headquarters. she is not a spy at this point but this is the first time she is accused of espionage. she meets a man at the chancery in valencia. he is a very charming british man. he is very sympathetic to betty's plea to find carlos. she uses her charm on him. it works. they had a great encounter. betty was surprised by this encounter. she went to meet john and she thought they would discuss finding carlos. he suddenly grabbed her, threw her on the bed, and they made love. betty was surprised but, you know -- [laughter] apparently, fine. he tells her he is madly in love with her. he does not care about his career. he wants only to be with betty. she has to work hard to convince him this affair is a mistake. he is in love with her. she goes to see arthur. he admits to her that he has had an affair. wife of a junior colleague. he wants to marry this woman he calls maude. i could not find out her real name. no one noted it. now, it is 1937. arthur is being posted to war. john tried to follow betty and was told he could not under any circumstances by the british embassy -- arthur was furious when he found out that john meant to be with betty forever. arthur is strained, stressed. he is madly in love with maude. the stress over the affair, his marriage with betty unraveling he collapses. he continues working and collapses again. betty decides to wholeheartedly nurse him back to health. she cannot leave him now. she will make sure he gets well. she sends him to england to recover and she returns. she refers to herself as a grass widow. she meets a young polish diplomat. they have an affair. [laughter] i know. they also discussed the german occupation of austria. they would drive to the banks of the river, sunbathe naked, make love alfresco, and discuss. [laughter] this is true. edward tells betty many things. "i love you, my darling. hitler intends to invade czechoslovakia." during the golf game, she tells jack what edward has told her about hitler's plans. i don't think she told him about the alfresco lunches on the banks of the river but she says, i heard this. jack says, he is assisted with the secret intelligence service. this news will be helpful to them. by march, 1938, she is actively gathering information. they encourage her to use her romance with edward to get more information. london instructs jack shelley to recruit her formally as an agent. they believe her charm will work well. she meets the colonel general in poland. soon, he is chatting freely about contacts in berlin and his daily, secret communications with the polish foreign office. ah, betty. she is practically the only agent in poland providing intelligence. she notes it is easy to make highly trained her fashionably closed-mouthed patriots give away secrets in bed. she has the magnetism. she is producing information. she gives details on the polish crypto-analysis unit. she leaves for england and finds arthur recovered. he is going to chile. she wants to go back to poland. she writes that she is in love with michael. she wants to be with him. in fact, not only that, she wants to continue working for sis. she loved doing this kind of work. it brings back the feeling she had a childhood of running until she was exhausted. she cannot go back to warsaw. her affair has made her a person of discussion there. she cannot return. she goes to chile with arthur. she wants to go back to sis. she decides she is kind of done with being a wife and mother. she leaves arthur and denise. she visits her mother in washington and learns a mr. howard is attempting to reach her. she meets with this man in new york city. he calls himself john howard. mr. howard is a frequent alias in sis. when she meets with him in new york, he tells her she can be useful for them. he suggested she take a house or apartment in washington. he gives her a codename that will come directly from william stephenson, british secret intelligence. "cynthia." she likes it. it suits her. he said she wanted to go to washington and rent a house. i think he preferred it would be an apartment, but a house is fine. a secluded street, not a lot of traffic. this house will be useful to betty. she is requested by mr. howard to contact alberto. she hears this name and says, i have known him since i was a child. he called me his golden girl. he is now the italian naval atache. betty calls them at the embassy. she says, it is your golden girl, alberto. he says, oh, i cannot talk to you now. later, she gets a call at the house. he says, yes i would like to see you, i do remember you. he comes to the house. they have an affair. the affair consists mainly of them drinking fine, red wine talking. betty undressing. alberto lying next to her. the talk is what he mainly desires. betty responds. cynthia is a good listener. now she knows this is what he needs, just to talk. he needs to talk to a sympathetic, beautiful woman. that is fine with her. she asks him for something special. "can you get something for me?" i'm sure he is thinking, diamonds, chocolates, flowers. "no, i would like the italian naval ciphers." "no, no. i cannot get those for you." "if you really think of me as her golden girl..." he gives her the name of a man. he is in love with her. she contacts the man and arranges for him to be paid for the naval codebooks to be copied and returned. at this point, she notices men sitting in a car outside the little house in georgetown. someone is watching her. someone notices that foreign visitors are coming to the house. i am sure they can imagine what is going on inside. at one point, alberto says that the italians plan to scuttle their ships in harbors in the u.s. and blow them up. betty passes this information on and some of these plans are thwarted. the fbi will be an issue for betty. hoover writes " it is believed a discreet inquiry of miss pack may produce viable information." betty is asked to penetrate an embassy in washington and obtained the cipher codes. they will rely on her to use her usual methods. betty has come up with a cover. she is going to pose as a freelance writer, contact the embassy. she looks at the embassy directory, picks out a name, a captain. she calls, asks to speak with him, gets a lower ranked person who says "no." he does not grant interviews. she says, i want to interview him, i'm a journalist. "no. you will not speak to bruce. he cannot arrange anything like that." this is perfect for betty. she waits an hour and calls again. this time, she gets the captain on the phone. she does a little flirting with him and says, i would like to interview you but i understand that is not something you are able to do. he says, of course i can. absolutely. she gets the interview, has a two-hour interview. she meets. she chose her outfit very carefully. she wore a green dress to match her eyes. she used all of her flirting skills. interestingly, she seems more interested in the adache than the ambassador. she receives roses at her georgetown home. not only roses, but he shows up the next afternoon. as he walks into her home, he swoops her in his arms and carries her upstairs. she protests mildly. "oh, what are you doing?" they make love in her bedroom and she becomes his mistress. there is an anti-british sentiment among the french and she knows that will not be effective if she lets on. the captain started working at the embassy in 1940 but served in the french air force in world war i, worked with the anglo-french intelligence in world war ii. he had a newspaper stirring in france before she came to the embassy. what is happening now, it is officially the french estate. it is based in a small city in france but paris remains the official capital. the city only controls the unoccupied zone in southern france. germany now occupies northern france and the regime posts this regime to washington. first, the u.s. was not sure if they should recognize this regime. but, they do. it is a good working relationship. he doesn't know she works british intelligence. eventually, she tells him she is helping the americans. that sort of appeals to him. there is a problem now. remember, the fbi is watching her. they could unravel everything. what if they came to the house? they do. one day, when she was making love to alberto, the fbi knocked on the door. -- they are now -- they are now in a house on wyoming avenue. it is a good working relationship. he doesn't know she works british intelligence. eventually, she tells him she is helping the americans. that sort of appeals to him. there is a problem now. remember, the fbi is watching her. they could unravel everything. what if they came to the house? they do. one day, when she was making love to alberto, the fbi knocked on the door. she had to let him out and upstairs window. he climbed onto the garage roof. he is hanging onto the roof and drops to the ground. betty is worried about this happening again. she does not want this to happen to the captain. she will make a move. a more discreet location. a hotel on connecticut avenue. this is perfec it would have been better if she had started here because it has multiple entrances. they are meeting at the hotel, making love. "i must have the naval ciphers." "i am not able to get into the code room." "please!" "ok." a plan is set a foot. her contact is mr. huntington. it is not just going to be betty and the captain who will go into the french embassy to get the naval codes. a gentleman called the georgia cracker will assist them. i love that name. he is a canadian, actually. i am not sure how close he ever got to geo he will open a safe, remove the codebooks. they will take them to a room they have set up at the hotel. betty was at the hotel one day and knock on the door. "exterminator." she thinks it is the ei. a man says he is here to check -- "box." he goes over the room with a fine tooth comb. they set up a safe room in another apartment. this is where the codebooks will be opened, photographed, and dusted for fingerprints. then, returned to the embassy. this is the plan. the problem is at the embassy, there is a nightwatchman with a large guard dog. the captain, betty's appeal to his strong, french sentiments -- "you will help france." he says he will work late and his girlfriend will join him. he tells the security guard, "can you look the other way? i am married and this is my girlfriend and this is the only place we can meet." the guard accepts that. for a few weeks, the captain and his girlfriend spend time on a sofa in his office. they keep up the fiction they are having this affair at the office. but, it works. the guard is used to them. cynthia is worried about the guard dog but she feels all right. it is the date of the break in. cynthia and the captain arrive at the embassy. the oss safe man is going to be let in through a window. they go in, see the guard, everything is usual. she gives the guard champagne. there is a drug in the champagne. she refers to it as something sleepy but later she said she knew it was nebutol. she puts some in the dogs water dish. the dog was ok. now, the drug is taking effect. they are still on the couch. everybody is falling asleep, the dog, the guard. they go to the window, leapt the georgia cracker in. he is working on the safe. this is a really ancient safe. these locks are not tumbling like they should. he finally gets it open but it is around 4:00 a.m. there is no time to remove the books, photographed them, and get them back in the safe. they will have to go in again. could cynthia learn to crack a safe? yes. yes, she could. the georgia cracker works with her. he cannot go back the second time. they go back the second time. betty tries to get the safe open and cannot. she has been at it for a long time. she is upset. they know the fbi agents are across the street watching the embassy. the second time, they did not drug the guard. betty says to the captain, get undressed. he says, we are just pretending. but, they need to be relisted now. -- no, they need to look realistic now. she takes all of her clothes off, and she is wearing only pearls. [laughter] the door opens, the guard shines a flashlight on her. that he is standing there, stark naked, pearls. "oh, i'm so sorry." he goes back out. she throws on his lip. charles once her to get dressed. she was the kind of girl who went shopping without underclothes on. if a girlfriend remarked, you should wear underwear. she said, i don't have time for things like that. she starts working on the safe. she cannot get it open. now they will have to try another time. the georgia cracker will have to be enlisted again. he worked with her but they know they will have to go in another time. the next time, the georgia cracker is in and opens the safe. they get out the codebooks. they give them the codebooks. he hands them to cynthia. he drops out the window and she drops them down to him. they are photographed, fingerprints wiped off, returned to the embassy. she puts them in the safe. spins the tumbler. success. the cipher codes once obtained and photographed were sent to london. they got there within 24 hours. the oss use them during the allied north african landing. success. cynthia was eventually transferred to oss from the british. bill donovan, head of the oss approved her to continue working until the end of the war. he felt this collaboration had worked pretty well. now, what to do about the embassy? they needed to remove staff from the embassy. where could they put them? the hotel hershey. you might think of hershey candy. you may not know or you may know that during the war, hershey made the bulk of their chocolate for the army. there also housed the french diplomats. they kept them in the hotel hershey after they had to be removed from washington. they kept them there in style. betty wanted to join charles at the hotel hershey. the story have to be concocted. she would pose as his long-lost daughter. his wife was approached by intelligence and she went along with this scheme. her daughter had died. betty would be posing as her late daughter. charles would write at this point he did not even know his wife had a daughter. [laughter] betty will come to the hotel hershey. this worked briefly at the hotel where you can live quite comfortably. flowers delivered daily, all of the food you want. remember this is rationing in wartime in america but everything was given to them. you can use a medical excuse to go into town anytime you wanted. she would use that all the time. she would say she feels terrible. she goes into harrisburg meeting with intelligence, giving them information she has acquired. then, charles wife catches charles and betty in bed. she rages so loudly you can hear it throughout the hotel. betty has to be sent away. she tried to sneak back to see charles. she was caught on the grounds and they said, you have to leave. she said "i am just a naughty girl." eventually, after the war, betty and charles were married. he took her to his castle in france. i want to say they lived happily ever after but they did not. so i will end it here because it gets sad later on. this is cynthia. she wrote "i hope and believe i was a patriot." i believe she was. i look at her face, staring out at some unknown person through the years and i think, your story needs to be told. who would be good to play her in a movie? my son said steve carell. [laughter] even with prosthetics, i don't know about that. so, thank you for listening to the tale. [applause] >> i think this is almost downton abbey and 50 shades of grey meet the imitation game. ms. zanin: it feels very downton abbey to me. a brief note about her child. she did see tony has a young man before he shipped to the korean war. he had grown into a beautiful young person and unfortunately he died fighting to the last minute. he died with honors and was a true hero. she was comforted by that. but it just breaks your heart when he think about the baby being taken away from her. she is so lady edith, i can't stand it. >> questions for natalie? about cynthia? or elizabeth. >> we have one here. >> i didn't remember from the beginning, what year was she born? ms. zanin: 1910. >> she was in her early 30's during the 1940's. ms. zanin: yes. age did not dim her. >> what happened to her daughter? ms. zanin: her daughter died. denise was very unhappy. as you can imagine. her mother abandoned her and went off to live her life. in some ways, i think betty is repeating what cora did to her. cora ignored the children in favor of her social world. betty is doing the same thing. she is able at some point to compartmentalize and to say, that part of my life, goodbye. done. i am going to work with intelligence. almost as if denise doesn't exist for her. >> natalie, and how did the diaries -- were they in possession of the family? you made a number of references to the diaries. ms. zanin: i have not had my hands on the diaries. i have seen excerpts. i think the families have been. -- the family has them. >> you are a great storyteller. are you really not going to tell us the end of the story? ms. zanin: i will tell you. but it is not sexy and it is sad. betty and charles were very happy for a while. then, the restlessness crept in. she wanted to be useful and she was literally in a castle on top of a mountain. she was bored. she tried to alleviate the boredom. she kept up with old friends in intelligence, a lot of letter writing. eventually, she became ill. she died -- it was a very slow and painful death. i told you it was sad. charles also died not long after. he was electrocuted by his electric blanket, which then set fire to the castle. i told you it was awful. i did not want to tell you. when i read that in the notes, i thought, oh my gosh, i am ending it after hotel hershey. and then i said to my husband your electric blanket is never coming out of the package. [laughter] >> right over here. >> two questions. he started talking about british intelligence and then all the sudden, oss. did they pass her over to oss? ms. zanin: they were cooperating at that point, and i think it was a mutual benefit for them to work together. i believe oss might have had something, i cannot confirm, something to do with the fbi detail that watched the embassy. not being as alert as they should have been. certainly, if you are fbi and watching people every night going into the embassy as couples, that would be someone to -- yeah. i believe later on, the fbi may have bugged her hotel room but i am not an hundred percent certain. that would make sense to me, if they would go in. >> did her father and or mother have a lot of money? it sounds like they really had -- he was not just a military officer. ms. zanin: they did well. they were -- in newport, rhode island, they really moved in yachting circles. those boats require a lot of money. yeah, they did. >> one back here. >> it was already answered. >> right there. >> over 20 years ago, i read mary lovell's book. i was wondering what you thought. ms. zanin: i did look at that book. i got a sense she did not really like her subject. it is thorough and beautifully detailed. there was a sense as i read it that she was not that fond of betty. from the first moment i started reading about betty, i thought i just love this woman. it is beautifully detailed. it is worth reading. it is called "cast no shadow." there is one that is out of print by montgomery hyde. "cynthia," but you can get it through -- i do know what to plug anybody but -- [whispers] amazon. [laughter] it is very conversational. he is talking with betty shortly before she dies. she leaves a lot of things out. she is still in her flirtatious mode. she wants to come across well to hyde. she is not as detailed about certain things that, yeah, he probably was more interested in. she never named her lover carlos to him. she kept referring to him as antonio. [laughter] >> yes, right here. >> was there an exchange of embassy personnel between the vichy and our embassy in paris? were they kept prisoners? ms. zanin: they were kept prisoners the whole time and some of them who want to become americans were allowed to do so. some were shipped off to warm springs. the people of her she -- of hershey understandably less than thrilled. stories were circulating through harrisburg about how the french are living in the hotel. the things they are getting to eat that you can't get in hershey. after a while, people were very open with their pro-nazi sympathies, it was deemed that should be moved out of the hotel. then, the hotel goes back to being a proper hotel. >> natalie, thank you so much for a fascinating story. [applause] let me thank the smithsonian volunteers for joining us throughout the series. thank you. [applause] have a great rest of your day. be careful on the red line. [laughter] >> this week the c-span city store has partnered with cox communications to learn about the history and literary life of tulsa, oklahoma. >> frank phillips was an oil man. phillips 66 is something he founded it just north of us in tulsa. it became the headquarters of phillips 66. today, you still see the familiar phillips 66 shield, phillips 66 has become familiar as it is iconic in the minds of many motorists. he was part of that flamboyant oil fraternity that came out of the early -- late 19th century into the 20th century. these were men who had amazingly solid egos. they were very sure of themselves. that was important.

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