Helps support or non profit operations. Shop now, or anytime at cspanshop. Org. Were funded by these Television Companies and more. Including w. O. W. . The world is change. Today, the fast reliable Internet Connection is something no one can live without. Wow is there for our customers. With speed, reliability, value and choice. W more than ever it all starts, with great internet. W. O. W. supports cspan as a public service. Along with these other television providers. Giving you a front four seat to democracy. The fight over president bidens to loan cancellation is been a spotlight in a recently on a lesser known vehicle for congress to rein in agency rulemaking. Brigitte dooling joins us to talk about. That shes a law professor at Ohio State University. Good morning to you. Good morning, john. Congressional review act is this big that when they were talking about here. You explain first where it came from. And how it works. Absolutely. And the Congressional Review Act is a statute that allows congress to undo or disapprove regulations that have recently been issued by the executive branch. It was enacted in 1996. And allows congress to overturn rules. I study rules because they are fascinating but im the first to admit that theyre a little bit invisible. If you think about the air we breathe, thus the food we eat, the water we drink, the safety of our cars. The safety of our workplaces. All of that is covered by federal rules. Those rules exist because Congress Told created agencies and then told them to write rules. Sometimes, Congress Needs to reassert its control on the back and agencies have written those rules. And one of the ways we can do that is using Congressional Review Act. How do they define what a rule is . Thats a great question. Its controversial. Sometimes folks have different interpretations of what it means to be a rule. Which you think would be pretty obvious but in fact it isnt. When congress is unsure, they asked the Government Accountability office to issue a legal opinion to the site simply say one way or the other, sometimes its a rule. Thats the best we got. The definition can be a little bit ambiguous. Congress doesnt like a rule a federal agency has issued they want to overturn it. What happens on capitol hill . Any legislator can introduce resolution of disapproval and whats special about the cra is that it has expedited procedures attached to it. So it moves more quickly and easily through congress than ordinary legislation does. Ordinary legislation can get bogged down in committee but resolutions of disapproval have a quicker way at a committee for example. They also can be filibustered in the senate so that means that just a simple majority in the senate is enough to pass a resolution of disapproval and they dont need to get to 60 votes like to do for ordinary legislation. Viewers might even surprise that there was a vote last week in the Democraticcontrolled Senate on president bidens student loan plan and that vote went against president bidens plan this is a reason why that vote happened. Thats right and the resolutions allow legislatures to express their views and express their concerns with the rules or actions that federal agencies have taken. They took that vote last week. The president has signaled pretty clearly through different channels that he will veto that resolution. That can be overcome potentially but they would need to overcome it with two thirds majorities in the house in the senate. It doesnt look like they have those kinds of margins. And they were able to get those margins what happens to the federal agency, to the rule, how long does it take for that to be rescinded. Whats the process then . The rule goes poof if im honest. We act as though in the Congressional Review Act tells us to act as though the rule never existed. You have to jump in a time machine and go back to a period before that rule existed. That is what happens. It happens immediately. It has immediate effect. Which is a little tricky when the rule has already gone into effect. Its easier, more clean to do that one when a rule has yet to go into effect. Which is often the case because congress only has a limited window to disapprove these things. For a rule like the one you mentioned. The student loan forgiveness work. You have people whose loans have been forgiven. Whose interest has been held. Who havent been making payments on their loans for example. It really is an interesting and four key quandary and difficult quandary. Particularly for those borrowers who may be wondering how is this going to affect me . As a practical matter, as i say, that one is highly likely to be vetoed. By the president and so i dont think it will come to that. Your writer raised a question of how this works in practice. For Something Like a student debt forgiveness, it would lead to a pretty dramatic consequences. The Congressional Review Act as what were talking about this morning. This vehicle that congress can use to rein in the federal agencies. Thats our conversation for the next 20 minutes. You have questions about how it works or the history of it. Now would be a great time to call in on. It law professor at Ohio State University has been deeply involved in regulatory policy for a long time. The she is our guest. A great expert to talk to about. It her first appearance in the washington journal this morning. Very glad to have you. Penumbras for viewers to call in. Republicans 202 7488001, democrats 202 7488000 and independents 202 7488002. As folks are calling in, brigitte, congresss success rates in using the Congressional Review Act. It doesnt seem like it gets successful often. Theres been 20 les overturned total since the Congressional Review Act was put into effect. One happened back in the hundred and seven congress in 2001 and two. 16 rules overturned in 20 17 to 18 that hundred and 15 congress. Then it just three in the 117th congress. Explain why this doesnt seem to be that successful that often. And what was going on in 115 congress. Just to put those numbers into context. Any given year, federal agencies issue several hundred are rules. When you think about the types of numbers youre talking about. One, three, even 16. Its really a very small portion of the total number of rules that go out the door. The first time it was used was after the end of the clinton administration. There was a label rule related to Workplace Safety and our gunnar mix that was disapproved by the next administration. That is a trend youll see in the data. The Congressional Review Act and be used to disapprove rules. Right at the beginning of a new administration when the white house has changed control. In terms of the parties that are in the white house. Thats because its very unlikely that a sitting president would disapprove his own rules. Because the resolution to disapproval have to go through both the house and the senate. Then make their way to the president s desk to be signed into law. That creates a dynamic where you are very unlikely to see a regulation disapproved if that regulation was issued by the president. Who receives that a resolution disapproval on his desk. But youre right, there was not much activity at all in terms of disapprovals until the Trump Administration. When the number disapproval in the number of resolutions really spiked. Weve seen three in the Biden Administration as well so far. What that story doesnt quite tell you is that all along, it really since 1996. Legislators have been easing the Congressional Review Act to introduce these resolutions. Even in situations when its unlikely because of the reasons i just described that the president s going to sign them into law. Why is that. What is the it that legislatures are doing. It looks like its a useful tool for legislatures. This is building on some work that ive done with professor steve bala and daniel parish at the George Washington university of regulatory study center. That work showed that although it looks like the Congressional Review Act is hardly used at all. As you mentioned, only 20 times in disapproval. Its been used several hundred times to introduce resolutions of disapproval. We see legislatures reaching for it. Anthony messaging tool. As a way to signal their constituents that they hear them and hear their concerns. I think well continue to see. We have continued to see the tool used in that way. In recent years and going forward. Viewers might be wondering rather than a resolution of disapproval and a vote in congress and doing this after the fact. Why doesnt congress get a vote on the major rules that federal agencies are putting out there. A rule that has an Economic Impact of 100 Million Dollars or more. Some of these big rules. Why not have those go first to congress. To see if theyll approve it or not. Not give them the option of retroactively undoing rules that have already been obligated. That proposal has been introduced into congress for many years in a row. Its referred to as the rains act. That is exactly what youre describing. Or it gives congress the option to basically puts the ball in congresses court after an agency has written a role. And says do you want the agency to go forward with the. Acs are now. The default would be no unless congress acts. There were talking about a much larger number of regulations. Potentially that would be affected. Now were talking into the its a good question how many. He certainly less than probably 100 a year. The question with that as a practical matter is how much bandwidth does congress have to act on resolutions like that or approvals of regulations like that. Compared to occasionally taking up a disapproval. It flips the default. And asks congress to take a much more active hand in the regulatory process than they have been taking today it. When folks talk about the rains act. Sometimes they expressed concern that it may really come of the work. On all sorts of non controversial or rules where the legislatures dont have an issue. The weight is right now and Congressional Review Act. It leaves the ball in congresss court to act if they want to disapprove rather than asking them to affirmatively approve the regulations that the agencies are issuing. The rains acted stands for regulations from the executive in need of a scrutiny act. As you said that often gets put forward especially recent congress is. Were talking with brigitte dueling this morning. A law professor at Ohio State University. Were talking about the Congressional Review Act this effort by congress they can put forth a try to rein in federal agency. Couple callers for you. Jason is unaffordable indiana. Republican good morning. Good morning, john. Thank you for taking my call. This is a fascinating topic. I spend 35 years working in an industry that essentially was regulated entirely through the code of federal regulations. I know some of it is much more than i ever wanted. My question is this. Is there a similar path. Lets say for other Non Statutory situations. Lets say the president issues an executive order. And congress feels that hes overstepped into legislation. Is there a similar way that they can request a disapproval or passed the disapproval. Yeah, thats a great question. What do you reminding me of is a really important point which is that congress always has the ability to act through ordinary legislation. If the president issued an executive order and congress disagrees with it. They always have the opportunity to go through ordinary legislation or conduct oversight or expressed their displeasure through Appropriations Bills for example and withhold money. Congress had a lot has lots of vehicles to express its discontent with the executive branch once. In usual by the Congressional Review Act is that congress has said in this instance theyre going to give themselves some procedural shortcuts to make it easier for them to do this kind of oversight. That is limited to rules in this particular context. There is not something savvy would like what you described for executive orders. But congress could step in and issue a rebuke in the form of legislation or the other means that ive described. Dave in michigan. Independent, good morning. You are next. Iran with bridget. Yes, good morning. Brigitte when they rule on something. For the incentives as far as the way of revenue purposes. Do they have what is their data proof of the cost. When theyre trying to overrule they have amendments according to the new law they want to come in on i dont want them going for the i want to show some type of proof of what some kind of substantial data. I dont know if you can speak on that but i like to know how that works. Thank you. Absolutely. Thats a great question. When agencies do rules. Theyre expected to make pretty persuasive explanations for why theyre doing that role. That includes looking at things like the benefits of the cost. And other alternatives they consider for example. When Congress Steps into disapproval rule. Theyre not required to do any of that. They can exercise their judgment. In fact, when they issue the resolution of disapproval. It has a very strict format to it. Theres not a lot of opportunity for members of congress to say much in the bill. In the resolution itself about why theyre doing it. Of course, they have the opportunity to make four statements and other types of speeches. Everything from tweets to fall on a statement so you might get a little glimpses of the rationales. Its quite rare for that to include anything like a complete costbenefit analysis. The likes of which an agency would be expected to do when it issues the rule in the first place. On a costbenefit analysis. This comes up occasionally for environmental regulations. It seems like its easier to calculate the costs. How much a new rule is going to cost a the oil industry or the gas industry than a benefit of how do you calculate the benefit. The financial benefit of an acre of land saved or the incidents of cancer happening last. How do you calculate benefits versus costs. Its a great question. Its one of the executive branch has been working on for a long time. Because of what he described. It is harder to calculate things on the benefits side to the letter. But the most important thing that i think folks should know about costbenefit analysis is that its never i did this for over ten years in the federal government. Its not the case that you write out the cost on one column and right at the benefits on the other column. And then draw a line and see which is bigger. Its a less exact science than that. The goal of costbenefit analysis is to at least get on paper what we know. Sometimes we can quantify what we know and sometimes you cant. When we cant quantify things particularly on the benefits side but also sometimes on the cost side the most important thing about doing at the costbenefit analysis is the opportunity to express what those benefits and costs might be. So that we can think about them. And we can think about how much they might be. We can put out to the public actually an explanation of what the government thinks the benefits of the cost might be. So the public has an opportunity to weigh in and say i think you understated that or actually you overstated that. Thats the best we can do. Sometimes particularly when things like Human Dignity and other things around the line. That are basically impossible to quantify. The Government Works pretty hard to try to come up with ways to quantify things that are hard to quantify. As you can understand there certain things that are just a very challenging to put into numbers. That doesnt mean that we dont put them down on paper, write them out in narrative form. Just explain what they are and hopefully make a full and transparent accounting to the public of the tradeoffs of government action. Weve done the reins act lets do another strangely named washington d. C. Thing. You talk about your Previous Service what it is oh i. R. A. . Thats where i used to work. Is the office of information and regulatory affairs. Its a small office within the executive office of the president it has a few different roles but the one thats perhaps best known for is reviewing regulations. I spent over ten years working in the government. Working with agencies like the food and drug administration. And the department of labor. The department of education to work with them before the regulatory proposals go out the door to the public for consultation. Is the idea to avoid exactly where were talking about. Congress stepping in and trying to pull back some of these regulations after they go out the door . Thats definitely part of it. From my perspective if you get into the point of a disapproval its a failure. Agencies work really hard on their rules. It might take them months. It may take them years. It represents hundreds of hours of their effort to try to do the best regulatory proposal that they can. At the end of all of that. To have congress swoop in and disapprove it is really something the agencies want to avoid the review touches a lot of different topics certainly not just avoiding a Congressional Review Act disapproval. But that review is the point of it is to make sure that rules are ready to go out to the public. That agencies have consider the tradeoff so different actions that theyre considering. And i theyve done their best to explain to the public and to potential future judges down the line all of the things they considered and the different tradeoffs associated with the hard policy choices that we ask agencies to make. Few minutes before the house comes in for the day.