Virtual. We powered a new reality. In Mediacom Mediacom with these Television Companies the cspan 2 as a public service. Georgetown University ProfessorBrian Hochman joins us now for a conversation about his book, the listeners a history of wiretapping in the United States. Professor hochman, its a history that goes back further than a lot of people would think. You begin the book with the story of d. C. Williams. Who is he . Williams was a stockbroker in the state of california who concocted a somewhat elaborate scheme to listen to Corporate Communications and make insider trades, essentially, based on the information he gathered. He turns out to be the First American ever jailed for tapping a wire, in 1864. He was imprisoned or convicted under a statute written in the state of california in 1862. Which means that the practice of wiretapping and laws against it, prohibitions against, it date back all the way to the age of the telegraph. Each of the civil war. When i discovered this story, eight years ago, i was stunned. I dont know wiretapping went back about four. The book that ive written traces that history all the way to the age of the telegraph, up and to our own digital age today. Dc williams was literally tapping a telegraph wire. What does the term wiretapping, as we use it today, mean in Todays Society . Americans tend to use the term wiretapping somewhat promiscuously. We use it to referred all manner of electronic eavesdropping, electronic surveillance. From the amazon alexa passively listening, to be at, noise and be a conversations in your home, to the nsas data valence schemes since 9 11. This is not exactly what that issue when we talk in legal terms, technological terms, about the practice of wiretapping. Which, strictly speaking, refers to the interception of messages, conversations carried by wire live, from asunder to a receiver. This is a practice, again, that dates all the way to the 19th century. When wiretap ors like williams would literally tap into, splice into, the telegraph network. And over here is morris code as it clicked away. Thats how telegraphed tapping worked in the late 19th century, early 20th century, really up until the 19 80s thats what we are talking about. Technologically, just so we stay on the same page here, the difference between wiretapping, bugging and eavesdropping . These are confusing distinctions. And confusing for a variety of reasons. And the law was confused on these distinctions for about 100 years, which is quite interesting. Wiretapping is listening to a, recording it telephone conversation, even an electronic exchange. Bugging is the, more strictly speaking, the use of hidden recording equipment, he did microphones, to surreptitiously listen in on private conversations. This is the practice that also dates back to the 19th century, the late 19th century, it really picks up after world war ii. And where did the term eavesdropping come from . Eavesdropping is a very old term. It dates back to Historical Records are hazy on this, but it refers to the practice of literally listening under the eaves of someone else s home, where the raindrops from the roof to the ground. But prohibitions against eavesdropping date back all the way to the 15th century, 16th century in the United Kingdom. But its not until, of course, the 19th century in the United States when it comes under american law. A history of wiretapping in the United States, thats our conversation in this final hour of the washington journal. Brian hochman is our guest, hes the author of the book, the listeners, from Harvard University press. Came out earlier this spring. With us and here to take your phone calls. Phone lines, as we had last segment, regionally. If youre in the eastern or central time zones it is 202 7488000. If youre in the mountain or pacific time zones, 202 7488001. Thats the number to join the conversation. We will take this until 10 am eastern. Page five of your book, you write this. That wiretapping was once a business, as Supreme Court justice all over Wendell Holmes jr. Famously characterized it more than 90 years ago. Now, its a standard investigative tactic, indispensable in the detection of crime and essential to the protection of National Security. How did we get from there to here . How do you answer that question . It takes a whole book to explain it. But this is the central story about the book tells, how it is that wiretapping goes from a tactic thats associated with criminals, conman, 30, unethical characters, too unacceptable, legally unacceptable if controversial tactic used in the detection of, crime protection of National Security and detection of crime. The central transition and that story from dirty business too acceptable investigative tactic is the rise of punitive law and order politics in the 1960s. Which essentially normalized the practice of wiretapping in america. It took about 100 years for the government to establish its wiretap authority, and its only in the wake of the civil rights uprisings of 1966 and 1967 that the government is able to finally get in on the act, legally speaking. Even though of course theyve been doing it for much longer. That, i think, tells us a number of important things about the history of surveillance in this country. Its not necessarily a kind of kneejerk response, as we might think, to anti communist, cold war anti communism, or even today antiterrorism priorities. But instead a gradual accommodation, too much more subtle and problematic sets of Law Enforcement imperatives. That i believe are critical to the rise of our carceral society. Going back to it being a dirty business, we talked about dc williams, the first person convicted of wire tapping. But wiretapping, a tactic used in the civil war for military purposes. Something that federal troops and confederate troops both participated in. Why was it considered a dirty business at the beginning . Wiretapping begins as a military art. The civil war is the first conflict in World History in which the use of Electronic Communications proves instrumental on the battlefield. Both sides, union and the confederacy, develop wiretapping techniques to listen in on the enemies conversations, so to speak. The tactic of wiretapping receives fawning National News coverage during the conflict, throughout the conflict. Indeed both in the United States and across the atlantic, as i discovered. But very quickly after the war, it falls into distrust be as a result of characters like dc williams. The government and Law Enforcement had very little interest or even need to tap telegraph lines in the 19th century, simply because most telegraph companies kept copies of every message on file for six months or up to a year, that were accessible to subpoena. Its a lot easier to file through a telegraph Companies Filing cabinet that it is to actually sit on the line and listen to moores code. That means that wiretapping grows up in the late 19th century as the nations dependence an electronic communication grows, in the hands of criminals and conman. There is a real powerful association in this period, really up until the 1920s and 1930s, between wiretapping and the criminal element. This is why i, setting aside longstanding concerns about privacy rights, this is why Law Enforcement has such trouble establishing its wiretap authority in the early decades of the 20th century. So, what happened in the 20s and 30s . Were talking gangster, era al capote, elliott ness. Prohibition era, wiretapping, this is where the rubber meets the road in history, this is really where Law Enforcement in earnest gets in on the act. The date we can point to as a landmark in this history is 19, 28 thats when the Supreme Court handed down a landmark decision in fourth amid jurisprudence known as halmstad versus the United States, that deems wiretapping constitutional according to the fourth and fifth amendments. This comes the Prohibition Bureau and Law Enforcement more generally the greenlight to wiretap it in the open, although they had been performing wiretaps, conducting electronic surveillance operations, for decades under the radar. As a result of the great areas in the law, its really that prohibition experiment that brings wire tapping into the mainstream domain of Law Enforcement. But even then, it takes another four decades, from 1928 to 1968, for the government to finally establish its wiretap authority and finally establish the system of wiretap oversight that is still very much in place today. A history of wiretapping in the United States, that is the subtitle of the book, the listeners. I Brian Hochman, professor at Georgetown University is the author and joining us. Let me pause here and bring in some colors on this topic. Anthony miller from new york, good morning, youre on with professor hochman. Thank you professor for joining us, thank you to the moderator as well. Perhaps you can both answer my question, if not today than its a future segment says hes been would air. Its troubled me greatly ever since barack obama came into office, he was able to wipe clean a lawsuit that had been pending, believe it was hepa dig versus at t and the nsa. The thought police have been a well oiled machine in this governmental apparatus since the beginning of time, theyve only perfected it. When you consider the fact that mark kline was a whistleblower who came forward and exposed what the nsa had been doing by illegally wiretapping, they had set up a big brother machine, what they referred to it as. Whereby they were allowed to go through everything you do. Every keystroke, every phone conversation. Its hard for us as regular people to know exactly how sophisticated the technologies have evolved. But Barack Obamas for a signing statement as president was to dismantle that lawsuit, this was a standing lawsuit against a criminal act, against the constitution. And, yet it was wiped clean by a single stroke of a president ial pen. I wonder, was that legal . I dont believe that it was. When you weigh that into the Cambridge Analytic a scandal, what is going on with spying on our own president s. You had general milley calling a chinese general and telling him, dont worry, this virus whatever. It seems to me that tyranny , anthony let me pause there and get professor hochman to chat about that a little bit. I dont know if youre familiar with that specific case, but the nsa in general . Im not familiar with this specific case the color of first to. But this charge that the caller is making, of wiretapping and electronic surveillance as a form of tyranny, this is an old refrain. And was a refrain that was once mainstream an American Political Culture. This is the kind of position against electronic surveillance conducted either via private citizens or the government that animated both the right and the left for about a century. We live in a very different political age and those positions have, i think, been pushed somewhat to the margins. The caller is also referring to, i believe, at ts listening room. Room 606 or 6 12, in the fulsome street at t switching station and san francisco. This was discovered in, i believe, 2006 or 2007 as a result of a whistleblower. That exposed at ts practice of kind of enabling the government, the nsa and other agencies, to listen to private conversations through backdoor channels and the internet and telecommunications infrastructures. This too has a long history as well, as early as 1895 the new York Telephone Company is leasing lines to the new York Police Department, the nypd. So, the relationship between telecommunications, companies, Telecommunications Industry more generally and Law Enforcement imperatives, this is long in the making. I dont think we could see the last ten, 15 years of history accurately unless we see the hundred years, 120 years, that preceded it. A quote from your book that jumped out. The american ideal of electronic privacy as never existed in practice. So, this is a provocation. I mean two things when i say the privacy has never existed in practice when we think about communications privacy. The first is that wiretapping and electronic surveillance, historically speaking, technologically speaking, have been historically coextensive with the rise of Electronic Communications. Theres no such thing as Electronic Communications without electronic eavesdropping. What it is that we mean when we talk about electronic privacy it is somewhat fraught, i would say, as a result. But that is a somewhat grim story and the other side of that same coin, this is the second thing im referring to when i say privacy has never existed in practice, is that privacy has animated political constituencies to work successfully against the intrusions of government and technology for about 150 years. When i say privacy has never existed in practice, im also trying to capture something of this lost sense of political commitment that animated so much of American Political Culture up until the 1960s, and dissipates after the triumph of the law and Order Coalition in the late 1960s. Well head up to michigan, this is allen waiting. Allen, good morning. Good morning. As far as this patriot act, if we go back in time now. But coal got blown up in 18, we had our pants down and we didnt do anything about it. Then two years later weve got the stinking patriot act, thats a heck of a name. I hope the top secret criminalized work with admirals, navy. The world youre talking about, although i was 40, perfect for us, dont have respect for the civilian world, sir. Lets go to those pfizer warrants. Went papadopoulos and carter actually spied on, as barr said . They were spied on. Theyve about ruined trump in every way that they can, and it still continues to this day. Trump, hasnt he been the most scrutinized, spied on man in the history of man . Asking a couple questions there. I think that history has yet to be written. I think we will know a lot more as time unfolds. There is a lot in that comment. I think, one responds to offer, i immediate response, is to suggest the story of wiretapping in america isnt simply a story about government, spying on politicians, private citizens. Its also a much more prosaic story, much more mundane story. One of the things i was shocked to discover in researching this book was just how prolific wiretapping was in the private sector up until the 1960s and 1970s in the United States. Far more lines were tapped interest dictions like new york in the 19 50s to litigate civil disputes and divorce cases then there were to spy on communist subversives or even bringing down mafioso and the like. Theres a tangled history that is behind that reality, behind the numbers. But it suggests that the story of wiretap and goes in directions that i think popular understanding and popular memory today might not necessarily expect, might not necessarily be familiar with. Part of the work of my book is to uncover that story, which i believe is a true area story of trevor story in the sense of the historical record, also in the sense of how earlier generations of americans understood the problem and litigated against it. What put you on the path of writing this book . I came to this project very much by accident. I stumbled upon the story of dc williams, buried in the columns of the 19th century newspaper. And i was shocked to discover that wiretapping went back so far. Im a historian of technology, a cultural historian of the United States, and i should have known better. I wanted to understand, one, the reality of that history, how far it goes back. And to, why it is, that as an educated american, i would think of wiretapping and electronic surveillance more generally as more modern and more contemporary phenomena. Without doing very much, digging i discovered that it wasnt a subject that had received much historical treatment. There is a lot of work that has been done and legal scholarship surrounding the history of the Fourth Amendment, surrounding Fourth Amendment law, electronic surveillance law, wiretap law. But outside of the domain of law, in the domain of policy, in the domain of culture, and the domain of technology, that story hadnt really been told. And i had to be the one to tell it. Sticking to the domain of culture, how is wiretapping, how is bugging, eavesdropping, how has it been portrayed in our media specifically cinema, throughout the decades . This was a very important story for me to follow. Contrary to our understanding of electronic, surveillance particularly government, surveillance pointing here at the Capitol Building behind you. Contrary to that image of wiretapping as the province merely as a shadowy surveillance tape it goes on behind closed doors, in the realm of Shadowy Government secrets, wiretapping has been a perennial