Researched and engagingly her own ccount of family, which is not always an easy thing to do. And i want to start with some specific questions and then read a couple of things. Then therell be a little socialist jeopardy to keep her going. But well start with why this book now. A story about an american a time at war and a time when the country was going cultural me Major Political economic and social upheaval. In the federal government was going to the post office. Our years later, that was in 1914. 1917 happens, the United States sprs the war. Men are millions of being drafted. Their s of men see government working in and women too, see the government in a much different light. Were forced to reckon with questions about what a obligation to his country is. What a brothers obligation to another brother. What sons and daughters obligations to their parents are hasnt, you just know, 20 years before. Of course, these questions just arise, you know, in a day. Hey were planted in the few decades that had come before. Were also a country at war. The questionbating of to what extent should we be committing our resources and the citizens lives and our money our ur and our time and faith. Not only to the government, but citizens, and, you know, so i think theres a perennial questions. And the way because the hange was so extreme and the kind of transition was so violent, literally and had to reckonthey with these questions in a way really brought them to the fore. And looking at the way they did hat, we can see how these questions still live in our lives. So, when you think about the really from t. R. Threw wilson. A rapid organization. A nascent Progressive Movement that gives us the legislation gives us socialization and ratified. Ou have as you say a Selective Service system that engaged the broad population when conflict came up. Would you say that that might be the most striking difference in of the issue that got all of the all four of these involved . It was not as though today we get to choose whether or not were interested in serving. Then b it was not so much a choice. Confronted much more correctly with a conscientious decision. Fight, not fight . Find way to serve . Is the cause just . You think these brothers given some other choice if they had been sort of out of the ontext would have dealt with the same issues . I think the draft that did exist in that time was certainly forced the at the ers to reckon with concepts that people dont have worry about today. Today. I never worry about having to country. For my i was born after vietnam. That ever omething mind. Crossed my they saw that war was really an and it required engagement or commitment that surpassed what they didnt have to do or did have to do. Norman thomas, for example, didnt have to fight. He was older than the draft age. A clergyman. It made him exempt. He had a large family dependent on him. To engage in some you of process that tested, countryether or not the be doing what it was doing, he chose to. There was something odd about that. Phrase, selective ervice, theres something behind the story about why to call it Selective Service. A debate over whether or not there will would be a draft. There was a debate on whether or not they would send soldiers here. There was an amazing story even ration when dek la officerssman, military are testifying on congress on what resources theyll have to command. He says, of , course, well need soldiers. He congressman said, my god, youre not going to send soldiers to him are you . Nobody drafted him. As late as mid april, weeks after, they were passing the Armed Services committee was passing in 17. Im sorry. Talking about was rejecting the draft as a measure. Was a man in george creal, journalist, who wilson, he was one of the first wilson called. Go war. S decision to publicup a commission on education. It was propaganda. He was brilliant. Doesnt sound like one. Calling it ted Selective Service. Appeals to the sacrifice. Nd service, wilson announced the draft and said this is in no way this conscription of the unwilling. It is, rather, i think i dont phrase, but exact its rather, you know, the ecision of people who have volunteered en masse. There was conscription. They put up the draft. They said you have three enlist, you can call a list and call up later or be deemed to have been enlisted. Therell always be an england. Lets talk about the brothers. Ut them in context at the beginning of your story. Who are they . Where are they . Whats going on . There are four thomas brothers. The oldest. S is went to prince ton. They have the same background. The son of a presbytarian minister, conservative in all ways, very much of the wide pread progressive ethos that held that times were getting better. And norman went to prince ton debate. Loved he knew wood row wilson there, is College President and professor. Took every class he could with wood row wilson. Afterwards, he became a minister. Tenements work in the on spring street right across the island where he was exposed o some pretty extreme degradation. Although thats not really what radicalized him. There was very much there was a movement at the time called the social Gospel Movement which held, basically, that the point christianity wasnt just to enter heaven but to establish a earth. M of god on this is mainline precedence. Young men coming out of the kind of middle class and tenements and he thought they were only galted to try to make the world a better place. He goes to theological seminary, liberal seminary and then he goes to work at a ery fancy church on fifth avenue. Marries a socialite. Ooks like hes headed towards living a very comfortable life. To he and his wife decide move to east harlem and work in the tenements there, mostly and hungaryians. Those were the two largest in populations. New york at that time, the coming off of t this explosion of immigrants that had come to the country. Third of the 92 million or so people were first or Second Generation americans. Started to he really see that the way the country was sustainable orot just and they had to change. Started down that path and then the war was over. Ralph, the second brother, also went to prince ton. Hey went to m. I. T. , became an engineer. Quite conservative, very happy life u know, live a good nd be fair to others and, you know and do his duty. Obsessed with y duty as were most of the victorian young men. Began, he e war enlisted right away, became a captain in the army. Edwin thomas iii was much more tortured. He saw that there were some looked around them and saw that this kind of effort that christians tended to make were, you know, were not doing anything. A lot of s hypocritical, you know, selfsatisfaction involved. He when the war broke out in urope went to study in scotland. Part of the movement there. Came back over to become a conscious objector when the to the war. S went the onstantly had to push boundary of what was acceptable in order to show hes being true himself or true to his principles and fighting for freedom or keeping some kind of or liberty alive. And then the youngest was a lot less sure of what to do. Struggled in the difference and of didnt know what he wanted to do. Thought about being a farmer. Hought about being a missionary. You have the three mighty oaks in front of you. Bed ng you can get out of in the morning. Yeah. Hes on the balloon on occasion. Said theres no place such as ton for a boy you. Mama . St have been a she had an extraordinary past. She grew up in siam as the missionaries and the father was the president of one of the first allblack colleges the reconstruction south. He went on to marry a minister conventional life in ohio with a big brood of kids. Sort of church causes. But she was actually one was she was maybe the most interesting person to me in really s because she struggled to negotiate between her children even as her views were being challenged by them. Talk about norman and walk the real crises the brothers faced as the question was engaged . Norman became a pacifist at end of 1916, so right before the United States entered the war. He became involved in some organizations, antiwar organizations. The American Union against militarism, sort of the most prominent one. That was sort of the very nascent structure that would aclu after the war. The fellowship of christian group. T and he sort of started working. Hey worked through political channels and also grassroots organizations. Evan didnt believe in politics. I mean, wanted to he had a kind of a martyr dom in him. To come he decided back to the United States to take a stand. Ralph thought he was heeding a call for freedom. Arthur went back and forth. Whether to go west or become an officer. He ened up joining wanted to be a fighter pilot. Very adventurous. Wanted to move himself too. Very much a part of that ethos. Favorite. I identified the most with him. Graph. You to read this conscious can be a notion. Tic its hard to say what it is. Too rigid a person or selfrighteous. It can be used to justify ones, a ven heinous group of right wing germans, the party for conscience. It can encourage egotism and selfabsorption or assume a full speech. Thine own self be true. It can merge with tolerance or onflict with possibility which means doing whats possible even if its not perfectly right. How did that wonderful definition of conscious play out norman . Its funny. Fter norman established the party, a sociologist named essay aboutwrote an him. And theres the famous ethics of of the responsibility and conscience. And the problem with norman homas is he lived his life according to he thought that the state should have an ethics of conscience. I dont think thats really fair. I think he was much more alert compromises that a government is supposed to make. It i think that the story does illustrate he limits and dangers of thinking too much about, you know, what how do we treat urself instead of, you know, what obligations you have to other people. That at was something norman was alive to at the time. Right after evan had gone on a strike to protect the draft, he wrote evan a letter said, no man lives in all of himself. He real challenge is to live among other people. They talked about the idea of of conscience. Everybody has the freedom to act according to conscience. A nazi, basically. It was something they were not able to define, you cant. They could never solve some of problems that they face. Engaged thought you had in them. Would Norman Thomas legacy culture rsistence of a of freedom of conscience. More specifically one asard what we would think of nonviolence and attempting to gentle the life of this world. Avoiding s really violence at all costs. Costs . All im going to come back to that. Norman did not remain a pacifist his whole life. Ut i dont see why you also have to make a i dont think its an either or statement. Think that people in freedom in part because of violence. What is force if not imposing your will on the other person. Theres defense . Theres defense too. Ut, you know there s the whole world war ii thing. World war the whole ii thing. Yeah, he think that was in the civil rights movement. Number of lved in a nuclear disarmaments, a number of causes that i would hope both sides of the issue. Became a his after m was suspended pearl harbor looking forward. Yes. He sort of thought it was a moot that point. The 1930s is a different situation. Had seen too many of boss haig and some kind of ugly leaders not to fear fascism in this country. He worried that in light of he Great Depression and in light of some of the abuses that country at war in this would lead to fascism here. Hear that in t of kind of cant believe it this is the great estrogen ration . Would never fascism would never occur here. But he worried about that. It was a life here. Now, the one story i grew up thomas, bout, norman a pocketful. It involves a story with franklin roosevelt. You want to tell this story . Sure. You knew this was coming. I knew this was coming. This is johns favorite story. Normans causes in the 1930s was he was working on behalf of sharecroppers in the who were being murdered and lynched. Unbelievable things were happening. Laws were happening in cities that he couldnt meet and groups and there were driveby and unbelievable situations. When they tried to unionize, it got much, much worse. And he got it out of the south town by been run out of a man carrying shot guns and the whole thing. Roosevelt letter after letter and saying youve got do something. He gets to the meeting at the house. He goes roosevelt, you got to do something. Unconscionable. And roosevelt looks across the desk and says, you know what, norman . Im a damn sight better politician than you are. And weve got le to wait. People are doing good work down there. To take some g time. Saying, it cant wait. Know, it was this is what the response of some pacifists would say. Ou cant wait, you cant let this go on. That was his response to what south. Pening in the you know . Ultimately, you know, things did change. And it did take a lot of time. But you could say like, maybe in the 1930s with the political climate, social climate, wouldnt allow for roosevelt to come in and the National Guard and change things. You know, maybe you had to wait 30 years. But a lot of bad things happen in the south in 30 years, you know, kind of racial violence. What are the things that fdrs own selfconscious was awakened when eleanor brought him to this part of new york. Insofar as he was able to roject those values domestically, how do you on the you come out issue of the limits of politics but the demands of justice . Because no one would argue now failures of of the reconstruction, because of the crow, because jim of the Robert Barrons in the orth, in the economic oppression, that many, many social reforms should have happened earlier. Many, many social reforms that should have happened right now will not. Man in theres another the white house who believes hes a damn sight better and ician than when he whatters in. That tend to be an occupational as hard for people behind that desk. Where do you come out . Is this just a tragedy of history . Or are there moments when individuals do make mistakes . Eleanor herself she liked to werent married to the man in the white house, she would have left for marvin thomas. Individuals who made a difference, actually. Too. I think fdr was and maybe Norman Thomas was too. You know . Right. Was but he was part of he was pushing er and she was im and i think its much more organic than, you know, you can never point to someone and say, heres the difference. I do think that politics is messy and we make painful compromises all the time. Nothing works according to plan. And everything has a plymouth. Think that evan thomas, objective, he us got in a fight about politics. He said, norman, i dont youre nd the moves making. Do you understand that the state is going to respond the state the president has ap responsibility to act according to the popular majority . Your moves are muddled hedy. He stiffly and unconventionally back. Were doing all sorts of things. I think that norman was an effective socialist . Or an effective politician as a socialist . I think it was not i think fdr was right. I think he was a damn sight norman. Olitician than do i think there was a place for norman in the american political system . Absolutely. Do i think that there should be maybe more of those . I think so. The health nk that of democracy requires the sort ideas. N exchange of and the kind of battles that he norman and his friends during world war faced about do you reform from the inside or outside . Do you try to get a seat at the table . You know . The best u what is way to get your point across, your message across. To do justice . We just maybe arent as noisy people once were. I thats a question that wanted to ask you about generational responsibility. That your great grandfathers generation, the and Political Landscape ive him a bigger voice as a socialist candidate, as a figure always of dissent than able for ly are whatever reason to give voices outside the main stream . Know, your , you generation has created this interweb. Ed the and is that going to open this up . I think thats a the internet is opening it up and also drowning it out. So its hard to hard to say for sure. American that the political system doesnt allow for third parties very easily. A little more so in socialism me because actually, in dea, 1912. Vote. E dubs got 6 of the now if anyone calls himself a ocialist, it would be, you know, because theyre evil, whatever. Or a nazi or or the recipient of a wall street bailout. The recipient of a wall bailout. So yeah. Theres a little bit more generational come play sen sip than there was in his generation. Aybe because we dont have to go to war. Maybe because it was just a smaller world . You know . You could get access to the president , you know . You can do a report its easier to challenge. Be a it was smaller. We now know the things you want out certainly have a tendency to get out. Highly t there in this educated, highly affluent eneration of which youre a member, a higher level of social a way that we timinzian nize as a part of thehe early century. I heard people say that there is more than you know, more than meets the eye. I think that you could make the argument that people are of community nd projects. Has, ow, to a degree that you know, as they might not be interesting getting to politics, but theyre interested in starting companies that renewable know, have Energy Impacts or things like that. Which i sort of like social social ends. I think that your one of your early questions is part of the answer. A kind of demand upon my generation. More k there should be equitable sacrifice made across the population. The reason i bring this up is reading the book, i kept coming hear these brothers in theyre thoroughly engaged time, fied political projection of force, a president had trouble of congress and. Anaged to suspend because theres not the possibility that the upper harms lass can be in way, then it all becomes academic. I submit if we had approaches to with all m era draft of the exceptions that we could erve nationally at home as opposed to militarily, all that, happens, is there anyone who plausibly believes it could in 2004 or still in afghanistan. I think its arguable. A debate that we can have. You can make an argument for it. At the same time. Academic question. I dont think it will happen. The great grandfather would have the academic cards. We do have to have them. But playing fdr on me. Im a damn sight better, something. One of the hat things to remember about these brothers and one of the reasons these storiesg at are really valuable is that they were really working out how to these questions. There was an urgency. We felt new questions them. These are new questions, we of tension he kind responsibility as an individual, ethics, morally. It all sounds like economic terms. But it came down to it, are you country . Die for your are you going to change society in such a way that its not as unequal . Not as unjust . We have huge structural problems in this country, you know . The poverty rate among second to 22 , mexico . Really big things going on. Not questions we think about. I dont. We dont have to. Its im lucky. Live my life and do ue my opportunities and what i want to do. Not the case for everyone, though. A compelling and come police it way, which is a difficult thing to do. Anyone reading it now will find quite resonant thats going on and now. Ding around the news and forever more. Im going to ask you to read this. Ere going to take some questions from you all. Right or wrong, he loved his family. When he feels speaking out against the United States his into world war ii, son, evan thomas ii volunteered to drive ambulances for the british. Just before he shut down sent him 1941, norman a letter. Ugly world, d youve chosen what is for you im sure the best possible course. Can tell you, we shall be missing you and loving externalishing for the good fortune and more for the intercourage and hope. Follies, the madison men are made for Better Things exploring exploration. It will be happiness to carry a watch until you return to claim it. He was my grandfather. Watch now. Its a reminder that normans was not the nations, it was his own. The book is conscience. Louisa thomas, tuf. [ applause ] now, we have instructions you must follow conscientio conscientiously. If you have questions, just come right up here for them. This gentleman has been notes. Never a good sign. Could you talk about normans inspiration and all by the work reid . N sure. 1918. Man socialism in e didnt mention at all that there was a Russian Revolution in 1917. Many liberalslike the world was hugely inspired by this. Too. An was so was Walter Woodman and woodrow wilson. Address, he said basically how we treat russia democracy. Est of our became norman inspired by of as the utopian project as john reid was. When you applied for the you explained , not part of the socialist party. And you have to be successful. The socialist party. In the midwest, a nonpartisan league. I fear that the party is not lways reflective of civil liberties. S a not a marxist. Fear any capitalistic or socialistic has control of the men. Of more good and he sent this letter out and the application was returned to because he had not filled out the other side of the practical information. He i k that actually if he knew john reid, i dont know. In this point in time. Knew people like max eastman, other socialists, or scott uiren, other people who were there. They were tragic in their own way. Because normans story was different and followed a different path. To what extent did the in europe in g on the past three years, evan, over in scotland. He and influence what norman thought as opposed to what raffle and arthur. It was huge. Unbelievable. As 1. 8 million germans, 1. 8 million 1. 4 million frenchmen. The deaths just astonish, even u. S. , the u. S. Lost about 50,000. Lasted six ighting months. 120 men a day. Thats just unbelievable. Over in the scotland, also in a little bit. And you know, he saw what it was see them come home and things like that. Ut every man responds to violence and every culture responds to violence in different ways. Was actually wounded on the western front and recuperating in the hospitals. But he remained proud of what he did and was the right thing. I think they were well aware of devastating the violence was. But the extremity of the violence is one of the reasons hy they thought they had to be fighting for something greater. That was for another country. It had he reasons that to be a kind of a it would only be a just war and the loss would only be justified if something so great could emerge from this. Hats also why, one of the reasons why it was so hard to give it up, you know . It was just appalling. Actually, just to jump right off of what you just said. Im curious how much the civil war is in the imagination of hese brothers, the fact that their mother as you said was in south as im assuming with own parents t her were established or not. I think of the brothers and if his had been the 1840s or 1850s, petition and protestant of the d the morality Protestant Church would have radicals leading the brigades in certain ways. Much r point that if this violence is worth of some higher morrell cause, like the emancipation, they dont see in world war i, do they as a bout the civil war war that might have been worth it . Is it in their conscience at all . The past movement, they drew on the example of the abolitionists. They were talking about war in the same way eradicated. And they said that once that had aid people said reform will be gradual, that would be impossible, whatever. This happened, war, too, can be eradicated. War is a kind of a slavery in its own way. Hey saw themselves as the inheritors of that tradition. The civil war, its interesting civil war is only a generation or two away at this time. Isaac this congressman, sherwood who stood up and brought the debate about whether go to war. He said ive seen war. We cannot go to war. There are w i think other historians to say that very generation fights its own war, you know . Anything else . Thank you, the book is conscience. Youre watching American History tv, all weekend, every weekend. On American History survivor Marcel Drimer describes world war ii. Forced s about being into a ghetto, going to hiding, and his fathers sacrifices and to keep the family alive and together. He describes what he and his concert of d the death. It was part of the united museumsfirst holocaust first person series. Its a little over an hour. Will share with us his first person account of his experience in the holocaust and survivor for 45 minutes. It if theres time at the end of have an am, we will opportunity to ask marcel a few questions. Holocaust ories of survivors transcend the decades. What you are about to hear from one individuals account of the holocaust. A production to help. He was born in polish, a small ukraine. Of the the arrow on this map from europe in 1933 points to
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