Transcripts For CSPAN3 Beyond 20240706

Really. Ours years later. Im christopher bracey, pearl provost and executive Vice President for Academic Affairs here at the George University and is my distinct honor and pleasure to introduce our third moderator for today, tom shanker. Tom is the director of our project for and National Security in the of media and public affairs, which is part of our Columbian College of arts and sciences. Tom was named to his position in june of 2021. After nearly a quarter century with the New York Times, including 13 years as a pentagon correspond and in covering the depart department of defense overseas combat operations and National Security, he most recently as the deputy washington editor, the times managing coverage of the military diplomacy and Veterans Affairs early in the war in afghanistan, tom was embedded with Army Special Forces at kandahar and subsequently conducted of reporting trips to afghanistan and in iraq. Toms new book is entitled age of danger keeping safe in an era of new superpowers, new and new threats. It will be published on may 9th. Tom we look forward to your panel. Beyond the war. And its my pleasure to you to the stage. Thank you so much for that very generous reaction. Thanks of you for returning after lunch. Thats always, you know, a moderators concern, just one point to be made. The authority of the chair of the provost was kind enough to speak about the project for media and national that i am honored to direct. We talked all morning about the of vietnam to today the project for media and National Security was founded just after the end of the war in vietnam by two reporters who were deeply concerned about the horrible state of military Media Relations, something that well talk about later. And since all those years, the project convenes small meetings, Large Group Meetings between senior military, National Committee officials and the Washington Press corps to try to reestablish at least some level of trust in an adversarial environment and to help educate the American Public about these very important things. So legacy that weve been talking about lives today here at gw, at the school of media and public affairs. So i am honored to be moderating just a really outstanding panel of, distinguished journalists and authors. Elizabeth becker is former correspondent for the Washington Post, npr and the New York Times, where we first met. Among her many books on and cambodia is you dont belong here how three women rewrote the story of the war. Next to her is david maraniss. He currently serves as associate editor the Washington Post. And even though im a former times man, theres no macys. Gimbel competition today will will be okay. Among his many books is, they marched into sunlight war and peace, vietnam and america. October 1967. And on the forehead is jim starbuck. He was a war correspondent for the New York Times in in 1969 and 1970. His include nature wars, the incredible of how wildlife comebacks turned backyards into battlegrounds. So thank all three of you for joining us today. And i am honored to be your moderator. Our Mission Today is to talk about the Cultural Impact of the and beyond. And i know all three of you have thought about vietnam and its Cultural Impact through those years to today in very different ways. And i just love to hear each of you speak about it. Jim, id like to start with you, please. One of the problems that has up in the 50 years is that the since all volunteer army, which is the result of the war was, is that the the the military the army has gotten very estranged. The civilian population. Theyre they cant recruit enough. Something like at last figure i believe was Something Like 85 of the people in the military have had had relatives that had fathers and grandfathers in the military and that a huge of all the recruits for the army come from a five or six states along the southern. And so a lot of the people in the other parts of the country have less and less do no less and less. The the military and that thats having an enormous on. I think the term viability, the military. I was at a conference at fort benning when the ken burns. Lynn novick vietnam documentary came out in the recruiting general was there talking what ought to be done about this and and there were about 600 current officers and retired military officers that conference. And he asked at the end, what should we do . And almost everybody said there ought to be a National Service input now we ought to have at least one or two years of everybody serving in either the military, the peace, the teacher corps, some kind of form of National Service, kind of coalesce the country around the notion of that kind of service. Thats one of the problems. But you also see a disconnect in our National Security policy. The case has been made that, you know, when we had a draft army, every family or most families or many families felt the impact of the war. Now, the military is drawn from this 1 . The nation can go to war without the nation really to war. Right. And do you see that as a danger for our our Society Today . I think that if the question is National Service, be a danger no no would in somehow getting more of the population involved in national National Security policy because few serve. Isnt that a danger because it separates the vast majority of our population from important National Security. Questions. Yes, i think thats true. And i think we ought to involve. More people, more americans in in this whole process. Mm hmm. David, youve looked at much more a domestic question. Can you talk about some of your reporting and in particular, the book i mentioned . Well the reason i wrote the book is because the Cultural Impact of the vietnam war. I am a baby boomer. I was born in 1949. I had already written books about Vince Lombardi and bill two completely opposite figures in american history. But both of whom the central years, the 1960s. And that was the defining decade for me as well. And so i in both of those books, one, i start when was writing them. When i got to the sixties, i sort of slowed down and became more obsessed and realized thats why i had write about that decade and chose the vietnam or as the vehicle for that. I was a freshman at the university of wisconsin and in 1967, when the first Violent Police action against students took place in the Commerce Building against when there was a sit down protest against dow chemical company, ironically, and so that was sort of a defining moment for. Me, i was wearing my first blue jean jacket. I was in the edge of the crowd watching that happened. But i decided should start there because 1967 is when everything was still up in the air. You know, it was before you didnt know what was going to happen. It seemed like the culture was every week, you know, like a week would be a year. And so i went to the the morgue at the Washington Post and said what was going on in vietnam that day and found this battle that happened where 60 men were killed, 60 wounded out of 140. And it was just a two paragraph story in the papers, you know, so different from the wars that would follow that. And the only reason it was even a story is because the son of a famous world war two, general terry, was killed in the battle as an allamerican player. Donald hollander, for whom the Holocaust Center at west is named. Anyway, so i, i thought, you know, theres there was terrific literature about the war in vietnam. You know, frankie fitzgerald, so many, you know, as great shining light. But i hadnt seen a and not as much about the Antiwar Movement was norman mailers armies of the night. But thats norman mailer. And it cant be repeated. But i wanted to try to put those two very different worlds together to explore the how, the culture changed because of of those moments. So i juxtaposed the with with the protested vietnam in wisconsin and saw from that changes that reverberate all way through the decades. You know the chancellor at the University William sewell, a great social who had studied the effects of of saturation bombing on tokyo world war two, who the first teach in it against the war in vietnam was the chancellor. When this protest he froze and didnt know how to control the police and he was haunted by that for the rest of his life. A tragic shakespearean figure. On the other side, youd have someone like a young soldier named tom coburn, who is a baby son, because he was so and in the where all everybody was being killed. He was hiding behind a tree and saw one of his comrades ten feet away in the sunlight. And tom knew that if he went to try to help him, he would get killed. And he didnt do it. He couldnt do it if he froze. And that haunted him for the rest his life. By the time i interviewed 35 years later at a reunion in las vegas, i started talking to him and he was holding a glass of water and was shaking. So much was spilling all over the floor. And, you know, its a moment that can never get past no other soldiers would get past it in various. But the ramifications of that, the point is that that wars really never end for who are involved in them in different ways. Thank you very much, elizabeth. Well, where to start . I went to cambodia to cover the war when finished my first year in graduate school. I wrote a book that included frank is one of the three women who paved the way for me. So just being here, im a cultural a culture oddity because thanks to frank and some other women during the vietnam war broke through the barrier and became and were able to cover wars from the battlefields for the first time and forever. Its a fabulous story that has a lot to do with coincidence, but mostly to do with the fact that president johnson refused to declare vietnam a war, which meant the war. The rules for media were suspended. So the medias a bunch, mostly white guys. They they felt like they had the equivalent of a year rail card show to get a commander to to come. And then they could go on the helicopter truck, whatever. Well, incidentally, there is space for women because theres not that barrier wasnt there. And lo and behold, general westmoreland was was inspecting some troops, saw a woman he knew who was the daughter, his wifes tennis partner back in honolulu. And he said, denby, what are you doing here . She said, im covering the war. How long have you been here . A few nights. He goes back to psychoanalysis, going on. Women do not cover the battlefield and the suits of the Defense Department called them down. They came up with a solution, a temporary solution to say, okay women can cover the battlefield just like the and thats history. And from then on, next war, desert storm women went as staff correspondents. And with medium. And so here i am. Im a grateful grateful cultural example. Thats fantastic. And when secretary rumsfeld was making his first trip into kabul early december 2001, he tried to call the Pentagon Press pool, and one of his categories was, women reporters who had children. And of course, they just revolted and everybody flew into kabul with them. But that mindset lasted until june 2000. Right. Thank you. One of the signature cultural elements of a war is the end of the war. When the veterans come home and i know weve talked about this a little bit today, jim, when you and i were chatting on the phone, you mentioned youve spoken to a lot of vets, tried to go back to vietnam and try to understand that that experience. Can you share . Its a great story. There are now several companies you google the most. Some of them run veterans who offer tours to vietnam for veterans specifically and, they go theyll make them as easy, as difficult as you want. But but this started quite early after. The end of the war that people, soldiers wanted to go back and and see vietnam, not see vietnam, but see where they fought. And the hanoi quite sort of suspicious about this sort of had had a Security Officials take the americans around because they thought there doing some spying or something. Later they realized that this was a source of hard currency and they should be encouraged to come back and on. And so various people got involved in giving these veterans. And one of them was a translator for, frankie and me, when we went back to vietnam and halberstam and others named control. And in in danang and mr. Cohn told us this wonderful story. He early in the early days, we would take these groups of veterans and they would say, okay, we just dont want to go to the sun valley. We want to go to hill for 52, which is where we during that battle, this or this month or and so these guys were getting a little bit older these veterans and they were getting little more out of shape and so contra and and the other guys would sometimes sort of cheat a little bit theyd take them to the coast sun valley. But theyd drive to where there was a sort of a slightly less arduous hill. Theyd say, okay, this is your hill, and you can go up this hill. This is where you fought. Well, several years later, when the veterans are even more out of shape and and this is a vietnam humidity heat issue and they to vietnam, except time they had gypsies. And so mr. Cong would these people up to his hill where they he said they fought and theyd say, no, not where we fought. We fought six kilometers that way. Lets go. And this set up a whole system of where strokes, heart attacks for these guys and. Vietnam didnt kill them the first time, but it might the second time, right . So anyway thats thats the best record story. Fantastic. What do you think they were looking for im not a pop psycho democracy closure but they go back on these journeys. What do you think theyre hoping to find . Hoping to see, hoping to learn . Well, i think its a nostalgia thing. I mean, you know know, most people who spent a year in vietnam and and or two and in combat, especially, i mean, those are the most the most impressionable days of their lives. I mean, i still remember where i was in august of 1969. I cant remember anything that happened in the 30 years between after that but i know exactly where i maybe he doesnt mean that they so these you know these are very important milestones in a persons especially if youve been in the war especially even youve seen combat right. David i know you specialize in these conversations. Tell us some of your thoughts. Yeah, well, i did go back to vietnam with clark welch, who was a Company Commander in the battle, survived. It had hit up in the hills of colorado for decades after the war ended because so many of his boys were killed in the battle. And he was afraid that a daughter or wife or mother of one of those would blame him for it, when in fact he had fought valiantly and tried to talk the brass out of walking into that ambush that day. So i went back him and also with Consuelo Allen, who was the daughter of terry allen, who was killed in the battle that the Battalion Commander and clark had had written letters to his wife, lacy, during the war that he gave me all of the letters and several of them. He talked about the beauty of flying over it on a helicopter and seeing the gorgeous and in valleys and that he hoped to go back someday after the war when everything was a piece. And so he thats why he went back with me and also to find the battlefield and we find it and we not only found the but we found the viet cong First Division commander who had fought against that day and had won in the battle. And that day going to the battlefield, which was 44 miles northwest of saigon toward the cambodian border, was the most unforgettable day of my life, because we we drove out there. Kyle horst was my interpreter hes in the audience today. Hes brilliant, vietnam and we we walked about a mile after we all the rutted roads which by the way by the way now are all paved according to kyle found a farmhouse near the battlefield. We were with the military the commander and clerk well, jenkins low. We got into this little farmhouse house. And when vietnam was the farmer and he had fought in that battle any environmental threat recognized him and and noticed that he that he had ten children. And for chet was in charge of population control saigon, and he chewed him out having ten kids. But anyway, then we walked toward the battlefield. Clark well, he had a g. P. S. I had all of the the i knew exactly where where we should be going. And walking toward the battlefield. Unbelievable. Because vietnam being and well, its these two old soldiers who tried to kill each all those decades ago were together, pointing out they were, you. Everything was. They were they just veterans together at that point. And clark welch finally said, if we go 50 yards towards that direction, thats where and he pointed to a trail. Thats where your was killed. Terry allen the commander who had been hiding an aerial when he was killed, you anthills of vietnam could be four or five feet high. We walk through there its a beautiful dappled day. And in early february with trees, with leaves and we get to that spot and theres another anthill and just standing there with clark welch and tread Consuelo Allen and thinking about how time compressed you know into that moment was just the most unforgettable moment of my life at that thats my experience going back with veteran very powerful elizabeth going back well well, i covered the war in cambodia and its memories of extraordinary pain and anguish that i dont think weve discussed quite quite enough to see a country destroyed front of your eyes when youre in your midtwenties it was unforgettable. I went back to washington, worked at the Washington Post i it to me next to him and couldnt forget. So i my going back was to go back to cambodia under pol pot first and last journalists to go there with another journalist richard dudman. So i had the incredibly. Experience and challenge of trying make sense of cambodia when. Youre under the equivalent of house arrest being taken around by the khmer rouge. Two weeks of this i wrote what i didnt see because thats what you do. Thats what i thought i should do because i was not allowed to interview anybody i wanted to. We were taken around as one group and the last day i we were allowed to pol pot. So 2 hours with pol pot, who who already knew that the vietnamese had responded to his border war. And were crossing the border. Keith mentioned it, but this the hard thing get across to the american audience was that the whole story of dominos was standing it was put upside the communists did not invade, not a communist. They invaded each other. So i was there as. The vietnamese were invading cambodia, we heard a lecture, pol pot for 2 hours that he expected naito to come to his rescue because he presumed the war world warsaw pact would come to the rescue of vietnam. This is insane. I mean, khmer rouge land is completely cut off in a way that north korea had never even imagined. Go back last night thrilled were getting out of this insanity and. That night we were attacked by a cambodian. Cambodians and they murdered the professor with us and threatened both me and dudman left the next day and vietnamese were in phnom penh within weeks. And the chinese had invaded vietnam. And we had a reference from that film length. So you had communists against communists, and asean was home free. So that really led to my first book when the war was over because i had to figure out what in the world my country was doing in all of this, as well as explaining cambodia immediately china comes to the fore. This president carter, who was valiant with human rights in many respects, took the advice of. Brzezinski and supported china and which means pol pot. So pol pot was overthrown. The United States, europe and other countries supported pol pot to try take back cambodia because vietnam always, always is wrong. So in i interview brzezinski, who said pol pots an abomination but china can support him, president carter said exactly to me, and he wrote it down on a piece of paper, this is for china. This is all to do that. So this country cambodia finally gets rid of the khmer rouge and they are under extreme restrictions so that no aid could go australia was the only country that went in to help them. And it took the vietnamese finally left. But because of policies on p. O. W. Media was mentioned, the league of families did not want them so. All of a sudden the vietnamese were gone and along the border were the khmer rouge poised take back cambodia in the late 1980s. All of a sudden, secretary james baker said are we fell into a trap and so we finally got a peace treaty in paris. In 92. So thats a hard thing to figure out. Its geopolitical. Its also what was your countrys role . How did how did this loss in vietnam so pervert our sense of whats important that we could overlook the khmer rouge. And so theres much, much more to it the whole history but anyway that that first trip back was an amazing trip back right. I mean it is so important for us to remember the war in vietnam had this incredibly dynamic and damaging second third order effect in the other countries. One of the things thats come up several times, starting with the early panel, with senators hagel and carrying general eaton, is the lessons vietnam for the post911 wars, iraq and afghanistan and talking about veterans. It just to me that you know the symbol of Vietnam Veterans coming back is being spat upon and from vietnam and the veterans coming back from afghanistan are lauded and think most veterans i know, of course, think that neither works because, of course, the ones came back from vietnam were there following lawful orders. They didnt start the war. And those coming back from afghanistan or iraq they were following orders doing the sort of thank for your service rings hollow. So reflecting on these three sets of wars and elizabeth can tell you disagree with me, which i love what should be what should be this nation stance toward returning . Well, first of all, these on veterans is right up there in urban lands. The veterans will rejected by the establishment. You know, when the veterans came back, the American Legion vfw didnt want to have anything do with them. They were called hippies and losers they had to create their own Vietnam Veterans association and they did a brilliant job lobbying for congress. They created their own monument memorial, the great vietnam memorial. And that was so many years, though. No, it wasnt that many years. I mean, that was eighties. But it took a while to raise the money. And but even then, president would not go to the opening because it was not patriotic enough. And only the chairman of the joint, general vessey, who was a real hero in my book, he went and that was the and i bring this up because was the first parade that those veterans had in the eighties. And if you spent time with them, theres some out here. If you spent time with them thats what they talk about the the established the no mirrors had had praise for them, so on and so forth so i think that thats one thing to learn is that they were rejected by the people who sent them. Right but. I guess my point is that just as that rejection wrong, so is this blind and rather superficial . Thank for your service. Not really enough either, david. Well, i think the what really in the most important part of it is that that you have to tell the truth and the government lied about and the soldiers knew they were lying about it. It just in in the small example of of the battle that i write about in the when it happened the government declared it a victory for the United States. Thats the way it was portrayed. They made up a body and a great oral military historian named johnny cash was sent to the battlefield the next day because terry own son had been killed in pentagon, wanted to know what happened. So we interviewed all of the soldiers who survived it. And he discovered that what the government, what the military had done at the time of the battle was say, well, how many dead vietcong did you see . And somebody would say, ten. How many did you see, john . I mean, you see 11. There was the same bodies, but they edited them all up and made it sound like they destroyed the vietcong and. Only cash coming in there to discover the lie which was buried and i found it 40 years later. His reports. So the soldiers in that battle, the ones who survived went to a Evacuation Hospital and it was such a big that westmoreland came to visit them and he he went to a sergeant, first sergeant, and said, what happened . And barrow said well, we were ambushed. And westmoreland said, oh, no, no, you couldnt been ambushed because this is right. A point when westmoreland was trying to raise the troop levels and win the war by battles of attrition and had to made every battle look like a victory. And barrow said, well, i dont know. I mean, you were there. I saw i dont know what it was if it wasnt a an ambush. And so all of soldiers, when i interviewed them decades, whether they went on to support the war and think it was worthwhile or they went on to oppose it and there were men on both sides of that question. All of them said, oh, want is the truth. And i think every soldier wants that. Yeah, every citizen deserves that as well. Jim, what are your thoughts on the sort of pendulum swing in how we treat our veterans . I really cant i really dont know much about this one. One little sort of anecdote that i can sort of offer is that in later years there were i came across a people who werent in vietnam who not soldiers in vietnam who claimed be there was a certain amount of braggadocio about this. They wanted to let people know they were veterans, but they really werent veterans and there were and then and there were some even some reporters that i knew who didnt get to vietnam who who wanted to who thought that this was really something that they missed in their careers that that how could you go through one of the greatest go through the period in which we had this enormous this enormous war that had such an effect on the country and you didnt go and see it and you know i dont know how big was but i do know that it happened and theres a the American Military even today, has a problem with stolen valor for the war. Since 911, people, people claiming the medals are served, places that they didnt. So that thats still problem. Now i wanted it slightly turn the topic a little bit to the notion of a lost war. How is this nation dealt with the loss of war in vietnam and . Of course, there are many constituencies in that the American Military. The average citizen, etc. And how do you think thats to affect the country today having, dare i say it lost, to more wars in iraq and afghanistan . Well, i would say in terms of lost war, it, the i was covering this as a reporter and all of a sudden you couldnt even use the word and the indochina desk in in the state department was known as very lost causes. And thats all very funny. But what it meant turning your back on, the damage we had done and its extraordinary. I mean, i think everybody here knows that vietnam laos and cambodia and we have to say laos several times because they suffered as well the most bombed countries on earth per capita. And i think also by tonnage we never did reparation. I mean, now were doing aid, but the the whole the whole issue keith and others were talking about in terms of of not being able to come to a diplomatic recognition of each other is there had been aside cortisol to the 1973 peace accords that wasnt nailed down the vietnamese thought it promised them reparations and the americans said no. And thats when vietnam invades cambodia, blah, blah, blah goes on. But the result is the people who suffer from agent and from from all the chemicals in those countries, particularly vietnam. Its because we did not want to admit that we had lost and did not want to admit what we had done to them. So thats and i already talked about the effect i think it had on on thing. And then we can go into the diplomatic but that would be a little more boring. But i think its when those of us who go regularly, you just say, i wish we had recognized accepted and gotten to work and we wouldnt have had to wait 20 years to have relations with vietnam. I think the to me, the most dangerous aspect of the lost war idea is that it led to iraq and i could make a direct connection to through my book, which is that in 1967 at the university of wisconsin was a young graduate student, cheney living with lynne cheney in eagle heights, the Student Housing there. And were so i interviewed them both for the book and they were so upset and agitated by the Antiwar Movement that it really affected their entire political perspective and. I just make that direct connection between them watching what was happening in vietnam, then cheney being determined that that not be repeated. A war, not be lost again, and thinking that, ignoring all of the other aspects of that, and thinking that you know through shock and awe and everything, they could just easily make sure that this war was won and falling. That same trap right from vietnam to iraq in direct connection. When you heard those debates two years ago with the fall of afghanistan and withdraw from iraq, that oh, we should have stayed the course. We could have done more. Lets lets invade both countries a third time. So that narrative holds. Jim, i know this is a topic thats very near and dear to you, which is did the American Media lose the war in vietnam . Well, thats part of it. But a lot of the military said but i my view is that is is is is twofold number when i was there 69 and 70, there were more than 400, almost 500 reporters registered with mccaffrey. In other you could you get a press card and you could travel on helicopters. You could go wherever you wanted so on and and but most of those were sort of tied down in saigon. Why were they tied down in saigon . Because if you were a single reporter for a newspaper or a radio or some some anyway, your editor who had spent a lot of money get you there, wanted you to file a lot of copy and you couldnt Wander Around vietnam and and file two stories a week or. You you had to sort of stay where you could get a story every day or every other day and where was that was going to the 5 00 follies, the 5 00 follies, the and the american and the vietnamese handed out sheets of what happened. What they said happened during the war in the 24 hours, what units were doing and so on and you could put that together and could pleasure editor back home and file five or 600 words for for him to do so there was there werent a lot of reporters, though there were hundreds of reporters accredited there werent all that out in the field looking for the New York Times had four reporters when i was there. So we had the luxury of being able to let people go out, spend time doing stories. And we one of the interesting things and i think that was a pretty good strategy for the military they kept a lot of people tied in saigon and. So all whats really what was really to me is that several of the really good from the village are not good but big stories from the vietnam war, the my lai massacre, the green beret double agent murder case, which happened. I was there, the secret bombing of cambodia, all those stories these were found out by people outside of vietnam, people the United States and and so and so the pentagon did a did a i thought a pretty good job in retrospect of some of and in fact, somebody did a study of cbs news. We all morley safer his report about the marines the with the zippo lighters lighting the hookers and the village but a study of cbs coverage for a certain i think a one or two or three year period found that Something Like 85 to 90 of their coverage was quote positive for the for the military. It wasnt it wasnt negative or supposedly negative and that in effect. I think most of the story, even the stories i wrote a lot of stories about vietnam ization and i would quote people say how, you know, this is really working. This is to turn the tide. Were going teach these guys how to do and were going to support them. And this is really doesnt work. But after war, the American Military decided that the press could just Wander Around. Willy nilly and find stuff out on their own. And so that for the gulf war, the first gulf war, Norman Schwarzkopfs navy assistant wrote a on press coverage for that called annex foxtrot. And what it said was that thou shall not allow to Wander Around. They should escorted at all times and and this reminded me a story that we used to tell the vietnam when when occasionally there would be escorts leading going out with american reporters. And the story goes Something Like this. The reporter. But the escort in back of him goes up to the sergeant and says, okay, sarge, what happened . And the search says, well, we saw those little less old bs. We heard them coming down the trail. And so we all got ready. And when they were in the right position, we blew our claim orders and we put our f16s rock and roll. We just blew those away. You should have seen the arms and legs fly. It was really something. What the escort then says is what the sergeant means to say is that this unit engaged gauged an unknown size force with their organic with unknown result classic doublespeak. But to me its sort of the central canard of that accurate, honest news reporting either wins or loses wars. Thats not what it is. I remember in 2005 when iraq was really swirling down the toilet a of the officers with whom i embedded would say, shankar, whats wrong with you . What cant you write . You know good stories about what were doing . And then after the surge in 2006, which was really well and very effective and they did the war around the same officer. Well, we see youve come along, youre writing good stories. Now, i would say, sir, youre doing good missions. Thats a difference. You do good missions, you get good stories. You do bad missions, you get bad stories. The implication of that comment. The press could lose a war is that you dont want the public to know whats going on. And thats it means and thats essentially what what the government tried to in future wars. You know i mean from the iraq war even not letting the press see the bodies coming back to dover air base. Right. Right. I mean, in every possible way, they tried to control what the public could see. Right. So are the lessons for military Media Relations the thought that i opened this panel with, ive often thought that the relationship between the military and the media is like a marriage. Its a dysfunctional marriage. But we Stay Together for the kids right. I mean, we sort of have to because the media has a first crucial role in democracy and the military of course is, you know, raised by congress and commanded by the president. So how can these two sides serve our nations interests always in an adversarial situation . Elizabeth, youve been so deep in this. What are your thoughts . I its hard to to everything sounds like a cliche, but its mostly very important now, after donald trump was our president and called the press the enemy and that pervades through pervaded through his administration and sure, theres still people who very much picked up on it and preferred to believe it. So its not simply military media. We now have a significant Political Group within, the republican party, that does view the press as the enemy. So i would just expand it. Its its its so frightening be for journalism right now. And obviously everybody covering the pentagon i think the relations seem to okay but im worried im passing the buck. But im really worried about what is going on in of politicians trying to use the media not just for scapegoat a war, but scapegoat in our current country. I would add to that that that because of the way that that the Trump Administration and others have politicized that question that the military is actually more progressive and more open than the government in many of those ways. Mm interesting. Jim any thoughts . I just remember the green beret murder case happened and, and and we got a cable somebody in washington that said theres a guy Tommy Middleton, theres been thrown into the long been jail according to a lawyer in South Carolina could you please look into and let us know and and so i called you sorry the army. Yeah long been black. And i said, why is Tommy Middleton in the long in jail . And they said, well get back to you. And the next morning, in the morning, the press release that turned it out, it it said at the bottom the following seven individuals are being held in the long been jail and they and they they gave their ranks and but didnt say what units or colonel thomas b were all major thomas c middleton also and took us about 10 minutes to figure out this was the whole command structure of the fifth special forces and you call them up and you say what in the world is going on and there answer is we cant, sorry, we cant com on comment on this until the the conclusion of an 32 investigation hang the phone and ive got this little switch or i did have in this right over here that said theyve got a great story and theyre not going to tell me what it is and a lot reporters including bob kaiser who got on an airplane flew to the train and by the end of a month or two, we knew more about special forces operations, the border in cambodia and, all sorts of other places than than we would have had they just been honest with us and said, heres happened when abrams got really ticked off at colonel ro because he lied to them and but but i mean, just a little give take would have solved the problem, that case, right . Because were on a College Campus and i see some College Students here. Why dont you reflect on the cultural lessons of the anti war protests and what students today might might learn from them as far as black lives matter environmental campaigns, other things because there is a sense of really sincere and smart activism among College Students today. They dont think about the vietnam war very much. Theres kind of a benign because its so long ago. But if you were to talk to some College Students as you have a chance to today, what would you tell them that they should think about as they choose a life of political and activism . Its deja vu all over again. A woman i have been out there with my placard since roe v wade was overturned, meaning young women who age in background ground and. One once said posted recently, i wished the womens magazines had been talking how to protect my my reproductive rights rather than how to lose 10 pounds. Its as if theres this there was a gap in just understanding what is a right, what has to be done to protect it and just how deep those rights loss would feel so on womens life black lives matter civil rights its it seems like were through another and just like before or theres going to be serious pushback. The pushback here is of a different order and i think the one to let them know that there were victories before there can be victories again, understand your rights and and exercise them, but its formidable. Formidable. Thank you, david. Well, i teach students at university every other year, and i find those Young Students today incredibly and totally committed. I think that that every movement is a combination of idealism and selfinterest. And thats a difference in the antiwar of modern times, is that theres no draft, you know, in the period of the late 1960s, every young man there, peer, their girlfriends were all by what do you do . Do you do you enlist . Do you try go to canada, you go to prison. You know what choices do that. And that constantly fueled the thinking and Antiwar Movement. Whats there became an all volunteer army that but other movements the Womens Movement and the and the black lives Matter Movement are both motivated by idealism, selfinterest. And thats why those are so much more powerful right now. Thank you, jim. The only point that i can add to what david said, is that as you you sort of sense in talks with the younger people about, climate change, you you, you geezers did this to us. Weve got to pay the price. Weve got us. And youre not solving the problem. Give you permission to laugh at us geezers. Okay. Thats anyway, thats thats my point, right . Thats a great you know, its interesting. Youre talking about youre all three of you are journalists and authors. And theres Incredible Library and its interesting to me, the officers who went off to iraq usually were reading halberstams the best and the brightest and h. R. Mcmaster, dereliction duty, brad graham of politics and prose has a terrific table of books out there. But but if you were recommending students that every military officer, if you could recommend books that every military officer should read excluding your own, what would they be . Elizabeth well, im in a book, a great book, david. I would say maybe the sorrow of. Yeah, i do. Yeah, yeah. The the the well, the vietnam book was my wifes fire in the lake. Theres a wonderful article if you can get it on, you can find it by major dan schuster who was a west point instructor who who, who wrote a piece about how the current military leadership petraeus mcmaster jim mattis even have on shelves the wrong books about vietnam and theyre falling two categories the bomb hanoi to the parking lot invade the north a kind of more better bigger stronger. And then the second group lewis sorley and so on the hearts and minds group. If we had just done more of that a one war in any case, way to wed have won the war not, that this was a colonial struggle that had we still stayed there, wed still be there, and wed still not winning the war. Thank you. Okay, so im trying to remember the one that before i ever wrote and the book that really it to me and i think would be good is all quiet on the western front and then as a pentagon reporter i discovered through my husband that the militarys favorite was once an eagle, which is a vietnam book. And i recommend that to you all because it ends up being an antiwar war book. And i tell you the the chairman of the joint chiefs commander of the marines, i cant remember all of them they said they picked up the phone for me, which they never did on the first ring and said, oh, whats an eagle . And we recommend it to all of the you know, graduating this and etc. , etc. So that was the big surprise. Once an eagle. Right. Thank you. The one, please, david. You know, i was i was not a soldier so but i but i studied enough to know that that when youre an individual soldier in a battle, everything is chaos. And the best description, chaos in a battle i ever read was in the charterhouse of palm oil, which really amazing right in the few minutes. Really, i have a big question and then a small question and the big question is about the wounds that are less seen and less less visible. I know that agent orange, one of the big veterans, heartfelt, tragic from afghanistan and iraq, have traumatic brain injuries. You have burn pit problems. How do you assess how this country has dealt with veterans and has the country learned anything from Vietnam Veterans experience that might or might not help care and treatment for todays veterans veterans . I dont know. Okay. I dont know. David i think it was a long, hard fight to get even any recognition of the damage. Agent orange on both the vietnamese, which was most extent of and on the american soldiers i know that of the of the many soldiers in the black alliance battalion that i dealt with so many of them in the last 8 to 5 years have died of Bladder Cancer and almost all of them that to the fact that they were fighting in zone that was heavily differentiated. And so thats still right. This is this is a wound thats not for veterans. But can i mention it . Well, of course. Can the collateral the what it meant for the United States to be supporting a war and then fighting a war from the midfifties through 1975 had a direct effect on the neighboring countries and in particular the country that i follow the most. Cambodia, it was never evident that there would be a civil war in cambodia when president johnson was on the verge of signing peace treaty in 1968. But we had the the the nixon go around. If that you could you could make a strong argument that if that had signed, sihanouk would still be the head of that government. There would not have been an insurgency insurgency because sihanouk made a deal with the communists not support the khmer rouge. So its still i still wake up in the middle of the night saying, why did we keep fighting . Because one of the big Collateral Damage is cambodia and the khmer rouge. And thats a wound that hasnt healed. Right . And i dont what it will take. But but just to be cognizant that those wars have consequence and you have to be completely aware of right. And thats a little i mean, if i could abuse the authority of the chair just to offer an answer to my own question, to me, it comes down not just to national will or the money in congress, but leadership. Donald rumsfeld famously was speaking to troops about to cross the berm into iraq who were complaining they didnt have Armored Vehicles and they were, you know, scavenging steel to nailed to the side of their humvees. They called it hillbilly. And rumsfeld said, you go to war with the army, you have not the army you might want or might have. And while that may be a fact, thats not what you say to troops that you are sending into harms way, you say, ill do everything i can to get you what you need. He was replaced by robert m gates who signature initiatives were spending billions of dollars on up Armored Vehicles to protect those lives and putting helicopters more into the war zone to guarantee the golden hour between wound and definitive care. Such an example of where a single leader can. Change how we treat our soldiers and our veterans. Last question for the three of you before we take a brief break and move on to our final outstanding panel. You know, i spent most of my adult life in combat zones covering frontline war. And what ive learned, they dont teach you in Journalism Schools that if you go off to cover a war, the war covers you. And you can never really scrub it off. And so whether you were covering the war there or here at home, david id like for the three of you to reflect for just a moment how these experiences have changed you as a person and changed you as a journalist, a writer. Well, youre right. I did not participate or cover the war, but writing book was the most powerful psychological thing that happened in my life. And because the soldiers invested a lot of their trust in me to tell the truth about what happened and i became one of them, you know, an honorary black lion of all of their psychological traumas were visited upon me. I mean, i was trying to deal with them. And my wife would talk to them as well. And so that lasts for the rest of my life. And to, you know, i mean, ive lost several them in the last few years, but but the the bond of that and to understand what they went through and to carry that affected me deeply. Jim, i remember out in the field and hanging out with some grunts and and and and they would sort of look me over when i first got there and then wed sort of become talkative and so on and theyd say, well, what are you doing here . And said, oh, im a reporter. Well. You mean youre, youre, youre here for your reporting. The war, right . Somebody told you you had to do it is a no. Im here to do it because i want to do. You mean you dont have to be . And they knew i nuts because i mean, they, they i could get it on a chopper and be back in saigon in an hour. So and i remember during the invasion of cambodia happened, i was at the battle of snore. There was a 11 day c. R. Colonel wounded. I got on a chopper, a medevac back to quinlan, got a c47 charter back to saigon, wrote my story, gave my film to horse fighters, took a shower, got it. I was having a a grilled buffalo water buffalo steak and a good bottle of wine at a french restaurant by seventh 30. Right. Thats how thats how lucky and easy we had it compared to what the guys who couldnt get out of the field, elizabeth, in the last minute. Your thoughts . Well, its for me and for a lot of us its its its the deepest coming of age. You could when you youre around. Everything matters every you cant turn the corner that is not part of a story. Ive never ive never. Everything was part of the story. And every time i thought, okay, this is the last time im going back. Is it im in the middle of another project or two with cambodia and its never ending. Of course, it had its beyond deep. Its beyond. And the funniest thing was when my not that long, my daughter said shes the mother. And she said, mom, it took me forever to realize that. The other kids werent raised thinking. That its really scary to. Be around the khmer rouge and i had no idea that my son once said, thats my pops idea of a great summer vacation. Auschwitz. The only time for more formal thanks later but incredible thanks to the panel. Thanks to all you for being here. Special thanks for me to the Carnegie Corporation in new york that makes so much of this work possible. Thank you all for being here