I thoroughly enjoyed it and im really looking forward to our conversation today. Thank you. Its really so to be here with you. Yeah. Would love to start by just simply asking about the Research Project itself. You know, being a i was just fascinated by all the different kinds of things you were looking at from the official records housed in the National Archives, newspapers, census records, family photographs, all of it, and it sounded like, from the way you describe the process, you basically been researching this Family History for a very long time. So maybe you could start by taking us back to when you start first. Think about writing a family or researching your Family History and what brought you there. Sure. Absolutely. Thank you. And i just want to say that mott is about the impact of the exclusion act laws on four generations of my famy in new yorks chinatown. As we landed out in the American West then did a reverse migration across country before eventually landing in the same tenement apartment in the heart of new york city on mott street. And it really is about my journey to understand my family and then how uncovered so much more so. Youre absolutely right that this book goes back so far in terms of my own genesis as a young person growing as a fifth generation chineseamerican icon in new york, i was estranged from my father, raised by a single mom. So i didnt know my dads side, the family, and yet i. I did know that i was a descendant and, a proud descendant of a chinese worker. And a lot of the stories that i heard growing. They were not reflected in the history books that i read or the lessons that i was taught when i was in school and part of the impetus this book was really to try rectify, you know, the familys stories with what was learning. So to get back to your question about the research, i would say that. So the short answer that i started researching this book from 15 onwards like that from 2015 onwards, it was sole project, but actuality. Ive been collecting these stories ever since i was a child. And one of the first stories i ever heard was about my great, great grandfather who worked on the nations first transcontinental railroad, which united the after the civil war. So, so, so there those oral stories that i heard that were so to me as young person and but then there was the research to answer your Research Question it was the research that happened as an adults we can kind of take this in several stages because i know that some of the research that i did happens in the nineties in a local archive in new york which had its genesis as, the chinatown history project then became the chinatown History Museum. And back in the when i discovered that my chin grandfather, who i did not know growing up because i was estranged from that side of the family, i knew from his obituary that he had an oral history at the museum and all the way back then i was in search of that oral history. I did not get my hands on that oral history until some something years later. But i, i can say i would love to give a shout out to all of the many people who are working in local, particularly archives is for marginalized communities where larger museums are not saving these important archives of individuals who are important to stories. Tell if if those young historians did not do that work back then i dont think i could have done, you know, significant sections of this book. So its a shout out to those folks and. I know that you as well used to work at that museum. Am i correct . Professor liu . Yes, yeah. That was the amazing piece of this was that when i picked up the book and saw mott street as the title i had a feeling i wod be familiar. Much of what you were talking about. But i didnt i didnt realize familiar i would be and the oral history you talk about with your grandfather long chin or chin as we knew him back then it was something that i actually did encounter when i was in museum back then. So yeah, when i started from 1982, about sorry, 1989 till about early 1990s, maybe we were the new york chinatown project. And as you said, we became the chinatown History Museum for a minute, and now its now known the museum of chinese in the americas. Yeah, but thats yeah, thats an incredible intersection of and stories and research which i think thats what a lot of your book is about, is these incredible intersections that until dig into them you dont realize theyre happening and youre having us you know, crisscross across the country as much as staying on mott street in terms of this history. So just to get back to some of the Amazing Things that youre telling us. So which grandfather is it that you knew had a history that went back the transcontinental. So this through my grandpa gene gene wong, who was the amazing in our family who cooked up amazing meals for us and he told me stories about our railroad ancestor the was so important to our family not just because the work that was accomplished helped you know bridge divide between east and west so that you know from coast to coast the country was united physically but within our own family there was so much pride about the fact that my great great grandfather had worked on and labored and the labor was so intense. Right . So many men died. So many chinese men up their lives. Right. To complete this railroad. And you know, my great grandfather survived. And there so much pride in story that he taught his grandson my grandfather, his first words in english, which were the names of the transcontinental railroad. So so so those some of the first family stories that i ever heard and i found them nothing short of inspiring in my research. I did go back to the to where the railroad was completed in promontory, utah. I also went to boise, idaho, where my railroad working ancestor ended up living for almost 30 years in period in time in which the population of idaho was almost 30 chinese is. So, you know, uncovering these stories was was so personally moving for but it also spoke to something larger that was happening in the u. S. At the time that sparked my imagination but also made me realize was that there was a great big gaping hole in terms of the history that i was taught. And if i wasnt taught this history as a young child, i might have really known about it if i was just going about my business being a student. Yes. And one of the things that i think is so powerful in the book is that this is not a straightforward narrative about your family its is just as much about you uncovering that history and the ways in there are surprises along the way some of it very inspiring in terms of your ancestors whoe g to meet and spend time with but some heartbreaking and difficult pieces of history to read about. Do you want to Say Something about that what what was it like to go through these histories where youre reading much about the antichinese movement, whether it was political rallies or violence. Versus, you know, finding moments of your ancestors in the archives and and really celebrating their longevity, their survival. Well, theyre thriving, you know. So i wanted to hear a little bit about that. Sure. So, you know this was not the easiest book to research some of the to back to your question about research, there were times in which i had to i crisscrossed my way across the country to local National Archives offices. There are there are chinese exclusion act files on all of them different members of my family during that period i should also maybe go back and maybe qualify you know the chinese exclusion act laws started in the in 19th century in the 1882 and it lasted for over 60 years and only ended off the books during World War Two, when u. S. Entered World War Two. And we needed china an ally. So as a really long period of time that were talking about. So there were files on all of the members who came in and so i should also that chinese exclusion was the first major federal immigration and restriction that effectively shut the borders for the very first time against any particular it halted our Legal Immigration into this country and blocked a pathway towards our citizenship for over 60 years. It was also important because it set the tone for future immigration restrictions Going Forward so that by 1924 there was a ban on nearly all asians from coming over and restrictions against southern and eastern europeans as well. All right so during this period in time there, are these files on all of my family members. And so i go, you know, from for the last years, i was like going off and trying find individual files on of the members. And some people had across, you know three different in three different cities across the country. So it was a it was a it was a bit of a detective hunt to try to to all of these. But what i really rise very quickly is a lot of the files were up here kind of fiction, right . They were fiction because the immigration restriction were so stringent that, they became a kind of it became for folks in order try to get in to a kind of story about their own identity. Right. Claiming that they were or, you know, somebody elses so and so, son or soandsos brother and so, you know, these files, uncovering them and, then covering my grandfathers file, grandpa, the descendants of the railroad and realizing that it was such a fiction. The only thing was that was was the town in which. He was born it and it led me to realize that in fact you know writers and historians were trained to see the official documents and the official history things that are written down on paper as having a greater importance than the familys stories. But what i soon realized is when it comes to chinese exclusion, its the familys stories that hold the keys to the truth. And the official that are kind of fiction that you have to kind of read against the grain for. And so process of working on this book was, was like just like dealing with three different intersections of dealing with the familys stories, looking at the official documents, the english language newspapers, the period and own, trying to come up with my best, my best guess of what really actually happened, what was the actual truth as my family members knew it. Yeah, thats something that is very, very difficult to do using the kinds of sources youre using especially it sounds like from what i saw the majority the sources are english sources and many of them are that these official state documented sources that youre describing like like immigration records, Border Crossing records certificate, citizens residency certificates, etc. That are that are produced for a purpose, but not necessarily more about surveillance tracking for the state than it is necessarily about telling any kind of truth about a persons life. And so its difficult to use those kinds of sources and newspapers are certainly not much better, right when were dealing with 19th century newspapers. Thats right. Thats right. Quite sensationalist. Yes, yes, yes that reflects the the the discriminatory viewpoints of the day. Right. I will say that for my my chinese language sources, i went back to our villages and i was able to get the genealogy documents. There were genealogies. On three of them that major families that i was researching and so, so i used those what was great about those is that they not just had names sometimes dates, years of, birth and years of death, but sometimes i was lucky and they had narratives that came them. So narratives about different family members, narratives that i later learned inspired my family members who were here. So i was able to write, use that with i did use some chinese sources when i was so. So in 2017, in a1a fulbright to china. And so i took my whole family with me and we lived there and thats where i did the bulk of the research. And so i did use some i went to the national, i went to the the local there in our region and was able to sort of Call Information for that. But youre absolutely right that, the majority of the actual documents themselves for this book really were english language sources, you know, census, you know, i used you know a couple of different history scenes and journalists wrote accounts of things that happened in early chinatown of my period include. Reading your book was a great source for me, so thank you for that i can officially thank you on television for for doing that so thank you and and and yes. So a large part of it was english sources. But the chinese language sources as well. And of course all of the oral histories and the myriad numerous interviews i did with family members, as well as folks who or former residents mott street and former residents of chinatown and so i do want us to talk more about that. As much as i love talking about the research. And i just cant help it as historian in me. But you have you have such amazing family stories and just would love to talk a little bit about those and in particular youre youre really tracing out three. I think its three. Is it you have the chickens you the wongs and that family the ng doesnt theyre really ngs. Yes yes. Yeah yeah. So youve the three families going and i just wanted to have you talk through what was like, you know, unraveling and then trying to put together the narratives of. These three different families and just say a little bit about who the three of three families are, were and are. Sure. So the three families that im dealing are my paternal chin side as well as my maternal side, my maternal grandmothers family, the ang family, my my mothers family, her fathers family, the wang family and what was so interesting about working on this project was that because i am fifth generation chineseamerican, there were four, and my family goes back to the mid19th century. Any any major of things that impact did Chinese Americans from the mid19th to today i was able to write about these historic and historic sociopolitical events that impacted the community through the lens of various family members just because weve been here for so long so i felt like i was really fortunate. Now the downside, of course, is that i had a ton a cast of characters to deal with. Right. And so many people i found completely fascinating. So is the Railroad Worker, the grandson of the Railroad Worker on the wong side, ive got my my angst side. Right. And duk foon right. Who was the first person who came over for . My grandmothers side of the family enters country just two or three years after the chinese exclusion act is in full effect. He flees the west coast during a period of very intense heightened antichinese right lands in new york city you know finds this burgeoning chinatown town this thriving chinatown that really came about not just for because of language and cultural ties. Right but but chinatowns across the country became a place of refuge for Chinese People dealing with the weight and scrutiny of the chinese exclusion act laws. So dec foon does this amazing Civic Engagement where hes working with other Chinese Americans to fight and to to speak out against the chinese exclusion act laws and their continuation. He ends up marrying a white woman and elva who you know, only couple of years after they get married the government and elvis citizenship, because theres a period in time in which the government thought believe that a womans citizenship should change, to reflect that of her husbands so only a couple of years after getting married to our uncle dag and elva, who was born in new jersey, who was the daughter of a civil war veteran, becomes, in the eyes of the law a chinese. Then i had family members who came in during the period in time in which angel island had just been created. Angel island sometimes is called the ellis island of the west coast, but it is in fact a Detention Center. And so my great grandmother. Yes, very different. And so my great grandmother when she arrives, she is heavily pregnant. She has to into this Detention Center that is, you know, shes separated from her husband and the Detention Center, segregated right. So so it broke my heart when i realized that the chief medical examiner of the state was an ardent eugenicist. And he believed that the betterment of the race was best employed. Eugenics was best employed at the border. So my great grandmother had to endure human alienating physical examination while she was in her third trimester. Mm. I love the description you have of the photo that you have of her coming through angel island and its like this is not a happy womans picture. Shes got this sort of murderous glare in her and i couldnt agree more. Yeah, yeah absolutely. I mean, imagine being at sea close to a month in, your third trimester, youre seasick and youre nauseous only to enter a facility that youre not sure when youre going to get of and only Chinese People really to deal with this because of the chinese exclusion act laws and was in a relatively privileged position by being the wife of a merchant who had papers right. Luckily they were not kept in detention and for more than about a week and a half, but still not knowing when youre going to be let go is very. And there were other people whose files i found who were also pregnant, who were there at the time, who spent a lot more on angel island. So, i mean, it was a it was a very difficult time for chinese trying to come into america. Yeah. So how did you end up deciding on the people to focus on as you described and by the way your family tree was very helpful because there were there were moments where i would get little bit lost because theres so many fascinating family members that were following you get completely absorbed in their life story as youre narrating them so beautifully that when we moved to another person, sometimes it takes a moment to, you know, recalibrate and figure out which of the tree and then you can sort of you can definitely see theres so many other people on the tree. You dont focus. So so yeah. How did you go about selecting you and are there any family members if you had the opportunity to write a bigger book, would you put them back . Yeah. So i mean, its a great question because theres this huge of characters, so many people were so fascinating to me. Right. But i knew that the frame of this book was incredibly importt,ight . That the fra