Coronavirus the postponement of the plan Olympic Games. Were bringing you a conversation about the 1936 olympics held in nazi berlin. There are so many compelling stories from this moment in history ranging from the personal experience of athletes to the german governments campaign to camouflage its discriminatory policies. Please join me in welcoming todays guests. First dr. Damien thomas, who is the sports curator at the National Museum of africanamerican history and culture. Hi, damian, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Im excited to participate in this conversation. Glad to have you on and maybe sometime well actually meet in person instead of just through a box on the screen. Our other guest is my former colleague dr. Daniel green. Danny is president of the Newberry Library in chicago, and he also served as curator of the holocaust museums Current Special exhibition americans and the holocaust danny also conducted research for an earlier exhibition about the 1936 olympics here at our museum in dc. And so were glad to bring him back to share some of that knowledge. Hi danny i had no. Thanks. How are things in chicago . Things are all right. As much as anywhere. We ask you our viewers to please post your questions for our experts in the Comment Section and well get to as many of them live in the course of the show as we are able. Also if you experience any technical glitches during the course of the show, dont worry about it. Dont stress it will be available to view on demand immediately after we conclude. So, how did germany come to host the olympics in 1936 it actually predates the nazi era in 1931. Germany was awarded the right to host the 1936 Olympic Games, which was a very powerful signal it signaled its returned to Good Standing in the International Community following the first world war. In 1933 nazi party leader. Adolf hitler was appointed chancellor and his government quickly transformed germanys fragile democracy into a dictatorship that persecuted and thousands of others based on a racist ideology in which socalled aryans were superior. Leaders and average people here in the United States were becoming increasingly alarmed at germanys turn toward a Violent Police state and this made them wary of competing in the berlin games. So against this backdrop, id like to start with you damien. Can you tell us a little bit about the debate over whether the United States should participate in the berlin games . I think youre absolutely right that this became a serious point of contention americans from the international. Excuse me, the American Olympic committee the amateur Athletic Union debated this and they debated it vigorously even taking trips to germany to to see things for themselves every brundage who was one of the leading figures in American Sports was a Little Cypress supporter of the ideas of american participation in a very close vote the american delegation decided to continue to support the olympics and and to participate and it wasnt just sports organizations who were weighing in this debate. I know jewish organizations the naacp then National Association for the advancement of colored people many people and many groups. Saw the symbolism there, right . Definitely i think i think there was it was widely debated and discussed and the naacp certainly had strong feelings about about this issue. As i understand it, they initially supported a boycott of participating but once it was decided that they would send a delegation they were supportive of the athletes. Is that right . Thats true. So danny, lets put a little more of a personal face on this because this isnt just about abstract boards or organizations making a stand but its about athletes Young Athletes many of whom have trained their entire lives for this this moment. Could you share a couple of these stories, please . Sure absolutely and you know many of them were in college at the time they were they were College Students and many College President s had actually come out and supported a boycott of the games as well in 1935 one athletes story who stands out as a hurdler at named milton green. He was a senior at harvard at the time here. You see milton Green Running the 110 meter high hurdles and he had times in the race that would have qualified him for the olympics and along with a harvard teammate another jewish athlete named Norman Connors green and cant hear you. See green and connors. They meet with greens family rabbi a man named harry levy. And at Temple Israel in boston and the rabbi talks to these two young men and says, you know, it would send a real strong message about fair play and about standing up to discrimination if you boycott the games and so milton green and Norman Connors do boycott the games. Theyre two of the only american athletes who decide that they that theyre gonna boycott the games at the time and its its thats a big ask of a Young College athlete whos been training for something for their whole lives right to say im going to sit this one out and you have to think about in 1936. What did americans know about what was going on in nazi germany green and connors certainly knew that there was persecution of and discrimination against , but of course they lived in a society in the United States with discrimination against , and of course discrimination against africanamerican as well in in jim crow america. So they they make the courageous decision to to stand up and boycott the games. And despite the intensity of that personal sacrifice and for sure the really wrenching disappointment. They must have felt they didnt they didnt talk publicly about this decision. Did they it was really just kind of a personal thing. Thats right. Thats right. I know they dont they dont speak out about the games once they decide not to not to participate. I want to wish a good morning or a good afternoon depending on where you are to visitors to sorry viewers who are watching i use museums speak all the time visitors someday. We will have visitors in our buildings again, but to viewers who are watching from around the world. Thank you for joining us from greensboro, north carolina. Good morning to you in new jersey in boynton beach, florida, harrisburg, pennsylvania, San Francisco and internationally. Were glad to have you with us watching from sao paulo brazil cairo egypt. Good morning to you in el salvador, peru and in stockholm in sweden. Again, ill ask you to please post your questions in the comments section. So that damian and danny can answer them. So damian dannys given us a sense of how it played out for a couple of College Students who could relate on a very personal level as. How did africanamerican athletes grapple with the question of whether to compete or boycott . Was a difficult question because for africanamericans the olympics and sports had been a primary vehicle through which africanamerican said sought to fight against Racial Discrimination by by embodying the ideas of the amateur athlete they saw themselves as challenging notions race and racial oppression. Some of the more also concerned about whether they would face discrimination in germany, and so they they had legitimate concerns and worries, but ultimately many of them saw this as an opportunity to compete at the highest levels of the sport and then to use their success as a way to speak to africanamericans ability because at the time in america, there was the notion that intellectual capacity and athletic ability when hand in hand and it was sort of epitomized in the phrase healthy mind healthy body and so africanamericans use sports to say look at what we can do when were giving a chance to compete on equal terms and so for africanamericans theyre sporting success had much wider meaning and because of the oppression that that they faced in the United States they saw this as their their me to go represent the best of america the best black america at the Olympic Games. And to recognize the experience of black americans was not the same as of other americans. I mean, im acutely aware waking up this morning seeing the news from kenosha. This is not a topic or a struggle that is entirely in the past and thinking about that these athletes in 1935 36 are experiencing pervasive and even legalized discrimination at home and yet theyre going to go and represent represent their country. I also wanted to ask you damien had africanamerican athletes represented the us at games in the past or was this something new . Africanamericans had been involved in the Olympic Games since the the beginning of the modern olympics the first africanamerican to win a medal was at the 1904 Olympic Games. And so there had been a long history of africanamericans being involved. But 1936 was was special because this was a year where we had a Critical Mass where there were 18 africanamerican who who competed in the game. So this was a a watershed moment in many ways. Right an extremely visible in a way that had not been before. And in fact in the end 49 nations the largest contingent ever sent teams to berlin, which the nazis were thrilled about it really legitimized their place not only in the eyes of the world but also for domestic consumption to their population at home to say look we are respected. We are included. So danny in that vein the germans knew that the world was watching. How did they prepare for the International Attention at the olympics would bring to their to their city into their nation . The germans had a chance to show off during the games in in 1936. Its also its a return for germany back into the community of nations after world war i as well, right, which is only, you know, not even 20 years in the rear view mirror in 1936 one of the things that germany does to prepare for the games as they hide overt science of discrimination. So there had been antijewish signs posted publicly persecution of publicly. All those signs are removed from berlin for two weeks in august in 1936. There are roma living in the in the streets in berlin who are rounded up by nazi germany and removed to a concentration camp outside of berlin, so that visitors dont see over sign signs of discrimination against aroma or others, and then theres just such a great deal of pageantry at the games. I think were gonna see some video of that now, you see nazi flags everywhere here hanging on the Brandenburg Gate nazi flags the the germans. In state the torch relay run that we know so well, so this torch relay run begins in athens and ends in berlin. So what are the germans communicating there that they are the literal inheritors of greek civilization right in germany is the new is the new grease the center of civilization here you see hitler walking into the stadium at the beginning of the games in august of 1936. So this the germans bring a lot of pomp and a lot of pageantry to the games and a lot of what they bring is still with us today when we when we watch the Olympic Games every every fourth year, but they communicate to the world that they are back in the community of nations that they are one of the most advanced nations and they cast doubt even some can journalists and other International Journalists who go over there report that they dont see signs of overt discrimination, even though we had been hearing about that for three years that the nazis had been in power already. So this sanitized version of nazi germany, it actually dupes a lot of people or at least its given a spotlight. I think we had one more image. I just want to mention and its something that ive studied and written about the torch, you know, its not just theatrical. It also adds a kind of false evidence to the idea that the aryan myth that they are some kind of ancient people rooted in an older culture. This is a way of amplifying that quite quite vividly and in person thats right and to see the nazi flags on that brandenburg gave photo the nazi flags the next to the olympic flags. Stand for fair play and internationalism, and of course, thats not at all what naziism stands for but theyre theyre able to to mesh those ideals in august or at least to to dupe visitors as weve said so damian the symbolism of these games and its particularly fraught was also quite quite strong and vivid for africanamerican. We havent editorial cartoon that id like us to take a look at and if you could please unpack it for our viewers who may not understand all the symbols in it. What are we looking at here . This was an editorial cartoon, which was featured in the pittsburgh courier, which was the leading africanamerican newspaper at the time an incredibly why circulation it was said that for every paper that they sold seven people ready and so they were able to to sort of share this message this idea of africanamericans the 18 africanamerican who participate in the games sort of representing america represent an american ideals and being champions not just american athletic us and success but also representing africanamericans as leading citizens in in the us certainly the embodiment of these amateur ideals of of gentlemanly and lady like ability. So these this group of 18 known as the black eagles and their names are listed here on these banners or placards that theyre holding to tell us a couple of stories of them. Who were they whered they come from . And how did they perform in berlin . Certainly the most famous of this group is is just the owens jesse owens who won four medals became one of the most recognizable and important africanamerican symbols of success and accomplishment this image that we see of jesse owens right now. Its really important because we have memorialized this moment in the National Museum and we have a statue of jesse owens that that is drawn from this particular image because it really does speak to to africanamericans athletic ability, but it also speaks to to the larger lessons that we learned through sports of of hard work discipline persevering through adversity. And so we wanted to make sure that we were honoring what physical accomplishment man in the africanamerican struggle for greater greater rights and freedoms. And certainly there is John Woodruff who is from the university of pittsburgh and a middle distance runner. Who essentially came out of nowhere to win to win gold in the 800 meter race, he would also go on to be a Tuskegee Airmen. Which means he was a Fighter Pilot for the us military doing world war ii and and thats really important because at the time being a Fighter Pilot was one of the most prestigious jobs that you could have and as africanamericans tried to tie their their war service to to the fight against racism in the United States people like John Woodruff who won the olympic field also was a symbol of black black american achievement also was a symbol doing the war giving his his ability to to occupy this very prestigious and and demanding job as a as a Tuskegee Airmen. And less people look back and think that they were just part of the general fight. I want to remind our viewers also that the United States military was still segregated at the time so part of why you have a unit in fact the reason that you have a unit like the Tuskegee Airmen is because africanamerican pilots were not allowed to integrate into other other units. So how did athletes attract runner like owens or a middle distance runner like woodruff . How do they perform once they reach the arena in berlin . They succeeded beyond beyond measure and were essential to the the success of the us team. Yeah, we see here. Jesse owens here. He actually won four gold medals became one of the most celebrated athletes at the olympics and here he is with the olympic laurel on his head in his team vest showing off his medals woodruff also took a gold medal in the 800meter race, and i just you know, i am really struck by the also the the climb and how unlikely and how many odds these Young Athletes and they were very young had to overcome owens was the youngest of 10 children of a sharecropper farmer in povertent farmer. John woodruff was the grandson of enslaved people and the first in his family to finish high school and really it was a college that brought them, you know to sports. Am i right damian . I think woodruff was only 21 right when he competed at the games. He was he was 21. It was a College College student just like jesse owens was also a College Student as a student at at ohio state and its also important to remember that that they were competing in the north which provided africanamericans with more opportunities to to compete at the highest levels of amateur sports. And so certainly these are our two men who came from Humble Beginnings to become important symbols of of america and in africanamerican ambition and success. And theyre mentioned. Go ahead danny. I mean their stars at their own schools, but they also they face segregation at those schools also,