>> anyone else? i thank you for coming. thankou for helping celebrate the 75th anniversary of the national archives. [applause] our special booktv programming begins with former governor howard dean on his book, howard dean'srescription for real health care refor this is a little less than an hour. >> i thought i would just talk for ten minutes, not long time because i want to hear from you. i do tend to give long answers so when u.s. me question about something i have not talked about yet he may get a longer answer then you would like. i wrote the book because i thought there is the desperate need for a book that explains health care in plain english. this is an incredibly arcane subject. it is clearly the most complicated domestic policy we have. it is very hard to understand and it is usually put together by people who really know a lot but have trouble communicating in spite, or communicating in a straightforward way because it is so incredibly complex. i have to wonderful co-authors, faiz shakir and igor volsky. they started outhis fact eckers but ended up writing a number of factors but they revoke the whole book which than i had to write again to make sure was still in english. i am just teasing about that because they really know this stuff cold and it was a lot of fun to work with them and i want to thank them for what they did. a couple of things about health care. the first is, i will say i have been at this for 30 years ago i convinced the dean of the medical school i went to, albert einstein school of medicine to-- my senior yea in medical school in the fall of center javits and senator kennedy round hill as they were putting together the bill for jimmy carter when he was president. several years later i was involved with senator clinton, nosecretary clinton's task force drew some staff peoe we have permanently assigned to the task force and now in my later incarnation if the president obama built. this is the best bill i have seen. not because it is perfectly designed because no bill is perfectly designed, but because it iserfectly suited tthe american people and i know you'lle hearing all kinds of the lenders thin about the bill almost none of literature. he is how the pill works and i think obama's people of understood the nature of how to think change things which is why do you hear this-- i have never heard criticism like i've heard now, debt panels and the bill and all this kind of stuff. people take that seriously. they want to believe it, the people who do believe it. we are making huge transitions here between my generation and the new generation of barack obama in power. the ender 35, more people under 35 and over 65. this is a huge change for americans and with obviously change with change comes discomfort but here is why it is a great deal. the president and his people recognized during the campaign that america is a conservative country with a small c. that is we say we like change in america but we really never want quite as much as we say we want once eaglen said the ballot box. 80% of americans have health insurance. that 80% are happy with the health care. the other 20 have lousy insurance and then there's the roughly 20% that don't have any budget that still leaves 65% of the people with health care that they like and 65% always beats 35% in a democracy so what the president recognized was you can't arbitrarily force change on the american people especially when 65% are reasonablyatisfied with what they have got except for the cost so what he did it is give people a choice. you can keep wit you have if you liket but we will give you a choice. if you don't have insurance or if you have insurance that you don't like, we will make availablto you insurance that cannot ever be taken away, that costs the same price with you are sick or whether you are healthy, that stays with you even if you lose your b and stays wi you if you move from washington d.c. to seattle or honolulu, and that, and that's exists today, essentially it is medicare. we have had government-run health insance in this country for 45 years ago it is medicare. most people ke it. i get a kick out of the people who get up in the town meetings and say don't give me a government-run heah care in don't you touch my health-- medicare. essentiallyhat this plan does is allow you to sign up for something likeedice. there would have to be some adjustments. medicare is far from perfect. the insurance companies did what they didver the last 15 years which is to stick it to doctors and stick it to patients. ki complaints at these meetings that government bureaucrats will snd between you and your doctor. what about the insurance company bureaucrats? they are already standing between us and ouroctors. [applause] so just to cut to the chase in his book, this book allows health care reform not that the pace congress wants it or the insurance industry or anybody else. it allows health care reform at the paste do you want it. you can keep what you have for sign up for something else and when you sign up for something else you still have a choice. there will be a government subsidy, depending on your income and you can use it to sign up for a private program or a publi program. you get to control, the american people get to control the pace of reform. malcolm fo those super-duper reformers want to get everything done as possible,t is not fast enough. i think is much wiser and a uralistic democracy to leave the pace of change up to the ordinary american people because that reduces the fear factor and to see the extent which people had to say things about this bill they have never said before shows you how desperate the opposition is to crank up the fear factor. you can just crank it up by talking abou socialized medicine. there are four groups of people on socialized medicine, one is everybody over 65, one is that trends, one is people on medicaid, mostly poor and the others the people who complain about socialized medine, screaming and shouing, the congress of the united states. they go downstairs, they get sick and go to walter reed. how come we can have that? so, here is the bottom line in this book. first of all it is a lot of fun this book. there is a chapter on how a lot of other countries do it. there is a chapter on what you should do about the 12 myths the conservatives tell about health care in t public option in here are the answers to well that. we didn't quite cope with the euthanasia myth. we didn't quite think they would go that far. there is a couple of chapters about why do you can do as active as to get involved and go to varies web sites that you can go to to try toake your views known a so forth and so on. the bottom line is this though. if you don't have a public option is not reform and you shouldn't do it. if you don't allow, we are not asking congress to reform the health care system, we are asking them to let us reform the health care system at the pace we choose. furthermore, if you do sign up for a public option and you n't like you can leave and go back to the private sector. so, that this gives the american people a chance toeform health care at the pace they see fit and i think tt is the right way to do it. we frame it this way. first of all there's no public option, there is no reform. in at casey can do a few things in the insurance companies which we did. you can't deny anybody health care insurance and can charge sick people more tha you charge healthy people. it does not cost any money. you just do that. we should not spend $60 million a year and put it in the private insunce secto it is just going to make things worse, not better sophie don't give us a public option, don't pass the bill. at least don't pass it with any money. [applause] here's what i think the fight really is. there those who just can't stand up, and never did likm and they want to run his presidency and that is obviously senator demint who spoke about that, but the real debate is this. 72% of the american people think americans should have the choice of whether thave a public option or not. 50% of republicans think they ought to have the choice. most of those peop andot going to sign up forhe public option so this tns out not really to be about democrats, liberals and conservatives and rapublicans. this is about with the e to vote with the insurance companies to keep them in business and they are going to stay in business the matter bud and i don't think we ought to try to push them out of business because they are big plans that do good things. but they are going to stay in business. are we going to keep them making, doing theame things they do to consumers in physicians now because if you are then you vote no ainst a public option but if you want to give the american people a choice, you vote for the american people and 535 people will have to put themselves on the record. that is what this is really about. the other thing it is about is who chooses? do you wanto let congress? if you don't like a single-payer yuan havlan. if you want to be in a single-payer like everybody over 65 you can do that. if you wanto get in and get out, you can do that to. that is with the genius of obama's plan is and i hope it passes. thanks very much. i would be happy to take questions, comments and rude remarks it necessary. [applause] apparently wajts task a question you have to line u here which is going to koziol chaos i suppose this since we have align you c gradually making way up. >> do you think it is possible to te this plan that i am sure is drawing on all the successes and failures of multiple cotrs around the world to make it the best we can come and then sell it as such and really demonstrate that it is really helping e vast majority of pe and stawhere does not come atate where this thing, if it is the insurance companies, if it is the old tre rich. don't you think that would go lot furer than to quell the? >> i will give you my honest opinion about the rancor. a lot of the rancors people who never liked the bombing in the first place and are incredibly comfortabl not just with this change but with a lot of change anthey are angry endeavor recipe because there is a terrible recession with which they have nothing to do with causing, which is causing their life to b much more difficult so i get the anchor. i don't like the tactic of shouting people down but they get the hang there i think taers legitimate the lot of folks were never going to vote for obama and they don't plan on doing it now and they are ginned up by people who i do think are wrong, moray wrong, the right-wintalk-show hosts to make things up and i think that is improper and wrong. you have a right tdo it for the first amendment but it is not good for the country. bu so in this particular debate i actually believe to repeat the truth, late and often enough that peole want to get it will get it but you have to reassure them because when you say al lended things people began to believe them. when the biggest disappointments i have had this with repubcans to unlike john mccain with an enormous amount of personal courage and remember when obama said, somebody said he is in the town meeting in the city is a foreigner and a muslim? he said no man, he is a good family person. that takes courage. that is a patriotic and wonderful american. i did not vote for him but you like to have people like that in your corr. i would le to see more republicans stand up andaying things to these outlaish things. the spider disagreements we stand up for country and say what is right and speak the truth and don't take political advantage. we are where we are. [applause] think we go straightforward, keep telling the truth, to respectfully but we have got to stand up for what is right. this bill is not going to be perfect. there is no country on earth that has a perfect health care system. we will learn what our failures are and we will direct their failures but it will take time. >> thank you. >> i wanted to first of all complement you on your work and strategies, skills a getng president obama elected. even though i didn't vote for him, i voted for nader. but i appreciate it. [applause] >> we are not doing that. we have got a whole bunch of other people out there doing that and we are not going to do that. >> i appreciate you setting the tone of civility. bbc had a report that there's not a debate going on about health care reform in america t the shouting match so i appreiate you setting the standard. as someoneho actually has just returned from europe and they livehen paid taxes in u.k. into of the european countries, the u. in luxembourg, the amountf frederick hanff fearmongering beyond the pale, and on that coming back to your strategy, my question to you is because the allies are beyond words. and i strongly support any of the european systems. by the way ostrich-- okay, i am just a little nervous. , down, please. white in our most practical grassroots level, why would this al that you have proven by saying president obama occupy the white house, this kind of tappinin at the beginning stages that same kind of success story happen with the promoting and educating. i don't want to use the word marketing in getting this that, having worked under the moral majority for a democrat, these strategies were ppening back then. this is not like this so why is president obama, why were you not come even before he got elected how to approach the fear and i would have to admit illiteracy and under reeducation about america's need for health care reform? >> i think that is t question a t of people are asking themselves. you know, i think to be not as charitable as i probably should be bit more charitable than they deserve, i think we just didn't expect the depths to which fol have sunk. i need to have a former vice presidential candidate standing up and saying her baby would have been killed by obama's death panels. keith olbermann could not imagine that system. [laughter] i just think you are right, we were unprepared for what the links people were willing to go to to kill this especially since its reasonable. this is not a single-payer and they are pbably people in this audience to which it were. i thought this was in the compromise. we already compromised. this is the last smidgen of reform in the bill. at the don't have that you don't have anything. [applause] you are right we should have been better prepared. and let me just say this. i think this is the last guest that this kind of stuff because i mentioned the generational change. the neweneration does not like this and they are not going to voteor people who behave like this. oureration was born of conflict, we are very con-- confrontational. young people don't like this kind of stuff and the republicans, karl rove used to talk about polling for anger points and you know we made people angry, various emigrants and so on and that is how they got elected. this is the logical extenon of that and i don't think it's going to fly so i think we are going to get the bill and we will have a public options because i think the republicans will get out of the debate. therefore when you rely on democratic votes, the majority of the democrats won a public opti but i can tell you, i think this is kind of the high watermark for those of us who would consider the low watermark in because this younr generation is getting older ever year, their views on how politics should be conducted in this country aren't going sustain the republican party of they continue to do this kind of stuff. [applause] >> are you dr. governor? >> whatever. >> i will try to keep my comments quiet. i've got a financial into geographical question of the public plan. in your book you say theublic plan will not be drawing on the public funds and be self financing. >> ultimately that is true. >> i've got three comments on that, freddie, fannie in the postal system and all three of those promise the same thing you are promising with this plan. i tend to doubt it a little bit with the existence of those three government entities that are now being built up by the government. the second queion is-- >> you only get to because i don't remember more than two things at once. >> to important questions. >> the second point is geographical. i am precluded from identifying a great health care plan in the press in buying it. i lost my plan that was approved in maryland. the public plan, the public option will bavailable i assume in all 50 states so onto bases, the financial and geographical, we in america have competition, equal playi fields and stuff like that so isn't there a bias to the public plan on a financial in geographical basis? >> to really good questions and thank you for asking them. on the first one, i think the blue dogs make this bill better have essentially sign that of the debate. unique moderates to be in the debate because this is the country represented by conservatives moderates and liberals so you need everybody to have a shot at the debate and they have started to address issues like that, like-- you could put in a bill that there won't be in his stain funding. that does not meanhey couldn't changehe bill. th blue.of put in that you don't pay micare rates. that is one of the reasons the premium would beower with cost shifting in the private sector so you are right to be skeptical. on the other hand if it happens, thconsumers would like the pre but you are right, it is not in our interest i don't think. i don't think it is in our interest to drive all the private health insurers out of business. some of them, yes but not all of them. weed didn't drive a bunch of them out of vermont and i'm happy we did because the consumer practices were outrageous. this one i don't think i can help you with rick why think we can put safeguards into try to make the public plan-- the public plan does not need subsidy plans. single-payer advocates are absolutely right, it is cheaper to run a public plan. on the state to state stuff comingears the problem. it isrue you can find a great plan in nebraska and if you didn't have individual regulation of states by insunce commissioners, then you could do tt. the problem is what happens is the race to the bottom. the reason we were able to do the reforms, everybody my stay under 18 yrs old is eligible for health insurance, 99% of them under 18. the business we have a great insurance commissioner and didn't put up with a lot of insurance company to keener. you could pay less money he wanted to get your policy in texas but less for your money than you do and more expensive places so i don't want to start a race to the bottom. it defederalize rules, what happens is you get one standard. without wishing cast aspersions on the previous administration the standards would have gone down a lot because the previous administration was much more pro-business at least relative to his views kn insurance companies so i would like it least as a vermonter, the ability if an administration i did not approve of got into power to have our insurance companies y no, the commissioners they know you are not going to do business under these cmstances and the reverse is true. from the republican point if you maybe, suppose we get a democratic president in the cranked up the industry and required all these consumer protections and regulations that people did not approve of, maybe the people of texas would say i don't want all of those regulations. today they don't have to have them so is the governor i am states' rights oriented in terms of i notice tough on people and texas which has a 25% on insurance rate but it makes it great for people like me in vermont to live in a place where the insurance commissioner is very pro-consumer and i don't want to take that away unless we have a precedenthat is not so for a consumer. >> even if i want to raise to thbottom and getctive plan the pscott, should i not have a choice? >> it is your own argument turned against the. that will eliminate the top tier and they won make any money selling khai class insurance and they won't be in business very long because your volume will push them out of business so it is exactly the same argument used on me about the public plan. [laughter] it is true but you are right about the public plan. we want to level the playing field and make it more pro-consumer. it should not be the goal-- the fact that i said this in the book and some people disagree, most of the real-- one of the things i talk about in the book is you have to have it wellness model instead of an illne model and in oer to get their most of the innovatio moving to the wellness model fm the illness model are in the private sector. most notably interestingly large self insured companies, not so much the insurance companies although the best one of all is kaiser. is vertically integrated and here is why. there is a guy in san diego at cardiologists who has a great invention. it monitors to chronic conditions and uses up a huge amount of health care resources. in real time it sends out, you can watchhis person's health data for those two conditions an over wi-fi your office if you are a physician. what is advtage of this? usually conditions start to deteriorate before the patient knows and if the patient is a mandate you can put off the visit for another three weeks and by the time they get their they needed i see you visit so we are testing this th the nih to see a big rally postpones, improved acute care and eliminates-- the trouble is, who is going to buy? therimary care providers not going to buy it because they lay out $3,000 don't give anything back. the hospital seethe icu visit do you did not have this lost revenue, but kaiser for a totally integrad systems se it as they are, both the tertiary ce provider and primy care provider they invest in prevention they do see the tabak later on so there is a lot of private sectors of that is draped in the government does do some innovation but the private sector does more in the best of has been done by and large by a big for-profit company, the biggest ones in america that have a huge self insured group that is all community rated if you can get in the door and they really do, they do stuff like free gyms, they clear up their cafeterias of horrible things we should not be eating at some of them take attendance at the gym which may be going a little far. yes. >> thank you governor dean. as you know i've lg been an advocate of universal access. my concern thoughs that if we expand access it is not going to be sustainable unless we start to build the cost curve, so we all,ost of us have some sense what tha shouldook like that we are not sure and you can't legislate those in points now. what you think we could put in place now as part of this legislation that would give us some hope of an impetus toward those greater efficiencies and specifically, do you think that this audience the proposal or the medpac on steroids ia sensible approach towards you believe the public option can accomplish that? >> i think the publish-- public option can. this has been the most awful journaic mats i have seen in a long time because they cover screening but they never cover substance. one of the most fundamental substante developments i have seen in massachusetts, whatever you think of the plan in certainly financially it is not the model you would want to follow butnly to one one-half% of the citizens of massachusetts have no health insurance. that is right on par with were a lot of your inferences are. it is not on par with canada but it is on par with places like germany and france for you have tn sig up. it is an extraordinary achievement. i think if they had a public option they would have done better but they haven't, but we need not denigrate thabut the extraordinary thing about it is they know thehave the big problem and it is not just because they didn't have a public option. so ty have a big panel last month and they got together including everybody in the medical industrial complex, every but he and the panel voted unanimously including the ctors and hospitals to get rid of fee-for-service medicine. here is the problem and this is why the private sector does not work. private enterprise, private enterprise, there are two areas that private enterprise does not work as well as government. one is defense as the iraqi contracting scandal shows and the others health care and here is why. it is not because there's something inherently deficient. of it is that in health care the consumer does not make the choice and i don't care how many hsa's you have. you can decidabout doctor visits and save 100 bucks if you are going to get over the cold you have any way but the big expenses-- when you are a consumer in a carnesi the dealership sensemaker deal based on what you can afford in a few can afford y get something less. if you are a consur and health care i tell you what you want and we send the bill to the third party and the more i do to you the more i get paid. thiss insane. that is what you can control costs. does not just the insurance companies although they don't help much with their decillion dollar increases tt they have to show wall street every quarter because they are publicly owned companies. it is the fact that they supply and demandurves can't work in health care and even if they could work in health care then you would have rationing by price which we already have because we have a ton of people who have no health insurance. .. russell, doctors who are in imary care in the united kingdom make more than doctors in primary care and the united states of america today and they are on salary. the majority of -- and i am not here as a raving sgle pay at it as i have said, or addict either. [laughter] bu the fact of the matter is under single-payer system the efficiencies are much greater than under our system with their you like that piece of information or not, andhe majority of primary-care physicians in this country now by a very wide margin fever single-payer. that is true whether you like single-payer or not. [applause] the reason they favor is the hassle of running yourwn practice being told you have to see a patient every six minutes ving your and frankly the insurance company bureaucrats that call you aer the fact and to my tests of patients they've never seen, primary-care doctors have had it. it's not true with specialists but with primary-care doctors. if you should get rid of fee-for-service medicine that would be a big step in the right direction and i think that's going to happen because the people opposing this bill now will flip the position very shortly because he realize the incentives are driving up the cost far beyond the rate of inflation. next. thanks. >> my question is along similar lines about the fee for service but correlate to thats an insurance. >> the reason malpractice insurance is on the bill because when you pass a bill likthis you make a lot of enemies and we didn't need one more. [laughter] and you add the trial lawyers on top and these other folks and it gets to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. having said that malpractice is a problem but it is a hard problem to parse. some states, -- it is a problem in eve state for anesthesiologists, neurosurgeons and obstetricia and some places such a bad problem they have givenp and don't practice it any more or they just go to have no insurance whatsoever and all of their insurance in their spouse's name and in flida and you can do that as o.j. simpson prove. but even in states like mine whic don't have the malpractice problem except the thr specialties it's not that big of an issue. does require defensive medicine probably an important factor not as much as the business community says or as little as the lawyers say. it's in between. i think there is a solution. my solution neither doctors nor the lawyers like so it must be reasonable is u can't be my people and people should be compensated for injuries they suffered because malpractice read i think most reasonable way is to send claim to arbitration that is them binding. you have the right to go to a jury but it is admissible evidence and the other thing to be great for malpractice reform is something conservatives hate for reasons that are not clear which is comparative effectiveness research. comparative effectiveness research basically lookst different things that are done and decides which ones work and whic ones don't. it started 30 years ago at dartmouth who discovered women who lived in the southeast were three times likely to have a hysterectomy than the woman that lived in the northeast for bleeding. and the results were no different. that is the morbidity/mortality didn't change so obviously three times as many hysterectomies were done in one region ofhe country without improving the result. it's pretty obvious you start to begin to have to pass the information on how people make different decisions. now of course we know a huge amount which devices work, which don't, which drugs work well. the reason that stuff is important for malpractice is if you do that kind of research and you discover what works and what doesn't, ultimately it results something doctors also resist but much less resist now, national standard of practice and once you have -- [applause] -- once you have a national standard of practice it is true doctors can't be as cowboy or qalqilya as they once likedthe i can do anything you want. it's you can take the standard to the court and say i did everything in this national standard of practice and that will be against the charge are committed malpractice. so i think comtitive research, it helps se money. it saves patientsnnecessary procedures and will protect doctors against unreasonae suits. [applause] yes? i am wondering whether we could focus how we pay for expanding health care coverage and whether we would pay for is strictly with and only with health care savings in other words health care expansion paid for bye health care cost savings. there are two principal ways, number one is to eliminate or reduce exclusion for health insurance for employees which would pay for health ce expansion with production and health care costs for government loss of revenue and the other is the savings in medicare and i am rry the @udience may not agree but medicaris i think catastrophically underfunded. if the goverent woq impose upon myself the same accounting standards for health care insurance that it imposes on coanies through erisa which is present value accountings the findgs are there are trillions of dollars underfunded. if you are a private cpany you would have to true of your plan and fix it. >> we will talk to bernanke about that. >> it is whether you would support at least requiringhe government imposed upon itself and everybody else. the other is whether or not if the government is honest about the fact it's so catastrophic this is 1.5 times the net worth of the united states underfunded and the way to treat up which is what we would require of gm or anybody else is to take the people who can afford a higher copay and deductible and turn it into a program. i am on medicare in three and a half months. there iso reason we should bankrupt the government and i mean everythg we want, government, parks been corrupted like gm s bankrupted for a non-means tted program. >> let me respond what was the first one? [laughter] u.s. the long second -- no, the accounting and the true wealth. the health care taxg benefits. in theory you are right about taxing benefits because the employer based health care is bad for the economy. obama is right not to push people out but in ft canada has their businesses have a competitive disadvantage to our business is becae even though they paidore taxes their taxes haven't been going up 2.5 times inflation in premiums for general electric and general motors have so if your goal is to push people out of employer based health insurance taxing nefits is a good idea don't think that is a good idea. maybe someday down the road people want to talk about this again but until the systems are in place to handle everybody in erica and public option i don't think it is a good idea to push people. this choice does have to be left to the american people so that i would worry about even though it a good idea in theory but one of those things in practice if you do it you have to cause enough problems you are not going to have muchealth care form. on the halter stuff there was a brilliant article in "the new york times" this past week or it could have been in "the wall street journal" of the light of it if it was the lat two pages, and that is to bin the process of trimming up the biggest problems, there are a lot of prlems but one of the big problems is there is no trust fund because we have borrowed. we have to pay back $100 million a year for the foreseeable future. we ought to at least begin the process of doing that and the 66 trillion is an actuary of lumber saithere is a lot of assumptions that are going to be changed because you can just print money and put it in their. let me say one other thing. when i wrote this book on a promised myself i would not attack congressmen or the president of either congress party on issues other than sying something that is flat out not true on issues that have to do with funding the onl thing i care abo is a public auction. the reason i took that position is congress is a hard job and these guys or gals have to vote on something that is going to make sebody mad and tha is what they do. it easy for me to stand outside the arena and criticize everything they do. i try to pick the one thing i think is essential in this bil obama as bill which is public option and fus on that. i did slip a little in eook. i made two suggestns i made clea in the book that i but in to push in the bill and i am not pushing them in the bill but one had to do with finance and that is to use a carbon tax to finance. it made sense but people at the bottom are the people who are going to get the biggest benefit from the fact they will have health insuance nobody can take away. it's gre for the environment and use this fiscaincentive to change people's environmental behavior and it is a huge untappedesources. that is how i would find, but again i am not pushing that. we will revis many times and as winston churchill's about americans in general and congress specific you can do the right thing after every possibility is exhausted. [laughter] i get three more so beyond the next tee has to sit down. you don't have to sit down but he will not be heard from. >> can any health care reform be successful without enormously increasing the number of primary re physicians and does the president's plan do that and how was it done? i base that not only reading about the shortage, but some mohsgo i had to find a new posion, i have a great health insurance plan, i live in the d.c. area. i called5 primary care physicians. 12 of them are now specialists. of the other 12, ten of them were taking no new patients at all and out of the remaining two they could see me in two months on loss i have a very high fever. so we are about to eate a plan one way or anothe that will dump tens of millions of more people into the health care system whicheems incapable of dealing today with people who have insurance what do weo about th? >> there are some things in the bill that are not adequate but e getting better. one of the things the blue dogs did to the bill and i know blue dogs are not held in high regard in my and departed have attributed couple great things. when they needed better for special business. if you have a payroll under 500,000 you don't have to deal with health insurance and that is a boost to the people back rica 80% of new jobs. another is the issue you have raised. they said that medicare rates may not be used for public auction. they didn't get rid of public opti they said you cannot pay medicaid rates. that is a plus because one of the reasons you cannot get primary care doctors is because they get paid less than britain and one the reasons they get paid less than britain as because medicare compensation is atrocious and the reason insurance companies save money is they try to push down the cost, push of their profits is to pay medicare rates. now if you want to fix imary-care you've got a couple of things and the bill does not do them all. you have to raise compensation for primary care providers. second out verse practitioners be recognized what they are. 60% what i did could have been done by a well trained nurse practitioner. third, something bush gets credit for is one of the few things i agree on he put a lot of money into federally funded qualified health centers on the idea that was way to be a place a lot of people could get hlth care. we have a bunch of them in vermont and they started out poor people clinics and now the or alinic anybody can go to to have their own medical home and fourth, if you want to sn up for public option you have to have a medical home. that's very important. a lot of these folks do have doctors, these poor people and people who don't have insurance but there are doctors who rotate through themergency rooms or however and they don't go on till it is late in the process. if everybody is required to have a medal home that is something the free market will do, they will increase the amount you are able to get paid for, the pay for care physicians. finall9% of graduates in 2007 ended up in primary care, 9%. the average medical pson who graduate medical school was between 100 to $150,000 in debt. one the things toyed with in the bill and i think it is one of the four versions passed is if you're going to enter a primary care especially and make a commitment to that for a significant amount of time that you graduate debt-free so you can afford primary-car you're point i well taken. there is some stuff in the bill but of everything. [applause] >> we have time for two more. >> dr. dean, what happens if a lot of people sign up for the public plan and then the doctors don't participate likhas happened with medicaid there are many places in the cntry where people call up and say to the office do you take medicaid, does your doctor take medicaid and do you know anybody who does? so what happens -- why is it going to be attractive for doctors -- the might not want to participate, and then a lot of people signed up a they -- doctors don't participate, then they might -- they say you could leave the public plan but >> it is simply it doesn't cost a lot to pay primary-care ctors more because they are all the high and chargers. you could raise everybody's primary care by 25% and uould be far from bkrupting theystem. that is and where the big bucks are. in fact people believe specialists all the time. drug companies is 10% of the total outlay. the big box is in procedures. that is where the huge bucks are. and hospitalization and that is where you have to look for this meeting so you are right and t market does work there and eventually that is one of the former speakers say we should have medicare be means tested, that is a terrible mistake. you want everybody in the system because of everybody who wants to be in the systedid congress has toespond if it is just a program for poor people they can kick folks to the site because they don't participate in the process as much so if everybody is in the system andeople like you are coming up and complained about reimbursement and can't find a docr the gernment has to do something about that and measures we talked but expanding primary care -- when we made health insurance everybody in the 18 it was to expand medicare to make it an entitlement for people under 18. if your family today makes less than $66,000 in year your kids are entitled to surance as many as you have for for injured $80 a year. why? doesn't cost much to take care of kids. we don't have to rse taxes to do it but we did have to raise anderson's because we are increasing pediatricias dramatically and if you don't raise the reimbursement pediatcians are the nices doctors in the whole world. they are, they are just wonderful people. they g paid less than anybody except maybe psychiatrists, don't ask me why that is and i am not makingny judgments on average but if you don't, people have to be able to run their business and it is a business so we increase the rates significantly to pediatricians d iteems to be working. last one. >> i was wondering if you could mment on how you think the insurance companies predict how they will behave if you move from a private option to the public auction. would force them to beore competitive or will they start drumming up new ways to exclude people who are moved over to the other side? thank you. >> the bill calls for them to es to wheys. they want the option not to undercut by using government subsidies. but the government option takes everybody they're going to apply to the insurance companies. re is a fact in the book. there are two european systems almost all of which are universal. the netherlands and switzerland which don't have public option it's all private insurance companies, however, the tree the private insurance companies like regulated utilities how much they can make and with their salaries can be and how much they can charge. i ink we ought to put that on the table, though public option, just with the swiss system in here believe meeting will be for the public option as fast as they can be because they have to compete, there isn't much regulation of the two pieces of regulation are guaranteed issue and community rating. the community rating is 20% and you aan't charge the sickest person 20% more than the healthiest person. that has worked and the insurance people have stayed in our state are pretty good in shobt --nsurers. you shouldn't be able to charge one groupf people 100% more. th is an insurance business not just a profit-making business. you have to think abo real insurance. i understand there has to be one but it should be narrow. so the argument against the idea people would be able to dump their folks into the public option and will take all the rest first of all if we did it would be fine beuse these people have to have insurance and maybe that would make the insurance companies a little more called inerms of how they treat people but if they can't of guaranteed ratings past they have to take them all so everybody should theoretically have roughly the same risk pool. that isn't exactly going to happen because there is a preponderance of people already ill who have disabilities various kinds because they can't get insurance so there will be some risk irease the public auction. the other thing that happens i at the insurance companies have to take the same risks but if some of them end up with a government actually pays them more han the companies tha exclude so there is a leveling effect, lots of ways to do this and none of them are rocket science and the already exist in other models but it's of likely we are going to end up with a system we take all of the risky patience. there's a lot of risky patients now in group insurance. group insurance is much better than individual insurance and group insurance is the best deal of all you get a job with ibm you will get their health benefits and they will not charge you more than somebody else or any number of microsoft or any number of another cilium companies that have big groups of insurance plans. that isn't a bad way to run insurance in fact the are impleader based systems through the world the work that way. germany works somewhat like that except it done through kildee or something like unions. the bottom line and i am going to do this for the close out, the publia option is sometng that isn't n. everybody over 65 is in the public option so the question is are we going to make people under 65 eligible for that kind of health care if they would like to make that choice. and if you do that, will there be adjustmen on the road? yes. will there be problems on the road? yes. but if you don't do that no matter what they with they don't do that we are condemned to the system we have in the foreseeable future and that is not sustainable. thanks vy much. [applause] now, and our special book tv program and political consultant and commentator dick moore is on his book, "catastrophe." this is a little more than an hour. [applause] my ego isn't such when i encounter this traffic on the way here i realized it was for the yankee game. [laughter] but i am delighted to see everybody here. thank you very much for coming and i apologize for bei late. thank you. well, these are very difficult times. i am happy to finally found a bank to co-sponsor this that isn't owned by obama. [laughter] [applause] somehow i don't think aig would sponsor these kind of defense anmore. [laughter] we are in a -- id is hard to be smiling, but you can't do anything else. this is a very, vy difficult time of course in this country. and we are not suffering right now because of the recession that started under george bush. we are suffering primarily because of the cure before the recession adopted by barack obama. [cheering] [applause] because the recession itself began as a normal flow of the capitast system and is probably ending by about now. it is china and other countries throughout t world but it's not here and the reason it's not here is not the disease. it's the consequences of the cure. [applause] what obama did whene took office is to pass this massive stimulus spending program and the stimulus program was nev a means to end the recession. theecession was a means to ge the stimulus program passed. [applause] because the stimulus program included eight years of democratic spending dreams, some of which are quite good. broadband computer access, renovating schools, expanding eay childhood education, good stuff. but over eight years when the money is coming and, when you don't have to borrow it to debate and one wheat and along with other garbage in that package that i am sure you know all about like $250,000 for a tattoo removal parlor in los angeles -- in san francisco the idea of tattoo removal hasn't caught on yet. [laughter] but the idea this massive spending would somehow lift up the economy is totally wrong and it is wrong when they did it in japan. for 20 years they've had stimulus spending i japan. when they started in 1990 the ratio of debt to the economy was 25%. now the debt is to plant five times the economy, 250%. and you know what? over the last 20 years japan now has a gdp will redeem 20 years ago. it's down ablutely no good and when bush sent checks in 2008 it did absolutely no good in "catastrophe." e idea of keynesian economics, that theory s been replad by the theory of rational expectations which says we are not stupid when we get a check in the mail and are in dangerf losing our jobs and houses we do not run out and bought a flat screen tvs. thank goodness we buy books. [laughter] [applause] >> [inaudible] >> butot flat screen televisions or cars. so in the month of april the total household income in the united states rose from $120 billion. 50 billi of which was the stimulus money coming back to us. but saving rose by $131 billion. 10 billion me than the household income. buthat mant is we didn't spend a dime. we put it all paid down credit cards on the catching up on mortgages, paying down bills and we put it in treasury bills and those of less realistic put it psp, posterpedic savings program under the mattress. [laughter] th safest place. and then obama how spending the money is running around the world with a tin cup borde with over $100 biion a week. 2 trillion by october 1st and when you are trying to borrow that much money it dris up interest rates. people are not going to lead it to you for nothing. and as a result the long-term interest rates have doubled since heook office and mortgage rates have gone up by a full point in six weeks. thank you for not doing when they said i worked for bill clinton. but i've got to tell you this, this was not the way bill clinton handled a recession. bill clinton eliminated the ddficit. barack obama has quadrupled. bill clinton put mortgage interest rates by three or four points. oba is letting them go up. bill clinton eliminated the deficit by cutting the capitol gains tax from 28% to 20 and i am not tracie you cut the the capitol gains more people sell and buy as more transactions and pruced more revenue and permitted us to eliminate the budget deficit. i remember sitting there with the pad in the oval office and he litally wrote a budget from memory. this guy knew every one of t 50,000 lines in the federal budget and he wrote a budget and those cuts in the opinion completelyeaningless. the only that mattered was the capitol gains tax cut because the genated revenue that eliminated the deficit but obama is doing the opposite. he is increasing the deficit that when you go to borrow money for refancing yr home the fed is elbowing you out othe way. now the federal reserve board knows if they let terest rates go as high as they are going to go with this massive borrowing we will be in the great desion so we know what they are doing, they are printing money. they don't call it printing money they collect buying treasury securities or nds and ocks but what it is is they are buying qtuff and putting money that isn't there. now imagine it is as if in your cars obama kay brown and said i am going to give you- the fed said i am going to give you all a full tank of gas and they went around shooting gas into your car until it was full and every car in the country was now on full but people didn't want to drive because it was snowing or reading or lousy weathero they figured they would put the c into the parking garage then when the weather improved when the economy got better they would come out of the parking garage and use the gas. the problem is they are going to do this all at once. now you are no strangers to traffic living where you live but the point is this is going to b incredible inflation because we too much money too few goods the total amount of money into circulation has tripled since october 1st, tripled. i don't mean like ten p cent or 20%. i mean 300% increase it went from 800 billion to 2.5 trillion that moneyow is not being spt under the mattress is like i said or paying down debt but once the economy starts recovering is going to come out massely and you're going to have unbievable inflation so that's the catastrophe. we were coming out of this recession it went down like this and we were coming out. now we are hit with highe interest rates and are going to go right back in deeper and deeper and then we will begin eventually to recover like capitalism always does and as we come bacwe are going to be hit with inflaon on the back end of that and these diseases of a prolonged recessn increased unemployment and inflation at the end and perhaps during we may have to press glisson to get stagflation. inflation while we have depression are all the consequences barack obama's determination to ps $1.4 trillion of new spending not to stuhate the economy but to grow the government and to the spending. now when he took office 33% of the economy went to government, 21 to the fed and 12 to state and local. now after the spending package its 39 to 40% and wants the health care program is approved if it is that will be 45%. now germany is 47, france is 50, sweden for god sakes is only at 54 so we are really getting up there with the socialist regime of europe which was the al all all the. now the next chapter, by the way i am sorry i just want to explain something about his psychology. barack obama has a european idea in his mind. he is a european social democrat, european socialist because he went to college in europe. [laughter] charles river is wider than the atlantic ocean. [laughter] and he got the european ideal which is distribution of wealth rather than creation, regulation there for fairness has apportioned by the government rather than freedom and entrepreneurialism and individualreativity. now, they say will this sacrifice econoc growth and if he is being honest he would say yes it will just like in europe but we have had growth for 40 years and now it is time to have fairness which would beis view fairness being give money to people that hav't worked for it and haven't earned it and taking it fm people that have with that is his notion of fairness and the european notion. am for income ristribution. i think it's very important. that's why we have the most progressive tax system in the world. we do more to redistribute income through our income tax than any other country. the top 1% in this country makes 21% of the income but it pays 41% of the incomeaxes. the top 10% of this country which is about 100,000 a year pays 70% of the taxes. the top 25 per cent which is household income of about 75,000 a year pays 86% of the taxes. the bottom 50 per cent which is less the and $48,000 household income of your pays 3% of the taxes and other obamay will pay zero. and in fact what he is going to do is take the number of people that don't pay taxes at all and raise it from about 35% to about 55% of the total country and give them money back so 55% of the people will have a party on april 15th. it's going to be a good day not because of earth day but because they are getting a refund of money they never paid and it means 55 to 60%f this country ll have a net positive transaction with the irs. they will receive money and a smaller and smaller group of people will pay more and more of the taxes and become politically impotent. he can raise taxes as much as he wants, who cares we are not paid yet and we are the majority of the voters and that is the class warfare system that obama socialism is predicated on. >> [inaudible] >> yeah, you've got that right. [applause] i don't know do grown discount. [laughter] but listen, the point is this top 1% and top 20% may be impotent publiclbut not financially. the top% of the country spends one-fifth of t money, the top 25% spends two-thirds of the y and obama is about to realize you cannot declare war on the productive parts of society. you can't replace the war on poverty with the or of prosperity and have the economy grow. [applause] now th's all the bad news. [laughter] the bad news is what he's planning to do with health care reform. because you can always recover from taxes by revealing. but once he destroys the health care system in the united states there is no going back. now he says 's going to increase efficiency and health care and that is going to save enough money so he can cov people that are now not covered. now what efficiency means is say no. it means no. 70-year-olds can have a need replacement, 75, no, you can't have a hip replacement. what if i spent my own money? no. the doctor can perform abortion until he is blue in the face but for a hip replacement he will lose his license and it says know you are 80-years-old and diabetic you can't have bypass surgery and this is and how wording the government to make these kind of decisions. how will they and power than? they will empower them because they will either be a public health care system, public heth care provider, insurance company run by the government which will compete with private firms. that's like the kentucky derby but one of the horses is on steroids. it's getting subsidies from the government and it is obviously going to defeat the ones not getting subsidies then you have the single payer governmt plal. but even if that is the case the governme is going to use its power over the private companies even if there is no public company to force this kind of rationing and the reason is you cannot expand medical care by writing a check. you can expand schools by writing a check, hire extra teachers. you can expand defense spending by writing a check, build more tanks and airplanes. but medical care requires a doctor and nurse and the only our 800,000 doctors and 1.4 million versus to treat the country and they are working like crazy trying to treat 252 million americans who receive health insurance now. if they are going to have to coveanother 48 million americans now not covered it's ing to mean less medical care for the rest of us. it's like sleeping with a blanket that is too small either your neck gets cold or youreet but on less you grow the blanket that is the choice you face. obviously we need to cover the 48 million people. obviously they are entitled to health care but do it in their right way. expand the number of doctors, and expand the number of nurses and one of that is happening then expand the number of patients but don't magicly decree you are gng to cover them automatically because then the only way you can do this by rationing and by cost control and when he says cost kunkel he means pay doctors less money and when you pay doctors less money you have fewer doctors so the cycle just perpetuat and gets worse and worse and you end up with a situation they have now and one of the reasons we rush this into it was in the stores six weeks later is to get the fact about the canadian health care system out there to the american people. canada has a 16% higher cancer death rate than the united states and half an ounce many poor people say you think would be the other way around and 6% higher heart disease death rate. it is in a eight week wait in canada for radiation for cancer. you have to hope that the cancer rate it is and eig mon wheat in canada for a colonoscopy and as a result the incidence of colon cancer in canada is 20% higher than in the united states. and the top two medicines we use for cmotherapy for a advanced stage colinancer or both ibm and cannot not because of health or safety concerns about they are tooxpensive so they make patients recei the medication. we stopped using ten years ago and as a result of he get colon cancer in canada you have a 41% chance of dying in whereas if you get it in the united states to have a 32% chance of dying so that next time you are talking to somebody like your children and they are in favor of health insurance tell them if mom got cancer would you like her to have to wait eight weeks to get radiation because there we not enough machines and doctors to go around because that is the price of what obama is to ring and it's not he will never catch up with a number of doctors because the cost control he is an imposing would reduce the number of doctors and create all durham and longer dels. four years ago tre was on the four week wait for radiation in cada last yr it we up to eight weeks and is getting worse and worse because the number of doctors is going down and down and that is what barack obama is trying to do to health care system and we can't let him do that. [applause] and we can stop it. in the book, "catastrophe," you will find a hit list of all of those democratic congressmen who get elected as conservatives and then go up to washington and vote which ever way nancy pelosi tells them to vote. [laughter] and we are going to go after those people to educate the district about what they are doing and to defeat them and that election at is coming up. [applause] and if you go to dickmorris.com and enter your e-mail address will keep you posted how to do that. sometimes the democrats do is phony business of voting against what podicy wano they can get reelected but making sure there are 219 who do what she says so the bill pass. now the cap-and-trade bill, a lawyer and utility rates are not an unintended consequence of the cap and trade regulation. ey are the secret goal. they have decided the way to reduce carbon emissions is to make you use less electricity by taxing plants that use co to generate electrical power and the goal here is to increase the utility rates. they can't do it as a tax so they call it cap and trade which nobody understands but it's going to have the same net effect. now i don't know if you agree with me and am sure there are many here who don't but i believe global warming is happening and i honestly believe won't repeat nothing like that ever again. >> bad news for andre smith, after a 32 day contract holdout, he suffered a fracture in his left foot. not known how long he will be out. but it will likely prevent him from the opener. >> the raiders' quarterback, is expected to miss two weeks, with a chipped bone. he'll wear a cast, and won't play, on thursday, and isn't expected to miss the team's season-opener. >> updating you on some baseball. phillies, 1-0, cole hamels, pitching brilliantly. ryan howard, rbi-double in the fourth. 8th in his last six games. giants are even with the rockies. giants, are seeing the mets, also playing, the rockies, tonight, as well. keep you updated on that one as well. >> david wright has been fighting to get back, and he will be, the mets' third-baseman. play for the first time since he was struck on the helmet by a matt cain fastball. >> they just got underway, out in colorado. mets are a combined, 10-5, against the three teams in the wildcard position. mets up, 2-1, david wright has a hit. nchat 2 watch 4", thearrowixpere diamondbacks and dodgers, three-game set in los angeles. dodgers lost game 1, and bring a five-game lead, into tuesday night. >> time to talk dodgers. we welcome him in, all these weird trade rules. bottom line, the dodgers have a new bat, in jim thome, and a new pitcher in jon garland. why was this important. >> the dodgers have been playing monopoly, they were using a knuckleballer, and charlie is his first name. he's been here a short amount of time. milton, and jason schmidt and they couldn't get anybody solid. garland, won a world series title. and first grade professional and, as he said, when he was in the clubhouse, a dream come true. thome gives them the big bat off the bench like matt stairs, and joe torre didn't have anybody, that was on the bench for him. they solidified what they will do. >> you just mentioned jim thome coming off the bench. is there any chance that he could be in the starting nine by the time the playoffs role around. >> james loney has nothing to do. thome said i want to come over, and i want to help. and he said if i play first-base, it better be in a emergency situation. he doesn't need to pack a glove. and torre talked about it again. thome, will be here tomorrow. and he'll be available, in their third game against the diamondbacks. but, the chance of him playing first-base are slim and none. >> the dodgers have been a .500 ballclub. what's the biggest concern for them? >> consistent offense.me an you take away etheir, and kemp,i he's gotn 22 homers. and etheir, only solid consistent hitters. manny, up-and-down. and furcal, he hasn't stolen a base in 31 games. hasn't been any kind of flow with the dodgers. this past roadtrip, there was games where they were winning, 3-1, they couldn't get anything going in august. that's the reason they had a losing record in the month of august. went through the "dog days of summer." and it's time for them to turn it around. you don't get the sense, that they're worried. that's the last thing, they still have a lot of confidence. >> you mentioned manny. today, eve van was booed for his play. not playing like he cared. has there been any concern with the way manny's lack of offense has been perceived in l.a.? >> last week, you had some people calling, saying manny should be benched and getting tired with his antics, and turning basehits into triples. and he hits a homerun and he's everybody's favorite. still love him. but it's the more he hits the more fans will have and when you don't hit, they don't love you. when you do and you produce, everybody loves you. it's a star coach. >> you know, that's right. final question, you have seen a lot of these games, do you think the rockies or giants have a run to catch the dodgers, a month, both trailing by five-and-a-half games today? >> yeah. dodgers have six games with the giants, and three in san francisco, and finish with colorado. i don't think colorado has a run in them but the giants, that pitching staff cannot be overlooked. they can get hot and make a push, it's the giants, and the dodgers, and ints. >> reporter: s, nothing more than the giants, which you love to do anything that they can. people love to hate on l.a. >> my man, thank you very much. >> anytime, coach. >> coming up, it's a a big-time job with big-time expectations. charlie weis is on the "hot seat" more than eve >> "college football overdrive" is back. it's year 4, on "espnews," every saturday, 3-8:00 eastern, we take you live to the most exciting games. expert analysis. our kickoff, september 5th, 3 eastern, on "espnews." ♪ >> one of the perks of watching "college football overdrive." live look-ins. may not be able to see it. georgia, and oklahoma state. that's all on "college football overdrive," right here on "espnews". >> notre dame embarks on one of their biggest seasons, when they host nevada. fighting irish, coming off a 7-6 campaign. they're excited about it, and charlie weis is on the "hot seat." >> i'm the head-coach at notre dame, welcome to my world. that's just, that comes with the territory, being the head-coach, at notre dame. when you take that job, that's the part that comes with it. right now, we're just trying to beat nevada. that's the only thing on our mind. i could care less about any other things than beating nevada. that's all i want to do. i'm not worrying about hot seats and cold seats, just trying to beat nevada. >> a road date at michigan follows, and two more big ten foes follow, michigan state, and purdue. october 17th against southern cal and then bc, and pitt and uconn. >> indians and tigers, update that game. bottom of the 7th, detroit up, 8-5, polanco, and guillen, solo-homeruns, and inge, his 26th in the third. up three. >> meanwhile, minnesota is three-and-a-half games back of the tigers, in the a.l. central. chicago, six games back. right now, tied up at one, bottom of the fist. first homer since august 14th. >> rangers are starting to see their playoff hopes slowly fade a. how they're trying to bring them back and what happened to one of well, san diego, california, temperature about 82 degrees, partly cloudy. welcome to nats xtra pregame. we're set to take you up to first push with bob carpenter and rob double a little after 10:00 on this beautiful night in the nations capital. nationals trying to get back on track, but how about the performance last night for livan hernandez? >> got no help at all from the offense, but managed to keep the ball club in the game. it's a loss, but a complete game loss. they gave up two runs early, and we one run late on the home run by chase headley off the bench. bust he was locating the pitches extremely well. not going to throw the ball past anybody. bit you look at what he's done, and what you did in his previous start against the cubs, these are two to quality starts, and again, no victory to show for it, but he's done exactly what they need him to too. >> he throws pumps, looks very relaxed on the mound. he's been in every possible situation as a pitcher, so what he is doing has to rub off on these younger goes. >> well, you would hope so. you would hope they could come to him and say what did you do to this guy in the 4th insomething why did you throw this pitch? and at this point in his da career, keep in mind he broke in 1997, he's finally reached the point where he embraces that role of being a mentor. >> he talked about his performance last night, and then willy harris talked about livan's performance. >> i felt good the whole year, and come over here and try to do my job and give you a chance. sometimes it don't go the way you want it, but, you know, it's -- it's just important you give the team a chance to win. >> i mean, anytime you have a starting pitcher go 8 innings for you, he's keeping you in the game, and livan is a veteran guy, knows how to pitch, keeps off balance, and tip your hat to both of those guys. they both pitched well, and their guy pitched a little better, just because they got the runs. if we scored more runs than they did, our pitcher looks better. >> as you can see, the pitching for the ball club has not been a problem. the problem has been the bats need to get cooking again. >> three out of the last four starts are quality starts. they have maintained a cumulative era over those games of 3.38. they're getting twice as many strikeouts as walks, but they're not hitting the ball. >> phil, when you strike out in the the last 7 ball games, 49 nationals have gone down swinging or to taking a third called strike, that's not good. >> no, it's not good, but we have to give some credit to the opposing pitcher, obviously, but they're swinging at pitches outside 0 the strike zone, they miss. they're taking pitches, and there have been some absolutely hellacious sliders throne. but this is a team, as icy last night, can't seem to get their hitting in sync with their pitching. >> byron kerr is out in san diego, has a chance to visit with david eckstein, the second baseman for the padres, and rick's brother. good conversation with a guy who has made only, what, 2 errors, or one error in 400 and something chances this year? >> reporter: you're right, he's the younger brother, if you will, for rick eckstein, the hitting coach. when i talked to david about it, put a smile on his face when he talked about his brothers, and he's really proud of what rick has been able to do. >> it's not surprising that he's being successful over there. his ability to coach hitting and to see it is like no other. i've been around a lot of hitting coaches, but he has the ability to work with each individual hitter, with their only abilities, and help them out, and so, yeah, he's doing good, but his worth ethic and intensity is probably second to none. >> reporter: can you take in back to those days that's university of florida where you got to play side by side? >> yeah, he transfer toed in his senior year and we had the opportunity to play together in '96. he started in left, i started at second at the college world series. and then my senior year, he actually went straight into coaching. he was a volunteer coach my senior year, so having a chance to work under him, i was reaping the benefits at an early age of his great knowledge of especially hitting, and so, yeah, we had a lot of fun there. >> reporter: even as a world series mvp, he could give you instruction on hitting all the time? >> oh, my gosh, that's definitely who i turn to. he knows my swing better than anybody else. and a lot of it is just, like, hey, make sure you're in your right position, you know. we do stuff in the off-season so so that we develop key words and phrases that he can tell me that clicks something in my brain to get me back on track, so, yeah, it's something that's a very special relationship. >> reporter: we have talked so much about his fiery situation with the nationals, ask there was a key moment in the year where there is a called third strike on austin kearns, and he jumped out of the dugout, throughout his gum, and was, like, bad call, bad call! the players really appreciated that. >> oh, yeah, he sticks up for his players, and he's going to fight for them any chance he get this opportunity. i would like to sail he has my dad's personality, in the sense he will definitely go after you. i'm a little bit more laid back, not as fighting. i mean, he did all of the fighting for us in the family and for me, so, but, yeah, he's very intense, and he wants to see the best in his player where is be and if he feels like something is not right, that they've been wronged, he'll definitely stick up for them. >> reporter: so you guys both are better baseball players because you were so close in age you think? >> definitely, for my benefit, having a brother like him, who is two years older than me, always wanting to be around him and be able to hang with him, you had to be better, you know, because he wasn't going to let me play with his friends if i wasn't good enough, site challenged me to be better at an early age, and we -- there's a joke back at our high school that at some -- at one point in time, our shortstop got hurt, and i had to move ore to short and rick got to third, that we couldn't play side by side the position, because i made a mistake, he would have me by the shirt taking myofort the field. but he added the intensity, wanted me to be the best, and i think one of the main reasons i'm here in the big leagues is because of him pushing me and pushing me to be better. >> reporter: rick talk aid bout that moment in seminole high school history there where they got third ways and shortstop right next to each other, and said he remembers that was the last game they were ever paired right next to each others on the infield, because they started grabbing each other coming off. a great relationship between those two goes. baby to johnny and phil. >> thank you very much. good kid, good guy. been around a little bit, and he has won some championship. >> he certainly has. he can hit. he's hitting like .350 over the last 10 ball games for san diego. phil and i will step out, and when we come back, we'll look at the best month in the nationals win-loss record this year was the month of august. we have highlights of some great plays. you don't want to miss that when we come back after this. there are car radios... and then there is the voice-recognizing, text-out-loud-reading, turn-by-turn-direction-giving sync system... in the all-new ford taurus. sfx: ((sync beep)) please say a command. read message. highway 8 closed. update route. turn right on silver road. we speak car. we speak innovation. introducing the all-new taurus from ford. drive one. continues to be a very special beer. six weeks after jim started the business it took the best beer in america award. nobody had tried an american beer that had that kind of flavor. twenty years off, jim is still obsessed with boston lager. sam adams lager continues to win medals all over the world. that's pretty cool. august was a very good month for wins and losses for the ball club, phil. >> well, you look at 14 respect 15, you see the average 5 runs a game, and the club had an club era just a shade over 5. there you go, one game under .500. could have gone obviously the other wail with maybe a stronger bullpen effort, but that didn't happen, obviously. nonetheless, after threw i months in a row where they had five victories a month, it was great to have 14. >> let's go back to that month. sit back and enjoy and remember. >> breaking ball to zimmerman, throws in a hurry. inner ueves great throw. he's running, it's a strike. there's a strike, and mccuffen is out by a wide margin. two runs will score! that will score a run! tie this game with a base hit! adam dunn. this ball is gone! the nationals have dropped a six spot on the marlins. >> sometime zimmerman into the bullpen. >> dunn high into the air. >> they were barely done with one set of fire works, and they had to shoot off another. >> up the middle! base hit! scoring is guzman! nationals lead! >> here we go! >> and a chopper to zimmerman! has to let go of it. he does! >> what a terrific job for j.d. martin. >> everything was working pretty well for me. >> the nationals have won their 8th consecutive win. >> tough play zimmerman. he got him at first base! >> that ball is on the ground! a run scores, the game is tied. and now as they lob it in, here comes another run. safe! wilson steals a run! >> the squeeze, and it works! >> that is beautiful baseball when it works. >> dukes, left center. another nationals grand slam! >> and there it goes, willingham with another see you later! >> right into the glove often the pitcher, j.d. martin. >> i glove you, man. >> zimmerman, amazing one- handed pick. two outs, and ryan zimmerman plays an aggressively and perfectly. >> runner going, ground ball, shuffleles, got it! >> look at that double-play! one of our senior editors and all around good guys, steve fencek put tote that real nice feature. a lot of great plays in that month. you saw a glimpse of what's around the corner. >> look at the months, april, 5 wins, 2349 may, 2349 june, 2349 jewel. the turn around in august, phil, who would you say it's districtly attributable to jim wriggleman? because he's now 20. 25 as the interminimum management. mike rizzo making the move? what's the difference? >> i think it's mike rizzo. certainly wriggle man has played his part, but rizzo has remade the bullpen twice this season. and really if hey had had this bullpen in april and may, you would have had a lot more than 13 win foss a couple of months there, i think. you look at the number of guys who were with this club in april and may who are no longer with the club, and no longer even in the organization. this is -- you know, mike rizzo, he emembraced the job as interim gm. -deed the did what it's could. it's very difficult, the skill set required, to remake a bullpen during a season. it's a difficult job at best, and i think it's one of those things that mike, because of his experience in baseball, because he is so well respected inside the game, he knows how to work the waiver wire, you know, he's come up wig guys like mcdougal who have done a terrific job as the closer, and better set up guys, tyler cleppard finally brought up from the minor leagues. so i'll spit the credit 75/25. how is that? >> and if you look at the way the players have responded for jim riggleman, not that they didn't for manny acta, but there is something when dukes comes out and says i'm playing well because of my energy jim wriggleman, that says something. >> well, and he is a guy who came back from syracuse a different player. but it really comes down to the idea that this has been a work in progress. they have churned this roster from opening day until now, and they're still churning it, witness the ronny belliard deal. >> and it will continue to be a work in progress until they probably get to spring training next year. >> oh, i think so. and in 2010, you're looking at a team with a different starting rotation, likely a restructured bullpen. there's going to be different guys up the middle, i think, too. >> guess what time it is? >> let me guess. does it have something to do with hair? >> yes. i was looking at your hair, that's why i said that. time for the hold of the day, brought to you by just for men hair color. luke greger son has nine for the padres, might be adams with 7, and cheryl with the dodgers with six. just as those relievers have kept their team in the game, you, too, can stay in the game with just for men hair color. we will have tonight's starting line-ups when we come back. this is nats extra pregame. if you're like a lot of people, you have high blood pressure... and you have high cholesterol. you've taken steps to try and lower both your numbers. but how close are you to your goals? there may be more you can do. only caduet combines two proven medicines... in a single pill to significantly lower... high blood pressure and high cholesterol. in a clinical study of patients... with slightly elevated blood pressure and cholesterol, caduet helped 48% reach both goals in just 4 weeks. caduet is one of many treatment options, in addition to diet and exercise... that you can discuss with your doctor. caduet is not for everyone. it's not for people with liver problems... and women who are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant. to check for liver problems, you need simple blood tests. tell your doctor about any heart problems... and all other medications you are taking... or if you experience muscle pain or weakness, as they may be a sign of a rare but serious side effect. how close are you to where you want to be? ask your doctor if caduet can help you go... for both your goals. chase headley is batting .312, .311 the month of august, 0-1 against j.d. martin career wise. and the padres line-up looks this way. and for the nashs, justin maxwell just called up jed from syracuse. great catch earlier in the year reaching overruling the wall. university of maryland product. hit .242 for the chiefs. en 13 homers at syracuse. justin, of course, the nationals 2007 player of the year. he'll be leading off tonight in center field. this is the first start for justin since may. one guy who has made an impact is elijah dukes. he is our feature tonight in 20 in 20. elijah cubes trimmation has been evident for residents of nats down. he was able to lead the team in walks and rbi's last season. while only playing in 81 games. while the oh-9 son has had it's bumps in the road, patience has been a virtue for elijah. >> and dukes, left center! another national grand slam! >> dukes continues to solidify himself he as one of the best utility outfielders in all of baseball. the nats have found that good things come to those who wait. and when you take about those who wait, waiting for his bat to explode as he did, he has six rbis, a grand slam the last seven ball games, hits .435 on the road, and there's his numbers this year. 82 games played for elinia. >> this young man has played one more game this season than all of last season with the nats, 82 to 81. the old injury again. this time with ham spring problems and a thumb problem. he has more rbis than a year ago, and almost twice as many walks, and you think about who led the club in walks last year, you see how little they were walking last season, he is still vulnerable to pitches away. low and away. but he's been a lot more patient at the plate over this season, and really since he came back from syracuse, and of course they gave him that 35- game trial in center filed after lastings millage was sent back and later traded. went back to syracuse for a month and came back. he has been a much better defensive player in backfield, and obviously a lot more patient at the plate. >> and playing wait less than hundred percent knees, i might add, he's not even close to reaching your potential. >> you're right, but i think they have figured out that elijah is a guy who is going to have to have a day off every week. he's not going to be able to play 162 games a season, give him a day or two off every week in order to keep those knees fresh. >> as we mentioned, j.d. martin is the last nationals pitcher to get a win. they've lost four straight. he picks up the win against the cubs, and we'll talk a little about martin, who goes to the feed tonight at pet co in san diego. we'll be back in just a moment. ♪ ♪ i always feel like ♪ somebody's watching me. ...it's the money you could be saving with geico. ♪ who's watching? ♪ tell me who's watching. (muffled music) (announcer) it's right here, it's easy... ♪ i always feel like somebody's watching me. ♪ it's the money you could be saving with geico. there are car radios... and then there is the voice-recognizing, text-out-loud-reading, turn-by-turn-direction-giving sync system... in the all-new ford taurus. sfx: ((sync beep)) please say a command. read message. highway 8 closed. update route. turn right on silver road. we speak car. we speak innovation. introducing the all-new taurus from ford. drive one. >> idea is is a strike-thrower. he has great command of the strike zone. two and four-seam fastball. throws a cut fastball, a decent curveball, slider. scouts say the guy know thousand compete. does his best to keep the club in the game. struggles against some left- handed hitter, but an overachiever in general. a a guy who has worked very hard to make it to the national leagues. >> and his been pretty successful on the road, too, phil. >> yeah, he's obviously a little more comfortable on the road, and i'm not sure why that's the case, but his er is a a full point less. again, he pitches to contact. >> you talk about feeling comfortable on the road, he told byron kerr he's feelable comfortable on the mound period. >> yeah, definitely feeling comfortable. it's nice to get some of those wins under my bette and everything, and definitely starting to feel more comfortable out here. >> i talked to you before about your curveball, just seems to devastating when it really gets rolling. how are you feeling with that pitch? >> i file all right with it. it's ban little funky lately, but it's feeling better, and you start throwing it more, and it's coming around, yeah. >> when you get a win at wrigley field, against a team that was above .500, that had to give you cornify difference to go through through that line- up, all of those good hitter. >> yeah, and all of that history there at that park, and to get a win there was great to top it off. >> j.d., 25, 26 years of age now. he'll start, and clayton richards goes for the pads tonight. >> big kid, 6'4", 240 pounds, low 90s fastball with sink. average breaking ball, below average change-up. last outing against atlanta got bombed. hopefully he'll pitch like that tonight. >> and he will be getting his 7th start tonight, and let's hope the nationals can get right back on track. they'll play the rubber game tomorrow. there is j.d. loosening up. thanks for joining us here on masn with our nats xtra pregame. bob and rob coming up. hey mom i need some minutes. i just gave you some at the restaurant. yea i know. i threw them out. they were old so... old! they are rollover minutes. they are as good as new. ya know not everyone gets to keep their unused minutes. and these days we can't afford to be wasteful. saving minutes... ...saves money. yea. 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(bob cannon) boston lager-- the proof is in the taste.  . >> bob: a well played game last night. extraordinary effort on defense, including highlight reel plays on both sides, and perfect relief for san deago, facing the minimum down the stretch. tonight, let's go for another spin, and the padres may get crushed this time. clear skies in san diego on this evening of nationals baseball against the padres, at petco park. the nats need something to clear up against these guys. they've only beaten them 5 out of 25 times as the washington nationals over the last nearly five years. bob carpenter, rob dibble, and tonight we'll talk a little pitching, because despite this losing streak that's going on, the starters have been going fairly deep. >> rob: well, and it's been like this most of the year, when the hitters are scoring a lot of runs, we can't pitch, and now that we're pitching well, we can't score a lot of runs. mock on sunday, an excellent outing, sis innings pitched, a couple of runs on four hits and another loss for the nationals, and then last night, an outstanding complete game performance by livan hernandez, and they lose 3-1. the nats have won five of this pitchers 8 starts, but he's going five innings. so the plus is, they're winning his starts, but he's not getting past the 5th inning, so hopefully j.d. martin can go deeing into the ball game tonight. >> peter maybe pete orr can contribute tonight. he has been playing well, and great last night. @x@0@p@0@6p)  . >> bob: padres are .500 at home after their win last night. they nats 8th game of a 9-game road trip, and they've only won 2. earlier this year for the that ins, 3 for 24, three stolen bases in three attempts, 11 strikeout, and that's been his big problem all year, both at this level and aaa, and he will fly outer to the right fielder to start the game. southwest line-up for the rest of the nationals.    . >> bob: pete o last night, and alberto gonzalez gets the number 2 assignment tonight. and alberto gonzalez is now down to .253. the paw trays came to washington july 24th, he bass batting .-- he was batting .308. lots of cool bats in this line- up right now. and gonzalez unfortunately hit the pitcher and goes right to david eckstein. 1-4-3 for the second out. gonzalez unlucky. >> rob: clayton richards, first string finally. he was a backup quarterback at michigan in college. he will three pitches from everywhere. top, side, three-quarters, throws five pitches for strikes, but usually has one inning in every start where he will meltdown, walk a bunch of people, and give up a lot of runs. >> bob: the nats can onlyhope. ryan zimmerman, two outs, bases empty. one for four with a double last night. 150 hits now. 9th in the league. ryan would have to have a really, really hot september to reach 200 hits. 50 hits in an month almost impossible. and a high pop fly, right side elijah. then nats bats are not making any noise on the west coast yet. j.d. martin goes to work against the padres. n the dark. no peanuts or nothin'. and then if your bag wants to bring one of its little bag friends for company, they charge another $25. that's just plain mean. why do they hate your bags? at southwest airlines, bags fly free. grab your bag. it's on! ( ding ) there are car radios... and then there is the voice-recognizing, text-out-loud-reading, turn-by-turn-direction-giving sync system... in the all-new ford taurus. sfx: ((sync beep)) please say a command. read message. highway 8 closed. update route. turn right on silver road. we speak car. we speak innovation. introducing the all-new taurus from ford. drive one. i've never been all that great with my money. probably because i've never had much. but now that i'm making more, it's time to be a little smarter about how i manage it.. with the calendar, i can schedule all my payments. and when funds are low, danger days help me stay out of the red. i can also transfer money with just a click and a drag. so maybe i'm better with money than i thought. introducing the virtual wallet from pnc, a high-definition, online view of your money. pnc. leading the way.  . >> bob: david eckstein 2-1. martin working quickly. eckstein on a breaking ball up. 17-year veteran wally bell has the plate tonight. david eckstein can't reap it. second hardest man in the national league to strikeout. >> bob: he doesn't have that many men on base in front of him. j.d. martin must have a lot of fans here tonight. they love what he's to doing, and big adam dunn leads off shortly. ♪ (tucci) only at&t has the best selection of full keyboard phones. like the lg neon, just $29.99 after mail-in rebate.  . >> bob: hot shot. david eckstein from the out field grass.    josh willingham a bat. 6 for his last 23, and one for his last 18. pardon me on willingham, 5 for 33. >> rob: northrop grandmothermond here. pitch is up in the strike zone, in. perfectly placed by richard. he can run the ball from 91 to 93 four-seem. >> here is elijah dukes. he's had a good road trip, hitting 10 for 23. getting base hits of all varieties. we've seen elijah stay on this trip and hit the ball the other way a lot of times, and the count is 2-0. >> bob: that's a hard breaking ball down and in. and this does not look like the 14th pitching staff in the league from an era standpoint the way they're throwing the ball. >> >> well, richards is getting more starts. >> bob: duke coming over, and elijah beats him, then the nats will get an extra bag as thely to bounces into the seats. it will be ruled a base hit and an airer on cabrera, his 9th of the year. >> rob: when you're playing that deep, high chopper, and you just see him falling down the line as fast as possible, right out of the box. hustle, got him the single, and it also got the bad throw to go into the throw. >> bob: you might have noticed that 1-0sf at phi. hamels threw a two-hitter in philadelphia tonight. the nats only have one hit through two, as bard grounds out. no score in san diego. floppy hats at ten o'clock. mm-hmm. closest to the track... but farthest from reality. excuse me, sir. pardon me, mam. good honest beer at a tasty price... is neck and neck with hoity toity atmosphere. sometimes you win, sometimes you lose... and ya'll are going to find out today... because you're about to lose this high life. whoo, your hat almost hit me in my face. we want to hand this out to the people... really watching the race. it's a liberating landslide... blowout victory for common sense. there are car radios... and then there is the voice-recognizing, text-out-loud-reading, turn-by-turn-direction-giving sync system... in the all-new ford taurus. sfx: ((sync beep)) please say a command. read message. highway 8 closed. update route. turn right on silver road. we speak car. we speak innovation. introducing the all-new taurus from ford. drive one.  >> we've got some guys play down there that will come up here, but right now, they are getting the opportunity to play in a playoff atmosphere. their potentially going be to be if the mayoffs, they've got a shot at it, so they're going to play some in real meaningful games there. our roster, we're pretty well taken care of here right now. >> he said october 7th looks like the logical date. mike rizzo told me they're lucky to call up five players, pitchers, goes. yer and four >> thank you, byron. there has beensome --b:'s adc the minor league? >> bob: yes, there is. how about that? and a breaking ball, center cut. -- for the wall. and it's well-pla max, and guzman safe. the padres, before the all star break, were hitting .233. since the break, they're hitting .260. second best improvement in baseball behind oakland, and they came alive on their just completed road trip when they hit .318. actually two road trips. guzman coming, dukes air mails the throw. on the fly, to the backup pitcher. >> rob: elijah comes up, drops that right shoulder. and, as you said backing up behind home plate. >> bob: j.d. martin sawdaylightt with heading for the bag. >> rob: nice play, almost got him at second base. have to have that worked out ahead of time with your shortstop. >> bob: another hard hit ball right at pete orr. runner moving to third with one out. padres are gashing the baseball right now. a week from sunday, dollar kids day. you can purchase up to four tickets for children, ages 2 to 12 for a dollar i've, with the purchase of one full price adult ticket in any seating area, except the president's club, diamond club and the grand stand. low and away, the county is even to hundley, on an 8-game hitting streak. there is that up and in. count is full. >> rob: well, he recognizes this pitch early. and he just lays off of it, because he's already thrown that twice in this count. and he's thrown those sliders to the outside, so -- >> oh, that's a good breaking ball, low and away, got him. >> rob: perfect slider from the middle out again. >> bob: that brings on richard. 2 for 15 career. but with a couple of rbis.  x padres break. out on top. you say, "on." it's... no, not yet. it back that way. it's on. ( ding ) book now at southwest.com.  . >> bob: this is one of the best ever plays we've seen this year. >> rob: that's just an instinct play. one step, no chance to transfer it from your glove to your hand. >> bob: pete orr, 8 for 15. 5th game upon his return. >> bob: up next is j.d. martin. 3 for 13 as a big league hitter. nothing but strikes from richard on the first two. and he throws a breaking ball town and in. second strikeout to get him. we're going to wrap up this series tomorrow. and the road trip where we're coming back home. nats and padres, 3:30 eastern tomorrow. need 0 use your speed here, a couple of outs, try to get something going. >> the that have one infield hit in three inning in san diego. we've got a ton of stuff we've gotta pay for. and a few things we want to pay for. on top of it all, we're still trying to put away some money for the future. with the wish list, we can save up for anything we want. and still have enough to cover the day-t0-day. plus, the savings engine helps our money grow. and that's something we need and want. introducing the virtual wallet from pnc, a high definition, online view of your money. pnc. leading the way. there are car radios... and then there is the voice-recognizing, text-out-loud-reading, turn-by-turn-direction-giving sync system... in the all-new ford taurus. sfx: ((sync beep)) please say a command. read message. highway 8 closed. update route. turn right on silver road. we speak car. we speak innovation. introducing the all-new taurus from ford. drive one.  . >> bob:  1-0pads, top of th third completed with another 1, 2, 3 by the that ins, and it's the top of the third. goes high with a fastball.   that's 12:00 8:00 drop righ there. jo ask & when he's going good, he works ahead, you get to your secondary pitches, but when you're not getting aid head, tough to get to the secondary pitches and get them out of the strike zone, you have to throw them for strikes. a lot of guys that will throw some really meatball type off- speed stuff that gets ripped all over the yard. >> bob: david eckstein recently extended on his contract here into next year. that's one second baseman who will not be available in 2010. i think you would call him a very young 33. bouncing ball, dunn to his right. nice hop. j.d. martin covers, and two outs. nationals one run last night, 7 runs the entire st. louis series. >> bob: well, they ran into some very good pitching there. that's a team going to the playoffs, but this is a team that, like ourselves, has trouble in the pitching department, and the offensive department. >> rob: i had the advantage of television when i was playing, i would watch while i did my stretching and my five-pound dumbbell extra exercise and stuff, would watch the strike zone on tv. i would make sure i made a mental note of whether it was anous order inside type umpire that night, go out there, and use that when you got in the ball game. >> so you had umpire tapes. >> bob: front door, and a strike. 73. tooo soft tube change-up. those last two pitches, two fastballs are he government ahead, why not a breaking ball in the dirt? why do you come back with an 89 mile an hour fastball and try to trick the guy. >> let him rose the same rotation as a breaking ball, just out of the zone. throw three breaking balls in a row. two for strikes, one out of the strike talk, and put the guy out of there. >> bob: a two, out walk to gonzalez, and j.d. martin takes care of business. gonzalez, alberto, and dunn, straight ahead. úú÷÷  . >> bob: gonzalez, da k ber don't ever -- cabrera. don't ever slow down and presume the ball is caught, and cabrera will turn it into a 6- 3. alberto gonzalez has hit two shots tonight, and he's been robbed twice. >> rob: gonzalez stopped in the middle of the line. gets thrown out by a couple of steps. like i said, never assume. >> bob: zimmerman drills one to right center. heading for the sandbox, and it's off the bottom of the wall! >> rob: ryan drills the ball,, and we know it doesn't carry that well here at night either. >> rob: up the wall, take a double right there. >> bob: adam dunn. four for to 28. >> rob: looks like a cut fast balance right there. >> bob: dun's last rbi, 8th inning solo homer in st. louis saturday. >> bob: sweep beslider. >> rob: is adrian gonzalez drew his 100th walk last inning. 2-1 to adam dunn. change-up. rbi hungry josh willingham next. and dunn will take the walk. that will be his 100 first. and the nats have two on with one out. willingham struck out swinging first time tonight. they need one gapper here, or a long ball to really get this thing going. and when your numbers 4 and 5 hitters are a combined 9 for their last 62, things are going to to ash little quiet in that line-up. >> bob: hot swinging elijah dukess next. got him on a fastball, right abe the inside corner. two outs. >> rob: he didn't hit his target, but the still got the strikeout. the nats are deny toed again. one run in 13 innings here in san diego. ry first word was... aflac! aflac! find out more at aflacforbusiness.com there are car radios... and then there is the voice-recognizing, text-out-loud-reading, turn-by-turn-direction-giving sync system... in the all-new ford taurus. sfx: ((sync beep)) please say a command. read message. highway 8 closed. update route. turn right on silver road. we speak car. we speak innovation. introducing the all-new taurus from ford. drive one.  >> addison reed, matt park couple of teammates of strasberg. they will variety with byron later this evening. a little san diego state flavor for you. aflac trivia. national league record for fielding personal by a third baseman in a single season. dodgers have scored a couple, and lead arizona 2-1. yankees won again tonight. their 5th in a row. number one in baseball with 84 wins. 

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