people in the very near future will be a combination of blended and online learning. >> host: and when you talk about online learning, what are some of the components of that? >> guest: so it, in a formal setting when it's a for credit, there's usually online content and a teacher you interact with, and it's usually done as a cohort, so there's a group of students that you're engaging with. but it's all at a distance. some students attend full-time online classes and some part time. so a high school student may take three classes at their high school and take two classes online. >> host: how extensive right now is online digital learning in the u.s.? >> guest: well, in k-12 just at secondary schools, high schools primarily, there's probably five million students that took online classes. so that's a pretty significant percentage of the 50 million u.s. k-12 students that are out there. so it's growing very, very rapidly. most districts report either having or planning to add an online program. and it's becoming the norm in higher education. most students report taking at least a organization of their course load online. >> host: you write in your book "getting smart" that we can improve the quality of education in the u.s. without a big increase in investment. how's that? >> guest: we do spend more than just about anybody in the world, and i'm very confident that by incorporating new tools that really leverage great teaching, that we can dramatically increase achievement levels in this country that will require some capital investments. we need to make sure that schools and homes have good access to broadband, we need to make sure that every student has a connected take-home learning device, we these to create great learning opportunities for teachers as well. but after we've made those one-time investments to really change the nature of the learning environment, there's no question that we can operate schools for similar budgets that we have today but with much better outcomes for kids and much better working conditions for teachers. >> host: mr. vander ark, how did you get interested in on line education and education in general? >> guest: so i was a business executive until 1993. i had the opportunity to become a school superintendent in the seattle area in 1994, ask that was the year that wikipedia was launched and www showed up on the cover of magazines. i was really visiting my daughter's classroom in 1994 where she had a teacher that understood the shift from '93 to 94 was the shift from information scarcity to information abundance. he created a really rich, project-based learning environment where kids really could take advantage of the research tools and then could produce really high quality learning products. and just watching that environment was really inspiring to me, and it led my district to adopt the one-to-one technology in all of our secondary schools and to launch the first k-12 online school in the country in 1995. >> host: what is personal digital learning? >> guest: well, it's the promise of being able to create an individual learning trajectory for every student, that we can increasingly help kids learn in, at their learning level but also in the best learning modality and the best style. some kids are going to learn best with games, and some are going to learn best in a cooperative learning experience. really getting to know our kids and being able to customize the experience. and i think that level of customization will mean that very soon most students will learn more per hour and that the improved motivation of high engagement activities will mean more hours per day. and you put those together, more learning per hour and more hours per day and per year, and i think that's the formula for real breakthroughs in achievement levels. >> host: so, tom vander ark, what's the reaction of school districts across the country? maybe a couple of examples to this online learning wave that's happening? >> guest: well, let's take houston. it was just called the best urban school district. they've taken a thoughtful approach to improvement based on all that we've learned in the 20 years about high achieving schools, and they've added a component of blended learning. so they're combining improvement and innovation to create a really exciting school environment in houston. all of their high schools are becoming one-to-one, that means every student will have a laptop to take home, and that's really creating an engaging and extended learning environment for every student in houston. i also love many of the charter school networks that are sort of custom designed around the new learning opportunities that exist. some at public schools in the bay area is a great example of a network of high schools which combine a playlist -- which we think of as for music -- but playlist of learning experiences that prepare kids for really interesting projects. so that's a neat learning environment for kids, and it allows teachers really instead of just a sole focus on basic skills to really be able to work with groups of students on higher order critical thinking to encourage them the bring their voice to their writing. it allows them to do community-connected, authentic, really interesting work. >> host: so a lot of private investment going into public schools? >> guest: a ton of private investment. it's really exciting how things have changed since about 2008. i helped launch the first education venture fund in the world called learn capital, and since then we've seen other venture funds launched. we've seen foundations get into the innovation agenda. the combination of private and philanthropic capital is really fueling an explosion of really exciting learning tools for next generationing schools. generation schools. >> host: now, the forward of your book, "getting smart," was written by former west virginia governor bob wise. why was that? >> guest: bob was a great education governor, and he's been a an even better education advocate after leaving office. both governor wise and governor jeb bush joined together in 2010 to create digital learning now, a forward-leaning education policy platform for state leaders. and so both of those ex-governors have made a terrific impact since leaving office and have been real advocates for digital learning. >> host: what did governor wise do in west virginia? >> guest: governor wise expanded many digital learning opportunities at the time we thought of it as distance learning and video learning. he connected career education to schools, created dual enrollment opportunities so kids could earn college credit opportunities in high school. he expanded teacher professional development. and since leaving, governor wise took over the alliance for excellent education and has really been the most important advocate for great high schools and college and career preparation for young people in america. >> host: is there a difference between how public schools and private k-12 schools are approaching digital learning? >> guest: not really. you would think that private be schools -- private schools would be a source of innovation, but by and large they haven't been. most remain relatively traditional, although most are beginning to incorporate technology tools. so at expensive private schools every kid has a laptop, but the learning environments are, in most cases, relatively traditional. i would say we haven't learned as much as i would have hoped from the private school space. on the other hand, the really, rah radically cost-constrained charter networks of california have proven to be a real source of innovation. they were forced to do more with less, and as a result aspire, and that's the largest elementary network in california, and rocketship, a super high performing blended network have all rused extraordinary -- produced extraordinary results with these new blending environments. >> host: walk us through how a math course would work online. >> guest: well, it's an exciting blend that personalizes learning. khan academy is an interesting example. we think of khan for his videos, but he's really taught us every student should master each skill can before moving on to the next skill. so in a classroom that uses khan academy, they might also use another visual, game-based product like st past. and -- math. and students would learn in several different ways and demonstrate that they've mastered a particular skill before they've moved on to the next skill. a teacher would be able to monitor the progress of students that are all doing different activities and be able to group students together for small group instruction or to create a project that might apply what students are learning. so the teacher becomes or -- becomes more of a conductor of learning where kids are using tools to use basic skills and where teachers can intervene as necessary or help kids practice and apply what they're learning. >> host: in fact, you write that social networks will replace the classroom. >> guest: well, what i mean by that is students in a social learning last form can be in eight different groups during the day. so these are, i think, dynamic grouping will replace age cohorts. so instead of simply grouping kids by birthday because it was the only way we had to manage school, kids will be in a leveled math group, and in an english group, they might be in a reading group, they'll be in a very diverse project group that is working on a prompt in -- on a project in the community. so school will become much more dynamic, and kids will be in groups for periods of time, but they shift easily and naturally. rather than kids being in a classroom way ahead or way behind, the grouping will flow much more dynamically as students progress. >> host: tom vander ark, what was the school district that you were superintendent of? how large was it, where was it located? >> guest: it's a district between seat and tacoma, it's about 22,000 students, and today it's a high poverty, high challenged district with about 120 languages spoken. >> host: and so, but about 22,000 students. >> guest: right. >> host: and what kind of online or digital programs did you introduce during your time? >> guest: so we launched an online school called internet academy. it's still one of the active statewide programs here in washington state, but we also have connections acad hawaii and k- -- academy and k-12. what could be better for washington students, and this is true in most states, they could use better part-time access so that their high school experience could be a mixture of blended classes on site and online classes. >> host: do you foresee in the future that our current structure of superintendent, different principals at schools and the physical buildings themselves could go away? >> guest: so learning is very relational, and education is very communal meaning most of us learn best in a community. parents also find the custodial aspect of school to be really important, so for all of those reasons, for the foreseeable future most students will go to a place called school. although i think as students move into the upper division of high school, that for most of them they'll spend part of their time learning online. and that's definitely already true in postsecondary, that most college experiences are with multiple providers, some on site and some online. so what digital learning is doing is, particularly for older students, it's expanding access to courses. so what should be true today is that every high school student in america should have access to every advanced placement course, to college credit opportunities, to every world language, to a white range of electives. these all can be offered very cost effectively and with very high quality for no more than we're spending today. so we'll see. i think much more, a hutch bigger change at -- a much bigger change at the high school level than the elementary level. >> host: now, you touched on this earlier, but how is the role of the teacher evolving with digital learning? >> guest: well, i'm excited about what this means for teachers. the profession has been very difficult and very isolating for individual teachers, and what it will mean for them in a blended environment is that they'll work on a team, a team with teachers of different level. they'll have access to a mentor teacher that will support their learning. their own learning will be blended. it will be part of it will be on a team, but part of it will be an individual learning plan where they access a playlist of digital resources. the other exciting thing is that there's many new leadership opportunities for teachers within their school and outside their school. teachers can teach on line. teachers can even -- even therapists can teach online. we're seeing really great results in online speech therapy, for example. in louisiana a hath teacher can become a -- a math teacher can become a statewide provider. it's opening up new ways that they can extend their impact, that they can earn more and remain as a teacher if that's what they really want to do. so it's an exciting advance for teachers as well as students. >> host: is there a threat to local control with digital learning? >> guest: in many respects digital learning is sort of -- [inaudible] to how we've thought about local control because it's silly to limit access to learning. in the past education was limited to the opportunity down the street at the local school, but now particularly for high school students their learning is this bundle of digital learning services, some that are formal and paid for by the state and some that are informal. the resources that students and parents find online. so it is becoming important that states make sure that every family have access to a variety of full and part-time online learning and that districts really remain open to those possibilities. >> host: the fcc is currently working on the issue of the e-rate. how important is that to school districts? >> guest: well, it's been important historically. it's been how many districts wired up to provide the digital learning opportunity at school. it has, the regulations have become dated, the process has become bureaucratic and clunky, and the funding really hasn't kept up with inflation. and chairman wheeler, his proposal that he put out last week, i think, really does a nice job of addressing those. it increases the amount of funding, and it streamlines the regulations, and it begins to take into account that we are now in this mobile learning society where learning isn't just at school, but mobile learning is where, anywhere a student or a family is connected. >> host: where's the resistance to digital learning? >> guest: well, i think there's resistance in a couple camps. there are definitely some people that want to keep doing things the way they've done. there are some people that feel threatened by some of the changes that are occurring. some districts don't want to see budget dollars move to an online provider, for example, so there is a bit of parochial thinking when it comes to online learning. the other problem is that it's just, it's still a bit difficult to transform your school. it's just hard work. the tool set is still a couple years from being elegantly simple, and i think what we'll see a year from now is that it becomes much easier for teachers to adopt a set of tools and create really powerful learning experiences for students. and that will really make it, i think, undeniable for schools. but this isn't a choice. our system is being enveloped by these digital learning opportunities, and individual teachers are incorporating them into their classroom at an extraordinary rate. there's 5 million kids and teachers -- 35 million can kids and teachers on ed moto, a free learning platform. so teachers and kids are blending their own learning, and they're sort of dragging all of us along with them. >> host: where does the u.s. stand when it comes to digital learning worldwide? >> guest: well, we're a leader when it comes to online learning, and that's particularly true in higher education. we are a leader in terms of creating these new, interesting, i would call them next generation learning models in high school. we're probably lagging when it comes to broadband. there are other countries like korea that have much better broadband access, so we're clearly a leader when it comes to developing new education technology. so we are a leader in many respects. i think this can be a very important growth category for the u.s. economy to create and export learning technologies and learning experiences. >> host: what is "getting smart," mr. sander ark? -- vander ark? >> guest: we're an advocacy or the. we're trying to help people understand what the future looks like and make it happen sooner and better. >> host: and this is something you run, correct? >> guest: i do. and we just are wrapping up a new book called "smart cities" that explains what every city should be doing to take full advantage of these digital learning opportunities. >> host: now, when it comes to silicon valley and some of the larger tech companies, are they on board? are they donating computers, etc., to schools? >> guest: i would say they're not on board to the ec tent they should -- extent they should be. there are many technology canes selling -- technology companies selling equipment to schools, but unfortunately, most of the products that are being sold to schools today are still consumer products. so if you look at apple, the ipad has been extremely popular with schools, but it's still a consumer consumption device. it's not designed well for schools, it doesn't have very good teacher management capacities. i would say a company like google has made really interesting resources available for free. microsoft be has made -- microsoft has head a number of education resources available for free. neither of them has really stepped into the platform space to help schools integrate this successfully, so we're seeing, we're seeing increased interest and a few companies stepping in, but they could do a lot more both as paying attention to education as a market and also philanthropically. >> host: tom vander ark, where are the land mines? what's the downside of digital learning? >> guest: well, one that i have just recently written about it's as education becomes unbundled and as students assemble learning from many different sources within the school day and outside the school day, it's going to become much more important to provide really strong guidance and southern for our high school kids. so the guidance isn't as good as it should be today, and i think as we expand digital learning opportunities, we need to make sure that there's a sustained adult relationship at school that's helping them make really good digital choices that really prepares them for college and careers. >> host: tom vander ark, are there more opportunities for cheating with online learning? >> guest: not any more than there are in today's classroom. there's lots of cheating that happens in the good old-fashioned way, passing papers around. but i think the online providers are pretty smart about this and thinking hard about how they verify student identity. the people doing online testing are paying close attention to this, so i don't think it's an increased risk. >> host: are textbooks obsolete? >> guest: definitely. districts shouldn't buy textbooks. it's silly. i was in a texas district last week and helped them decide not to make a $10 million adoption, and instead to increase student access by using laptops and tablets and then to use open content. there's so much really great free and open content, and it's dynamically refreshed and often much more engaging. so techbooks really don't make sense -- textbooks really don't make sense. if schools are going to pay for content, it should be smart content. it should be adaptive like dreambox with, a seattle-area company, so that there's embedded assessment and teachers are getting lots of data from it, and it's game based and highly engaging. so if districts pay for content, it ought to be really smart content. not flat and sequential content like textbooks. >> host: so, tom vander ark, in your work how important is the federal department of education? >> guest: it became very important in 2001 with the passage of no child left behind. it sort of framed up a nationwide approach to school accountability. the congress has failed now for 13 years to update and renew that law. it's made the federal government a bit less relevant. during the recession the federal government invested heavily in a stimulus program which included some grant programs called race to the top that results in some significant reforms. but without reauthorization of federal legislation, states are becoming much more important. and as i described earlier, the rise of digital learning makes authorizing statewide providers a very important role. so in u.s. education, state government is really important. >> host: so ten years from now walk us through your dream classroom. >> guest: well, i'll walk you through my dream city. i just finished a book on cities and the way i think cities should work is that families ought to have access to a variety of educational opportunities. all of them incorporating technology, blending the west of face-to-face -- the best of face-to-face and online. and then they should have access to a variety of full and part-time online learning opportunities. they ought to be this a city where -- in a city where everybody has access to broadband, rich and poor alike. both at home and in public facilities. so broadband is going to be very important. and i think students ought to have access to many out-of-school learning activities where they have a chance to make stuff and to be creative, to apply their learning. young people ought to have access to -- they really should experience success in college and work and community service before they leave high school so that suggests a highly engaged community where partners are helping schools provide really rich learning opportunities for kids. so this is an environment that's highly engaging, very community-connected and where kids and families get the support they need to suck is seed. to succeed. >> host: tom vander ark is the author of "getting smart: how digital learning is changing the world." thanks for your time. >> guest: thankings. >> c-span, created by america's cable companies 35 years ago and brought to you as a public service by your local cable or satellite provider. >> c-span2, providing live coverage of the u.s. senate floor proceedings and key public policy events. and every weekend, booktv. now for 15 years the only television network devoted to nonfiction books and authors. c-span2, created by the cable tv industry and brought to you as a public service by your local cable or satellite provider. watch us in hd, like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. >> former vice president dick cheney will be joined by his wife and daughter today for a constitution with politico chief white house correspondent mike allen. they're expected to talk about a range of topics including u.s. border security and the 2014 midterm elections. that'll be live starting at noon eastern here on c-span2. >> today a house veterans affairs committee hearing to examine the process for evaluating disability and benefit claims. this is one of a series of hearings investigating veterans health care after reports about wait times for veterans seeking medical care. live coverage begins at 7:30 p.m. eastern on c-span2. and you can comment on the hearing as it happens on twitter using the hashtag c-span chat or post a comment on our facebook page. on saturday the nation's governors gathered for the second day of their summit in nashville focusing on an education system to provide students with the skills they need for today's work force. the guest speaker was the head of operations for an international consulting firm. he talked about what states can do to compete in the job market. oklahoma governor mary fallin made introductory remarks. this is about an hour and ten minutes. >> good morning, everyone. i think we had such great timesh last night that everyone's a little slow coming in this morning. [laughter] but good morning. we're glad to be able to start our saturday session off. i'm governor mary fallin, i'm