trying to get more there and balance. some people are probably worried about that. you know we get attacked and copied at the same time by the same people. basically it is fear that we are doing something they are not doing. and they try to pretend that we are doing something political that they are not doing. but that is nonsense. we have been around eight years. we are not retracting stories. we do not have a former attorney general looking into is to try and determine how we screwed it up. we are just doing the news every day. >> when did you know that you had made it on top? besides ratings, when did you get a sense that things were working? >> i do not know exactly when i knew it was working. but the first time we really beat cnn for an evening and went down an announcement in the newsroom, the staff was standing there cheering. and i said you know these people have a lot of spirit! and they want to win. and they're going to win. that probably gave me a good feeling about the future. >> back to the first moment that you can remember when this became an idea. >> murdoch and i were talking. he asked me if i could create a news channel. and i know that he had tried and in the past but it did not quite work out the way he hoped. my thinking had a vision that the american people were underserved in news. so i began to look at that. and i said sure, if you can get distribution i can create a channel. >> what year? >> 96. >> why did he come to you? >> i was available. i decided to leave nbc at that time. america's talking they were going to turn over to msnbc and i decided that i wanted to leave. i was available. i've done some consulting with murdoch in the past. i liked him. i do not know why he came to me. i think that my primary qualification for running a news channel was that i do not have a degree in journalism. i have life experience that goes pretty far beyond all of that.>> you know that drives people crazy when you say that. being in our business. >> it drives them crazy because they do not like to think that life experience is the equivalent. but i know people who have been to journalism schools.i speak in journalism schools.i have known journalists. i've been on the upper side of them from time to time. i know how they think and i actually think that life experience matters.and i ran a business channel before i did this. it was business news. i view that as a part of news. >> how would you defined journals and? >> bringing stories editing them and bringing them with as many facts as you can to get through to people. it is a simple craft. it is not brain surgery. it is simple but it is not easy. to do it right is hard work. >> what do they teach in journalism school? >> i think they get too political from time to time. i think they draw conclusions for students. at least many of the ones that i have spoken to. they do not necessarily teach them the simple things of gather all the facts, present all of the facts. i think in many cases they have agendas. i was asked by a university to give them some money. i went to the university and taught a couple of classes and interviewed a couple of students.i said i'm not going to give you any money. until you can graduate somebody who likes america. that is not a bad country you know. and i said as soon as you get me someone like that i will give you some money. based on what they are learning, you would think that we live -- >> what evidence did you have in the school that the teachers did not like america? >> everything is negative. everything is about look, 95 percent of our people are working for the other five percent are basically pretty well taken care of by the government. healthcare is not bad here. most people who want surgery did not go to canada. they tried to come here. this is a country where everybody's trying to get in and no one is trying to get out. so it just occurs to me at some of that ought to be taught in context. not that we do not have problems. not that we don't have problems in the cities and poverty and other things. but this is a society that has cured and will continue to cure many of those problems. i think that the context of all of that has to be taught in i do not get being taught very often. >> if you were to start your own journalism school, how would you teach it? >> i would just teach to do the facts, be fair, make sure that you have the same weight if there is more than one point of view. to every point of view. i was so our journalists, reach out to people you do not agree with and make sure it is in that story. it is simple stuff but you have to do it. i see the other networks. aside david west and the other day take a shot at fox news. david is in the process of trying to turn himself into a corporate lawyer trying to be a great journalists but he has some problems. he wanted leonardo dicaprio to be a journalist for him.he is the guy that had his head in politics during the election and basically said they did not have to be fair. i find that odd. i think david has a lot of work to do in the house before he was out taking a shot at us. >> is there anything wrong with a news organization having a point of view? >> i think there is a difference between news and analysis and opinion. what i saw them do recently, they did a news meeting at stanford. you know heads of news at stanford is sort of redundant. but in any case, no. as long as you label it as you know you know this is an opinion show. but what they are trying to do is say to fox news, mixing opinion and in fact is simply not true.i mean if you want shop -- shep smith. -- the networks for years have mixed these things. and now they are claiming that we mix it when in fact bill o'reilly is the newest analysis show. or greta or someone else. the heart is that we do is not in question. we have not retracted a story in eight years. >> do you know you are on top? >> sure! i get up every day you know, playing it like we are 20 miles behind. i will never change. it is just my background. i grew up in ohio. i dug ditches for a living. i wanted to get out of there. i always thought you know, the only way to do it is hard work and you have to be better and smarter than the next guy. there is no other magic. we have probably one third of the personnel at cnn that we have always have from day one. >> family people are there? >> if you look at real answers and add on i think we have close to 4000. i always tell our people that we have to be three times as good and four times as good as they are. >> how much did it cost you to operate? >> i read in businessweek and they are usually wrong and they were this time. the cnn spends i forget how they phrase it, is a 300 million to do the news or something. and fox news spent 65 million therefore ours was inferior. first of all, i do not know how to make that equation. secondly, the numbers are false. totally wrong. and i do not know what they mean by that do the news. i took that newsgathering?all of the shows? anchor salaries? it was just a mess! of a journalistic article actually. but you know we spend less than they do because they have cnn international. or we call it -- and we do not do that. we have one child, fox news. reported all over the world and whoever wants to can see it. so we spend less. but i don't think you can necessarily equate, we have not missed any stories. we were the first in baghdad during the war. we are often first. but i think that the key is to be, if you are accurate in your reporting then they are -- fair will follow. we tried to do the news, get into the air as fast as we can. although we would like to rather be fair than first. we're doing pretty well. >> on accuracy is there a difference between bill o'reilly being accurate work shown -- >> bill and shawn have opinions. my opinion of something may not be accurate based on facts. it is my opinion. whereas the hard news show really has two half facts. there is an opinion segment where journalists, we do not mix journalists and spinners. you know. some shows do that. they take five novak and tucker carlson and put them against you guys that say they had lunch with martians. there is no journalistic standard for spinners. there is a journalistic standard for journalists. you either put spinners on the panel or journalists on the panel. if you do it the other way the journalists will always lose. because they simply cannot say they had lunch with martians. >> back to the statement about cnn international being can't request the best way to get information around the world is to be bbc. if you want it day in and day out you cannot find a whole lot good about america. they do not have an obligation to do that but they do have an obligation, al jazeera doesn't, bbc doesn't end cnn international is less offensive but they do not do it much either. and i think that it is critically important. >> where can fox news be seen around the world? >> we are in about 40 countries. we are coming down off satellite sky in asia and london. we are distributed in a lot of countries. a lot of germany, italy, japan. we do not have broad distribution in those areas. and we have not, it is very hard in those markets because you have to translate into the languages and so on it's very expensive. so we are creating fox news channel. anyone that wants to can see it. but you know people talk about should we learn english? will that is a big debate in the country it's not so big elsewhere. by 2050. so guess what? we need to start cleaning. >> you translate what you doing to spanish. >> we need to look both for this country and elsewhere. but certainly, spanish is becoming more and more predominant in some areas. >> philosophically would you believe this country will to help the spanish understanding the language. you can -- >> you can argue americans out of respect, you know i think kids learn spanish is terrific. i think it is great. i think learning any language is terrific and being able to speak anywhere in the world. but we don't put the same emphasis sometimes on english in this country as we do in other languages. thus the problem. i've no problem as long as you do equal. i just insist that america get a fair shot also. >> in a recent new yorker piece really never worked in news. i wondered -- >> coming from an old consultant that is -- >> is the first time he did news? >> well, it depends on what you mean by news. i have my own company, two television stations. how to put news together, anchors, i trained going anchors over the year i worked with reporters i worked in politics. i used as a report is our primary interest in the stakes, pictures and attacks. as well as give them one of those they will chase the story. i've tried the people here enough to follow this. but look for the real depth in the story. >> do it again. >> if you give a journalist a picture, you have got a guaranteed story. it is what i call the orchestra pit. two guys on stage one guy stepped up and says i have a solution. the other bedrooms up and says -- who do you think will be on the front page of the paper? this is just the way it is. you give them a picture, they will chase it. you give them a mistake, generally they will chase it. if you attack somebody they will take it. they do everything i said today and they will view that as an attack. but there will not characterize that. if you know what the news is looking for, then you can teach journalists how to do substance on. and the reason is very simple. mr. very fine journalists. click done an excellent job. they come in every day trying to be fair. it is that simple. >> if you may not want to do this but if somebody called you and you are in the consulting business and said what should cbs do now that dan rather is leaving? what would you say? >> i am one of these guys who i have kidded about the network news a lot. because it makes them crazy. >> but i don't necessarily think it's over. the media has a tendency to love extremes. they pretend to hate extremes. but they love them. so if anyone cannot say this over tomorrow night! at 7 o'clock. that is not over. we don't know that. i think brian williams will do a lot better than they give them credit for. he is a very smart guy. off the air he is quite charming. if you get any of that on the air he will do fine. he may have done wrong show role-plays or runtime. maybe even the wrong meeting. brian is a capable anchor for broadcast news.and a smart guy. i think brian may do just fine. he has tom brokaw's audience. several million people will watch this every night. if they produce the broadcast brian will be fine. he is what everybody, every parent wishes their daughter would marry. what a great looking guy! he has a lot of nice shirts, articulate, sincere, what is not to like about brian? john roberts, similar! i know john. -- i don't know, i know that tim because you know tim he is great you know. whether he wants to do that or just go to the ballgame i never quite sure. tim is a terrific talent. i don't know that he has ever, he is a great interviewer. i don't know about reading proper and all of that stuff. i cannot imagine matt lauer not wanting to get up in the hour at that morning would want to give up what is a pretty lucrative gig. so who knows. but roberts is fine. williams is fine. they're not finished tomorrow night despite his statements about the shows being dinosaurs. they are dinosaurs!>> what would you do that with you will run in one of those shows to make a difference? >> you have to start with your on-air talent. the truth is people to deceive dan rather.they tune in to see you know sometimes they're waiting for a train wreck but it doesn't matter what they are watching it for. there watching because dan is one of the great street reporters of all time! he was you know he put dan in the field of the story when there are things happening and he will report it and do it straight. he will do it fine. i'm not as fond of him as an anchor. i think he got into not liking certain people and doing things but i think that he is a great great journalist. tom i know and you know, they know what they are doing. people watch them. now with a transfer that to somebody else? i think so! the public understands reality. they know. okay, time for them to retire. let's take a look at the new guy. the new guy is good, let's go with him. it's okay. you know i am not so much, i think the whole idea of the network spending $200 million for and a half hour is starting to get old. and that the economics of the business might change. but you start with a person and they develop a great show and tried to do with the cable channels have not done all day. >> how long are you going to do this? >> as long as i'm having fun! people always estimate about you. along is he going to keep doing this? and i say he has the best job in town! just talked to him ask questions, go home, no pressure, it's great! you know, as long as i am having fun. as long as i think i'm making a contribution to journalism. which i do believe fox news makes a tremendous contribution. we see it and how they tried to copy and how they try to attack. you know if we were not making any impact they would not want this. >> had a plan to hire any of your people? sure!>> what you think it is about you know some of the thunder, bill o'reilly or any of the others. what is it about them that has drawn the night audiences? and that is not a large number but it is the largest number that has ever come to cable. >> and it is growing. the truth is it is growing. we are pulling people from broadcast. we are despite the advertising we are beating them every day. in the audience coming more for broadcast.each person is an individual. each one is different. people forget that bill o'reilly is a street reporter for 23 years. and has been all over the world and the country. he knows how a story goes together. and so, he has strong opinions about these things now. and wanted a form to express them. he did not take away his 20 years of experience on the road. you know each of these people bring something new but they all have a sense of - presentation. they can get through the screen.they have a style. that the audience likes. >> how do you find out when the audience likes them or not? >> i was asked because we just beat all four of our competitors last quarter. we beat them by 20 percent. so i was asked to bring up my research on quantitative and qualitative research and how we got there. and i was forced to go to the board room and explain that we have no research. i have never done a focus group on any of that. i've never done it on any of the shows. i've never done quantitative research. i do not believe focus groups, you go get 12 people and -- it strikes me as pathetic. >> how did you decide in the first place that these people were going to make it here? >> i sat down one day decided what to look for? and i came up with a list of 27 things. you know do they know how to tell a story? will i enjoy having dinner with them? do they know how to form an argument? to have their agent? there are 27 things that make it work for me. >> do hate their agent? >> yes i hate their agent! i have more trouble negotiating. because the agent is an idiot, it will be a problem. >> is there such a thing in this business? >> what? >> an agent that is an idiot? >> yes! there are some exceptions. >> how does that part of this business work? >> everyone gets representation. the ages present them. in many cases they do a lot of good work for the client because you see there tape or make them available. and negotiate their deal. you know often they guide talent and help. and other times they just, you want somebody, they have an agent and you end up paying them in the agent makes the commission. it depends. being an agent is a very hard job if you do it really well. >> back to that list of 27. what else? >> i cannot remember all of them. >> were there really 27? >> yes there were exactly 27. i have it in my drawer. after 25 years -- i mean can they speak? did have good articulation skills? can they read teleprompters? are they good interviewer? are they curious? you know, why do i like them? are they flaky? i mean, there are things that you just look for when you talk to people.do they have a sense of humor? one of the things i tried to instill in people at fox news is take the news very seriously! do not take yourself very seriously. because at best, we are not perfect. >> what have you personally done here specifically that you can tell us about? for instance did you come up with the phrase -- ny? place it has been out there 50 years but no other news corporation decided to pick it up and deal with it. it struck me as odd. >> how did you decide that? >> because i looked at other people's poles. national polls. most of the people thought the news was either biased or boring or both. and they generally thought it was biased in one direction but what my view was, if the american people believe this then it is very important for us to be fair and try not to be boring. and that is the premise of fox news. >> a couple months ago the national academy of television arts and sciences, fox and no one nominated and there was no one in the room that i know of. why? >> i resigned from the national academy of television arts and sciences. just because after five years he never even got a nomination. but the public does not know about these emmy awards you get to vote for yourself. and you can pack the panels to vote. which i did not realize. but if you have more employees like cnn has four times more employees, therefore they have four times more people that can vote for themselves. and i think it is wrong to book yourself. i think it is okay if you are a presidential candidate. and you have 120 million people voting. that is okay. i don't think it's okay to vote for yourself for an award. my show is the best what a nutty idea! so these guys are all walking around and i'm thinking that's not good! also, they want to ignore fox news and we had find journalists here are doing fine work. but because we were the new kids on the block, they decided to block us. so i said we do not need to play. in fact i said we will probably get fired. it means you're doing it politically correct. i can name a special and win an award. no one will ever have to see it. >> is there any way you would go back into that? it doesn't matter to me but - >> look, i don't think so. because i think the internal processes how to clean up. there has to be a real blue ribbon panel. not a bunch of interns running around hotels eating the bagels and chasing each other. there has to be serious people watching serious work. not allowing you to vote for yourself, put that into the blue ribbon panel, do it right. when the award legitimately. that is fine. i am not. they did not want us to play. so we decided we won't play! we will just get the audience, they were that we went every day - you know they can say all they want but at fox news we don't tell the american people to watch. they make that decision. if the american people voted on these awards, what you see in the ballroom would be totally different. we would have 100 percent of the awards. >> okay, we report you decide? >> actually a friend of mine but essentially was mine. i wanted to make it clear that the audience gets to make up its mind. our job is to give them enough facts so that they feel they can do that. and i'm a marketing fellow.i mean i didn't win an award once. i do not know how they voted. i did not vote for myself i guess it was okay. but i got a marketing award. never taken marketing course. i don't know why but i understand marketing because i have acted as a consultant at corporations on marketing. i understand, i think i am a student of audiences. i understand the american people, i understand the audience. i've been out there for a lot of years working television stations, radio stations. watching the american people. the american people are very smart. they may not have all of the information that they need. but they are not stupid! they get it. to underestimate them is a mistake. >> what else did you invent their? >> basically the day i got here we had no newsgathering capability other than the local stations that were basically doing local news and we had no facility. no studios, no personnel, no executives. we had no reporters, no stars, no marketing. i had six months to launch it. >> and 96. >> 96. but when i left 82 people resigned and came to this network. and many of them, a few of them are vice presidents. finance, media relations, a lot of the people who worked with me at the nbc decided to gamble their career and see if we can build a network. because that unit of five percent or 10 percent of my staff was in place, i then spent six months working on firing all of the talent, creating programming, setting the lineup and doing the programming. so - people say what is your greatest contribution to fox news? >> it is simple i hire great people. >> so who did you hire that we now know as a success? >> i do not remember the exact sequence.i guess neil may be. i'll business news anchor was the top anchor at cnbc.his contract was up. he had a hole in the contract. and i remember the final phone call. he said well, i like you but you do not have a network! and i said details. we will build a network, don't worry about it. and he gambled and came with us. lauren green, one of the women on the morning show. i think it was the first, she was the first reporter because i remember her doing run-throughs for us. videos course demo were trying to figure out how to make the graphics work with a reporter on the screen. so some of these folks came in quite early and gambled big. >> did you think bill o'reilly would be the success that he is? >> he felt for the first year and 1/2. he came to me after about a year or year and have consented don't understand. i believe the show should work, i believe i'm doing the right thing. and i had some recommendations for him and so on. i said look bill, the primary problem here is my mistake.i put you in the wrong time period. i had him at six, it was too early. i said i'm going to give you the primary audience spot. and he said, you are the first guy i have worked with that if i was failing gave me a better timeframe. i said that was my mistake. now if you fail then it will be your mistake. a very competitive guy and he took off very well after. >> what did you think of the way that the press, the media covered his recent problem with the lawsuit? >> some responsibly and some irresponsibly. msnbc tried to make a game out of it. >> what about "the new york times"? >> they were pretty rough i think. >> would you consider responsible? >> facts. they did not have a lot of facts. >> was there every time you thought that your star could go down? >> i'm not going to talk too much about that since it all came out that there were no wrongdoing and that is the way i will leave it. i believe in innocent until proven guilty. i believe people have the right to defend themselves. i believe that i am not always a guy that -- i have to have facts. >> did fox news and paying for this situation?>> no. quest so you are comfortable with how this came out? >> no, fox news paid nothing. >> you got in the business of news in the 70s. -- >> you are there too. >> no, i was in the government them. >> i remember meeting you in that office one day. quest television news -- go back to that, what was it? >> i was brought in as a consultant actually. i guess the first company started the network and they wanted to get into the satellite news business. as i recall. these were the very early days of settlement. swanson is now at cbs, in fact that he was young got a new what he was doing. so i argued and kept him. and shirley gibson was there at the time. and i was identifying some people but i was brought in as a consultant to make it work but the truth was that at the time i guess the primary factor, i don't remember details but they went public and had to get the news business. it was one of my consulting facts. >> did they want charlie gibson fired because -- >> i don't remember that he was a good reporter. from the very early days of my life in the 60s and you know, i have been fired a couple of times. i don't care. i mean one of the advantages of digging ditches when you start is you have no real fear of what can happen to you. it doesn't get any worse than that, it wasn't bad! it was okay. it wasn't great but it wasn't bad. i never did anything you know i just i thought someone was good or the idea was good i would buy for them.and charlie was there. >> said he wouldn't fire somebody if you found that they are a liberal? >> i'm sure a lot of them are. i don't have any idea about most of them. i cannot, most of the people who work here came from other networks and journalism. you name it conservative journalism school or conservative network that they could have come from? >> we don't care about that. holy care is present the news. because more than one side -- everything there's something else that you don't agree with, make sure it's in the story. i don't care how people vote. it's not my business! nobody in all of my years of being in the business of ever asked my opinion on an issue. people might be surprised about me. you have made assumptions about me but no, i do not ask anybody and i don't particularly care about how they vote. >> what did you do for richard nixon? >> i worked for three months. i guess i came in about march of that year. no, no! 68 i came in as an observer with bill safire and some others i guess -- i remember having dinner in new hampshire. but i did not actually, i came aboard in about june or july of that year. because somebody offered me a chance to produce television for the presidential election. it had very little to do with politics. i did not know nixon.the interesting media challenge was everybody said this guy can't get elected because of television. i thought i knew television pretty well. i was 28 years old. i said nobody's ever going to get elected again without it. and you know i happened to run into nixon because he was on the mike douglas show. he happened to be on the same day that little egypt was on. she was a belly dancer and had a boa constrictor. one of the guys came in and said we have former vice president nixon coming in a belly dancer with a boa constrictor so what you want to do? i said i do not want to scare him and i don't want to scare the snakes or put them in different rooms.so they put nixon in my office. i was 28 years old. i came back one day, up for rehearsal he says i need a gimmick to get elected. and i said if you think that television is a gimmick then you will lose. and later len was a friend of mine, a lawyer from washington. i worked for him he called and asked me what i be interested in producing some television? and i thought that's interesting.i'm a 28-year-old former ditch digger from ohio and they are asking me to produce television for a presidential campaign. so i did. >> so three months. three or four months. >> yes. i worked for him for three or four months. >> what did you do? >> first time i was part of the team i did work on his media side. i think the second time i coached him particularly for the first debate. they brought in for the second debate because i was known as a debate coach. by the way, had they put little egypt in my office that day, entirely different career! [laughter] you know, my entire career is based on -- and saying well, this is the hand i am dealt. how do i play? is absolutely the way i got into it. >> how long did you work for ronald reagan? >> i never worked for the government. i worked in campaigns. i had a consulting company that primary corporate consulting. i was known for political consulting because that got more press. of course, you know tim and brian and -- these guys all worked in politics. i worked for reagan during the campaigns i guess for a few months. helping him with the debates. >> what did you do for bush? >> i was senior advisor. ? -- there were about six or seven of us. >> what is more fun or more interesting, more - >> keep in mind that is 50 years ago almost. >> what is more fun or interesting. this job now or politics? >> this job! i quit politics because i hated it. >> what did you hate about it? >> i got up one day and hated it! i thought the candidates were - i was beginning to know more about the issues than they did. i hated to travel. i hated the, i thought it was getting mean-spirited. my friend bob squier who was top liberal consultant in the country, he and i were close personal friends. i wrote the eulogy for "time magazine" when he died because his family asked me to. we use a debate in the off-season and go out and do corporate things. and so you know i did mostly corporate work. occasionally i did political work. it was not the largest part of my business ever. television and corporate. but i got well-known and then educated. the whole media piece of the business and did not want to do it. i gave up probably 40 percent of the business overnight. >> people our age know the name mike douglas. is he still alive? >> he called me about, is to be a production assistant for mike douglas. i started his production assistant and then became his producer. i moved through and was a director and so on.call me nine months ago is that i'm going to get an honorary degree at a college. he said not at a speech for me for acceptance. because he still -- i'm just kidding but he called me so would you knock out a little speech for me? it reminded me of the old days when i was 22 or 23 and he would say, hey, kid, let that cue card. -- so ice to write them. and he said not got a little speech. so i wrote a seven minute speech for him. i talked to him on the phone. >> how old is he? >> i don't really know. probably 80, i don't know. >> how long was he on television? >> 72 he maybe i don't know how old. >> he was on every day. the highest rated show in the history of daytime television. he actually, we had more viewers for the mike douglas show in the 60s at its peak within 182 states. we have more viewers than the tonight show with carson. >> and where was it? >> i moved with them is an associate producer and then executive producer. we took it to 182 markets". >> what was special about michael? >> mike douglas had a quality of everyman. he can sit down with sammy davis junior or bob hope or whoever the guest host of the week was. and he really wanted to know about them. because he was like a fan of these people. a good singer himself, a good interviewer. capable you know mc. but he like these people. he loved show business. and he, the audience liked him. he got through that screen. he is what taught me about likability. for television people. you know if the audience really just does not like you - it is tough! look for another career. >> would he make it today? >> he might. he was unique. he was at the time of mike and merv griffin and so on. i - it is tougher today because of the crudeness of the media and so on. i watched over thanksgiving, happens to catch regis has broken the same time and really came in under those guys and learned it. he watched regis and kelly now. they were doing stuff that we were doing on the mike douglas show. they were throwing baseballs, dunking each other in the water. they were doing all of the stuff we did in those days. so the show still works. if you watch fox and friends on this child is very much like america's talking. it is! i decided to preserve a piece of america's talking when i left nbc. >> what was america's talking for those who do not see it? >> it was a cable network nbc originally decided to start. and then when they had a merger it was a much better business play than they thought. they didn't know it was going to be, not do well. so they decided to go to msnbc. but i decided to keep it. and today it is the number one morning show on cable. >> would you take don imus over there? >> prior to the show i spoke to don. i'm a big fan of his. i like him enormously. but it is a different kind of shelf now. i think, don was at his best when he could book anybody. now i think he can basically only have nbc correspondence. occasionally he will have a star on but is very careful now. they have restricted a lot of his bookings. or something has happened. but he himself is still imus. he is unique and a great talent but you know we are beating that show 3 to 1. so i would be really stupid to change it for don imus. we beat him 3 to 1 every day. >> america's talking, when it was happening you had your own show. >> i put myself on the air because i had taught interview technique for years. america's talking was totally unknown and unable to get gas. >> family visit we did you do that show? >> maybe four or five.i would run in, unlike you, i would go in - have somebody read me their bio while it was getting my makeup on and run in and do the interview. and i did mario cuomo, - probably i don't know, there were great interviews. i mean i enjoyed talking to the people. like you, you have a curious mind. that's what drives you and this show. i think i have a curious mind. i really want to hear from these people. so i enjoyed it. but i am not a natural on air performer. i am very good at finding other people to do it. i'm very good at formulated questions that will get good answers. but i did it primarily to help the network. >> do you ever want to do it again? >> no i fired myself. -- was a fan of the show and got pretty good ratings on america's talking. i would not have the time running a network like this but there are few people i would love to interview. you know, i do not know if i want to do it as a regular thing. i think i'm outside of the demographic not. you and i are irrelevant. even though fox news channel is doing extremely well with advertisers. personally outside of that. >> back to what we were talking about in the beginning. i heard you talk about the media establishment. what is it? >> the people that go to the same parties. the people at cbs and "the new york times" refused to cover the oil while fox news was out there digging the story. we were out there putting it up front. we were a team of people, we thought there was a story there. turns out it was the largest financial scandal in history. they see some of the other networks. but if they go every night, they're not going to say do you have a minute? >> clauses in the establishment? >> is usually the east coast and west coast people that frequent the same parties, both the same way, don't like anybody that differs with them. does understand the flyover country in the middle. and they kind of you know hang out at the same restaurants. and go to the same parties. they are all hoping for an invitation. you know, i like tina but - >> would you go? >> i enjoyed to go and make other people crazy. and occasionally we will go. >> how can you tell when you're making somebody crazy in your presence? >> well, the user tried to persuade me that i am either wrong or nice. and certainly, a bad person for not agreeing with them. generally we start a debate in the track to do that, you know you're making them crazy. >> so what is it, that's with the beginning, what is it that it's under the skin about this network? >> look, they suspect me like america. they suspect that we think - >> do they really hate america? >> no, they're disconsolate tell you what is wrong. there's never a good story about this country. you know the american people do not hear that. we don't - you know we do not promote something that isn't true. but we will put it in context. 95 percent of our people are working.that does not say that we do not have an unemployment problem. ohio, michigan and some of those places. it does not mean, you have to cover that. you have to put in context! do you want to live in somalia? is not a good idea? you have to put into context of what we have and that is part of the news. part of the news is all of the facts. we try to do that. it makes us little different. >> how do you feel, the wrath of the establishment? >> what we don't get invitations to some of the parties. we get attacked in the press. david westerman after our slogan. at stanford, they talk to each other about us and it hurts our feelings. i taught a class of the columbia. walk into the international school of columbia and look at the books required reading for the students. 100 percent anti-america. capitalism is no good, 100 percent - >> i went through the books when i went up there recently to do david dinkins class. i do it every year. i went to the post and try to find one that might be balanced on the issue of america or capitalism. i could not find one.>> for you it started in one aisle. >> right. >> what was the environment? >> that was a factory foreman worked all of his life. mom worked as a checkout woman in a market. my grandfather was a school janitor. when i was a team identity where you going? i said what do you mean where am i going? and he said you can't live here. i said what do you mean? and he said you are 18!are you going to join the service or go to college? what are you going to do? i said, i don't know! he said you go to college, make a dollar and i will give you a dollar. if you don't make it all you do not get a dollar. if you want me to put your name at the shop to get you a job then fine i will. no favoritism but i will put your name in. i said well, okay. i get it. you know? you know he was, he was doing the right thing for me. >> so you went to ohio university? >> yes because they said it was a party school and i would not have to study very much. i did play by play sports for the conference and skipped a lot of classes and finally got an f. they say we don't have to keep you next semester so what are you going to do? so i passed and i got my degree and i got out. i got into radio and television. the secret to life is find something left to do and find someone to pay you to do it. and i got lucky. i have studied a lot more since i got out of school and know a lot more than i did then but it was a good experience. my dad did the right thing. a lot of people did not go to school. >> five years from now you are still here.what do you want to accomplish most in those five years? >> we're moving into radio. i think radio will be as good for trend eight as tv. >> what are you doing? >> i think will have an announcement about something coming up down the road. we have several shows in the pipeline. we have the news is probably on breaking news espy will he on 200 or over 200 radio stations right now.from the fox news channel. we find that we are the most demanded brand out there on cable. so i think radio will be huge. i think you'll see some more stuff on the internet site. we do not have the advantage of an aol or msnbc because there with microsoft but we have some ideas of how we can expand in those areas as well. i think that fox news channel has become home base for america. used to come in and go through six or eight channels. now they are not doing that anymore.they tend to come to us and stay there. that is good! they sit through our commercials, they stay with us. they believe they're getting fair and accurate news. and we think will become the best. >> what about the news channel? i mean the business channel? >> i cannot say too much about it. clearly bathtub distribution. clearly cnbc has had a niche for a long time. i know how to do it because i ran cnbc. we turned around during that period of time. i want to i did but good employees did. and we know how to do business. i am of the opinion that business -- if it isn't why do people run for president talk about the economy and jobs and retail sales in all of these things? it is how you present these. there are 32 business shows currently on cable television. top five are at the fox news channel. and -- i don't know what he is doing running for office or something. and then cnbc after that. we think there is a market for business news because we think it is real news. >> why would you do a business channel when cnn fn has been dropped and cnbc's ratings are down? >> they never got distribution. i think cnbc you know they claim they went down when the bubble burst. but you know, a market went out but trying to represent that the ratings went down 80 percent. so i keep thinking you know, when i was there we did not have that problem. we did not have a problem.so i think maybe we can do something. i just believe that it can be, we are all in business to make money. all of these channels eventually have to make money. i believe that if you do business news correctly, you will make money. and they make money but they make most of their is on infomercials. if they did not have infomercials it would be ugly! >> so if you start when would you start? >> as soon as we get distribution. where work out a business plan. we have to look at who will view it where, how many subscribers you need? and you have to have distribution. so all those things are in the works. i can do it in four months if i have to. we have to put those pieces in place first. >> would you start directing? >> no i don't think that is lucrative. >> you're out of time. >> okay. >> thank you roger. >> sunday on q&a, in his book a fine mess, author and journalist tr reid takes a comparative look at tax systems around the world. >> i went to the