Transcripts For CSPAN2 Religious Pluralism In The United States 20220723

Sometimes worked within it. They help us see how the politics of religious pluralism intersects with american empire with global migration and with free market capitalism and how local and state actors shape the meaning of religion in american life. At a time of growing religious diversity and of growing conflict over what it means to assert religious values in the public sphere today. These histories can offer valuable insight into the controversies. Were facing some quick introductions of our panelists and then ill turn it over to them first. Well hear from carly bariant whos phd candidate in the committee on the study of religion at Harvard University where she works on the history of American Religions and politics with a focus on United States empire missionaries and militarism in the pacific. Before graduate school carly lived and worked in the republic of the Marshall Islands, and shes finishing up a dissertation entitled for the good of mankind marshallese missionaries militaries and the making of american empire in the pacific 1857 to 1966 her paper. Today is titled selling religious freedom the us military and bible distribution in the postwar. Hide Pacific Melissa borja is an assistant professor in American Culture and core faculty member in the Asian Pacific islander American Studies Program at the university of michigan. Melissa works on religion migration race, ethnicity and politics in the United States and the pacific world her book follow the new way among Refugee Resettlement policy and hmong religious change is forthcoming from Harvard University, press melissa an active public scholar serving a Senior Advisor to the religion and resettlement project at Princeton University and this lead investigator of the virulent hate project. Which studies auntie asian racism and Asian American activism during the covid19 pandemic. Her paper today is religious body politics religious pluralism and regulation in Healthcare Settings. And finally William Schultz is a historian of American Religion and assistant professor at the university of Chicago Divinity School will works on the intersection of religion politics and capitalism, and its currently finishing up his first book jesus in the rockies how Colorado Springs became the capital of american evangelicalism, which explains how the confluence of evangelical christianity and freemarket capitalism transformed the city of Colorado Springs into an epicenter of american conservatism. His next project is the wages of sin faith fraud and religious freedom in modern america, and hes speaking today out of that project. Its title is schlock ministers and male order mendicants the crusade to regulate religious fundraising and with that turned it over to chrome. Hello everybody. Thank you for being with us this afternoon. I want to thank my aunt arlene for coming and being an audience member and i would love to thank will for organizing this panel and the conference organizers for bringing us together. I also want to thank my fellow panelists for their incisive and insightful scholarship. Its a real joy to be able to share the space with you on this Beautiful Day on this beautiful campus as tisa said i am a doctoral candidate at harvard where i work on the history of religion and us empire in the pacific my current project focuses on the Marshall Islands where i examine how different groups of americans used religion to justify their involvement in the region during the 19th and 20th centuries as well as how religious commitments have grounded marshallese antinuclear antiimperial and climate justice. Movements in the 20th and 21st centuries today i am going to discuss the Marshall Islands as a microclimate of religious freedom and as a microclimate of us empire during World War Two as well as the contemporary implications of us policies regarding religion in the archipelago and scholarly use of metaphors like microclimates. The metaphor of a microclimate comes from Julianne Thomass wonderful contribution to this really excellent volume that was edited by Heather Sharkey and Jeffrey Green and published last year called the changing terrain of religious freedom. In his essay thomas describes microclimates as localized patterns dictated by the specific circumstances of terrain the built environment and ecology. He writes theyre always local and are often artificial, but theyre also fundamentally subject to broader weather patterns and slowly shifting climactic forces. As the work of people like thomas and the other members of this panel demonstrates religion pluralism religious freedom. These are all constructed contingent and contested categories with tangible and embodied social and legal implications. They have been liberatory and they have been tools of empire. So how do different groups of people experience categories or ideals like religious freedom or pluralism . What concrete forms do they take there is a vast body of scholarship on the coconstruction of race and religion on the ways in which religious identity and religious affiliation has been racialized that the local and the National Levels as well as work that explicates the gender and class politics that underpins so many of these histories this scholarship shows us how religious identities that people have claimed or have been assigned have function to include or to exclude to mainstream or to mar. Lies individuals and groups of people throughout us history considering the World War Two era Marshall Islands as a microclimate illustrates some of the contradictions and tensions that appear when american policies and ideals like religious freedom are enacted and reinterpreted by people outside of the United States. It provides a window into how religious freedom does not always translate into or a Company Political freedom. By way of orientation. The Marshall Islands is located about halfway between hawaii and australia its composed of five islands and 29 coral atolls spread across almost a million square miles of ocean. There is a limited amount of land and in most places the land extends only a few feet above sea level. The Marshall Islands is an island ocean nation if you cant see the water from where youre standing you can hear it the waves break endlessly and audibly on the coral reefs that surround the atolls today about 60,000 people live in the Marshall Islands the vast majority by some estimates 97 identify as christian. Since 1857 when two american board missionary families sailed to the Marshall Islands and kaibuki a marshallisiroge or chief invited them to stay and establish a mission station there generations of marshallese. People have grown up practicing christianity. By the outset of the Second World War japanese and american sources independently estimated that at least nine out of every 10 people in the Marshall Islands were protestant. During World War Two the archipelago was strategically significant for both jip japan and the United States since 1919. The Marshall Islands had formed the eastern perimeter of japans pacific empire and it effectively cut in half the United States territory in the pacific separating the United States held philippines from the Hawaiian Islands and north american continent. On february 1st, 1944 the us military invaded quadulent atoll in the Marshall Islands. It was the most concentrated bombardment of the pacific war by the third day more than 8,000 japanese and koreans 350 americans and 200 marshallese. People were dead and american soldier reported that the entire island looked as if it had picked up been picked up 20,000 feet and dropped. The beaches and the coral reefs were pockmarked by american bombs and littered with burned and twisted metal debris one marshallese man recalled that there were so many dead people on such a small island that they had to walk on the these to get from one place to another during the bombardment marshallese families sought refuge and pillboxes and in holes that they dug in the sand and as wave after wave of American Marines reached the shore one. Elderly marshallese woman hit and she held tight to her bible. She remained hidden as the marines combed the islands hunting for japanese soldiers for wounded and dead americans and for the surviving marshallese and habitants when the woman finally emerged from amid the smoldering remains of her island. She held out her bible to the americans and she told them this is our book. We christians from boston. An American Protestant chaplain who went ashore shortly after described finding a bloodstained hymnal it had been printed by the american board in 1837 1937. Hoping to identify its owner. He showed the book to some of the surviving marshallese people on the island one man reached out and the chaplain reported lovingly traced the crudely scrawled name on the cover. With his finger sadly the man said the hymnals owner died during the battle. American chaplains marines and journalists shared these stories and stories like these with the American Public in private and public letters and news updates some were published in the missionary herald others in secular outlets like lifetime and the saturday evening post together. They illustrated how central religion was in a place like the Marshall Islands as admiral chester nimitz who was in charge of the allied land air see and see forces in the pacific during World War Two and coordinated the invasion of the Marshall Islands wrote by taking the Marshall Islands. We are liberating a people who will once again be able to practice the christian virtues brought to them by american missionaries when fdr declared that everyone should have freedom of worship in his january 1941 state of the Union Address shortly. This was what he meant. On kwajalein members of the Marshallese Community shared the Japanese Armed forces had tried to stamp out christianity during the war. They told marshallese people that jesus was dead and they ordered that all bibles and hymn books be burned. They threatened to shoot anybody caught with either. The chaplain told american readers of the missionary herald were his letter was published that the marshallese man who owned hymnal had been shot because he would not give it up. When a Us Naval Commission surveyed the marshallese people and asked them what they wanted first and most repeatedly they got the reply send back the missionaries. Us military officials observed that religion played an important part in the life of the islanders and they sought to create policies to support them under the auspices of religious freedom the military however was wary of bringing back American Protestant missionaries the majority of whom were single middleaged or elderly white women to the war zone in lieu of missionaries, the military directed their chaplains to perform religious services for the people. Including marriage ceremonies and funerals the military reported that they provided meeting places and Held Services for all sex. But shintoism given the demographic makeup of the islands what this initially looked like on the grounds was support solely for christianity. The military also distributed and in some cases sold hundreds of bibles and hymnals to the marshallese people. The military hoped that by selling bibles they could teach the marshallese people to be good christians and good capitalists. Some of the officials cautioned that unless people paid for the bibles. They might become reliant on the United States for charity a microcosm of a larger debate that was unfolding about how to occupy the martial islands and transform kwadulin into a military base without turning the marshallese people into wards of the american state. After each battle like the one on kwajalein the us military held a flagraising ceremony to mark the end of the fighting and the beginning of the Us Occupation as one us official explained these rituals were performed to communicate to the marshallese people that they were now under American Protection in may 1944 Time Magazine published a report about one of the ceremonies near a a fawning review of going my way. Be that starred bing crosby as a crooning Catholic Priest who sweeps in to save a new york city parish and a long profile on us general omar bradley the short report communicated a lot. This is what the article said. The marine platoon presented arms the bugler played to the colors as the us flag flooded up the staff. From under the rustling coconut palms asylum group of natives watched the formal institution of us military rule. This was the first segment of the japanese empire to be captured by the us one of the outer atolls of the Marshall Islands lanky native wise lieutenant galen sturgeon read a proclamation establishing military government in joining the natives to help the United States and interpreter shouted his echo. The natives and brilliant ragabag costumes listened their long brown fascias expressionless then an old chief asked may we pray now Said Lieutenant sturgeon the United States guarantees freedom of worship the marshall islanders who are pious christians dominant variety boston congregationalists broke into cheers and struck up a christian hymn in the soft flowing native dialect. Here on the periphery of the japanese empire in the middle of the vast Pacific Ocean was a community of pious christians and not only were the people pious christians, but they were boston congregationalists through these characterizations of the people pious protestant and american affiliated american readers learn that the people in the Marshall Islands had a preexisting relationship with the United States like the letter from the chaplain about the bloody hymnal with the imprint of the american board the time article suggested that the americans had saved the marshallese people twice by evangelizing in the 19th century and by defeating the japanese. Military in the 20th century without explicitly stating it the article also drew a sharp contrast between the Us Occupation of the Marshall Islands and the Japanese Occupation. Although religious freedom had been established by the japanese in 1919 via the International League of mandate league of nations mandate framework that governed the first decades of the Japanese Occupation the time article asserted that this iteration the us militarys way of freeing religion was distinct and as a result the article suggested the marshallese welcomed the American Occupation they cheered it. During World War Two the simultaneous imposition of religious freedom and military occupation and the way these policies and programs were communicated to marshallese and to americans illuminate how policies and histories interpretations and agendas around religion are simultaneously local and transnational personal and political complicated and often contradictory what the policies looked like depended and shifted. Depending on who was implementing them. In this microclimate with christianity is the cultural context the ideas of religious freedom and pluralism and what many christians believed at heralded. That is the potential introduction of nonprotestant religions into the region was a nathma to the american board missionaries who are clamoring to return it was an athma to many of the protestant chaplain stationed in the Marshall Islands, and it was an asthma to many of the marshallese people. They wanted religious freedom in so far as it produced continuity so long as they were able to continue their religious practices from before the war. They did not want our seas as they referred to roman catholics or fundamentalists on their islands. They also did not want the us military to tell them what religious freedom should look like on their islands the United States seeming support for christianity distributing bibles Holding Christian services telling the people they could pray again. They seem to signify that religious freedom was limited to christianity. When the us military attempted attempted to implement policies that marshallese people or american missionary saw as restricting christianity. They sought to circumvent them one place where the us military attempted to draw a boundary and keep religion out was in the Public School system this policy upset plenty of marshallese people including dwight heine who was in charge of the Public Schools. According to heine marshallese parents wanted their children to learn about the bible in school, but when he asked for time to teach the bible during school, he was told by us officials that it would not be allowed because it was against the law in the us so hiney added in a period for teaching Marshall Lees language because he knew that teachers would have to teach the bible at that time because the only book they have in the marshallese language. I share these stories to give you a sense of just how complicated the terrain in the Marshall Islands was how the overlapping microclimates of religious freedom and empire created entirely new ecosystems and realities the legacies of the us military occupation in the Marshall Islands and subsequent Us Administration of the Marshall Islands are many the impact of nuclear testing, which i did not discuss today is a core part of this legacy a second related consequence is the political status of many marshallese people in the United States since 1986 when Congress Approved the compact of free association, the Marshall Islands has been a freely associated state. That is its an independent country with a somewhat unique treaty relationship with United States that gives United States exclusive military rights to marshall. Lees islands waters and airspace together with palau in the federated states of micronesia the freely associated states represent an area larger than the continental United States. The Marshall Islands is home to a Us Military Base and it is an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile test site the compact which is currently being renegotiated also enables marshallese people to travel to the United States where they may work go to school and reside indefinitely. Ill be it with no path to us citizenship save for those who are born here who or who have served the us military. According to Congress Official political status of the tens of thousands of marchleys people who live in places like, evanston, illinois and Springdale Arkansas is nonimmigrants without visas. They are resident noncitizens today a challenge facing these communities within the United States is not necessarily a religious one but a political one now, there are limits to using Climate Change using climate as a metaphor for religious freedom as thomas points out religious freedom is fully and for pogenic whereas climate has both natural and artificial aspects focusing on these more intimate spaces and interactions can also make it easier to miss the forest for the trees, but the metaphor of a microclimate is helpful for thinking about another complicated and for progenic Climate Change challenge facing the marshallese people today Climate Change looking ahead. I have to wonder how this newest challenge will impact the marshallese in the United States and in the ocean nation, that is the Marshall Islands. Thank you. Good afternoon. Thank you everybody for joining us for this conversation today. In the past year and a half the National Debate about religious exemptions for covid19 vaccine mandates. Has sparked lively conversation about religious freedom and religious pluralism in the specific realm of healthcare. These are political issues debated at the highest levels of our government often in abstract terms like freedom and liberty. Yet these are not abstract issues. These political issues take form and the personal dramas of everyday life at the local and hyper local level in the complex interactions between patients and Healthcare Providers in hospitals all across america. So when talking about the politics of religious pluralism, we tend to emphasize what politicians and preachers and regular people believe or profess, but just as important is what people do when they put ideals of freedom pluralism. Care into practice at the center of my talk today are a few very basic questions. Politics of religious pluralism played out in the specific context of healthcare more specifically how have americans accommodated religious difference in Healthcare Settings . As a historian of immigration and religion. Im particularly interested in understanding how institutions and individuals in healthcare have adapted to an increasingly religiously diverse population. To explore these questions today. Im going to focus on the experiences among americans in the 1980s and 1990s when there were some very highly public conflicts related to hmong americans and western medicine, especially in relation to the problem of sudden unexplained nocturnal death syndrome or sons. Drawing on archival sources legal and government documents as well as news media. I show how the suns crisis which mystified doctors and patients alike resulted in autopsies a procedure to which mong americans objected on religious grounds. Drew on the First Amendment and the category of religion to take to push back against these autopsies and to ensure that Healthcare Providers take their beliefs and practices seriously. The debates over hmong objections to autopsies made clear that there were significant differences between how hmong americans and nonmong Healthcare Providers understood Health Sickness and healing these differences and the Media Coverage about them set up a collision of culture narrative a polarization narrative if you will that continues to be very powerful to this day. But this class narrative which emphasizes conflict and incompatibility obscure something that its just as important that hmong americans and that their nonmong Healthcare Providers often found creative ways to work things out to compromise adapt individual actions and institutional policies and put ideas of pluralism into practice often behind the scenes. My paper is divided into two parts first. Ill begin talking about the conflicts around hmong americans in healthcare, especially those related to autopsies and the suns crisis then ill shift to some of the compromises that hmong and nonmong people found in trying to find a way forward. So first, let me give you a little bit of background about hmong people. The hmong are an ethnic group native to southeast asia. Most among americans trace their origins to laos where they allied with the United States in the war against communism during the secret war of the 1960s and 70s after laos fell to the communist in 1975 hmong refugees were part of the wave of a million Southeast Asian refugees who came to the United States between 1975 and 2000. Historically hmong people have adhered to a set of beliefs and practices that they call the traditional way. It combines animism ancestral worship and shamanism. Now by the 1970s and 1980s hmong american men had endured many traumatic painful episodes war forced migration resettlement, but one of the things they feared most was dying in their sleep. During the 1970s and 1980s sudden unexplained nocturnal death syndrome claimed the lies of at least 117 young among american refugee men who were otherwise healthy by 1984 the suns death rate among laotian american men aged, 25 to 44 was huge. Equal to the four leading causes of death in all american men of that age group. The way these men died was mysterious and terrifying. They would be sleeping peacefully until suddenly they would be gasping for air legs kicking violently only to die within minutes. One among women witnessed her husband died this way next to her in bed. She woke up and heard him moaning and gasping and he was dead that fast her doctor said among american men afraid of dying their sleep set their alarms to ring every 30 minutes through the night to ensure that they would stay alive. And sometimes hmong men were too afraid to sleep at all. Young and healthy man named moth howe told a reporter in 1983 that the fear and sleeplessness made life as miserable as and perhaps worse than he said his life during the war. He said i worry and i cannot make my body to sleep. Stay awake. He usually woke up in a sweat after only a few hours of sleep and fear and extreme sleep deprivation was destroying his life. These sons fatalities captured the attention of among americans Public Health officials and medical researchers who offered a wide array of explanations for sons genetic heart disorders Chemical Warfare vitamin deficiencies. Nobody knew why they were dying and it was in this context that doctors conducted autopsies on hmong people who had died of sons. However, among americans objected to these autopsies, which they viewed as spiritually harmful and dangerous and they used religion to make their case that doing them families consent was unjust. The sons crisis gave rise to a Landmark Legal battle yang v sterner in which hmong american successfully used the First Amendment to claim religion and protect themselves for medical procedures that they considered to be a violation of their deeply held religious beliefs and very spiritually harmful. At the center of yangvis turner was a 23 year old rhode island hmong man named nanyang when night 1987 he was sleeping when he suffered a seizure that caused him to lose consciousness. He was rushed by ambulance to Rhode Island Hospital where he passed away three days later on december 24th. The hospital staff unable to explain why nanyang had died contacted the office of the state medical examiner. And on december 25th without informing her securing permission. Of the yang family dr. Williams sterner the chief medical examiner conducted an autopsy on nanyangs body. He later argued that he had encountered several unexplained deaths in rhode island among the Southeast Asian population and believed that an autopsy was necessary to determine if quote an infectious agent capable of spreading an epidemic within the state unquote had been the cause of nanyangs death. You then yang and iku yang and then yangs parents were horrified to learn of the autopsy and argued that the states autopsy statutes violate their First Amendment right to exercise their religion freely. According to this Court Documents the yang family adhere to the religious beliefs of the monks one of which prohibits any mutilization mutilation of the body including autopsies or the removal of organs during an autopsy. Such an autopsy disrupted the spirits journey after death causing consequences. The yang family believed would have consequences not only felt by nanyang but the rest of the family as the yang family explained to the court the spirit of nang their son would not be free. Therefore. His spirit will come back and take another person in his family. In the end the court ruled that dr. Sterner had violated the yang familys religious beliefs as protected by the First Amendment and according to the decision. There was no compelling state interest in performing autopsies to overcome the yangs religious beliefs. For over the judge decided that it was reasonable to believe. When a medical examiner receives the body of a person who might be hmong, he should realize that an autopsy would violate the religious beliefs of the descendants next of kin. The court later through the decision upon considering the outcome of Employment Division be smith, which was decided a few months later. Nonetheless the idea that hmong believes about spirits were valid religious beliefs was never questioned and were broadly the case was a highly visible example of conflict that revealed the religious spiritual and cultural differences between hmong americans and their nonmong nonmong doctors as well as the willingness among americans to use the legal system to assert that their monk traditions amount to a religion that merited First Amendment protection. The suns crisis and unwanted autopsy that the center of yangvis turner were clear instances of conflict over unwanted medical procedures the basis of religion. But its also important to point out how the suns crisis created new circumstances for compromise and serious engagement with hmong spiritual beliefs about health and healing in contrast to the physicians who thought that sons was due to Infectious Disease or heart condition some scientists and proposals just anthropologists and physicians insisted that understanding the suns crisis required analysis. Not only a bodily health, but also spiritual wellbeing they argued that monk spiritual beliefs along with the experiences of extreme stress and Culture Shock produced by its resettlement may have links to sons and produced a type of sleep paralysis that the researcher Shelley Adler described as nocturnal pressing spirit attacks. Neil holton a physician researcher in saint paul minnesota recalled everyone was fascinated by this phenomenon and wondered if their own field of expertise at something to contribute like any good mystery. He said lots of people were trying to figure it out from many directions and this included religion. For one long researchers researchers such as bruce leotoo responded to the suns crisis by urging american researchers and physicians to understand how hmong people interpreted sons. He was among american man who chose sons at the topic of his doctorate thesis in Public Health graduate school, and he wondered if hmong traditional beliefs about illness and death were contributing factors to sudden death. He looked at 45 cases by 1982 which was an extremely high rate in a population of only 110,000 among men in the United States at the time and he concluded that one triggering factor was stress to certain individuals caused by inability to continue traditional religious practices in western countries, or other religious difficulties or stress caused by other reasons such as the inability to find traditional healing practices or the difficult in adapting to a new lifestyle which can cause a variety of health problems, including eventual sudden nocturnal death. Nonmonth researchers and physicians followed suit and also began to investigate monk spiritual lease in combination with the stresses of resettlement and religious people. Some wondered if hmong traditional beliefs about illness and death caused sons while others suspected Culture Shock and change of beliefs being at fault. Reflecting this alternative framework physician researchers at saint Paul Ramsey Medical Center sought to collect data not only about victims physical and Mental Health but also their spiritual and religious beliefs the twin cities sons planning product for example was a coordinated effort by Public Health officials and members of the monk Refugee Community to improve understanding one of its central questions was does anxiety from cultural uprooting and change and beliefs play a role in these deaths. Its case questionnaire, which you can see here revealed how physician researchers and Health Officials were engaging in among spiritual beliefs under religious and social life. The questionnaire asked did the subject go to church. What kind did the subject believe what he heard in church. Did he retain ancestor worship . What were views about it . At the same time that mong americans and their allies were seeking more culturally informed approaches to sons. There were also pushing for accommodations for traditional among healing practices. Individual Healthcare Providers sometimes made special effort to support the ritual practices among people for example, one woman in saint paul believed that one of her 12 spirits had been lost when she had received treatment at saint Paul Ramsey Medical Centers psychiatric clinic neil holden the same position who had been researching sons actually cleared out the clinic to allow a shaman to conduct a ritual to retrieve the lost spirit. Healthcare institutions have also found a way to accommodate and support hmong practitioners of shamanism. So were seeing actions on at the level of the individual but also the institution but 1989 University Hospital in saint paul was allowing shamans to burn incense and conduct rituals in hospital rooms saint pauls Children Hospital ran among Awareness Program and my 2009 mercy Medical Center in merced, california even created the First Program in the nation to offer formal licenses among shamans who were approved by the hospital to conduct a nine traditional healing rituals. The story i lay out for you today matters for reasons that reach beyond specific issues facing hmong americans in the 80s and 90s. First it reminds us that the issue of religious freedom and held should not be limited to contemporary issues facing white christians, especially evangelical christians, even though those topics tend to take up a lot of our attention. Conflict centered on religious objections to medical procedures are not new not uncommon and they dont only involve christians. They involve a diverse range of religious groups, too. But if we talk about conflict we should also talk about compromise highly visible legal disputes obscure a very basic point that hospitals can be a site of a lot of underappreciated accommodation and negotiation and private efforts to work out solutions are important to consider as we think about seemingly intractable problems about religious pluralism and religious freedom. When we talk about religion and healthcare people often emphasize conflict and polarization and they tend to think about religion as an enemy and irrational reason why people might refuse an autopsy or a lifesaving vaccine or surgery. But we must remember that for most people religion is a means of care just like medicine is supposed to be a means of care. And because both health care and religion are supposed to be focused on helping people solve their problems neither benefits from creating conflict. For these reasons it behooves off the scholars to look past the polarizing clash of culture headlines and instead Pay Attention to the multiple ways. People practice religious pluralism in real life and find Creative Solutions on the ground. Thank you. All right. Thank you all for being here. Thanks to the panel to tisa for commenting. It is such a pleasure to be able to listen to such fascinating work in the field and i hope i can add the conversation with my paper here which comes from my second project. Which deals with religion and financial . Fraud and how financial fraud has been a realm in which the meaning of both religious freedom and religion itself has been made and remade so the project starts with a very simple question when you give money to a religion, what do you expect to get in return happiness . Inner. Peace more money exchanges of this sort are essential to modern religion, especially in the United States as the historian Lawrence Moore noted several decades ago American Religion has long been a commodity to be bought and sold in the marketplace of culture. Mingling of religion and commerce has never sat well with Many Americans it troubles the imagined distinction between the sacred and the profane. Journalists politicians and religious leaders have all condemned and sometimes initiated legal action against religious movements that they saw as two crudely transactional as movements. Which promised too specific reward for donations now nonchristian religions have borne the brunt of this criticism in the United States Christian Churches have a wellestablished tradition of relying on voluntary contributions. Theyre pleased for money are culturally sanctioned not so for nonchristian traditions. Their promises of health and wealth in exchange for money are seen not simply as part of the religious landscape. But as an attempt to fleece the gullible. Numerous scholars of religion including our commentator tisa wenger have explored the ways in which american religious freedom has been shaped by protestant influenced notions of what True Religion looks like. Id like to add to this scholarship by emphasizing the importance of Financial Exchanges in this story separating true and false good and bad religion often involves passing judgment on the exchange of money between religious donors and recipients. Now here, im going to discuss one important example of this phenomenon the mighty i am movement largely forgotten today at its peak the mighty i am was one of the largest of the alternative religious movements which flourished in the United States in the decades between the world wars . Critics of the movement emphasized what they saw as its overly transactional nature which they believed made it not a religion but a scam the mighty i am was created by guy and edna ballard a married couple with a deep interest in the occult guy ballard in addition to being an occult. Enthusiast was also a gold prospector and it was on a prospecting trip to california in 1930 that he underwent a spiritual transformation. He claimed that while prospecting on californias mount shasta. He met a mysterious figure who identified himself as saintgermain this figure took ballard on a voyage through time and space. Ballard recounted these fantastic travels in his 1934 book unveiled mysteries, which became the foundational text of the mighty i am now the cosmology of im was less a creed than a kaleidoscope of recurring themes words like Energy Harmony and love if the movement had a central principle. It was the one expressed in the first chapter of unveiled mysteries what you think and feel you bring into four. There was no limit to what human beings could achieve once they grasp this great law of Magnetic Attraction. Now its worth noting that this idea did not originate with the ballads variations on the great law of Magnetic Attraction had long been a staple of what the historian sydney alstrom termed harmonial religion. America added was a sense of drama and showmanship. Starting in 1934. They tore the country giving lectures and churches country clubs opera houses masonic temples any venue, that would have them and these mass meetings define their movement. The journalists described one such event quote at the back of the stage is a Great American flag and on each side of the platform are large portraits of saintgermain and jesus with bright flood lights beating down on them. Guy and edna ballard appeared on stage dressed entirely white guy sporting a jeweled American Flag lapel pin they then led the crowd in chanting. I am affirmations demanding health and wealth for themselves and annihilation for their enemies. Now, its hard to judge the size and the composition of the movement thousands of people attended the meetings, but no doubt many came as much out of curiosity or a desire for entertainment as a devotion to the cause observers did note that the audience is skewed white female and older and many also appeared middle class westbrook peggler a columnist who attended several rallies noted that ballards followers are obviously not poor. As the im Movement Crew larger late in the 1930s. Its critics grew louder pegler in particular heaped scoring on them. It seems impossible. He wrote that in all history. The human race has produced any more humiliating rebuke to its claims of reason than the mighty i am. These critics focused on what they perceived as the transactional and commercial nature of the mighty. I am journalists who attended the rallies made sure to highlight the plentiful merchandise sold there rings pins paintings even victrola records. Guy ballard died unexpectedly december 1939 and his death plunged the movement into a crisis. After guy and ednas son donald became embroiled in an acrimonious divorce suit. A subsequent investigations revealed that donald had received thousands of dollars from his parents which critics cited is evidence that the ballards were using love gifts from followers to enrich themselves. Then came a heavier blow. In july 1940 a grand jury indicted edna and Donald Ballard and a number of other im leaders on 18 counts of male fraud the charges boiled down to a single claim. I am was not a religion but a scam central to this claim was the exchange of money that had taken place between the ballards and their followers the indictment explained every element of the i am theology in terms of how it enabled the ballards to scam people for instance their belief in an impending apocalypse was explained as a way to convince followers to withdraw their money from the bank and give it to the ballads. The trial started in december 1940 witnesses for the government returned again and again to the issue of money many testified to the movements wealth one claiming that the ballards took in quote well over a thousand dollars a day the government overall depicted the ballads as motivated not by belief, but by a hunger for profit the trial then turned on an implicit question did the ballards deliver on their promises . The government attorneys argued that those who joined iam got nothing in return for their money. One witness for instance charged that i am had failed to heal her kidney and bladder trouble despite the money that she had given them. The defense responded with testimonials from satisfied. I am devotees one man enthused that since joining the movement quote. I am a better man physically mentally and spiritually he had gotten they said a good bargain. The jury acquitted three defendants and deadlocked on the remaining six. A retrial held in 194142 ended with convictions for edna and Donald Ballard in their case eventually wound its way to the United States supreme court, which in may 1944 upheld the fraud conviction in a complex ruling. Five justices upheld the conviction but suggested the ballards could appeal on different grounds. Writing for the majority William O Douglas also asserted that the ballards should not be judged on the truth or falsity of their religious beliefs heresy trials are foreign to our constitution hero. Standing alone was Robert Jackson whose descent declared that the initial indictment violated the First Amendment. His opinion contained a telling claim if the members of the sect get comfort provided by the celestial guidance of their saintgermain however, doubtful it seems to me jackson wrote. It is hard to say that they do not get what they pay for. She understood that the court was being asked to pass judgment on the nature of the mighty. I ams financial practices. The conviction was ultimately thrown out not on religious freedom grounds, but because the federal government had excluded women from the juries which convicted the ballads. The victory was a hollow one, though. Fraud orders which hindered their use of the male the lengthy trial and guy ballards death. All contributed to ims slow and steady decline although there are still elements still temples of the i am remaining today. Now this case of the mighty i am is not just a colorful sideshow though it certainly colorful in its own way it reveals how fears of fraud especially financial fraud jostle against the broad if often vague protections afforded religion by the First Amendment. The resultant clashes have yielded a patchwork system of religious regulation . Covered less by clear principles than by ad hoc decisions a series of carly put it quoting golden thomas microclimates of religious freedom. Broadly the history of the mighty i am suggests an important truth about American Religion. Financial practices are religious practices. Giving money can have just as much significance as saying a prayer or burning incense. But the addition of a financial element often attracts the unwelcome attention of outsiders. And it invites government officials to sit in judgment on whether these kind of exchanges are legitimate. On whether there is a Fair Exchange going on between donor and recipient. So the political history of religious freedom and religious pluralism, which were discussing here requires attention to these kind of Financial Exchanges. Its in these areas that the meaning of religious freedom and religious pluralism has often been hammered out. Thank you, and im really looking forward to the conversation. Thank you to all three of you. It was really fun to read. Through your papers in advance and then to hear them again, and i had written up comments and now i have all this additional Chicken Scratch on my notes. So hopefully i can be coherent and i want to be pretty brief in response to allow time for any questions that our audience might have and also for conversation among the panel so currently asks, what does religious freedom look like in imperial spaces and her paper shows how religious freedom served as a part of the propaganda of us military and imperial expansion in the Second World War and and it wont be a eyes to carly to hear that i hear i hear a lot of echoes in this story from my own work on us imperial conquest in the philippines in 1898 when similarly, you know us kind of came in as a military conquering force claiming to free the philippines from the tyranny of spain which had write a supposedly not allowed religious freedom in the same way that the us claimed in the Marshall Islands that japan had inhibited religious freedom and i think theres a bigger story there right a bigger story about us empire and the narratives of bringing freedom and bringing sometimes religious freedom in particular to places where us military and imperial interests dictate a military presence anyway, so carly writes about the history of us empire and religious freedom in the Marshall Islands as an example of the localized patterns of religious freedom, and im willing glad you ended with the microclimates of religious freedom because thats kind of a theme running through my comments. I too love that concept by from julian thomas. But um carly points out that climate is not only a metaphor for how religious freedom plays out a local level, but that the very material changes in climate that are disproportionately affecting the Marshall Islands also have an impact on the politics of religious and religious pluralism. You know bringing. Refugees climate refugees right around the world including marshallese to the United States to some of their dislocations are a result of Climate Change. And this is an essential point and i think its an important question for all of us to think about as we think about the kind of call this bigger theme of the politics of religious freedom of pluralism, and how climate caused migrations and dislocations. Will also transform an are already transforming the politics of religious pluralism and religious freedom around the world. Um and yet, you know as we think about Climate Change, i also intended to even though you said the metaphors in perfect. Im tempted to extend it even further because local microclimates right are shaped by local terrain and local circumstances. But theyre also shaped by global Climate Change. Yeah and in the same way, how do global geopolitics and globally dominant models of religious freedom as outlined by International Bodies like the United Nations and big powers like the United States also shape the microclimates of religious freedom. You know within the us in the Marshall Islands around the world. I mean, i think i love the concept of microclimates of religious freedom. And i think its absolutely degenerative. Right but i think we run the risk of moving too far in a kind of local history kind of way and forgetting the big power plays that also shape those microclimates. So thats my extension of the metaphor. Melissa points us to another microclimate of religious freedom with the story of hmong immigrants stricken by sudden. Its unexplained nocturnal death in the 1980s and 1990s who objected to the autopsies that doctors performed in an effort to understand the causes of this syndrome right here. We have a microclimate formed by the confluence of a Health Crisis affecting a specific immigrant Community Among refugee experience and spiritual traditions american medical practices and the defense possibilities by here. I mean the the way that Hmong Community them among people themselves defended themselves against autopsy against this pressure this these this medical practice. All of these are factors. Are kind of part of a specific microclimate at play here . So american religious freedom law opens up this possibility of hmong people. Defending themselves in religious freedom terms and i know melissa thinks about that point a lot in her larger work so melissa, you draw an intriguing parallel between this story and the contemporary controversies over religious exemptions in the covid19 vaccine to the vaccines and remind us you remind us that many communities object to medical procedures for reasons that they name as religious. And that a scholars we shouldnt forget that these tensions are not specific to conservative christians today. Um, but they cut across many different kinds of communities and you note that solutions to such conflicts are often worked out at the local level in hospitals and local Community Organizations as it seems, you know was ultimately done in the case of Monk Community leaders working with doctors hospitals and healthcare organizations. Maybe more effectively than in the courts or when they are framed as high profile culture wars. Hmm, so this account leads me with some final questions about the politics of religious pluralism on the ground the high value assigned to religion and to religious freedom in the United States creates a climate that encourages people both hmong refugees in the 1980s and conservative christians today to frame their concerns about autopsies or about vaccines in the language of religious freedom. In both cases these arguments gain some traction right for the hmong. It seemed like this. This was a useful defense both sort of politically and in the courts. But i wonder if the macropolitics of religious freedom in the context of todays culture wars actually solidifies an intensifies intensifies concerns about vaccines that you know. Variable sources of these concerns right in different communities, but it kind of solidifies and defines them as religious objections because of the availability and the utility of the religious Freedom Defense and so gets in the way of the locally grounded solutions that you are suggesting i think today it because of maybe the the way that religious freedom is so politically polarized. Its getting in the way in a way that it didnt in the case that youre talking about. And so, you know does the availability of religious freedom as a rally in christ . Sometimes create more problems than it solves. Um finally will schultz examines the fraught history of the iam movement and the allegations of fraud and legal rulings that contributed to its gradual disillusion here. We see another microclimate of religious freedom one that was shaped by the physical and spiritual hungers of the depression era by the fears of authoritarianism and its fraudulent propaganda tactics that were on the rise in the 1930s by the growing debates over the contours of religious freedom that were more and more entering the courts in this period by the taken for granted privileges that dominant forms of christianity enjoyed and still enjoys. Under us law making the the public and the courts far more likely to be suspicious and critical of movements. Like i am so narrating this case will suggest that at least in the United States religious freedom is inseparable from financial practices when i read that i kind of like hmm had a little bit of a i dont know and you get skeptical response. But im intrigued by the claim right and of course, i would agree that capitalism and Financial Markets are ever present in american life, but i still wonder how widely this intersection holds true and i keep changing my mind as i think about it, right . I mean you make them more specific claim and in conclusion that especially for alternative religious movements right like new and alternative religious movements fears of fraud, especially financial fraud have jostled against the protections of florida to religion by the First Amendment, but i think this is particularly true, of course as you said in the case of alternative religious movements precisely because theyre forced to struggle for recognition. Its legitimate religions in the first place. So i wonder instead of showing that religious freedom always intersects with financial practices doesnt this case show above . How the law has so often worked to police what counts as legitimate religion and that kind of this these fears of financial fraud which of course have been. Levied against many new religious movements not just i am which of i think is part of your point, but, you know particularly in a society that with all of its pluralism again with all the pride that americans take in religious freedom is still very much dominated by christian norms, and then i thought as you were just talking now, you know, i wonder how we square this with the major religious freedom stories today, which are mostly about the rights claimed by the majority right by by a kind of christian majority that believes itself to be besieged by the secular state and you know. I narrating my own thought process you like those dont have anything to do with financial controversy. Oh, but wait. Yes, they do because in i mean in but in a very different way, right and im thinking of cases like hobby lobby where it has to do with whether Christian Churches or the case of hobby lobby a corporation that identifies itself as christian is obligated to pay for contraceptive coverage for employees when they object to the you know abortion or the contraception that might be that there would be there for covered. So thats a different kind of financial issue right and i think back over the course of religious freedom in us history and there are a lot of cases where controversies have to do with property law, right and who owns so theres another kind of financial story there. So, i guess i want to ask you whether you how you would weave all of this together and whether theres a kind of i mean you were framing the intersection between religious freedom and finance simple like prime or exclusively in this paper in relation to fears of fraud. I think there there are much there. There are other ways in which intersects with. You know histories of corporation the histories of finance the histories of property that maybe even strengthen your case about the intersection of finance and religious freedom, but not that i expect you to do this in the next five minutes, but i love to think think with you about narrating that bigger. Set of intersections and im curious to think whether youre here whether youre already thinking that way. All right, im gonna stop that was longer than i expected to talk and let you guys. Take a few minutes to respond and then well take any we have a fairly small audience, but well take any questions that or comments that we might have from the audience and please remember to speak directly into the mic. And if you all do have any questions because of the td audience, please go to the mic and speak from the mic. Thank you. You dont do that. Yeah. All right, and any questions from the audience the panelists would like to hear from you. Thanks for a great panel a great set of papers is by really fascinating. My name is lloyd meyer. Im a professor at university of notre dame. So i had so two. I dont think quite related questions, but ill ask each quickly. One is several presentation has touched on the fact that the religious practices or beliefs that run into conflict are the ones that are out the mainstream that are not generally product, you know, traditional protestant beliefs of practices, which the relevant officials or whoevers in control the doctors in the case of autopsy the medical examiners, whoever share and so they seem to be receive less protection. As a result at least in the historical studies that the jordan involved in i be curious to know especially the martial island case. What surprised me there was the fact that the military was actually in 1940s objecting to religious instruction in the school even assuming that i dont remember my case before yeah. Yeah, so it was objective religious structure of the school even though just in protestant faith which the military seem to be otherwise supportive of and again with line up with presumably the solve the military leadership and why you know that the fact they objected supplies, and i wonder if there was more behind that. So i was i was one question. The other question which is really for all the panelists is in another panel. Someone said suggested that rights are for losers. And and one of it is anyways is actually it was touched on by the moderator is the fact that you know when you and actually theres some behind the scenes accommodate from Justice Scalia on his lines that when Employment Division versus smith was decided and it was said well the freshman doesnt protect religious practices from generally applicable laws neutral general applicable laws. Just Justice Scalia. Ive heard ive heard him directly has been quoted saying well, you know at that point, you know, hes over assumed that the religious practices and beliefs of the majority Christian Faith what definitely any protection right because it was sort of in the water and and itll be protected and really the generally applicable neutral laws would be you know, they would burden to extended but anything really minority religious practices it was he was that blatant but that was so, you know picking that you know, thats his thinking about how the consequences of the decision would play out. But now of course we see as was mentioned religious Rights Groups really working to defend religious freedom for the majority faith often interesting enough by defending religious practices and beliefs of minority faith or to establish precedence that can be used by the majority faith. So id be interested in the panelists, you know, having you know sort of advancing the current time saying whether what were seeing is that supporters of even the largest faith bodies whether its catholic or privacy evangelical or whatever get not just being defensive in the sense of some sort of political strategy, but really being defensive really concern that whether its today or next year or 10 years from now. Their rights arguably eroded and thats why theyre trying to establish the favorable president s now to protect religious freedom and wisely at least the smarter groups are using the religious practices of minority fates as the the vehicles were doing. So because those are more sympathetic than bringing cases involving and of course willing to defend the Business Practices of minority face as well as their own because they go view their position as a minority one eventually so it went on for a bit, but hopefully thank you some father for discussion. Heres auntie. Yeah a wonderful set of questions and i think you know that i was there for their rights or for losers common, which i think is amusing in a lot of ways but is you know, its interesting to note first how there are many groups who are not very marginalized communities. Who are nonetheless especially the past couple decades very happy to invoke this kind of language of rights, even if they dont see themselves as losers. They recognize its potency and they recognize that the place where these issues are going to be hammered out is in the courtroom and that so they have to tailor their language to win over not voters not lawmakers, but judges and in terms of groups more mainstream groups recognizing the potential of working with these more marginalized communities to establish favorable precedence. You actually do see that you start to see elements of that in the mighty i am case. After the ballards are put on trial. Christian century a magazine which embodies the kind of protestant establishment of its era editorializes several times in their favor and says that these trials the trials of the ballards are a threat to all religious communities. This starts to get at what tsa mentioned about weaving together the broader story and it wonderful comments by the way, and ill im sure well get around to addressing some of them in the conversation. Here. There is this idea of the internal workings of a religious institution should be inviable. It should not be the role of the government to pry open the black box of religious fundraising and think about what is going on in these exchanges. Thats what the Christian Century says. And a couple decades later when the the hare krishnas are imperiled their lawsuits against them when there are lawsuits against the Unification Church of Sun Myung Moon when there are lawsuits against the Worldwide Church of god, which is protestant but a far more apocalyptic and extreme brand of protestantism. There are lots of more quote unquote mainstream religions who rally to their side who filed briefs on their behalf who work with them because they see it as a way of defending this inviability of religious institutions. So one of the longer threads here is the Unusual Alliances produced. Where these questions of both religious freedom and Financial Transactions are concerned. So thats just my starting answer. But again, thats a really really thoughtprovoking point. Thank you for your wonderful set of questions to echo will just really quickly on that second question. It makes me think again of our prevailing metaphor of the microclimate and just how quickly things shift. Im thinking back five or ten years ago when rifraz were all the rage, right and that was kind of like the trend and the conversation around religious freedom and how different groups deployed that and then when you think back to the historical origin of religious freedom restoration actress, you see right how it goes from being used by like a Minority Group to being used by mainstream groups and then how the implications of that . Well they kind of bring in a lot more people right and it becomes a larger political controversy and then it becomes no longer quite as tenable to use them. So we move on to Something Else on your question about the Marshall Islands. I think its really fascinating because this case in the Marshall Islands speaks to a really particular moment in time and to a number of debates that were playing out at that time. So one of them was you know about whether christianity or secularism was the appropriate foundation for democracy and a lot of people might say that thats two sides of the same coin and in the Marshall Islands you see this real tension because there are people who say well were not sure yet how independent were going to let the marshallese people become we dont know to what ends were going to be educating people and we dont know what role christianity should play and theres also just you know a number of logistical hurdles in governing a country. Thats spread out across 750,000 square miles while youre fighting a war and so i think that what you see in that situation is marshallese people whose territory it is, right . They have this insight or knowledge and so theyre able to exert this authority and so you have the us military saying one thing and you know, people are cheering and theyre also doing what they want to and you know, the military didnt really have anybody who could speak marshallese at that point so they werent sure what going on in the schools. So its kind of like the missionaries and the marshallese people working together to implement their own agenda at the local level apart from what was going on kind of at the atmospheric level right at the larger the larger level. So i will pause there because im sure other people have things to say, but its a wonderful question because it really does speak to that particular moment, and it could have gone in a lot of different directions. To pick up on this theme of Unusual Alliances. I think you can say this in so many different areas of american politics Unusual Alliances. I think religion is a particularly rich space to think about changing configurations of political alliances. I think youre exactly right that religious Freedom Arguments have been used for different purposes and maybe there is there are moments when say white evangelical christians could find common cause with muslims in their Community Around shared concerns related to religious freedom. I just want to point out those some of the very obvious examples we can point to in recent memory and in the past longer history of how a lot of these same communities. I really quite hostile to the mere presence of these communities very very aggressively trying to keep them out of the country. And so yes, maybe an abstract there is Unusual Alliance work going on, but i think its useful to really focus on whats happening in the real world in real communities and pointing to the fact that it is often religious groups that are objecting to the presence of muslim refugees in the United States. Its also religious groups that are making a strong case for the admission of muslim refugees in the United States you see them on both sides, but i think that reallife examples of what people do. In real communities matters a lot human thinking about this issue. Yes, i cant resist but comment on this as well, and i think what melissa just said is essential that you know there that that we can never say religion writ large is on any side of anything right . Because that i think to assume that which too often gets assumed in the kind of Public Discourse is to only reinscribe and worsen the problem. Right . And its also inaccurate because there is no one religious view on anything and you know, yes. Some christian groups have for principled reasons for strategic reasons supported religious freedom cases from coming from you know that affect Minority Groups at other times and other christian groups have actively tried to exclude and Minority Groups and have absolutely not supported the religious freedom claims of Minority Groups. I also wanted to comment on the school question to just kind of like ill add to what the what carly said and you know, i think. To add a you said it was a particular cultural moment. And i think thats absolutely right and to add another dimension to the cultural moment as you narrated. It would be the way that in the United States the idea that religious instructions should be kept out of the Public Schools was the product of a very long and what fought battle you know series of wars, you know called series of culture wars through the 19th and early 20th century that by the 1940s had come to this particular point where the schools were to be a place for civic instruction and that you know to that that to bring religious instruction into the schools was too politically polarizing and i think that you know Us Government officials were like that was the kind of settlement that had become mostly accepted in the United States at the mid20th century moment right that then was kind of being exported to a very different context in microclimate in the Marshall Islands. I and i would add that only that like i mentioned my work on the philippines earlier in 1898 in you know, so four decades earlier in the philippines. The story actually looked quite different and the us. You know military governors that were managing schools in the field of i mean they were working closely with missionaries. There was christian instruction that they brought in and that yeah that they thought was entirely consistent with their of like bringing. Religious freedom to the philippines. So it was a different moment. And let me just add to that right its one thing to say. Theres a rule against teaching about religion or teaching religion in schools. And its a completely different thing to not teach religion in schools right or to you know, extricate all sorts of different types of values from educational environments and these are debates right that were seeing today and in different forms play out. Its i would i would yeah say tisa. This is exactly right the United States and the Marshall Islands had very distinct histories. And so when you see those converge in this period in time, it produces something quite unique and different right and in the marsh islands it proceeded along a very different trajectory than it has in the United States in terms of the role that religion plays in society and the way that religious freedom is interpreted and enacted in the Marshall Islands today. There any other questions from the audience . Well, i think then i want to ask you all to either respond a greater length to my questions or to pose questions to each other we have about five more minutes. Well, i can make just a Quick Response to some of the really thoughtprovoking points keys that you brought up in your comment about so fears of financial fraud as policing the boundary between mainstream and marginal religions. And i think thats one of the key things. I do want to get across in my my project here the way that some practices are identified as fraudulent. Is a form of policing the boundaries of what True Religion is versus. Phony religion scam religion genuine versus spurious kind of religion and of course, its worth noting that that kind of division often carries racial. Overtones and sometimes far more than overtones. It is often minority communities. Lets say father divines. Peace mission or the movement led by the africanamerican minister sweet daddy grace, which are targeted by both. Muckraking journalists and politicians and regulators though that does not always hold true again. The mighty i am is a predominantly white movement. And so there is as you said a place where attention to the broader climate of the era becomes important the fears of i am are related to these fears of totalitarianism. Lots of people talk about how ballard is becoming a peewee hitler or mystical mussolini or something along those lines. And the last thing i would say is this which relates in part to what professor mayor brought up in your question the idea that in some ways its often. The marginalized communities its usually the marginalized communities would compare the brought to this regulation, but there are also times where coming further into the mainstream. Highlights practices which would otherwise have gone unnoticed because the community was more marginalized and you see this in certain say televangelists circles communities and practices which would have flown under the radar before are now subject to greater scrutiny because evangelicalism is less marginalized over the second half of the 20th century. But anyway, ill just stop there and you know, thanks again for the comments. Well, this is so fascinating. I have a couple of questions based on on your comments and it can help i cant help but reflect on the ways in which like real scholars of religion kind of debate amongst themselves about whether and how you might define religion and also kind of how this extends into fraud and how if we cant come up with like a definition for religion or fraud. Are we seeding that space to you know, Like Congress right or to judges and then the ways of course in which are scholarship as people like Julianne Thomas own ray can have these longterm unintended consequences when we do weigh in on these debates. And so im just curious if you have any comments on like the unintended consequences of this controversy the mighty i am controversy and the ways in which it seems like youre almost pointing or do you see yourself as in conversation with people like kevin cruz and Bethany Morton and the way in which you know decisions around religion and taxexempt status like so the bob jones case, for example led to the rise and the creation of the christian right in the United States later on. Yeah, thats a really good question and as often the case with good questions, i dont have a good answer but i do think its worth, you know at this. Im at the point in the project where i have less arguments than stories just like a story which goes to that point. You brought up the bob jones case and what the relationship between religion and financial practices shows what that history shows. Is that the tensions between the Internal Revenue service and religion especially conservative religion did not begin with the Segregation Academy issues in the 1970s the television not televisionist, but the kind of crusading anticommunist evangelist Billy James Hargis is struggling with the Internal Revenue service all throughout the 1950s over the tax exempt status of his christian crusade ministry because the irs says no youre not a religious movement. Youre a political. Movement, and so theres another kind there. Its less a question of fraud because there are no one saying that hes stealing money, but theres a question of misrepresentation. And so theres that question of how do you draw the boundary between the religious and the political . Melissa you want to have the final word . Id like to respond to your very provocative question tisa about the availability of religious freedom as an argument. Im gonna be sitting with that a lot and i really like the question that you framed. It. Does the availability of religious freedom as a rallying cry create more problems than it solves in the current moment. Im a historian so i dont study the current moment that much but i i am curious to know. How religion focused vaccine discussions are playing out if thats at all effective when were looking at the hyperlocal level of conversations between neighbors families Healthcare Providers patients and so on but also related to other issues religion focused discussions on contraception and abortion can be much more complex than we give it credit for. You know in the earlier panel about polarization to spend a lot of time talking about the consequences of our the structure of our democracy. In our Political Parties here, id like us to to think about how this panel reminds us of the consequences are of our countries investment in the category of religion. So we dont have many things and any identities discussed in the constitution, but we do have religion and what are the consequences of that and i would say that in american political context religion is a means of securing resources resources of rights respect recognition. And so i think if worth imagining american political life today, and were talking about religion, we cant just focus on beliefs. We cant just focus on practices. We need to think about how it is a tool that people use to do various things. Which some may consider good or bad. But as a tool that people use to dance what they see is in their best interest. We are out of time. So please join me in thanking the panelists. Friends, it is such a pleasure to introduce a panel of three of americas most distinguished historians of the Early Supreme Court to teach us about significant justices that we may not have learned about before. Gerard mallioka is the Samuel R Rosen professor of law at the