It cant come from the press person. Usually when you say that, by the way, half of all requests go away because theyre not quite willing to ratchet it up that high. So i always insist that they ratchet it up that high, offer very, very specific proof. And i would say still most of the time we go with the story. But if somebody offers are there stories we have held over the years, stories that met that standard . Yes. A brief portion from tonights look at the relationship between the press and the government. See that starting at 8 p. M. Eastern on our companion network, c san. Cspan. Now, more from the series of author interviews that make up cspans latest book, sundays at eight. This is a conversation with historian and author David Mccullough from our q a program. This is just under two hours. Cspan David Mccullough, where did you get the title for your new book, the greater journey . It happened on november 15th, as a matter of fact. I somehow or another know exactly when i suddenly thought thats the title, the greater journey, because i was trying to think what is this book about . Its about a journey, but a different kind of journey or a mission or an adventure or an odyssey. And i kept working with these words, the word journey kept coming back. And then i was thinking about their, the voyage of these americans who ventured off to france at a time when they were all only able to go across the north atlantic by sailing ship, and it was rough, and it was anything but traveling on a cruise liner. And what a journey that was. And then they got to, they landed at le havre, almost all of them, and they then went by land to paris which was a twoday trip by huge, cumbersome, stagecoach affair. And they would stop at rouen, halfway. And they would see for the first time a european masterpiece, and it was the rouen cathedral. And many of them wrote at length and very much from the heart about the impact of this one building, this one experience. And that they knew that something greater had begun,ing with in the old world. The old world to them was the new world. And i thought, thats it, the greater journey. They know then that they are on a greater journey which will be their experience, their spiritual, mental, professional journey in thety of paris in the city of paris where theyre trying to rise to to the occasi, to excel in a particular field whether it was writing or music or painting or sculpture or medicine, because many of them in that day went to, as medical students, went to paris because paris was the medical capital of the world. So theyre ambitious to excel, and they are going against the trend because to go off to europe then was not fashionable yet, and it wasnt part of ones broadening education yet. Many of them had no money, many of them had no friends in europe, knew no one in paris and spoke not a word of the language. And yet they were brave enough to go. To embark on the greater journey. Cspan this renoir painting, you know, when i first saw it, this had to cost them a lot of money to put it on there, but i assume is it out of copyright, or do you own the painting . [laughter] guest no, no, that belongs to the museum. Pont neuf, the new bridge. Still there, looks just exactly like that. You can walk out to that very spot by the bridge, and except for the wagons and horses on the bridge in the painting, would be automobiles and buses now. And for many people that bridge, particularly in that day before the eiffel tower had been built, say, that bridge was the essence of paris. And it still is. Its one of the host magnificent most magnificent spots anywhere in the world because you really feel youre there. When youre out on the bridge, youre looking up or down the river, you see note redame notre dame, you see the louvre, you see the National Institute on the other side of the pont neuf, the next bridge up the river. And one fellow, John Sanderson from philadelphia, said i began to breathe when i got out on that bridge. I began to breathe the sort of free air of paris. Cspan a person by the name of william b. Mccullough took this picture. Guest yes, sir. Cspan what is where is it and what year was it taken . Guest this was taken last year, last fall, last october. William b. Is my second son. He is a former camera match in Television Cameraman in television and now has his own business as a builder in new england, and hes a wonderful photographer. Hes a wonderful fellow to travel with. And the picture was taken just outside the sarbonnes on the left bank which is where many of these Young Americans went to study. They could go for free. They could go to the school of medicine in paris for free. The french government had a policy that all foreign students could attend their universities for nothing. They had to pay for their room and board, but once they got there, there was no charge for attending the university. It was the greatest university in the world. Imagine a country doing that. And that sarbonnes, the experience would change several lives dramatically. And consequently, changed our story, our history. Thats what interests me particularly, what did they bring home . What did they bring back . How were we affected . How did our outlook, our culture, our politics, our country change as a consequence of the american of the paris experience of these americans . Cspan how many times have you been to arrest . Guest well, rosalie and i first went in 1961. I was then part of the Kennedy Administration and very young, and we were on our way to the near east. I was doing a magazine about the arab world for the u. S. Information agency. And our first time there were no jets as yet, so we flew over on a prop plane, took forever. We landed at night. It was february, it was cold and rainy, and it didnt matter in the slightest to us. We were in paris, and we walked for hours that night just so thrilled to be there. And weve been going back fairly off ever since. I would ive never counted up the times that weve been to paris, probably 20 times, maybe more. But ive also done research there before because part of the john adams book took place in paris, as you know, and the Jefferson Adams franklin time in paris, a very important part of the american story. But i also was there to do work on my book about the panama canal because so much of that Research Material on the french attempt to build the canal is there. And then i went back to france to follow Harry Trumans experiences in the army in world war i. Most of my visits have been because of my work, although we have had a few times when we went strictly for pleasure. Always with pleasure. Cspan up here on our scream is the gal screen is the gallery of the louvre which you write a lot about in the book. What is it . Guest thats a painting by samuel f. B. Morse, the same man amazingly the same man who invented the telegraph, one of the most important inventions of the 19th century. And morse felt to felt to bligeed to bring european culture back to america. Hed gone to paris because, as he said, i need paris for my from negatives, my painting. Negatives, my painting. They all felt that, those that went, and hundreds went. But he was one of the first. And he decided that he was going to do a painting that would show americans what the inside of a great art museum looked like and what great masterpieces looked like. Keep in mind, there were no museums of art in the United States. This was 1832 when it was painted. No museums of art. You couldnt go to a museum and look at paintings anywhere in the United States. And very few paintings of any kind unless theyd been copied for private ownership were of the great masters. Now, most of these are renaissance paintings, italian paintings, some of which were already part of the louver. The louvre. You see the ho that lisa right there mona least lisa right there. The partition hangs over the door up on the righthand side right at the corner. Cspan how big is this painting . Guest the painting is six feet by nine feet, its huge. And it, it was much bigger than anything of the kind ever attempted by an american. No american had ever attempted to paint anything like this until then. He did an earlier painting, a famous painting which is at the corcoran here in washington of the congress in session which had never been done before. He was always trying to break new ground. But the 30some paintings in this picture, he they are not how they were actually hung in the louvre. He went through the entire collection, over a thousand masterpieces, picking out those paintings that he thought americans should know about or that he thought these are the paintings that i truly love, that i care about. And these are, to me, the treasures of the world, and i want to share them with my negative countrymen. My fellow countrymen. So he arranged them, as it were, in his mind. But he went and copied each of these paintings as they hung in the gallery at the time. And many of them were hung very high up, just as they are here. So he had to build his open special scaffolding his own special scaffolding to move from spot to spot to get up there to paint them. Now, a lot he himself gave a key to this painting when it came back so that if you went to see it on exhibit, you could see which pent paintings were which, which was the rem perhaps, so forth. But what he didnt give was a key to the people in the painting. And there is, in effect be, a code to this painting done by the man who virtually at this same time invented the morse cold because his code, because he got the idea for the morse code, for the telegraph and the code while he was in paris, while he was in france. But the code, every painting is a collection of choices by the author, by the painter. And its not just whats in the painting. Nothing gets in a painting by accident. Always there because somebodys thought about it. But theyre also thinking about whats not in the painting, what im leaving out. Just as when ones writing a book or composing a symphony, youre leaving a lot out. You have to. So in peopling this picture, which hes done because he wants to give scale to the room and to the painting, the haven the main room, the grand gallery which is at the center of the painting is, was the largest room in the world. So thats the vista in the painting. And this is the [speaking french] which is a smaller room. All exactly the same today, by way. The paintings arent there that way. But hes showing you the expanse of this space, the scale of this public cultural treasure open to the public. But hes not showing you the public that really would have been there. There are no french aristocrats in the painting, there are no priests in the painting, there are no soldiers in the painting, all of whom would have been there. Every time the public was present. And this would have been huge crowds always. This amazed americans, not just how many paintings there were, but how many people came, and all kinds of people. Now, he does have a woman from britain who stands at the door to the left, her back to you and her child. And thats probably to show that people, people of all walks of life and from and who dont the live in paris are welcome here and come here. You can tell who she is by that peak of her hat, her cap, that white cap is sort of signature of people coming from britain. He himself stands down stage from center. Hes the man bending over, the pretty young student whos working, making a copy of the [inaudible] which is over on the left of the marriage of canaa. And he is showing himself not just as a painter, but as a teacher. And hes very proud of that, samuel morse was. Over in the lefthand corner is his best friend in paris, the Great American author james pennimore cooper with his wife and daughter who is also an art student. Coming through the door is a sculptor named reno, also a friend, an american, and theres another friend of his, harbach, who is over on the left whos an american artist in paris. Now, what this painting also doesnt show is the tranquility of the setting, the warmth of the red walls, the warmth of the glow in the grand gallery conveys a sense that all is right with the world. Outside those very walls is one of the most horrific, deadly scourges ever to hit paris, the great cholera epidemic of 1832. People were literally dying in the streets. Dropping dead. 18,000 people died in less than six months just in the city of paris. Both of these men were terrified that they were going to contract the disease and die too. And everybody who could get out of paris was leaving. But cooper, who was very wealthy because his books, last of the no here cans and others were so successful, could have left. But he had his family with him, and his wife was very ill and couldnt be moved. Cspan how old was he . Guest he was in his 40s, they both were in their 40s. Morse, who had no money and was living very modestly, was staying because he was determined to finish that painting before his money ran out and he had to leave. Cooper, out of friendship to morse and to see him through this ordeal, came to the louver every afternoon to be with his pal, to sit with him, talk with him while he worked. It is a, it is an amazing story of friendship, of a friend in need. And both of these men were similar in some ways. They each had a distinguished father, they each went to yale university, yale college as it was then, they were each talented, they each lived in new york, but they were vastly different in more ways, in more important ways. And yet this bond of friendship was like very little ive ever written about or known about. Its a terrific story. And i felt that not only is it an immensely important painting and interesting painting to say the least, but its an amazing story. I could are written a whole book i could have written a whole book just on this one painting. Cspan how long did it take him . Guest he worked on it just about a year. Started this the fall of 18 be 1, and 1831. Cspan i read its coming to washington this summer. Guest its coming to the National Gallery. Its just been to yale which was a thrill for everybody there because both morse and cooper went to yale. And the cooper and the morse papers are at yale. But the fact that its coming to the National Gallery is thrilling. It deserves much more attention than its getting. For a long time, its been in storage for years. Cspan who owns it . Guest the Tara Foundation in chicago. Cspan used to have a museum. Guest yes, thats right. When he finished, he thought maybe he could get enough money to more than compensate him for all his work, thought he might get somewhere 3, 4,000 for it which was considerable amount of money then. He couldnt sell it. Finally, somebody from up in cooperstown, coopers hometown, bought it for 2,000. In the 980s 1980s it sold for over 2 million which was the greatest amount of money ever paid for a painting by an american at that point. No longer that way. But its a very important painting. Cspan in your book, you have acknowledgments, including a man named mike hill. And the interesting thing i read was that he unlocked the magic of the ely Hugh Washburn diary. Will you tell us who he was and where was it found . Guest yes. Well, first of all, mike hill has worked with me for 25 years now as a research assistant. He lives here outside of washington, and hes within easy access to not just the great treasure houses of diaries and letters here at the library of congress and the archives and smithsonian, but also collections at places like charlottesville, virginia. And he does research for lots of other people too. He doesnt just work with me. Cspan who else has he worked with . Guest well, he works withandahalf thain yell fill brick nathaniel philbrick, he works weve van thomas, he works with michael beschloss, a number of people. I dont know all of his clients, but hes the best. And he was, ely Hugh Washburn was a congressman from illinois who was a fellow congressman or fellow politician in illinois with Abraham Lincoln and a very close friend of Abraham Lincolns. And when lincoln became president , it was washburn as much as anybody else who kept telling lincoln youve got to give this man, grant, full chance to show what he can do. Because washburn came from georgia lee that gallena, illinois, which is where grant was living before the war started. What also distinguished him was he was one of Four Brothers who all served in congress, in the house or the senate. All four from different states, all got reelected regularly, all four had distinguished careers. One was a general in the civil war, another was as the mayor, as the governor of maine was, it appears to have been, the first person to refer to the new Political Party as the republican party. And they grew up on a Hard Scrabble farm in western maine in utteroverty. Utter poverty. And ten children, and all of those children were exceptional. And the it is an amazing, amazing story. Their mother could read, but she felt very embarrassed because she might make it embarrassing for her children who became so distinguished if she were seen to be someone who wasnt as educated as she should have been. But she was a very wise, bright woman who insisted to her children that education was everything. And if they could get an education and keep learning and keep, keep the love of learning, there was nothing they couldnt do. After the civil war was over, and, of course, grant had distinguished himself conspicuously, washburn was exhausted. And when grant became president , he first offered him the position of secretary of state. But washburn was quite ill, and he declined it three days later. He said, i cant do it. So he appointed washburn the, our minister or our ambassador to france, to arrest. Washburn went over thinking this is going to be just what i need to recover my strength and have a little peace and quiet with my family. He arrived on the eve of the francoprussian war, and in very short order, the germans were marching on paris, and in very short order the germans surrounded paris, and paris was cut off from the world. Now, all the other ambassadors for all the other powers left the city, got out, except washburn. And he said its my duty to stay here. And he stayed through the entire siege which lasted five months, and he stayed through the horrific, the god awful, bloody commune that followed where french were killing each other by the thousands in the city of paris. He not only stayed and served ainiti