Transcripts For CSPAN2 Paul 20240705

Of the 1963 childrens crusade. We do so tonight with an authors talk featuring paul kicks. Paul is the author of you have to be prepared to before you can begin ten weeks in birmingham. That america, while reflecting on a photo of Minneapolis Police officer Derek Chauvin suffocating, george floyd, paul is shocked by its parallels to the iconic may 1963 photo of a black teenager in birmingham, alabama, being attacked by a white officer and an aggressive shepherd. These similarities motivated to uncover the legacy and full history behind the historic civil rights photograph. Pauls book light on the strategy of the 1963 ten week southern christian Leadership Conference campaign end segregation led by dr. Martin luther jr. King, along with white walker, Fred Shuttlesworth and james bevel, joined the efforts of the Alabama Christian Movement for human rights to launch the Birmingham Campaign together, they sought to Bring National attention to the efforts to desegregate public facilities in birmingham, as detailed in book, paul is the first to reveal the method of project. See the marches demonstrate and sit ins that followed led to many arrests of the adults who were active in the movement and the Pivotal Moment in the movement. Oclc recruited children to carry the cause. Paul explores what happened through see and how it inflow. Wences activism today, ladies and gentlemen, paul takes. I want start by acknowledging a few different things. One of them is that i am a white man. I am married to a black woman. We three kids who identify as black and i grew up in hubbard, iowa. My wife grew up in houston texas. And you all may be wondering here in birmingham, alabama. What does this family why do they about birmingham, alabama, today . Let me tell you. In the summer of 2020, we all saw the images of as it was wayne was saying a moment ago, officer Derek Chauvin suffocated and killing george floyd. That murder personal to my family. My wife, sonya, grew up in inner city houston. She grew up one neighborhood away from george floyd. George grew up in third ward sign. He grew up in fifth ward. George the same age as son, 46. George and sonya excuse me, sonia had cousins who went to the same high school as george yates high. Sonjas friend and cousin derrick remembered george as the tight end on the eight Football Team that made it to the state championship game. So i tell you that to tell you this, georges murder was the first time that my wife and i decided to let our kids see that this was part the black experience as well. Our twin boys were then nine, our daughter was then 11, and our twin boys particular had a lot of questions about what they saw day it started. Are all cops bad . Are all cops racist . As the questions became hours and then days they evolved and they sort of took a step down towards selfhatred what does this mean for my life . Am i inferior in some way it was a really time the latter half of 2020 and so. They became despondent in some way. All three of our kids, they started to talk about how america was an awful place and they couldnt wait to move away from here just as soon as they could. And when sunny and i would try to tell them, no, no, no, its not quite like that. There be other things that would appear on the news. Jacob blake was shot later summer by kenosha, wisconsin. Cops in the back as he was walking away from them and his three children screamed from his car as he was shot. And our twin boys ran from the room that day in tears and they said, why do they keep trying to kill us. Out of those moments. I thought back to their birth, the twins boys birth in particular i again, im a white man. Im a journalist and a writer. And i have i had read already the autobiography of malcolm. Id read certain civil rights. But right after the boys born, i made it my attempt to really understand the black canon and all throughout all of american letters. And so i reacquainted myself. The Civil Rights Movement. And there was one photo in particular that happened here. It was of walter gadsden, a 15 year old boy, perhaps the most icon image to come out of this campaign. You probably all know it, but i just want to describe it, what that what it did to me when the first time i saw it in that photo, you see a german attacking the right side of. But attacking isnt really the quiet word. Its right word. Its more like hes feasting on walter all around him. People are either running in terror or seat or turning their around to see how bad hes about. Get it . And what struck me, it was the serenity on walters face. Im not sure if it was just the the split second that it was that it was felt it should be, that it was captured. It. But his arms at his side, he is peaceful. He is not fighting the dog or even protecting himself. It is as if he giving himself over to posterity in this moment. And i found something that was both horrific in that moment. And i saw something that was transcend it about that moment. What was horrific was that this was, to me, indicative of really all of the american experience. One photo, it was the terror that had been visited upon black people. It was the dignity with which so many black people within the Civil Rights Movement responded. And it was ultimately in serenity. Was this sense of transcendence that we can all as a nation move beyond even horrific moment and be more like walter and perhaps try to find a new day so that was my entry point into 1963, right after the boys were born. And that led more and more to try to figure out what exactly was photo that went alongside it. What was this campaign. And so that led me to the ten weeks in birmingham and pretty soon it was the most amazing thing id ever come across because if look at it from the perspective of. 1863 you have emancipation. In 100 years pass and numerous efforts are made to have real and lasting equality and nothing happens, nothing. And then birmingham happens and then everything. Its a sponsorship. And the summer of of 1963 by jack and Bobby Kennedy, who had been strongly against civil until then that sponsorship becomes a civil rights. Of 1964 that Civil Rights Act of 1964 becomes a Voting Rights act of 1965, becomes kings martyrdom in 1968 becomes a new life for his country and of that. The rise of the black, middle and upper. Presidency of barack obama. Then, in my own life, my ability to marry sonya in a jim crow state like texas and to raise our three kids on shaded street where harasses us for who we are, that the embodiment of kings dream and i told my kids after after saw jacob blake and, they said, we want to move away from here just as soon as they can. I said, there is a that you should hear. It is about birmingham, alabama. And even though i am a white man, rural iowa, and even your mother is a black woman, inner city houston, we not be here today were not for the ten weeks in the spring of 1963 that made all of this possible. And so i began to research more and more. And when i say i am thrilled to be here at the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute are not empty words because as i began to more and more, i came the massive oral history project that the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, alongside the Birmingham Public Library, has carried out for the better part of 30 years. I dont think its too much to say that basically every person of consequence in 1963 was interviewed by one of these two institutions, often both of them. And that record today is what made book like this possible. So just as much as we say as you guys say, thank you for coming. Thank you. I wouldnt be here today. I wouldnt have the life i have were it not for birmingham, i wouldnt published this book were it not for this institute institute. You guys made all of this possible. And i am unbelievably to so thank. One thing i found as i was researching more and more calling when i first got in touch with with wayne and with jim baggett at the Birmingham Public Library, i just started to read more broadly into the Civil Rights Movement. Something strange struck and. This was still in the summer of 2020. I didnt really know. Well, actually, im going to tell you guys and cspan to a secret that i havent actually shared with anybody. I had. My first book was called the saboteur it was out and i was looking to pursue book when george floyd killed. In fact, my agent and i had actually presented it to publishers is basically means that lets see if we can do something. Ed nothing to do with civil rights. It actually to do with a politician. And once after george floyd happened and i began to read more of this of birmingham in particular, i called my agent and i said, can we tell the editors to put project on hold, meaning like, i dont want anybody to even bid on this as a book proposal. I dont want to do this anymore. Theres whole other book i want to do. Hes like, well, what is it . And i said, have you ever heard of confrontation . And goes, what . And i go, exactly exactly. Here is the truth of birmingham. As i found in the civil rights canon, and this is done predominantly by historians and this is meant as no slight against any of those historians, but almost every single historian or journalist before me has decided to do some sort, exhaustive campaign of the Civil Rights Movement right. This was taylor branchs work back in the 1980s. Diane mcwhorter more than 20 years ago, one wrote an amazing and Pulitzer Prize book on birmingham. It covers the Birmingham Campaign. It covers her own life. It goes through the the of 1963 with the bombing of the 16th street baptist church. My point here is a narrative one, i wanted a book that captured i wanted a story that captured what just happened in that spring every again 100 years and nothing and then ten weeks and everything. Whats the story of those weeks . And i looked and i looked and i looked and im like, it doesnt exist. So the reason i called my agent and, i said, cancel it. Im writing Something Else. And goes, what is it . I said, its project confrontation. Hes and he goes, what is that . I said, its birmingham. Hes like the fire hoses. Im like, you have no idea how. Its so much than that. I saw it as a writer, an opportunity in the richest of of in possibly the deepest of all american tenants. Right. The Civil Rights Movement. There might be more about it than anything than perhaps a civil war. But for some reason, no book had ever just covered those ten weeks. What happened in those ten weeks . Who were the major . What like day by day . What went down . That became my obsession. And the more i researched is the some of 2020 became the fall of 2020 even into the spring of 2021. I saw something that was not just an incredibly rich narrative and a nuanced one. We often today just talk for a minute about that nuance think about we think about like dr. King, like Fred Shuttlesworth, like james bevel, like wyatt walker, Ralph Abernathy. We think of them as almost angelic characters. The truth in birmingham, they had huge egos and they were at each other. There was a line that i used that i paraphrase from another Civil Rights Movement. Each of these men could bow before god, but could they could stand mighty tall in front of each other. Thats what thats what happened in the spring of 1963. And i wanted capture that. I wanted to capture that sort of dynamic arc of what was going on, because in the spring of 1963 and we were here in birmingham. But but just in, you dont fully understand it. It was the most violent, the most racist, the most dangerous place in america. The klan castrated black men, the cops raped black women in their patrol. You guys actually, some of those documents here at the vcr, i edward murrow, the cbs news anchor and reporter, came to birmingham prior to kings just prior project confrontation. And he said to his producer as he left, i have never seen any place like this since nazi germany. That was bull Connors Birmingham and incredibly awful. And it was i would more like a site of domestic terror than a city really. And the sclc broke the Albany Campaign one year prior had been an abysmal failure. King was mocked not only the southern press, not only by the northern coming out of albany, but by other civil rights groups. John lewis, his student nonviolent coordinating committee, had many members who openly sneered at the middle aged king, called him a phony. So thats our time now your time is passed. And they basically hadnt had there was a reason was there was there was there was a reason why not necessarily lewis per se but others within snick would reach that conclusion. Yes youll see had not had any victor three in seven years. Now people may take offense to that and say well what about the montgomery bus boycott . Heres what i would say if you go back and look at the historical record as i did in montgomery in 1963, black people had gone back to riding the busses like. Was 1943. It was as if 1955 and 1956 didnt even matter. And the Supreme Court orders didnt either. Just like by the way brown versus board of education never reached birmingham. So there broke broke. Theyve had nothing but failure for seven years and want to go to the most dangerous place in america. White walker then executive director, a man who i call brilliant in the book, but also kind of a moral. And well get into why i get to the reading, why, walker said in the secret Planning Session that they had. This was two months prior to birmingham they didnt even invite the rest. The executive board there. King didnt even invite his own father to this secret mission because they were going to discuss most dangerous idea in the whole the Civil Rights Movement. Thats the language used. The most dangerous idea. Should we go to birmingham . And white walkers said, given where we are, we will either break or we will be broken by it. There was real concern that not only were they going to die, by the way, king delivered a mock eulogy that day to everybody in preparation for whats going happen and even told them it is in my that i dont think were all going to come back from this campaign. But even after that, there was the still larger of if they lose in birmingham the southern christian Leadership Conference. It didnt have any more reputation, didnt have any more money. They were going to dissolve. If they dissolve, if king is no longer the leader. What happens to the Civil Rights Movement as a whole . Jim folsom, the governor and in the 1950s, he at least alluded to civil rights in alabama when he said all people that are to be people are just alike. George wallace comes in three months prior to project confrontation, start segregation now, segregation forever. Kings concern is going into birmingham. Only may we lose our lives not only may, may sclc disband, dissolve, but whats going to happen to the movement as a whole if we dont win . Here are more people like George Wallace going to become even more emboldened . Are more are more Public Safety commissioners like bull connor are going to surface, are more people going to run their cities by fear this was the biggest gamble of their lives. And when they went to new york. And the quote comes from mr. Fred shuttlesworth who was there that night at Harry Belafontes apartment, theyre trying get their money from all these rich york donors to be like this. The biggest gamble of our lives and want you all to put your money on this this. No one wanted to do it until the man of the hour and man that i wish i wish would be as known as dr. King the reverend Fred Shuttlesworth, a man of just unbelievable courage, started to tell stories from life just before the campaign to these rich new york donors. Harry belafonte was there. Of course, hes organizing the event. Sidney poitier was there. Ossie Davis Hollywood producers newspaper publishers. And theyre like, what happens in bulls, birmingham, bull connors. These are cool. Let me tell you, i tried to integrate the birmingham bus line not long after dr. King and Ralph Abernathy did it down in montgomery. I told bull connor the day after christmas, im going to do it. And bull connors klan that night bombed my with 16 sticks of dynamite. I was standing one room away from where that dynamite hit. It blasted all the way through my house. I landed in ruins. The house was a complete mess and. I emerged from those ruins and i the people whod come around, a lot of people, the congregants from his Bethel Baptist church. And he said i told them, put those guns because the people were tired of this. Were tired of bull Connors Birmingham, which was then known as bombingham. Put those guns up. We believe in nonviolence. And then he told that crowd in new york, do you know what i did the next day i integrated the bus line in. It stunned everyone, not just the members of Bethel Baptist church, not just the cops who were amazed that he had live and now had the temerity to try to actually do the thing that he said he was going to do bull connor, like 50 more cops on patrol. By the way, these arent cops like. Are there any members of Law Enforcement here tonight . Theyre not cops. Fred didnt care. Somebody asked him that night in new york, do you . How how how do you do this . You looked at them . And you said you have to be prepared to die before. You can begin to live and and that line wowed the donors. This was now a cause that was romantic of course, you have to be prepared to die before can begin to live. Thats the only way to live there. Thats the only way that this campaign could possibly. They gave 475,000 that night, 4 million today. It was the single biggest haul in sclc history. Campaign was, an abysmal failure when it started, an abysmal failure. Why walker had all plans. Hed start from 16th street baptist church. He said he would tie down to the second how long it took old man to walk from 16th street downtown and, how long it took a young man to do the same, had it tied down to the none of it mattered. None of it mattered. A couple of reasons. Number one, black birmingham adults did not like this from atlanta coming in saying. Weve been living here all our lives. Who are you . King by the way, they they had heard all the stories theyd read all the stories about. King the phony come in here with this national platform. You going to stick around . Fred shuttlesworth had, those same concerns, by the way, fred didnt know. I didnt know. Martins real name. That was one concern. There was another. The other concern was far more economic over percent of black birmingham at that time was domestic workers. Every single white employee said if you march with king, you are fired. The rest of the middle two professional class teachers, lets actually with the Teachers First teachers was a white superintendent at that time. Do you think that white superintendent would have allowed any of those teachers to go march alongside king without losing their jobs . There were members, black lawyers of who who had passed, who could not even argue cases in birmingham. And now king comes and is telling these these black lawyers, we want you to march like im going to get this board. If i march alongside you. Even a. G. Gaston in famed gaston motel, well, on his way to being the richest man in all of america, well on his way to being one of the richest people in all of america, he said this. You, you guys, you guys, youve got leave. You dont understand how this city works. And it didnt work. And so we talked a little about white walker. We talked about the bravery of Fred Shuttlesworth. I want to talk for a second about the righteousness the ingenuity of the third deputy and, the other major protagonist of this book, james bevel. I dont know if you know much about james bevel. James bevel facet me now. Everybody else is sort of middle aged, that sort of conservative movement man suit. Right. The black tie. I dont know if any of you have seen if you guys ever seen any photos of james bevel. James bevel wore country like out his native mississippi from a been in mississippi he wore a yarmulke on his head because he said he was half jewish. He loved the Old Testament prophets. He loved the righteousness. People in the movement called him the prophet himself and the prophet said one day to Martin Luther king king, if we cant get the adults, we got to get the kids. And Martin Luther king junior was like, are you out of your mind . In bull connors in birmingham . You want to use kids . Hes like, yeah i do. He had gone around and james bevel had talked with a lot of kids, a lot of teenagers. They understood what their parents were dealing with. They not only the economic ramification, but they understood as well, just like this would be their life to 100 years. Nothing had changed. Its about to be 120. Unless we can do something right now to stop it. Thats the thats the sort of language they use with james bevel when he held these afternoon pep rallies, he tried bevel tried to tell king theyre ready. King and king wanted nothing to do with it. No one in the sclc did. But bit by bit, james bevel. He kept working with these kids. He take them to afterschool training, like at 16th street baptist church, other places here around town. He one time walked him to a cemetery. And i love this line, it kind of echoes this line. You walk them to a cemetery, its like 50, 60 kids at this point. The word had spread to this james bevel guy. Hes hes a weird dude, but hes a lot to say. And he walks into the cemetery he says, look around. In 50 to 60 years, youre all going to be. What are you going to do while youre alive the kids loved . Soon dozens of kids became scores of kids became hundreds of kids. And by late april 1963, the thousands of kids and by then king had nobody Left Campaign was anemic. He never actually. King never. Actually. Okay, lets use the kids, james bevel just said, were going to launch something dday and double dday. Guess what . That happened 60 years ago this week, dday, double dday. Now, we all know about the fire hoses. As i said. Fire hoses. Dont really capture what happened on dday right across the street, killingworth park park. In fact, nothing that i had read before captured what exactly happened until i was able to piece together thanks to all these oral histories at the birmingham civil rights. I want to read to you what actually happened during double dday. So to set it up. Children camp Childrens Campaign starts on may 2nd, 1963. On that day National Media is there, interNational Media is there. And that days peaceful. Bull connor is wiley. He knows all these camera crews are here. Im not going to play in the kings game king wants me to beat him up. Not going to do it. Theyre all arrested. All these kids, 800, 900 kids arrested, thrown in the birmingham jail, which is what king wanted. Fill the jails. Fill them all. Because the more we fill the jails the more the more optical illusion we have that shows of mass support that we have. And soon if we fill all the jails. Bush is going to have to make a choice because if all the jails are full, wheres he going to put the next days . Protesters or is he going to finally be as violent as we he can be . What was the game . What were they after in birmingham . Was it the integration, the city of birmingham . Yes, it was to integrate the most racist segregated city in the nation was a huge part of that. There was a bigger game. There was a much bigger game. They were playing for 100 years. Theyve been trying to get some form of civil legislation. Numerous people in this country, Martin Luther king junior, had even gone in late. November 1962 to try to say jack and kennedy, please, nows the time. 100 years after, emancipate nation, lets write a second emancipation. Lets offer no jack and bobby, nothing to do with that. They wanted to do with that because civil rights bill might harm jfks bid in. 1964. So what birmingham really about heres what birmingham was really about. Birmingham was really lets turn our bodies into metaphors of the black experience itself because if we can do that and if a New York Times reporter is scribbling as that happens or, if Walter Cronkites camera crew is as that happens, then just maybe we can get the audience that we really want the two men sitting at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. And if we can convince them that this is america, maybe just maybe they will say now is time to change america. That was the real game in birmingham. And what role did the kids play. Lets speak honestly. What is copy . What is footage and children going up against bull connor, the sclc knew this was going to be huge if this actually took place and they had to come to grips with that, that is what doubleday was also about. Friday, may 3rd and 1500 kids, not even with a veneer of lead of heading to school, 1500 kids who skipped it entirely and didnt give a about. Bull connors decree of permanent expulsion. Or judging from subsequent their parents finger wagging, to stay away from kelly ingram park. Today was double d day. Thats what james bevel and wyatt walker were calling it. 1500 kids walked straight to 16th street baptist, a move that frankly may have helped their teachers. Governor George Wallace had threatened overnight to have any educator charged with criminal collaboration for aiding a childs today. They poured into the church. 1500. 2000 more. One report stated that only 887 of the citys 7386 black High School Students attended school that friday. Of the thousands who appeared at 16th street baptist were children come yesterday. This is day but had not made to the front the front of the church be arrested. There were kids seen the arrest on the news and wanted play their part. Now in double d day, a lot of children were brand new to nonviolence. Theyve never even shown. James bevel pulled all those kids aside and started the training. He passed a trash can around through the ranks. And this is one of my favorite parts. Soon that trashcan was half full with knives and brass that the kids are discarded. Its like were going to start a nonviolence, but its got to happen today today. Not so much as a peach pit. James bevel yelled. Should be on you when you march. Meanwhile, around a m. Martin luther king jr. Fred shuttlesworth had a press conference in the open air courtyard of the gas motel. We intend to negotiate from strength. King told the crush of reporters crowded around local columnists, National Outlets european camera crews. If the white power structure of this city will consider meeting some of our minimum demands, then we will consider calling off the demonstrations. The sclc had talked about this last night and into the morning. The jails were to bursting with more kids primed for incarceration this afternoon. Where would mayor boutwell and bull connor put them all . King argued it was in the citys best interest to sit down with him and right now and negotiate the terms of desegregation in birmingham. We want promises. Plus action. King told the reporters. But what he didnt say was what he and had known all along why walker even for in that initial planning memo january. If the goal to leave bull connor no good, then the result might be bold lashing out. Turning his terrible vengeance on the protesters. This case children the sclc had to be prepared. That which meant king had to make his peace with it. He didnt say this to the newsman, in part because didnt know what sort of pain bull connor inflict today. As the morning wore on, it became clearer. Across the street at kelly park were not only the cops in helmets and k9 corps and the tanks display from yesterday, but also new firefighters unfurled water hoses and train the nozzles on the church since april, berm since april. Excuse me. Birmingham fire. John swindell had heard bull connor bellow about his fear. A mass of black protesters marching the white owned downtown. Connor had demanded that swindell turn the hoses on any black protester who tried to march downtown. This this suggests an appalled swindle. Hed been able to deter connor but even argue he had even argued that the firemans union strongly disapproved of fire hoses being used as, quote, crowd control. But with a deluge of protesters yesterday, bull had ordered to unfurl the hoses. Swindell had again argued it just this morning. Fire engines are tied to hydrants can simply walk away you, he said. So bull ordered swindell to put even more fire engines in the park, but said no one was walking or marching anywhere today. The jails were full. The message clear bow would beat the crowds because he could not afford arrest them. Swindell could either obey boyles order or be fired. Chief swindell was not fired that day. The pep rally, the freedom anthems, the kids sweating from the exertion of swing of singing in the surrounding body heat today felt a bit like inside the 16th street baptist church. In the final moments before james bevel opened the doors to that glare of the afternoon. Today was also different. There were too many cops outside for one. Hundreds them as if the whole focus excuse me as if the whole force had shown up. Cops and tanks and all those fire trucks. It looked like a battle against the apocalypse when the kids out the windows for the kids whod been inside the church yesterday, they saw so many more onlookers on the street. One estimate later put it at 3000 people, most of them black, some of them parents of the kids in the church. All of them staring at the show of force. Connor assembled. Bull connor had ordered the white army onto the street. Carolyn mckinstry, a 14 year old whod been at the church, the day prior but hadnt marched later if bull meant for them to surprise, frighten us. His plan worked. She found strength in the School Friends around her, clapping and singing. She told herself she would not back down. She would march today. She would. She would right the wrongs bevel had highlighted in the workshops shed attended. Why there were white and colored lines in city. Why she couldnt go to k. D. , the local amusement park. Mckinstry was just child, but she vowed to do something that might make her childrens lives better. The time came. No violence, devil said. The whole of the congregation inside 16th street. I am just the day before. Then much like yesterday, the church doors swung wide. The first group of 50 marched out. These children saw how police barricaded certain streets around the park while thousands of and hundreds of press men effectively cordoned off the other side of the parks avenues. There was one place for the children to march straight toward the fire trucks. The kids tried to be as they approached the singer. They sang a call and response number. Were going walk, walk, walk. Freedom freedom. One girl noticed the firefighters dressed in full suits and helmets, holding giant hoses. She thought, where is that fire . It must be massive. Then she watched as the novels, as the nozzles leveled her fellow protesters. James bevel never said a word about water hoses. She thought bull connor stood in a suit and tie just behind the line of firemen as his children, with his one good eyeball, was actually blind in one of his eyes. He said out of the other he was to see the full truth and glory of the white man man. Captain evans of the police department, a few feet from connor, put a bullhorn to his lips. Disperse, shouted, or youre going to get wet. The kids had been trained not to disperse. They inched forward again. Some children saw how it took three or four firemen just to hold a hose. Other firemen quickly mounted their hoses, massive metal tripods, as if the water was artillery, as if the water that would rush out the force of a cannon. Last chance, evans said through the bullhorn. The kids did not move. Evans told the firemen to the nozzles to, quote, fogging this would drench the kids. Perhaps half the strength of the hoses potential. Evans watched the children. The children inched forward again. Like a geyser the water shout out. The force was strong to send many children fleeing and, screaming in pain. That water. One teenage boy later said after the dousing the shouts and and then the mist that spread in the waters weight. Onlookers saw something amazing. About ten kids had refused to move. These teenage boys and girls complete. Ali soaked held their ground and even continued to sing as more sprays of water hit. They grabbed each others hands for balance and then lifted them to the sky. They raised these hands as one and belted out a single word of a song over. And over until everyone in the park could hear it. Freedom i just want to pause real quick. You guys have here at the institute this photo. Its ten kids completely drenched and you can see them. It brings tears in my eyes every time i see it. The defiance the plea of their one word anthem. Still photographer has had the presence of mind to capture this moment. One is instantly iconic. The marines raising the flag on iwo jima. Bull connor saw these kids as something other than freedom fighters, though he saw them as degenerates trying to wrest control of the afternoon from him, blast them with that water. One protester heard both shout. Some firemen hesitated here, the nozzles on full strength. One firefighter later said. Good lord, i was scared to death about what might happen if actually turn the nozzles to full power. But in order from bull, an order from bull, obey will be canned. The moment of indecision stretched out. In the end, we can be said, is that no firefighter had. The bravery of those ten children standing no more than 30 feet from them. No fireman walked away from his job that day. Instead, this one, the firefighters cranked up the pressure and steadied themselves. The water lashed the singing stopped immediately, as if from automatic machine gun fire. In the words of one writer. The force of the water flattened the kids. One teenage boy tried to rise again and a stream hit him square in the face and backflip. I actually saw this footage. Its he backflips and he lands flat on stomach and almost does like a 360. These fire hoses, these fire either held by four men or mounted on metal tripods so highly pressurized the water that its power could knock bricks loose from mortar or strip bark from trees at a distance of 100 feet. The struck down some children at 30 feet. It stripped shirt off. One boy just kind of disengage it. The kids shouted in agony as they began a slow retreat. Slow. Some children kept trying to stand against the waters wrath. They did not want to leave the park. It was at that point that james bevel sent out the next 50 kids reinforcements. From then on the day showcased in almost otherworldly bravery and savagery. One girl walked into the water and a cartoon wheeled her through the park and over, over end, when the water hit another girl, it flattened her on the sidewalk. The firemen then had the cruelty to focus that hissing stream on her exposed back. The water slid her down the street. Perhaps feet as she screamed pain and fear. Elsewhere, children huddled behind trees or light poles or just attempt to use other as shields against that rushing stinging fury. We could hear the firemen yelling knock the nword down. One girl later said the crowd, some 3000 people. And again some of them parents retaliated. They threw whatever was near the fire bottles, rocks, even the bricks. The fire hoses had dislodged. Bull connor did not like that. He ordered the firemen to train water on the crowd, too. This only increased the debris thrown at the firemen. The fight was on now massive cops cracking people across the skull. Footage showed victims bleeding their temples and bull antagonizing the crowd by hopping into that white tank his that he drove everywhere and driving now up and down 16th street north as more bottles and bricks rained down on it and still the next group of 50 protesters, the hissing water, the screaming children, the freedom songs between the screams bevel out another 50. Because what was a metaphor . The black experience in america, if not this moment. And 14 year old Carol Mckinstry in this group trying to act bravely trying to sing, marching in the park as the water leveled the kids in front her and now her two hitting her in the face and hissing across her hair line, pulling it from the roots, scalping her effectively and making her cry in pain. And then the canine caught bull trying to grab control of the afternoon by unleashing the chaos of the police department. German shepherds the dogs snarling and biting whomever they wished as adults fled or children tried to avert them like bullfighters. One of the dogs, a black German Shepherd named nword, vicious in the words of one teenage girl who saw that day, lunged at a small a child protester and its teeth around the boys throat and shook its head from side to side until eventually it let boy go and the child was to the hospital and another 50 marching on the 16th street baptist. Then another and one group of firemen train, their hose on a huddled mass of children on their knees on the sidewalk, completely defenseless at a distance of perhaps 15 feet. The wails from these kids and elsewhere in the park, the overwhelming power a hose such that the four firemen holding it can no contain the thing. The hose itself spraying water, twisting wildly like some angry, venomous serpent. Until one firefighter tried to grab of it and the nozzle slapped him hard across the face and knocked out cold and the press capturing all of this, all of it. Those hundreds of press men from across the world filming, everything the afternoon shading into something darker still. A white man driving his car into the crowd, and then black teenager fighting a cop and grabbing that cops gun from his holster as the cops reclaimed it by beating back the kid before he could shoot and elsewhere. Or rather everywhere the streams, water and the dogs. Absolutely crazed now. One German Shepherd named leo attacked a 15 year old boy named walter gadsden. The leaping in air and clamping down on gadsden exposed right core. His and obliques like the dog was feasting on the boy. Good lord, the carnage of this day. Nbcs reporter r. W. Apple stopping to just himself in one moment and saying to life photographer charles moore. Ive seen anything like this in my life. A sentiment that apple would repeat for decades after even when reporting from war. Nothing him nothing frightened him. Like double dday in birmingham, alabama. And in that moment his apple spoke to more more thought about his own life. Three years as a photographer in. The marines, for christs sake, and agreed with apple, commenting of the dogs were the worst of it at least for him. The snarl of the German Shepherds, how they ripped flesh, how the victims screamed in equal parts pain and terror. It revolting moore later said. And neither man that at various corners around the park, around the. Wyatt walker of the sdlc, the executive director, the sdlc had enlisted sdlc deputies to dog whistles blow them as hard as they could because walker wanted this scene, wanted these optics. Everything must escalate. But he had no case. The idea. King he just did it. Walker to instigate a white rage in the consequent black suffering were in fact native to birmingham and had been since its founding in too. And the quicker walker could show all that the press who would in turn show it to the nation. Hell world. The sooner wyatt walker could get what he wanted from that and world equality a of a line to on americas dirt. And yet what was project c if not the filmed pain of white walkers fellow black people . That had been his rationale all along and everyone elses in the sclc too. But now that the day was here and those doing the suffering were children, james bevel went outside at 3 p. M. To hours and a lifetime after the protests had begun and shouted to the kids to move back into the church. Bevel had seen enough. Around this time a Police Inspector William Haley walked into 16th street baptist and found king. The cop looked queasy and told king both sides needed to call it off for the day. It was unclear if the cop was negotiating with bull connors approval. King had been watching the last 2 hours himself. Was only too happy to accept the truce. As one writer later put it, he had seen enough for one day to. That was double. Its complex story. Hard story. But how you get to here after 100 years. It was wyatt walker so long long. This is a question i weigh as a parent all the time. In your archives, there are so many interviews with so many parents, friends of Fred Shuttlesworth, sometimes activists alongside fred. In the days when birmingham was just as dangerous. And they were castrating black men, or they were like taking a cattle and labeling them, that happened. What if one of freds good friends happened to him, burned with kkk on his side. And now its their kids and its real hard to come to grips with that. What i can and what your archives show. Is that the kids knew what they were doing. They had been trained bevel. They had been trained by Fred Shuttlesworth. They knew it might get this bad. James bevel had shown them footage, one of his first protests in nashville. In 1960, and that footage you see, you see white diner owners and white patrons within this diner taking people and throwing them over off the counter, them over the counters. It got worse than that. The owner of that diner. Made sure to keep all the black people inside, locked the doors, and then literally the place. Theres footage of this. Theres theres people struggling to breathe until the Nashville Fire Department breaks down the doors. And, you know, when fred assures me when james bevel showed that should footage to the kids in birmingham and you know the first thing he told them birmingham will be worse by orders of magnitude. He was not wrong. And you know how many kids away and said, i dont want to take part in this . None. They knew what they were doing. They were young, but they were brave and they were smart. What i didnt read to you is what happened later that night at the mass meeting, king tried to preside, and the parents came. They were not. They were not happy at all. And i understand why white walker. I would alter my morality for the sake of winning. Thats the executive director of the sclc. I would alter my morality for the sake of winning. Its tough. Thats why i say its a bit of a line to draw in america after. Thats what it took to win in birmingham birmingham. Were going to have a chance this weekend to celebrate what the 60 60 anniversary. And when i had a chance to pore through archives here and elsewhere and piece all of this together. I realize it was so much more than the fighting, the fire we see on some grainy pbs documentary. Nothing against the pbs documentaries. Great, but it doesnt capture what actually happened that day. If you get a chance to see them, im going to get a chance to see them tomorrow. I mean, go with wayne to breakfast. Tell them thank you. I wrestle with it a lot. I really do. I dont know where i fall. Im so grateful for what happened in birmingham. And they had to realize, like, we have to make really hard choice here. What is it going to take us to win . What is it going to take for us to finally break segregation . What i can tell you to jump ahead in this book doesnt, give it entirely away. But to jump way ahead in may of 1963. Birmingham is integrated. Fred shuttlesworth greatest life, everything man had fought for his whole life in birmingham. And then it was even better for king because happened after that is black people say in greenville or down montgomery, maybe in new orleans and then north, the masondixon line in chicago and boston and new york york, they said, well, if if most racist and segregated city in america can be integrated, i want my integration to to. And thats where the of this ten weeks if youre a person of faith a little bit miraculous becomes something that even king had in foreseen because there wasnt just one birmingham there was 20, there was 50, there was 100. So what did what Bobby Kennedy have to do. He had to tip his hat to Martin Luther king, say, i have to consider this now politically. Remember, bobby is jacks protector. He is like the morally abrasive sort of one in that white house candidate cabinet excuse me, is like politically now, now in our interest to try to resolve this. We have to consider civil rights. And i will say theres a final turn in the book where i would argue that the greatest sort of intellectual and spiritual transfer motion in this book is actually Bobby Kennedys, because of what happens throughout may, june. It becomes far more than just a political argument for bobby, who is also a man of deep faith. But may second, may, third, may 4th. If were going to isolate ten weeks that forever, the trajectory of america, we can further isolate three days. Those the three days we are in them right now. That changed america forever. That allowed me to come here. That allowed to marry my wife, that allowed me to raise my kids on the street where nobody harasses us. I take pride. Im very grateful for birmingham. If if there are any questions about like what happened, what else happened on may 2nd or third or just anything else, im to field them. If everybody doesnt have anything. Yes, right here. Since you it for yourself have your children read that . Oh, i can think about is the teenagers tomorrow little little but what have they read and or have they. I have told them i have. I have. I have. Yes. Have read double dday. Ive told them lot of times about it and theyve had a lot of questions about it. And what i really think. You know, not only is this a story about danger and courage and what it takes to do that, its i really think that those ten weeks, the ingenuity took because again, their plans failed. They had to constantly think things up the courage it took, the faith. It took kindness, it took this massive, massive egos had to find a way to coexist. Thats not just great story. Thats like a guide to life thats really why i wrote this book for the kids. And its not for them either. Its like, look, the pandemic tough on everybody in some way or another. Last few years have been tough. I know i, for one just got so sick and tired of all the negativity that surrounded me. And to, you know, to look at the actions of what the sclc, what those what those kids in birmingham, you can just think like, i want to try to live my life that way, right. So if if anybody who reads this book comes away, anything, keep that in mind. Yes. Its a book thats explicitly dedicated. My children an open letter to my three kids. But its really guide to life for anybody who chooses to it. I truly believe that. Anything else you. Should give you an opportunity. Give marchers. Yeah. So so so this is this is a im going to answer this question a roundabout way, if i may. When i was in college, i took a few biblical study classes. And in those biblical study, its like the history of the bible sort of stuff. Youre taught fairly early in those classes that the text you want to consult are the texts that are written closest to the event whenever it happened. Right. So. One way to answer that is like somebody like janice, she and i have been in contact with each other and im going to actually try to meet up with her tomorrow. She played an integral role in dday a longer way to answer that is, even though some of these people are still alive, what they gave to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute or the Birmingham Public Library like 30 years ago, their memories were that much fresher. And because again, i cannot say this enough because because i did such an amazing job in these oral histories, i oftentimes like, i actually dont have any follow up questions like this. Exactly what i wanted to know about what those ten weeks, it was like perfect. Like every time im like, i just want the goods. I dont want the full life story. Im or some of the life story, but like, just tell me what happened that spring and time after time they went right to heres what those days were like. I was like, this is exactly what i need. So in some sense i actually didnt reach out to that many of those people for those reasons. And also because at this point, even when i was doing the majority, the research in 2020, 2021, a lot of them have passed now. Yeah. Which is again, a credit to this institute, that it was such a concerted effort for such long time to say, lets gather this stuff before everybody passes the part. And, you know, just oh, and you know so i just happened, to be honest with you. Im staying at the red mont down. Yeah. And im like fifth avenue north. I dont see that anymore. Ive walked the streets in my mind full of cards, so just. Just like every time. Every time i would come down here a couple of years ago, i was down here, i was like, wow. Because its right next to kelly ingram park, right and of course, the book is not just those days, but like i got so much information from those three days that you look out on the park and theres 16th street baptist and now heres eight and now heres the gaston motel air sac. Whoa whoa, this is amazing. And there was at least when i was here in 2020, i dont know if the city changes some of the images and some of the some of the kids were activists but was one girl whose photo i always loved, she was being arrested and just called her the defiant girl. You see this look on her face like, what are you going to do to me now, copper and her hands are behind her back. And i just love that image. Almost as much as the gadsden image. And in the city, when i first came here, the city had it out on the walk again, i didnt look today to see it was out. But but its just it comes alive and it gives me goose. Its giving me goosebumps. Right. You know, its right. Its, you know, its such an old trope the faulkner line the the the the past isnt dead. Its not even past. But you come here to birmingham and youre like, yeah, this living this is right here, this is still with us. And thats Something Else i wanted to capture. I wanted to almost the book like, you know, viscerally alive, you know, like this is, this is 1963, but i want it to resonate. 2023. Yeah thank you for that. Anything else. Yeah. So, like you paul, i was fascinated with bevel as well. Yes, it was nerve wracking. He came here, he visited the institute somewhere around 98, 99, did he yeah, but i read that he was the person who put the strategy together, the selma to montgomery march. Mm. Could you talk about that little bit. The selma to montgomery. Yeah. What he did, i mean as the strategist, primary strategist. So yeah. So so okay to try to frame this up, james bevel is kind of like the young guy when he comes into the birmingham. Hes kind of the young guy whod been king and recruited him over from the student nonviolent coordinating committee. And then after that, and especially after birmingham, because of what he does during the childrens crusade, he becomes ever more central to the sort of executive leadership of the sclc and his strategy, like king used to say that bevel both fascinated and frightened him because theres was like the originality of his thoughts and sort of the righteousness which he he carried out anything. So in selma, montgomery, that that march, its kind of like devils like i want to do in birmingham where we can have the press present. And this is going to be our push now, like we have Civil Rights Act, but we need more we need more and strategy. There was just in some sense the same thing. How i best put the foot where they need to be so that they can captured by the press just on and on and on and incredibly original thinker and yes somebody deeply fascinated by. I will say that when it when it comes to the birmingham hero here, i a very quick personal side. I had worked at espn for 17 years and then in november of 2020, not long, i began the research for this, not after, not long after it had sold to. The publisher celadon. I got laid off and i didnt know i was terrified. I was like, i was like, son, my mother in law lives with us too. Shes from inner city houston as well. And and i was the primary breadwinner. And now i dont have a job and now i have this book and. This book is unwieldy. And whats whats going happen . And i came to the institute and i did a ton of research and one day i was at the gift shop and there was a photo of Fred Shuttlesworth and i had read a lot by that point. The the late night where he gave that speech. And Harry Belafonte apartment. And id read a lot about have to be prepared to die before you can begin to live. And to me it means not only like the physical courage, but its almost like a spiritual thing. You have to prepare yourself to give yourself over to whatevers going to come next. And thats the only way you can. I really think that fred meant it in lots different ways. So to bring it, back to the institute that day, i that photo i bought a little small photo and i put it my my home and my computer. This came at a time when like i didnt know exactly what i was going to do and i decided im going to im going to try to go it alone. I try to be i always wanted to be a writer and an author of my own, not relying on anybody, see if i can make and every day i was scared, not every day, but there were many days i was scared out of my mind and i would write what i needed to write for the book. And when when that was tough or when other stuff would work. And sometimes id just look at freds photo and be like, fred, what do you think . And, you know, hes like, it just it he was just an unending source of courage and strength over last few years. I really feel that i came to know him in some sense, even though he died, i think in 2011. I think it was and im deeply, deeply grateful that i got a chance to understand who he was in the life that he lived and how amazing he was. Yeah. Everythings something i yeah its i dont want to go through my resume now but Everything Everything ended up turning out just fine and i have again Fred Shuttlesworth to thank for a big part that if you want to say yes, yes, that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Its good. I really i, i my hope is that well i have a lot of hopes for this book. I hope that it sells really well. But one of the hopes that i have for this book is really that just more americans will be aware of like who james bevel was. Right. Well, understand the sort of complicated morality that white walker had. Right. Well, understand, like just who Fred Shuttlesworth was like. Its there. Fred shuttlesworth should be national icon. Do you guys. Fred shuttlesworth name is listed as a defendant in more cases that reached the Supreme Court, some people are not. And so you know this and so i didnt know this until i researched it then any other american ever Fred Shuttlesworth versus city of birmingham, Fred Shuttlesworth versus state of alabama. Fred shuttlesworth versus United States over and over and over and over like. Thats how dedicated this man was to civil and freedom and equality. And just like living man, like just not afraid to die, to be prepared to live, man yes. So what do you want for you . I have sat on a Panel Last Week with, jim, through here. Um, another nonprofit organizer and. Someone asked the question whos the next king . Oh yeah, the next. And the response was. Theres never, man. Yeah, they did what they did. And now where he goes, yeah. So what was your challenge be . And to the young because that, that that is the time of the bone marrow. The teens. Yeah. I think thats thats a good point. So im going to answer that a couple of ways. The is that i, i think that the person who commented is right you should never be the next anybody. You should be the first you and however that ends up manifesting itself in the world great i think im actually im not too cynical kids and youth today if you look at say the young legislators down in tennessee right think both of those guys are correct me if im offended knows i think both of them are in their twenties right. Theyre theyre doing something thats i mean, like if you look a few years back, who were the people who were on streets during all the black lives matter protests . It were kids they were they were teenagers. 20 something year old. My daughter wanted play a huge role. We live in connecticut. She went to play a huge role in it. You know, in our own and outside of hartford. A slightly more complicated way to that question is i see a lot regression. I see it in the book, i see it in book burnings as if that suddenly thats a thing. Again, i see it in the exhausting discussion of exactly. Critical race theory is should we be teaching it . Its like thats just its america. Like just teach it all all. But somebody who is i like to say that i straddle the line between liberalism and progressivism and my own sort of politics. Im sort of deeply ashamed of the left right now to the age of cancel culture and the weird obsess with skin deep identity. I understand the need to say that there has been structural racism. I completely get that. Like sonia and i were, the original woke right . Like we we live long before. It was cool. Let me tell you on the streets of dallas texas we were out there is we used to joke we used to joke with like look another interracial like. But ill give you a couple for instance that that sign i just this is these are anecdotes. I think they speak to something thats happening on the left right now right now university of california berkeley theres off Student Housing for bipoc students so, black Indigenous People of color. Do you know that in that off campus housing, no white person can enter . I dont enter i dont think Fred Shuttlesworth would be in favor of that. Do you know that, not long after george floyd was killed, the very progressive students at New York University tried very hard to pass a new School Policy that, said that black students should not be daubed in the same residences as white students. That does not sound like the dream that martin king had. And so throughout the left you see, i think it is actually sort of the polar i think the far right is like is is insane with a book. Bands just drop it but its also like books being banned on the left to suddenly we cant read mark twain because the nword is used that to be this is a theres an american document as much as anything else thats at least my argument i feel that there is regression everywhere and perhaps more than ever, we should about 60 years ago and in fact, maybe this is a way to close it. We talked a little bit about kings famous dream. I dont know if i shared with you, wayne, when i was here. April 16th at 16th street baptist church, king took the stage at a mass meeting and he said, i had a dream tonight. I had a dream that little white boys would to school with little black girls and that they would swim together and play in the park together. And then he sort of in that famous king crescendo, he said, yes i had a dream tonight. That line was uttered first. Birmingham alabama. Thats another way that birmingham, everything and i want i guess i want i want us all to keep that in mind. Like thats the sort of integrated future we should be striving toward. Thank you, guys. The senior senator from ohio. Thank you. Brown presents an honor to join my colleagues of both parties on the floor tod