Outdoor set is harvard prefer Randall Kennedy. A frequent guest on booktv and an cspan and his most recent book which came out last year, which he is talking about down here in miami for discrimination race affirmative action and the law. Has affirmative action been successful in this country. Verse successful. Helped with the desegregation of American Life, particularly in Higher Education and employment and i think that it has done a very good job in a variety of ways. It has helped to rectify past injustice. It has helped to bring into important discussions people who had here to for been excluded and, therefore, enriched our public debate and our learning in various schools. So i think it has been a success. That certainly is what i argue in my book. Host where did you come um with the title . Guest the last thing that was part of this project. I did not have a working title. Book had to be published and i needed a title. The man who came up with the title is my editor. I had come up with a couple of titles. They were pretty flat. He said what about for discrimination. Initially i didnt like it. Usually its a bad word, but it grew on me and i have come to like it. Host there is a stigma attached to affirmative action . Guest yes. Affirmative action has costs and one cost is the idea that its beneficiaries are people even irtheyre not beneficiaries, if theyre thought to be byriz i think many people think that, well so and so is a beneficiary of affirmative action. They probably are a little less good than people who did not have affirmative action because affirmative action means giving people a helping hand a boost, so if you needed a helping hand needed a boost, that suggests that maybe youre not good as others. Host Randall Kennedy harvard law is ore guest. If you want to call in and talk with him about the issue wes have started talking about, 202 is the area coat, 585390. For those out west, dial in and well get to your calls as quickly as possible. Professor kennedy, are you a recipient of affirmative action . Guest yes. I am affirmative action baby. I was helped by affirmative action in terms of my education im one doesnt know for sure, but i feel virtually certain that affirmative action helped enable me to go to yale law school. I think that affirmative action likely helped me to secure a job at harvard law school. I was a very fine student. Very hard working. I think that my record speaks for itself and that ive been able to be a real contributor to legal academia. But what i have been helped like so many other africanamericans over the past 30 years in elite institutions . Have i been helped by ayre affirmative action yes . Host when did affirmative action begin in this country. Guest well, it all depends on how you define affirmative action. For instance i mean, theres a way of saying that affirmative action has been part of American Life since the civil war. The first civil federal civil rights statute Civil Rights Act of 1866 was vetoed by the president of the United States, Andrew Johnson the successor to lincoln lip, abraham lincoln, he said it would give, quote, discriminating protection to africanamericans. He thought it was giving an illicit, up, unjust helping hand to africanamericans because it allowed them to become citizens immediately. He thought was was a sort of illicit reverse discrimination, several laws said that all people had to have the same rights to enter into contracts and own property on the same basis as white people. He viewed that as a type of, quote, affirmative action. Now, people nowdays dont view that as affirm tv action. They view that as just antidiscrimination law. The affirmative action were used to, that it talk about in my book, mainly came about in the late 1960s and the early 1970s, and the reason it came about is because of a widespread feeling that antidiscrimination laws alone would not be enough to quickly desegregate American Life. Host what about court cases . Guest there have been many court cases and there will be many more. Just this past week, an antiaffirmative Action Organization filed a court case against my university, Harvard University asserting Harvard University was discriminating against asianamericans in particular. So a court case filed against the university of North Carolina claiming their asia americans and whites were doing discriminated against. So affirmative action has been controversial since the late 1960 and row mains. Host be bachy case. Guest the first time that the Supreme Court of the United States grappled with affirmative action early 70s. Guest it was 1975 or 1976 as i recall. And what happened in the balky case was that it was a classic compromise. It was a case that involved affirmative Action University of california at davis medical school. This medical school set aside a certain number of places i think it was 16 places for disadvantaged minority racial minorities, and what the Supreme Court said it was up constitutional for a Public Institution of Higher Education to set aside a certain number of places. They said that is too quota like so they struck this down but the Supreme Court also said that universities could take race into account along with other things in determining who they were going to admit to their to these educational institutions. That was a very interesting case because it really came down to just one justice. It was a split 44 case, and one justice, louis powell was the swing justice who said you cannot have quotas but you can have you can take race into account as one of many factors. And by the way thats the law of balky is still the ring reigning law of the Supreme Court. Host do we have aniyed what happened to allen balky . Guest yes. We went to medical school and has become a doctor, and from what i can tell has led a gainful, productive life. Host how frank can you be in discussions about race in the law with your students at harvard . Guest im very frank. And in all of my book, i have attempted to be frank. I take my position. I take my position. I argue my position strongly. I am pro affirmative action, for instance. But in my book i also talk about the costs. In fact some of my friends are get a little miffed with me because they think maybe i give away too much. Maybe the think i talk about the cost too much. But i think people are smart. I dont think its useful to try to hide the ball. I take a position. I believe that information is my friend. I want people to have information. I want people to have all the arguments. I think if people have all the arguments, they will armed with all the arguments embrace my position. So, im like that in class. Im like that when i write. And so im very frank. Host Randall Kennedy, you came out with a book the nword. What was the reaction to that . You spelled out the nword. Guest the name of the book was nigger the strange career of a troublesome word. A book that sold more copies than all of my other books combined. I got a lot of criticism from the book. Host from africanamericans from whites liberals conservatives. Guest all sorts liberals, conservatives, blacks asia americans. But there were a lot of people who liked the book but it did get a lot of criticism. A number of people who did not like the title, for instance. They didnt like the fact i spelled out the word, and they didnt like the positions i took but there again, i said what i believed and i put all the arguments out there. A person who heres one thing i do when i write my books. I want to arm a person who disagrees with me i want a person who disagrees with me to read my book and see all of his already ore arguments there. Nobody can read a book of mine and say well, kennedy didnt bring up this argument against his position. I bring up all the arguments. Host Washington Post recently dade series on the nword. Guest i saw that. Host has it been destigmatized in a sense . Maybe thats not the right word. Guest that a big argument. There are some people who say that one way of dealing with this word is to not make a big deal of it. If you dont make a big deal, if people just use it let it roll off your back it will use the status and it will lose its attraction and ability to hurt. Now, america is so large that i think it is taboo in certain circles. You never get any serious politician using this word under any circumstances. If you had a politician on our show right now they would not repeat the name of my book. They would not even repeat it. They would not say, quote, this guy wrote this book called they would not repeat because it is serious politics. For you to say that words to discredit yourself. If we go to other realms. If were talking about rap obviously, talking about comedy talking about Popular Culture people use the word. So its a word that is complicated. You can use it in some forms, but even in those forums you take a risk. I think that is at it should be, frankly. The nword is a word that has been used and its still used to hurt people. I think whenever you use that word you should be using it advisedly. You should be the a sense you should be using this word in full recognition that a lot of people find it hurtful. Host Randall Kennedy, harvard law is our guest. Bonnie in rock island illinois, you are the first caller. Youre on booktv. Caller thank you for taking my call. I do want to make the comment, discrimination not only includes race and religion but also life experiences. Theres a great need for educators who are retired to get to dedicate themselves to volunteer to educate those incarcerated with the basics of reading and math. Those who have been incarcerated are, even after release, discriminated for the rest of their lives and i wanted to ask mr. Kennedy what his thoughts were on that. And ill take my answer off the call. Host thank you maam. Guest i think you make an excellent point. The fact of the matter is that the United States of america incarcerated a larger percentage of its population than any advanced industrial democracy. That is a shame. It is a disgrace. It is really an open scandal, and we need to do something about that. I would totally embrace your comment that we need to do as much as we can first of all to change our policies so we dont incarcerate so many people, and secondly for those people who have been incarcerated, we do overstigmatize them and hurt their ability to come out of prison and get on with a gainful productive life. So i wholeheartedly embrace the sentiments of the caller. Host joe in florida. Hi joe. Caller good morning. I have a question for professor kennedy. Some of us look towards affirmative action as to blacks Enter University circuit. I happen to be one who graduated from a Major University white Major University in the state of ohio. This was before affirmative action. And far too many times theres nothing said about those of us who were participants in the collegiate atmosphere, and the collegiate academia that existed before affirmative action. What is his position on some of us . Host jo, very quickly, before the professor answers, tell us your experience. What year did you graduate where did you go to school. Guest graduated in 1959 from kent state university. And the makeup of the school at that time, i guess there was probably around 7,000 students, of which there was no more than a maximum at best 100 minority afro American Students from ohio and surrounding areas. States rather. But the experience was one of high a highly competitive environment that there was no assistance provided to us with respect to Holding Hands and what you might call a mentor, but we were there just to survive, of which we did. So i was wondering what his take would be on that kind of situation that prevailed before affirmative action and in a totally white environment. Host thank you sir. Professor. Guest so its a wonderful comment. Of course its true that africanamericans and other racial minorities attended predominantly white institutions before the onset of affirmative action. They did in much smaller numbers, however, thats caller indicated. Much smaller numbers. One thing that affirmative action did in the late 60s and early 7s so was to create larger cadres of racial minorities at these predominantly white institutions, and with the idea being in mind again, that the the desegregation of American Life was something that was proceeding too slowly under the old rules, the old regime. As for the circumstances of racial minorities before the advent of affirmative action i agree. Black history does need to be more known. I think that there are good aspects and bad aspects to it there are plenty of instances plenty of stories of africanamericans and other racial minorities at predominantly white institutions who did not have the benefit of affirmative action and created wonderful careers for themes and what they were able to achieve needs to be saluted. I think that one can say that and also say at the same time, hough, that what has occurred over the past several decades has been good. Larger numbers of racial minorities at these institutions has been good not on form themselves but the country as a whole. Host othe n forked. Per sis continues of the color line and sellout, names of other books. Heres the cover of for discrimination race affirmative action and the law. Tana, san diego, youre on with professor Randall Kennedy. Caller good morning, dr. Kennedy, its an honor to speak to you, sir. I was wondering, whoa die doo you think the press in general has ignored the fact that the main beneficiary of affirmative action has been white women . I tend to have to expose that to my friends at work because they assume that the only people who are benefiting are socalled minority people. And its always a very interesting experience when they realize that they are the main beneficiaries of affirmative action. Host tawnya, do you favor affirmative action laws . Actually die, but i just wish that people were more educated on the fact that a lot of people who are getting the benefits of it do not say theyre getting the benefits of it and many of them dont know that because in my job environment i would say that probably seven of the 40 people definitely were helped because they were white women, because theyre not even as qualified as some of the black men who tried to get the same job. Host thank you, maam. Guest i think that the caller makes an excellent point. The fact of the matter is that in American Life there are many groups who get all sorts of benefits sometimes informally sometimes formally clearly women. What about all the people who get benefits abuse their parents happen to go to a particular university . Legacies. What about the benefit that athletes get . As far as im concerned, there are probably good reasons for aiding all of these various groups. It shouldnt be nobody should be under the delusion that its only racial minorities that get various benefits. People farmers get benefits. People in various regions get benefits. What about the fact that at Public Institutions theyre a tremendous benefit given to instate students as opposed to out of state students. Thats a preference. So long as preferences have a good sensible basis, as far as im concerned they should be allowed. After all, racial affirmative action is no except as a recommend remedy affirmative action is something that politicians permit racial affirmative action is permissive. Its not required. And so if people permit it and its usually the majority that is permitting nittany event, it seems to me it should be allowed. If the majority of people in particular states dont want to have it, for instance the people of california got rid of racial affirmative action but people in michigan got rid of racial affirmative action. If they want to get rid of it they can it about if people in a jurisdiction wants to have it. Be able to have it, and theres good reason to have it, as i argue good my book. Host diego in delta, colorado. Hi diego. Diego, we have to let that go i apologize. That connection is not working. So well move on to lynn in parksburg, pennsylvania. Hello dr. Kennedy. As one involved with discrimination and education, are you aware of anyone looking into the fact that all Higher Education, from what i experienced, Higher Education, when you are accepted as a student, it is not a contractual agreement. You can complete all requirements for a degree the entire syllabus with a 4. 0 average, have paid all your tuition, perhaps through government grants and they can choose whether they feel like giving you your diploma or not. You may not get your diploma. You have no legal recourse. It was not a contractual agreement. So that students have no antidiscrimination protection for graduation and getting a diploma. Therefore, they cant whoa do you ask that question . Caller it happened to me. And, therefore, i could not go out, get a job in my field, and pay back my government loan so that all these pop up i went to a very Prominent University in philadelphia for a masters to become a teacher for a second career. And old white women are not favored. Host all right. Thank you, maam. Guest maam, im sorry to hear about your unfortunate situation. I must say though, that i dont think that youre correct in saying that a student who goes to an institution is without recourse if that institution arbitrariry withholds a diploma. In fact i think that any student who goes to a public or private institution, in fact does have a contractual relationship with the institution, and if this institution acts arbitrarily, i think they are in breach of contract and are also proba