have time at the end for a q&a session please line up at the microphone to the right so with that i will handed over to the interviewer the managing editor for "the chicago tribune". >> welcome to ruth printer's row lit fest. i am pleased to be sitting here with lisa napoli with a fellow journalist who is the offer of "ray and joan" the man who made the mcdonald's fortune and the woman who you gave the ball away. we were working on a cover line for a magazine people don't put appreciate how long it can go. >> reading "the new york post" that this was different and i got lucky. >> it is a book about the man who made mcdonald's what it is and then the head spinning philanthropy of his wife joan kroc so liz taylor who was the chicago tribune editor-at-large in said a business editor should do the interview and then said it is more like a love story . i think it is a little more complex than that. >> is. it is a love story and a hate story and about mid 20th century americana and that is what kept me going it took five years to research because it does plan to gather all of those things and makes us look at how but we take for granted in our society today with the characters and the people behind it girl i've loved it as a researcher because it would pull together so many things as a former technology and business supporter what he sold was high-tech 100 years ago and of course, it also made me come to chicago lot. and what a pleasure that was even in the winter. >> so you were a tech reporter writing for "the new york times" so how did you stumble onto this?. >> refer started people said you don't seem like the typical mcdonald's customer. why do you care? it doesn't turn out that it is a mcdonald's but it was jones philanthropy more specifically for the public radio station in santa monica the california and i went to cover the fate of a giant sculpture of the late cartoonist conrad and they made this 26-foot tall mushroom cloud out of chain-link but the city was going to knock it down because it didn't have the money to restore that and i said who will build this in the first place? go to her and the activist said we can talk about it was anonymous but it was joan kroc so they would know that began she gave that massive gift when she died in 2003. so after sitting there talking with him to think she was a peace activist fund a sculpture nowhere near where she lived gave money to npr so what else? i started searching and i found obituaries but i could not find the biography so stupidly i appointed myself as the person push to do that i found very quickly why one never have been written some americans see how thick the book is. 260 pages of text and footnotes and a ledger of philanthropic giving is how many pages does that go on for?. >> of the web site think i have the whole thing i cannot recall but close at 20 pages it is strange like the rosetta stone entered her mind over the course of pro-life because it is desperate and strange and little bits of money in an enormous sums. sova footnotes a tip pride in those somebody asked if i had so many just to pad the book which is silly anybody that knows a biography knows that will fully they are fun to read. >> they are great when i saw the salvation army donation she gave close at $2 billion by the time it was all cash doubt that is a lot of money . >> so talk about the reporting process. so no one had done this story because it is very difficult. she gave to so many people. >> it was hard to so i started with mcdonald's and they would not help me they said there are two books already written one was written by a ray kroc for really his ghostwriter and i said that is the case but i need to find out more and they never helped me prepare the family of ray kroc and joan kroc, she was the third wife was left of the family was reluctant to work with me so it took was hard. so it was so much fun for the research process is to reverse in junior so first started to extract information and teams of people from the obituaries of other articles or all the archives and would hear the harold washington and library in san diego because they live their lives in san diego with the public library there in search of what was hard to find because it is modeled digitized. now you go into the internet but it doesn't look -- work that way even looking the early '80s so i would have to sift through newspaper after newspaper to find the names of people associated with them if they were still alive or paid visits to rapid city south dakota, all over the country because she was there as the early franchisee. sometimes you bring your head against the wall but loved it when somebody had an unusual name. but even if i found out they were deceased i knew that i have found them. like old datebooks so it was tough because there was not an archive so i joined an amazing group of biographers for guidance and a learned a lot going to their conferences there were a pulitzer prize winners there were experts in researching and mining information but i learned very quickly that those tracks don't necessarily work when people have not left behind information and neither one did so thankfully raise brother ran the foundation from the ranch and california but his job was a scientist the exact opposite and was a meticulous record keeper endued he was doing something important with a fortune in what it had made so there was a hardship assignment to keep myself and uc santa barbara sifting through all of that and looking for clues was laborious but also a joy a sorry for the long answer but people always want to know. >> it is fascinating. so first let's talk about re. there is a strong chicago connection before he moved to the city and also the of home of mcdonalds number one. was a truly the first mcdonald's?. >> it is not for a hate to disappoint chicago but the first really was san bernadine no actually riverside county and california. mcdonald's was started by two brothers after world war two who were looking to make a book like a hot dog business and movie theater business. and they started this food preparation of carhop restaurants doing? survey not? as of brothers. re what is he your -- year as a paper cup salesman than the multi spindled milkshake machine that derived from an early i.c.e. cream stand here. so from that office here in chicago peas started to sell the of milkshake machine and that is that he met the of brothers mcdonald in san bernardino and asked if he could franchise the system they had some early lock but they were not interested to go as big as ray wanted to because they knew how hard that would be. so what happened when he decided to franchise or was allowed, he built his first mcdonald's in des plaines that is why it is erroneously referred to as number one for the corporation did not knowledge for many years that the brothers existed and that there were 10 before the one here in des plaines was built. >> that is interesting. that is the way he did business? and eventually the mcdonald brothers were no longer involved. >> yes. he met then in the mid-50s to store franchising than 1961 he bought them out 2.$7 million. the system was in a difficult place mcdonald's could have very easily tanked they had to keep raising money and had to buy out the brothers but they were trying to have a long distance business relationship that they would carry around us dictaphone machines sending tapes back and forth because they did not want to talk realtime on the phone because they were so angry so he said what would you like to go away? and they said 2.$7 million of the same year he divorced his first wife the brothers got a big check and rode off into the sunset. and did not get eight free until years later when one of the brothers who passed away after ray kroc died in 1984 and mcdonald's was advertising like crazy the of founder is deceased and dick mcdonald said we are the founder not him. then that is where the whole drama between the mcdonald's feebly in the restaurants and then were made right by the acknowledgement -- acknowledgments. . . >> it happened to turn into -- in the world. it's interesting that you bring up the founder. so much of what you just relate was on the silver screen in the past year in a movie called the founder starring michael keaton. your book was not involved in that movie at all? >> no. >> but much of the same topics are in there. how much was in there that they do not get right? >> of many things that they took poetic license with. what's interesting is that it was hard to sell a book just about job. what we learned about the movie being made, by putting ray in the title and by acknowledging with a fast food fortune came from in a deeper way than i had initially hoped to that sold the book. so it's interesting that many more attractive to tell. i think it is a better book to have told the story of where the fortune that ultimately john giveaway came from. but it's interesting that joan alone even though she's one of the greatest 20th century philanthropist wasn't enough of a draw. she is as or more of a compelling figure than ray. >> maybe that will be your movie. >> ) and the actresses out the there, her story is dynamite. she's a strong interesting woman who came from nothing. to your point in the founder and the people associated with the movie have been angry for saying this but the founder gets to make things wrong and i have a list of my website, rancho.com. the number one thing is the brothers i've not been able to establish the movie's assertion that the brothers were cheated out of a continued royalty from ray. they took their money and went off, they're happy to have their money. they did not like ray, a lot of people did not like ray. but that's not something i've been able to substantiate. and i worked very hard to make sure that what i'm writing in the book is correct. the other thing is how joan is depicted. she is depicted as the second wife when she is the third. she's depicted as a wife of a very successful restaurant tour. she was pretty much a main financial support for her first husband, rollie by plan and a elegant restaurant piano. she had several other jobs as well. her husband, rollie was hired by a franchisee to manage an early franchise in st. louis park, minnesota that joan was behind the scenes on. so you don't get a sense of how hard joan and her first husband really worked and also they say that joan is the plot twist that convinces ray to use the milkshake mix and that's not true. >> it's interesting, it's minutia but it's factual minutia that's important historically especially turns out i still hear from people who are mcdonald's historians. if that information that's keen critical. joan really was so important behind the scenes in the early days of mcdonald's. she wasn't just a trophy wife, she was working the french fryer with her husband who became an early franchisee. in the movie, she is not pretrade as much in the movie but there is the theme on the piano weather singing pennies from heaven, that's the night they met. >> ray rices and its autobiography grinding it out from 1977 and other people cooperate that, ray was shopping around for franchisees around the midwest and he went to st. paul to the criterion restaurant owned by a very successful entrepreneur in the area. he walked in and there was joan plan oregon. were not clear that she played pennies from heaven, she was not a singers, never was apparently but ray walked in and was taken by what he said was her blonde beauty and hurt musical prowess because he too was a musician. joan played music early on television back when there wasn't tape and television. but ray who is 26 years older played live on the radio in oak park where he was from where he was raised at the oak park arms hotel where there is a live orchestra every night. people at dance. that was radio back in the early days. he had this kinship with her that carry throughout the life with music. i love that united them. >> he was married to fl, his first wife and clearly smitten with joan. but he got divorced from ethel and then he and joan were not immediately together after that. >> joan wasn't ready to marry him. there was an aborted attempt at marriage. they finally did mary in 1969. conveniently ray married a woman named jane in the meantime because he cannot handle being a bachelor. when mcdonald's went public and 65 he bought this ranch and he called it the j&r double arch mcdonald's ranch. when he jettisoned jane to the side of the j&r double our ranch worked when he married joan. >> one of the crazy stories of their men in this book was when he left his second wife and he didn't even tell her, so please set the scene for where they were headed, they were jet setting and having a good time before the. >> when mcdonald's on public and 65 ray had been scraping along and doing well at different points in his career. but all the sudden he was one of the richest men in the country. he was also older and so he and his second wife chain had this ranch and were running all over the country, the world cruises and enjoying themselves. they were about to go off on their for fifth anniversary on a cruiser on the world when ray had his lawyer delivered the bad news to jane at a bon voyage party. all of these guys and their wives to my mcdonald's executives had come to see them off on their cruise and their lawyer went to jane and said, very sorry but ray is leaving you. here's what were going to give you and i hope that's okay and if not it's too bad. that's the deal. so apparently she burst into tears. that is how she learned that the marriage was over. ray ran off with joan to vegas which is where people went in those days for quickie divorces. they got there quickie divorces and got married not long after. >> that is a heckuva breakup. >> says a lot about who ray was. he was very good at assigning the delivery of bad news. that's something joan learn to do two. what's the good of having people if they can't tell your bad news for you. >> i want to talk more about the connection to chicago. you wrote it article for curve and i wanted to have you highlight a few of the significant landmarks. so 515 east fairview and arlington heights. >> that's where he enough will have their first home when they were first able to buy home after his years of toiling. >> ray had his office first for cattle sales and then for what he took over as the mcdonald's corporation. they kept getting more and more office space in their. >> the whitehall hotel? >> that's where ray went when joan kicked him out of the house once and in between marriages. it's a place he hang out and drink, drink, and drink. >> he did that quite a bit. >> really times. yes. >> toe 42 north lake shore? >> that was another air in the movie by the way. the 1242 north lake shore? >> that's where ray and joan lived when they first got married. they bought the duplex apartment in the beautiful building and had it retrofitted with an organ and piano and other opulent things. they had tremendous parties there. >> and this is a doozy, the ray crockett community center. >> joan had left $2 billion to the salvation army posthumously. before she died she built a crack community center in san diego in a poor neighborhood. the story behind why i won't tell you now, she built a beautiful 80 million-dollar recreation center. in her will she left the bequest to the salvation army to replicate the center in as many places across the country as they could. fittingly what is on the south side of chicago. if you've not been you have to see it. they are all spectacular state-of-the-art facilities, low cost to low-income people in the neighborhood. their transformative as recreation and community centers. it's quite a legacy she left. it is the only gift she left posthumously that had race in a minute. >> that is interesting. ray was a baseball fan as well. a big cubs fan. at one point as the businessman made do -- out of that workout? >> it didn't. he heard a news story, both ray and joan were big news junkies before recall people that. there is the deal with the san diego padres and they were lousy team. but he heard they were available so he had his people call. he plunked down $10 million and that change the course of both their lives. now there center of gravity was in san diego since he on the team. suddenly it was a rich man's plaything. he was angry that the team is bad but he was just happy to be a baseball. >> the first time they played a home game ray was sitting proudly in the owner's box drinking his early times and getting more incensed as how terrible the game is going. at a certain point he went to the announcer booth and asked if he gets a few words to the people in it was a sellout crowd. ray was a hero for buying this team. he announced, i have never seen such lousy ball playing in my life. and of course imagine that in the age of twitter. it took a while for that comment to reverberate. at the exact moment he was speaking in the streaker if you remember and so it was a crazy night and it set the stage for who ray was. anyone who knew for a new he is quite bombastic before that. that was his big welcome to san diego. is welcome to major-league baseball and some people loved it but a lot of people were not happy including many of the players, even if they agreed it was lousy ball playing. >> fisher. as you mention ray was bombastic. he was a bit of a drinker. and that took a toll on their marriage. seem like he was pursuing her through all this time and they're finally together. it seem like a love story but it was not quite so rosy. >> it's interesting, i think anytime i hit a wall in my research i always unpack to the revelation that i found thanks to the archives at the cook county archives which was the divorce papers every nfl. attached them were some papers of a divorce that joan had filed against ray herself two years after they finally got married. what happened was that joan was so troubled by raise alcoholism. ray was wakulla functional alcoholic. he could drink all night long and be up two hours later delivering a speech to mcdonald's convention and no one would know what i'm told nobody would know. so back before we had language where he talked about addiction and alcoholism especially in plate society, it's a disease, joan was so fed up and had tried to get ray help. this is where i learned why mcdonald's is not eager to help me. joan decided that she was going to convene all of the people in the early addiction treatment movement in the 70s. it was just starting in. alcoholics anonymous existed that there is not this huge industry of addiction treatment as we have today. so joan convened these folks at her expense at the ranch for a meeting of the minds about the topic. they came up with an action plan for things they could do to get the word out for the general public of alcoholism is a disease and how it impacted the family. joan had a high school education, was not as -- had a high school education. she didn't have the framework herself but she had the wisdom together these folks. from there she took some arrays money that was earmarked for p and told her brother-in-law she was starting the operation work by joan commission films and books and literature all on the topic of alcohol and the impact on the family at a time i people did not have that conversation. that was really what made me fall in love with her. that she persevered in the marriage. she could've left it, divorced it and taken out a lot of money. instead she stayed and they said she may have stayed because she would ultimately inherit his money. be that as it may, she did a lot of good with the money. the very first major act she had in creating the organization. there's nothing wrong with people who write checks and but she is very active in hands-on a particularly in this. she was coming out in the press is a very wealthy man committed to this cause. people are interviewing and wanted to know why you so interested in the subject? if you not personally attached to it but she protected ray until he was gone. but she was gone for this incredibly important work. >> that work is when she started to come into her own, right? she had been the beautiful wife in public, not involved in the business. he had tried to get some pet projects so i think she got a taste of it through that work and that she was off to the races. >> right, she saw the power. she was daunted i'm told by people in her family. she was started by how much money there was especially when he died. she persevered and recognized the responsibility she had with the money. that's right gates and buffett are tremendous people, they're in this 50% league who pledged to give half of their life's worth away. but before any of that happened joan she proceeded to fall in love with being philanthropic. the power that we all feel well we see someone with less than we have, she did in a big way and an incredible way. >> , she did she give away altogether? >> just to get a sense that she for years were able to underwrite a free dental clinic in san diego. she funded the whole place on there were so many things that we probably still don't know and hard to monetize inhabited nomination on. at the end of our life she had about $3 billion after a lifetime of giving. she gave away 99% of it. >> that's incredible. >> into so many different causes. so time and again throughout the book she had some causes she was passionate about men sometime she would just meet some of sometimes she would need someone who you not think would be the recipient of a donation. >> if she liked you entrusted you and you are doing something cool that she thought needed funding, ray and her father both had hospice care early on in the contemporary hospice movement. no, it's another wonderful thing we take for granted in our culture. joan met a woman who was committed to building a freestanding hospice in san diego. joan was impressed that this woman was her age and a dr., that was not typical of women of her generation. joan wrote her a check and made it happen. she was really committed to releasing this freehand standing hospice bill. time and again their instances of that philanthropy. the market isolated things. in addition to being alcoholism education advocate she became a piece advocate. she would go voraciously consume any speeches or lectures about the subject. in the case of father hesburgh of notre dame, she saw him speak and went up to him afterwards. he talked about wanting to build the peace institute on campus and she said here's my card i would like to help you and he politely said, who are you? she was not a well-known person at that point. next thing you know she's visiting the campus and giving him a lot of money to build and ultimately sustain what still exist today is a peace institute at notre dame. i think that's what resonated for me about her. i wish i could just come up to you and say you doing something really cool, what i need to do to make it happen. let's talk off-line. maybe there's and kind stuff. >> it's just such a dream to be able to do that. what a cool thing. >> it's amazing. so i love the story about when she decided she wanted to focus on philanthropy and she was still baseball so she goes to sell the team and find some to offer them $50 million but doesn't like the business tactics i'm going to give it away. >> she's like baseball belongs to the people. even though in the beginning she said why would you want to buy a monastery when ray said he bought the padres she went to not knowing what a baseball game was like and doing her crocheting to falling in love with it. the chapter about 1984, i will give it all away here, but it's it in incredible year for her. in the padres did well that your. she saw the power baseball and how compassionate people were work. with ray she learned to. she wanted to give that team to the people of san diego. it was all set up to be done in a way that was responsible and sustainable. in the major-league baseball scuttled the deal. it would've meant that all the information of the ownership would've been public and they don't want that scenario. it's a shame because same thing with the ranch. when she was done with the ranch she wanted to give it away to the ronald mcdonald house and the community would not let her. you win some you elusive. >> we haven't even talked about the ronald mcdonald house. that's a big part of their legacy as well. how did that could start? >> it did not start because of mcdonald's, ray, or joan. they are contributed at some point but it started because of franchisee who had someone come to him and say they needed to raise money to help people who cannot stand the hotel if their child was desperately ill. so is in philadelphia or pittsburgh, it started not through mcdonald's corporate. when ray turned 75 what to buy a multimillionaire, close to billionaire close to the 75th birthday. everybody a man or circle will become rich because of the shift about it to start a seat for the other mcdonald's franchisees can start their own versions of ronald mcdonald and then joan gave him quite a lot of money over the course of their lifetime. not all of their money that they did give the whole mcgill or two. in the charity itself is controversial. it's a spectacular charity and anybody who benefits says so. you can see the work they do. of course there people who take issue with the fact that there's a charitable organization who has a corporate mascot in the name. >> so it's a fallacy that mcdonald's or they started it. >> whether it's a big one are small on. >> she gave a lot of money to the opera in san diego even the she hated the opera. in fact they were trying to get her to go. they're both musicians and music carried them their lives and they would have great parties. but opera was not her thing. until that one point she went to the opera in which the ladies room immediately after the opera started and set all give these people another million dollars if i can just get out of here and have dinner. but she got why it was so important. >> should we take some questions from the audience? >> you can just pop up here and ask questions that you might have. >> can we shout out rapid city south dakota. there so many wonderful people on rapid city. there's a throwaway line behind the arches by john love, prominent business writer in chicago and it was written with the help of mcdonald's joan with a franchisee in rapid city and i thought that's big. there's nothing written about it. i started going to rapid city which was great in finding people of certain age to the historical society. this wonderful woman jean, who help me figure out where the people were who knew them. one point john was going to give them in rapid city her collection of western art from the ranch that she sold. rapid city couldn't get it together to build a museum fast associate the art away from that. i say that because she wasn't pollyanna. she is quirky. i love that about her. >> where did ray at the 2.6 or 2.7 million to buyout? >> that's especially since mcdonald's is on the slide to oblivion. the brothers came up with this fabulous choreography of moving through quickly to the counter and great french fries back when they make them by hand. and raven said this who they made the formula that made mcdonald's successful and that was real estate not food. harry came and who work for tasty freeze and said why you got is not about hamburgers, it's about owning that real estate. the problem is they do have the money to buy it. so harry went around the country negotiating loans and buying properties from local banks with local banks from local owners of properties. when the brother said they wanted $2.7 million, million each and 700 grand to pay the taxes, ray said we will pay overtime. when they said were not going to pay overtime, we want the dough now. if you get a pass over time will keep collected a royalty. we don't want that. and they were getting .9% of the royalty. so ray was in a panic because to make them more attractive to bankers they needed to get the brothers in the deal with the brothers out of the equation. harry went out and almost can get the money. it was a lot of money and they were leverage to the hill. this incredible scenes about harry dancing as fast as he could in front of people they call the 12 apostles who actually took the money and took the chance which was enormous that this wasn't a bad idea. you have to remember we take it for granted, it wasn't seen as a great idea. there people with 15 set hamburger stands all over the country. mostly mom and pops but some small regional chains. now we know. in the early days of mcdonald's people didn't know. but harry knew that the key to success was the real estate. it was he who is a polish businessman, he spoke the language of finance and push them to go public because that's the only way they're going to make money themselves. he's the one who raise the money. it was in the 11th hour. if he hadn't gotten it the brothers who kept on along the way. it's too bad there's not more written about harry. i found out as much as i possibly could because he was a genius. even though ray kicked him out later, bottom out kicked him out of the business, ray had a meta- 75th birthday party and publicly thanked him for everything that he did and acknowledge that if he had not come up with a formula it would had never gone as far as it had. >> that's why the movie is an act grid. the buyout terminated the royalty agreement, the same wi-fi but your house and wanted to borrow the bathroom you would have to let me in afterwards. they bought him out fair and square. and that was the end of their business relationship. rated something super nasty on top of it but also part of the equation was that he said the brothers could not keep operating their original restaurant because he bought out the trademark. he bought out mcdonald's. he wanted that original restaurant. ray got that mcdonald's and the the brothers had to set up shop elsewhere. the other way around. but ray push them out ultimately of business. but they sold out. it's hard for us to fathom and it's not as sexy as saying the brothers got screwed but they didn't. >> what was the royalty who would have netted them in their family? >> neither had children at the time. dick mary later in life, woman had a son who grandsons. people had calculated that. i've never looked at it. it's like saying if i had stayed at the new york times how much of my stocks be worth. i've never looked at it. basically the brothers knew they wanted out from ray and ray knew he wanted out from the brothers. was just typical breakup. ray said what is it going to take to make you walkway in the brothers got back right away and said name their price, their own budgeting on the price. they said if you can come up with the money i'll stick around. but ran harry knew if they had this early contract from the very beginning they had to continue it was -- and it was they didn't want that agreement. they can have that agreement if they were going to keep going out in keep borrowing money. i go into more detail in the book. >> carey got a good chunk of the company for those ideas he brought to the table. >> in the early days ray was generous with that stock. he said it was not worth anything. the chicago transit authority token was with more money. he gave harry 20% of the stock. he gave his longtime secretary, she could be a book two, he gave her 10% of the stock. the company went public they had given away more stock to these banks. but they still make quite a lot of money. >> in your work to talk much about ray relationship with former president nixon because nixon was a great admirer? >> i do write about in the book. unfortunately it was not as detailed a relationship as i thought it hoped it would be. it turns out that ray, president nixon was supportive of ray is one of the most famous businessman in the country at the time and one of the wealthiest. in a tories. mcdonald's was coming under fire for environmental one somewhat more packaged. but ray famously gave a $250,000 gift to the president which branded him as a pot republican supporter. he was a republican and not conservative but not an active politician like the koch brothers. so i do talk about that in the book. interestingly, joan was on the complete other end of the spectrum. in fact was a big supporter of walter mondale when he ran for office. and late ray called her a pass he. he felt that she was too left-wing and that she was smart enough to keep it to yourself while he was alive. the minute he died she let it hang out. that's when she became a major peace activists. i read about norman cousins were right about this review editor is ray was a bleeding heart. they just despise the concept of norman cousins. this antithesis of array crack. a hard-driving businessman. that's the other thing i find fascinating is that they were very similar in some ways but so different in others and in politics not the lease. >> thank you think will wrap up that there's no other questions. so it's a great there more stories for these came from. copies are available outside. lisa will be available to sign books. thank you and i hope you've had a great day it will come back tomorrow and see us. [applause] >> thank you once again for everyone for attending. the books are being sold and will be signed outside the auditorium. [inaudible] >> here's a look at authors recently featured on book tvs afterwards. our weekly author interview program, rachel snyder and jonathan reported on how low moderate income families manage money. utah senator, mike lee recalled the forgotten men and women who fought it trip out against -- and then anne-marie slaughter examined how technology is impacting foreign affairs. in the coming weeks on afterwards, motherboard brian merchant will retrace the creation and develop an of the iphone. syndicated columnist emma climb over her thoughts the trump presidency and what it means for the future of american politics. on afterwards, temple university professor, heath davis will look at gender identity. >> i was inspired to write this book by the strange policy that we had in philadelphia which is our public transportation authority. we still require that everybody who had a monthly pass had to have a gender marker. either for mail or f. this created what i call sex identity discrimination. and in particular one transgender woman, charlene is a friend of mine and activists for trans rates in philadelphia. they brought a lawsuit against the company. when she offered her past she was turned away. the individual bus driver said he can't use this because in my opinion you're not a woman, not a real woman. then she brought back a pass with an m sticker on it and the same thing happened. you're not a real man. secant is the past. this got me thinking, in that case it's pretty clear that there is no legitimate reason to have our sex identity marked, past to get on the bus. in the city of philadelphia the sparked grass roots activism to get the sex stickers removed from the best passes. eventually the city get rid of them but it never admitted it had discriminated against charlene or anyone else on gender identity. it really got me thinking, if this is ridiculous in this instance, the what about other sex marked ids that we carry around like our drivers license, passport, birth certificate, are they necessary? >> afterwards airs on book tv every saturday at 10:00 p.m. and it 9:00 p.m. eastern. watch other programs on our website, book to be.org. >> mm being a washingtonian, met being from of family commitment be a jewish commitment the children of my incredibly interesting engaging parents, it meant that we all have these identities that are formed by what we grow up with. then there's the identities that you don't realize you have inherited. that's what the story did for me. i did not understand for most of my life that when i met somebody they might come to the meeting of me with a set of assumptions or ideas and understandings about this past that i did not know about. >> i never watched it until decided to work on this book. in some ways it was a very strange gift for the work because coming to it with no background in a way, coming to a completely clean meant that i could mind my memories in a way. and then layer in this information i was learning. it wasn't like one of the things i often set about this work is that i didn't come to this book with a story to tell. i didn't come to saying i have the story i need to impart on you. i came to the work with questions and with suspicions and with ideas. in the book is the inquiry. the book is the attempt to put together these pieces. one of the things that's the most important thing about the work is that i realize when i began reading about the film with it in mind that i might want to write something about it, after my father died i realize that no one really talked about it as a whole movie. it's interesting that you brought that up. people talk about it as evidence in an artifact being worth a lot of money. people talk about it as a cultural touchstone. people look at it through a lens at which you can look at the for our family and for my grandfather the whole movie quality of fact that he's been making home movies for 35 years at that point and that he was his camera and his point of view in his responsibility shaped everything that follow. not knowing then and not putting the whole movie back at the center of the story, just that there are so many distortions in the way the story was told the other public records. >> you can watch this and other programs online epoch to be.org. [inaudible] >> ladies and gentlemen. please welcome condoleezza rice. [applause] [applause] [applause]

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