it appear that's trump did chase that, either to pay off money that his business has owed or decorate the hallways. this is the late nest the series of stories that you have been working on. you sent him some questions, so far no answers from the campaign. what are some of the questions? >> well, the biggest question is whether trump has given any of his own money since 2008. that's the last time that we and see that he gave any money and no money to them and, not much money to anybody else. he claims that he has given millions away and, i have spent months, looking for it. and i found almost none. how much time has trump spent on his foundation? >> that's a good question. every year, in his irs filings, he has to tell them. so for, nine years he told the i.r. snchts zero hours per week. in the last filing, in, 2014, one half-hour per week. >> so, let me put two examples on the table, the case of greenberg, he was a player, and that charity golf tournament add million prize and, on the 13th hole, he hits a hole in one and everybody goes crazy and he goes to the club house to celebrate. and, while easel operating they say, hey, you won nothing. because, the rules of the hole in one contest, say that the ball has to travel 150 yards from the tee to the hole. less than 150. it turned out that they had set up the golf course that it was always going to be too short. so when he made it, it was too short. he won nothing. he sued. and there's a legal settle mettle in which they agree that they're going to pay some money to charity, as way of settling the law suit but what you can tell, is that, greenberg's fourn days received nothing, from the golf course, it was the party to the lawsuit. he got 158,000 from the foundation, so it appear that's charity paid a settlement that the golf course was supposed to pay. >> perhaps more significantly, front-page of the suppose pa check from the foundation, 100,000, to fisher house. but there's a story behind this check. >> right, so trump has club in palm beach, florida, in 2006, he puts a giant american flag, and it was a great stunt. but it was against the town rules. it was too high. so, after fighting with the town he ends up with 120,000 of unpaid fine total town. so, they go to court, a court settlement the agreement is, the town will waive it, but his club has to make a $100,000 to fisher house. so, what happens is, that the town does do it's part but trump's golf course pace nothing, instead, the foundation, pace 100,000, and instead, it's the club add obligation, and the charity paid off. >> you write, today, the portrait -- what is this all about? >> well, there's two portraits two. cases in which trump, bought large pictures of his own face and one for $20,000 and one for $10,000. he used foundation money. now that under the irs rules means, if the charity pays for them, they must be used for charitable things. but he had to use his own money. if that means that these portraits have to have some use. one painting is still missing the 6' tall i can't find. but one we did find, hanging on the wall of the back of trump's golf resort. so unless they run a soup kitchen, that is into the charitable use. >> we are a couple of days away from the first presidential debate a. lot of questions, about it, clinton foundation and now questions about the trump foundation. does one negate the other? >> they are very different. they're so different, in sort of the moral understanding of both. clinton's foundation is a big foundation. it is huge. employs more than 2,000 people and it does real charitable work. but the question for clinton is the moral responsibility of power. she had a lot of power, did she misuse it? >> the work that it does is true and real. in the case of the trump foundation it's a much smaller enterprise t. didn't do anything, it just passes money on. and the question for trump is about the moral responsibility of wealth. he is wealthy and made a big deal about how he is. he doesn't seem to feel any responsibility to give any wealth back, and he seems to do everything to have other people pay for it. >> he's made that reference. o.p. m. other people's money. >> so before this year, he promise they had $1 million and after a lot of media pressure he paid t. i can't find any evidence that he was using anything other than other people's money. >> the late nest a series of pieces by david, of the washington post, looking into the foundation. the story is available online. thank you for being us with. >> thank you. >> we'll look back at past presidential debates saturday's on y. span. this saturday it's the 1976 debate between ford ever ford, and, jimmy carter. >> we were faced with heavy inflation. over 12% and we were faced with spub stand she will unemployment in the last 24 months we have turned the economy around. we have 500,000 more americans out of jobs today, than were out of work three months ago. since mr. ford has been in office, we've had a 50% increase in unemployment. >> reagan and president jimmy carter. >> when i made my decision to stop all trade with iran as a result of the taking of the hostages, i announced then and have maintained, that if the hostages are released, safely, that we would make delivery on those items which iran owns. >> we had a accurate warning that there was a throat our embassy and we could have done it, either strengthen it or remove our personnel before the kidnap, took place. >> with 2000 presidential debate. george w. bush, and al gore. >> i'll balance the budget every year. i will pay down the national debt. i will put medicare and social cure security in a lock box. >> i want to take one half of the surplus and dedicate it to social security and one quarter, for important project seconds and one quarter, back to the people who pay the bills. watch past presidential debates. >> on the campaign trail, trump called the recent shooting, a terrible situation. he made the comment speaking to a group of religion gust leaders. this is about an hour. >> many. [applause] i am mike pence. [cheers] . >> i'm the governor of indiana. >> and it's my honor. [applause] [cheers] . >> i was deeply humbled for accept this man's invitation to run and serve as the next vice-president of the united states of america. [applause] >> we are grateful for the opportunity. the introduction i preferred was kind but the introduction is shorter. i'm a christian, a conservative and a republican in that order. [cheers] . >> i stand before you today, with the firm belief that should we be given this great opportunity, should this man be elected, in 47 days, i know that he believes and i believe, that the pulpit that's you stand at, have greater capacity to strengthen and uknight this nation than any pulpit that we will ever stand at. so, let me begin by thanking each one of you, for the ministries you have in this state and in this nation and the way you pour your lives and your faith into people all across this great state. [applause] >> i began as democrat. i was deeply inspired by john f. kennedy and reverend martin luther king junior. they still inspire me and doctor king's life, and his example and his sacrifice transformed the nation. but i'm one of the people that remembers that he was first-and-foremost a man of faith. he was a workman approved right immediate able to handle the word of truth, and with that word, he challenged the conscious of a nation, and drove us toward a more perfect union. that's been the role of faith throughout our history. [applause] >> as we go into this campaign i will tell you, we are deeply committed, as you will hear donald trump reflect today, to insuring that the voice of faith will speak again. he'll describe those policies in more detail. but a commitment to, as he has already described to a new civil rights agenda, a safer community, of economic opportunities and jobs. and, making it possible for parents to choose where their children go to school, whether they are public or private, regardless of their income or area code. school choice will be at the center of this administration. [applause] >> i have to know this goodman. i haven't known him nearly as long as pass tor scott has, i have seen in him a heart for the american people. an impatience for leaders, and policies that failed to open the doorway to the american dream for all of our people. i can assure you, this as man of faith. he has faith in the boundless potential of every american with a good education and a good start in life, for achieve their dreams. regardless of race, or creed or color or gender. [applause] >> he's always man raised, on a foundation of faith, in his life. it's something that would he shared early on. in these challenging times, i can assure you, that donald trump is a man who knows, that there will always be more in these united states than units us than will ever divide us. [applause] >> we have and ever shall be one nation, under god, indices visible, with liberty and justice for all. we know with heartbreaking headlines and divisions, what has been true is still true today. that if his people, who are called by his name, will humble themselves and pray, he will again hear from heaven and he will heal our land. [applause] >> so on that foundation, and with great humility to be able to stand by this man, let me yield the podium and my typical privilege to introduce my running-mate to a man who has known him for 25 years, one of the greatest promoters in the history of sports, has agreed to come here and promote his friend, would you join me in welcome mooring don king for this important and historic gathering. [applause] >> i'm home. ladies and gentlemen, let me say this to you, cleveland was the best location in the nation. [applause] >> it is my home. and the leadership now of the great mayor frank jackson. but let me say to you, as a friend and a fellow cleveland man to the nation, 44 years ago, i brought a young man to town to save on hospital. the hospital was north city hospital and it was the only hospital in town that would service black people. and, poor whites. and, his name was muhammad ali. today, i come to you, 44 years later, to bring you, a greater american, american, to save the nation, in donald j. trump. so, why woi under at that time tafnlg of the awesome responsibility, the distinct honor to present to you our next president of the united states, because he is fearless, he's courage gust and brave and bold enough to take on the system. yes. >> now, god good. >> everyday. >> and all things are possible with god. >> yes. >> they are not possible with men but with god paul things are possible. years ago, a man said that when i remember, iowa, and a man said that to get a black president it would be a miracle. his name was william jefferson clinton. and i wrote story, that said miracles happen in america. >> that's right. >> and we see, the word, iowa, signaled the first come of a black president. several months ago, in the campaign, this young man named donald trump he made a speech on the us is iowa, battleship in los angeles, and he said on that battleship, that's resonating with the people around the country, that he will create, we will create whole new system and we will take this system apart. now, he is the only man, in over hundreds of years, that has the consensus of public opinion, of rejection to the government. to the form of government. black-and-white alike, united in the consensus of public opinion that says, the system is corrupt. the system is rigged. the system is sexist, and racist. all right. so, now, we have heard lot of rhetoric and you hear it, it becomes like, great artist, po a violin that, we hear you're going to hear as you come to see, that they promise you everything and they give you nothing. and then they apologize for the unkept promises. but we ain't going for stovment we are going to keep fighting. it's business as usual. and enough is enough. we done had that. [applause] >> you know fred is looking. the spirit loud and clear, that, we will create a whole new system. we will take this system apart, and we will make america great again. all right. what does that mean? that means this, and this is what i want people to put themselves, and their country and their children before the party. john f. kennedy led party loyalty. this is a coming of a man, who has taken on a system, a system that is put together, a system of control, the mindset, the pat take tude, the institutions the law and then, they have the judges in the courts that makes right wrong and wrong right. he undertook that challenge and from his lips to god's eerts he says we will create whole new system. i understand this system. and, we will create whole new system. what has happened? the whole country, and the world is in shock. the first they were laughing, and he's as buffoon. he's a reality show. and, you know, promoter of himself. everyone was saying all these different things, when he entered the ring to defend america, the principles of freedom, and to be able to give the government back to the people. we the people. [applause] >> 14 million votes later. [cheers] . >> after beating 17 opponents. we let 16 go. so he's now the nominee. you have to understand something. the party doesn't want him. come on. system doesn't want him. >> come on. >> the lying palm will atitions don't want him. and you got for understand, that he is here, by the will of the people. [applause] so i'm asking. i love you. it means, when they said what, the guy was telling, god was -- god was walking with you, but only see but one set of footprints and you have to understand what i'm trying say to you, that, the white woman, and i put it in this category so you understand what i'm saying. the whriet woman and the slave, the people of color, when the system was created, they did not give her the first will be last and the last will be first. the white woman did not have the right and she still don't have the rights and people of color don't have their rights. those are the left outs. donald trump says no we're going to inclusiveness. everybody counts. so that's why, when i see them try to os tra size and pervert, i want you to understand, every white woman, should cast their vote for donald trump, not for donald trump the man but to knockout the system to, help him, to get their rights, and be able to deal with it. [applause] >> and i'm appealing to all the blacks, because they vote, is given away, and with no redeeming factor in their claim to vote by party, that you got vote this way. and this is what you do. but you have nothing. he is the doctor of humanness. a doctor, how do you cure a disease? >> when you are a scientist how do you discover it? you examine the facts that, you find out where does it come from like they're trying to do, with zeek ca and cancer. you want to find every way you can to get it and then you go to the cause. we are treating the effects, not cause. [applause] >> he is the only man, that has took on that awesome, that responsibility that says why? and when he says why, he has to be able to demonstrate to blacks and the white woman, and all the freedom loving white men that we must put him in the office so we can get a chance for a miracle, a new nation. conceived in liberty, and all men and women are created equal. [applause] >> so, i am indeed, very, very proud, i feel honored and privileged, that i have this opportunity to speak to you and i'm telling all of my brothers, i understand they're looking for a position, whoever would be the president or whatever they do, it's the system, is the enemy. not donald trump. you can see, they vet him like no other person in the world. you must realize his gene cruise lie he is in his ability to win and to be successful. if he's a businessman. you don't beg him like a politician. but they vet him, because he takes nothing and made something out of it. everything that they would condemn, that would be looked upon, he would just flip the coin and make it successful. that's the businessman. we want to do the same thing, with our blessing. i go around the world, and presidents call me, like i'm a leader because we can say the same things off to me, that they can't say, political correct. he don't care about no political correctness. he wants rights. that's, and that's why i will walk with him, talk with him and plead to the people to understand, the system is the problem. and he's the only glad de eight tor that would at that time system, to be able to throw the system out and create a new system, where it encompasses all women, people of color and all freedom loving people come together to support themselves, under the leader ship of the dynamic, the human man that will fight for you're right of donald trump. this is what we want,. and this is what america needs. we need him, especially black people. because you have to understand, they told me, you got to try to imitate the white man and then you can be successful. so we tried that and you think you can get some money, and i told michael jackson, if you poor, you are poor negro. i would use the "n" word. but if you are rich, you a rich negro. if you are intelligent, power an intellectual negro. if you are dancing, and sliding, negro -- you are dancing and sliding, negro. so dare not alienate because you cannot assimilate. so you know you'll be a negro until you die. so, when you deal with the reality of what life means, i learned the lesson because i've been on both sides, when i came out of the penitentiary and i add congregation, asking me to save the hospital. and, it does my heart good, and it's a joy to me, could we save cleveland and be, let the leaders come, and to change things in ohio, the great state of ohio, to come here today, to bring a man that says we're going to change the nation. and i am honored and privileged, dedicated to the commitment of the principles of this great nation, to introduce you to, the next president of the united states donald j. trump. [cheers] . >> donald j. trump. donald j. trump! [cheers] . >> for the people. not for him so much but he's the leader, that will lead us to the promise land. >> he's the man to do it. [cheers] . >> there's only one don king. [cheers] . >> i want to thank you very much and don, it was so special, i spoke to don yesterday, and how about taking a trip to cleveland, and he said i love cleveland and this is his place. and i said i would love to have you introduce me and he was right there, and we left at 6:00 in the morning. he was right there and he is an amazing guy and he's bane friend of mine for a long time. i don't want to say he's a good guy because i don't want to destroy his reputation. but he is a good guy. he's a phenomenal person. he became very rich. very smart, and he took advantage of lots of situations. and, i have great respect for that. and great respect for him. and i want to thank don for being here. thank you, don. [cheers] . >> i want to thank my friend daryl scott who has been amazing. [cheers] . >> amazing guy. >> clear cheer. >> i met daryl through michael, and then i saw daryl policy television, and i called michael and i said this man is fantastic. where do you fine somebody like this? i have to get on know him a little better and i have gotten to know him better. he's a -- he's spectacular. i watch him on television, and i feel so sorry for the people on the other side of the table. i have only seen you about 100 times. and he knows how onto win and he loves you folks. he loves you folks, and he loves this church. thank you very much. pastor scott. >> michael thank you not only for the introduction but for a beautiful speech. i think he worked very hard on that speech. [applause] >> ben carson has been my friend for a long time. [cheers] . >> will. [cheers] . >> he was tough. i tell you what, i was doing really well but there was one guy in the pack, i would look at those polls and ben, i was at 28, 29. and ben was like, at 10, and then, 12. and then i forward be so nice, he is such an incredible guy. 14, 16, and 20, and he went to 21. and 24, and i said, what do we do. he was so nice. [laughter] >> he did better than anybody. [applause] clear cheer. >> it was amazing. he was amazing, and he has not only a brilliant guy but he has a brilliant heart. he loves people. [applause] >> if all of this happens, it will be a great place for ben. i don't know if he wants that. but i know he wants to help people. [applause] >> but there will be a great place. and general flynn, another man who is just so incredible. [applause] >> oh, boy. there's a if you have general. >> i always talk about mcarthur, and i'm a big fan of mcarthur and george pat fon and if they saw what was going today, with all the butchery, and all of the problems, their spinning in their grave the way we fight. because we have to end that problem and that is man that knows how to enproblems and general flynn, and kellogg, and we have so many friends, we have over 200 generals and admirals, supporting us now. i didn't know they had that many. [cheers] . >> but we have had and then the other day you saw that we had, 17 congress pal medal of medal r winners endorse me. we the admirals and generals, and it's been really an amazing prvment so i want to thank everybody. and i want to thank the african-american community. but the poll numbers are going like a rocket ship. [applause] >> i think initially where i was very low, they didn't know what to expect. and as i spoke about the inner cities in such trouble and instances like, with charlotte and tulsa, and problems and we want to see that unify as quickly as possible. those are two problems that we have to get that taken care of. it's stood see. as i spoke about the inner cities and i went down a list of problems, in the inner cities and i said this, 3, 4 times, and i go down the list and we talk about the incredible crime. chicago i think has had 3,000 shootings as a exam frel just the beginning of the year. 3,000. they're being killed and it's very horrible and i talked about the crime and lack of education. and the bad schools. and i talked about jobs. the jobs are just so bad. i said that 3, 4, 5 times and one day i said, what do you have to lose? i mean what do you have to lose? i'm going to fix it. and somehow, that resonated. some people didn't like it. but i said, what difference does it make. [laughter] >> it's true. what do you have to lose t. resonated and it's been amazing. because it's true. the democrats have one the inner cities up to 100 years. unbroken. and, we're very different. i'm different. and i'm different from a lot of republicans frankly and that's why we're winning states that aren't even in play for other republicans. [cheers] . >> as a example somebody said we're up in maine. it's not a state where republicans are flocking to. but we're up in maine. amazing thing. we're doing great in connecticut. we're doing great all over. so we're winning florida. we're winning ohio. i see we're winning north carolina. [cheers] . >> we're winning, it's just amazing, we're winning colorado. up four points and we're up in other places that are just amazing places and great, and we're thrilled. we had a very good poll from new mexico. so we're winning areas that are not usually areas na people consider -- that's why you see the boards, the whole map. well trump has -- now, all these states are saying, what's going on here? we are working very, very hard and hopefully at the end and i want to, i have to thank mike pence. what an unbelievable person. [applause] >> you know, the first time i met mike i liked him a lot. and he was very much considered that this was going to be his position. a lot of people wanted him to run. and he has run in indiana. very popular and one of the most successful states and their tax vest gone down and employment has been incredible and they brought companies n. it's been a great story. and he has done it. but the first time i met him, we had a wonderful meeting and it lasted 20 minutes and i asked him for his endorsement and i was running in indiana and he could not do that because of the fact that, he had other commitmentss and he ends doored ted cruz, and when he made it, i thought it was more after endorsement for me and then he said i'm voting for ted cruise, and, let's get back to donald trump. [applause] >> ted cruz didn't know whether he was endorsed. but i liked him. i liked him. but he said something after that first 15 or 20 minutes i left, and said, donald may we pray? that doesn't happen when i leave an office? it usually is like, they have bad thoughts. believe me. bad, bad thoughts. did you know, may we pray? now daryl is really, inspired by mike. but mike is great we did pray and his family, karen and the family are incredible. that was a really good choice. i wrote somethings out that i think so much about, thank you. >> thank you. >> stand up, mike. karen. amazing. >> been an amazing partner. yesterday neves virginia. and it was a downpour. ed that grate group of people and -- i'll get angry at him and jealous, with the crowds and he'll teach me not to be jealous and something daryl does going to work on. and he had a great crowd and there was this massive downpour and they were all outside, on the lawn and they were drenched. and he said, nobody left. and the press covered t. nobody left. they never saw anything like it. that's a good sign. because i think we'll do well in virginia. so that's a good sign. thank you, and, very sperchlt very special guy and amorrosa. wonderful woman. don't leave. she's a wonderful woman. she has done so much for me, with the african-american community, with communities general immediate and she's another one. such a fine person and nobody knows it, and i just blew her income for the next 20 years. you are amazing, and i want to thank you very much. she works so hard and she feels so strongly. [applause] >> i mean i did help make hear star. i don't feel so guilty. [laughter] >> so thanks, i wrote somethings out having doing with inner cities and the right here and, i'll read it out four, but i feel very strong immediate about it. so much can be done. it's not being done. they come and they take your vote and then they say we'll see in you four years. thanks a lot. and we'll see in you four years and we're going to do it a lot different immediate. for industries the african-american church has been the examination of our country. it's from the pews, and pulpits and featurings, of black churches all across the land, that the civil rights movement lifted up the soul of our nation. it's from these pews that our nation has been inspired toward a better moral character. a deeper concern for man kind and a spirit of charity and unity that bienltds us all together. the african-american faith community has been one of god's greatest gifts to america and to the american people. there's perhaps no action, our leaders can tax that would do more to heal and i mean heal our country, and, support our people than to provide a greater platform, stronger, greater, to the black churches, and churchgoers. i was in detroit, with bishop jackson. incredible guy also. and, if was incredible. what i saw. the love in that room, and i'm not saying the love for me. the love for everybody. and the spirit even the song. his wife is a beautiful singer. it was just amazing. i didn't want to leave. so it's great. you do right everyday, by your community and your family. you raise children, and the light of god, i will always support your church and defend you're right to worship always. [applause] >> i am here it listen and i hope my presence will help, very much help your voice to reach your things, in our country and, these are people, many people out there, that need it. christian faith is not the past but the present and the future. it is the foundation of progress. i pledge to you, thatfy win, some people, if and when, let's say if, close race. but if you all vote we'll win. i pledge to you that we're going to end the johnson amended meant which takes away the voice of your pastors, and ministers and your great leaders and takes away their voice. quickly the johnson amendment. [applause] >> that's so important. thank you. >> taking away your voice, passed in 1954 by johnson, because he didn't get along with a certain church. they say, in houston, because the pastor was maybe against him, maybe not with him. shows you the power of johnson. you have to respect it. but he had this path that takes away your leaders and the people you most respect. people like pastor daryl supreme court he's not aloued to talk politics, if he. they take away their tax exception. their silencing your leaders and, people that you want to hear. it's not their. i want to hear. so we'll get rid of the johnson amendment. [applause] >> as i campaign, every community i will have an opportunity to lay out my plans for economic change, i will have a chance to discuss school choice which is so important and how to put every american on the ladder to success. meaning a great education and a great job. [applause] >> but today, i just want to let you know, that i am here to listen. to you, i'm going to listen. and i'm always going listen. it's a promise that i make. i'm running to be president for all americans. everyone. our nation is too divided. we talk past each other. not to each other and to those who seek office we do not do enough to step in, to the community and learn what is happening and what is going. they don't do it. [applause] >> they want your vote and they're gone. i'm here today, to learn, so that we can together, remedy injustice in all of its many unattractive forms. our blitz cal system has failed the people and works only to enrich itself. i want to reform that system, so that it works for you. all of you. i believe true reform and only come from outside the system, from outside the establishment. becoming the nominee of the partive abraham lincoln has been the greatest honor of my life. it's on his legacy that i hope to build the future of of our party. i believe we need the civil rights agenda, for our time. one that ensures the right to a good education, and the right for live in safety, and in peace. it also means the right -- so true. so unfair. when you see people being shot in the streets, and, walking for a store with their child. often times their child is being shot. for no reason whatsoever. so sad. it also means the right to have a government that protects our workers, and fights, for our jobs. i want to rebuild our country and our inner cities. it's time. [applause] >> it breaks my heart to see any american left behind or to see a city like chief land, that has had so many struggles. nothing is more sad than when we sideline young americans, with unfulfilled potential. you look at somebody like don king where he has become so successful. he just broke that system. he would not take no. i mean he's an amazing inspiration. including me. our whole country loses out. we're one nation, and when anyone hurts, we all hurt together. that's the way it is. [applause] >> that's the way it should be, too. >> we are all brothers and sisters, and we're all created, everyone created by the same god. [applause] >> we must love each other and support each other and we're all in this together. flaws flaws. >> i fully understand that the african-american community has suffered from discrimination, and that there are many wrong that must still be made right. i want to make america prosperous for everyone. i want to make this city the economic envy of the world. here, in detroit, and baltimore, and there's so many places, we have so much work to do. factories everywhere. new roads and new bridges and new school and new hopes and bring our jobs back. they have been taken away by politics, that don't know what they are doing. our companies have left and gone to mexico. we'll bring them back. believe me. it's not even to be hard. i've been so greatly blessed, with no greater bless then than my family. i have a wonderful family. [applause] >> nothing would make me happier and more fulfilled than to use what i have learned in business, and in traveling the world, to bring wealth and prosperirity and opportunity to those that have not had these opportunity before. when i see wages falling, and falling big league, people were making more money, 18 years ago, than they're making today and today they're working harder and they have two jobs. not supposed to be that way. i know the hardships this inflicts, and i am determined to do something about it. please know for any who are hurting, things are going to turn and turn for the better. [applause] >> we are going to win again for all of our people. not just certain segments. for all of our people. i want to work with you, to renew the bonds of trust between citizens and the bonds of faith that make our nation strong. america has been lifted out of many of its most difficult hours through the miracle of faith, and you people understand that, very well. everybody in this room understands. which is one of the reasons you're here. now, in these hard times, for our country, lets turn again for our christian heritage to, lift up the soul of our nation. i many so grateful, to be here today. and it's my prayer that america, and the america of tomorrow will be one of unity, togetherness, and peace, and, love. we can do this. i'd like to conclued a passage from first john chapter 4. no one has ever seen god, but if we love one another, god lives in us. and his love is made complete in us. so true. so, pastor, i want to thank you and the thank the congregation. this has been a really great honor and we have some interesting days ahead and we have a little debate. anybody going to watch. [applause] >> we have a very big election on november 8th. get out and vote. but, again, to the african-american community to his fan nick and all communities i want to say we're going to make it right. we're going make it great. thank, thank you all. [applause] >> we have a few questions na -- [cheers] . >> we have questions, and we have pastor from all over the great state of ohio, and we have some questions that we would like for you to answer. question number 1, our failing public school systems are holding our children back. what is your plan to help our children get access to the best possible education? what is your view on school choice? >> we have to have choice. it's a must. and we have to end common core and bring education local. we'll have great education. we don't have it now. but choice, very important. and common core has to be ended. we're bringing education local, meaning our loving parents and all of the professionals, we'll do it on a local basis. balls plus a. >> mr. trump, inner cities have been ravaged by violence and addiction, and tension between law enforcement and, neighborhoods and how do you build safer communities. >> you see what's going on, in this room. and you have everybody in this room. you have asian and white and black, and everybody, and you see what's happening. that's the churches are so important. the other think we have to stop the drugs from pouring in from pay cross the board demplet we have a tremendous drug problem, in cleveland and ohio and, north and south south and in new hampshire. heroin, in particular. but, we are our country is being poisoned and it is pouring across the southern border. you know the border patrol agents are great. they endorsed us. and first time they have ever endorsed a presidential candidate. we are going stop the drugs from poisoning our youth. >> the african community has voted democrat. we have strong opposition from the party through the black community. but, nothing here. [cheers] . >> ain't stopping nothing here. >> you're making a strong case for the vote this year. how can the conservative agenda help all of our communities? >> well, you know, it's not about the conservative agenda. you have been trying and working in the inner cities for so many years. sometimes over 100 years. and they're a disaster. the schools, the safe tics the jobs, and it's all horrible. in some cases they are less safe than places like afghanistan. some of the inner cities are less safe. so i just tell you this, we are going to make such headway, such a change, and you know they're not going to do it. because they've been doing it for 50, 60, and minimum is like 32, there's one 32. unbroken. and i say that, and, some people, i told you before, some people love it and some don't like it. what do you have to lose? it can't get any worse. they can't get much worse. perhaps but not much. and i will fix twavment do you have to lose? we'll change it. >> just a couple more. the number 1 issue, plaguing so many family says the lack of jobs. how do you pledge to grow the economy and create jobs for america start all over again, believe me. we are going to bring the companies back. so that will be the thing maybe i originally started on that and it legal immigration and to have to stop illegal immigration by the way. [applause] and hillary clinton is not capable of doing it. once this election is over, will you continue to engage the community when we are not -- when we have a continuing access to the white house to speak what we see to be the voice of god to you. >> i can tell you a member of the ways are by getting you folks and ben carson and everybody totally involved with the communities. because right now you don't have any involvement with washington and the involvement you have purchasewhich is the common core involvement isn't a good involvement. we are going to be very much involved in the inner cities and create incentives so they can grow and produce jobs. it's like candy being taken away from a baby and we are not going to let that happen anymore. you've never been able to replace the jobs that you had when you were younger and we are going to bring the companies back and bring the jobs back. it is to a large stand about jobs. the supreme court justice will make decisions for the rights of every american that make him to the nature of the government and society of many years. what would you stand strong on your subjective and appointments and stay committed to naming only the true constitutionalists to the bench. [applause] that question or that response was amazing because we get so many places. they have an amazing story, amazing wall street story about all the support we are getting a. a. they see the job creation which is so important and it's been amazing. they are very very much into the world of the constitution. i will pick from that group of 20 people these are 20 outstanding people and the rest of them are adding nine more. they are amazing judges and i will pick from that group and the lost these judges so i think it is very [inaudible] >> it's so important. they should be ashamed of themselves. >> this is the final question. it's a question that involves all-americans. i'm honored to ask this question in for the first time because i know the media is here. your response will be heard around the planet so you can take your time to think it through. what do you have to say about the recent shootings of unarmed black man by the police up to and including the shooting in north carolina yesterday and the shooting in tulsa the day before? >> i made tremendous believe are in the police and law enforcement. [applause] i've gotten the endorsement from so many different groups and they are great people. they are bad or it chokes. i must tell you i watched the shooting in particular in tulsa and batman must hands up to the -- that man was hands up and to me it looked like he did everything he was supposed to do. he looked like a really good man and maybe i'm a little clouded because i saw his family talking about it after the fact so you get a little bit different image but it looked like somebody that was doing what they were asking him to do. and this young officer, i don't know what she was thinking were what she was thinking that i am very troubled by that. [applause] these things are terrible. in my opinion it was a terrible situation. we've seen others did she get scared, was she choking, what happened, but people thought do that, maybe they can't be doing what they do. [applause] [inaudible] [applause] they will just have to get better and better. thank you. [applause] >> let's put our hands together for mr. donald trump. [applause] i'm going to ask my wife -- i want you to stretch forth on his behalf. years ago when we first met him and he was considering running for president was nationally known and said something to you i don't know if you remember but if you choose to run for president there will be an attack against you. i am watching this every day. >> i want to first take this opportunity to thank cleveland ohio and all of the media that came out. i want to thank all of the men and women of god as all of you that took the time out of your day. cleveland is just a different place. we know how to conduct ourselves in cleveland, and we represent very well. this is a monumental day. i have the pleasure -- i'm different from my husband in so many ways more than just gender. i'm very sensitive about who i meet and who i get to know. i'm just that kind of person. when i first met mr. trump, he walked through the door of trump towers and i thought that is a very tall man and as he walked in, he immediately bowed his head. my husband will tell you, you know i pay attention to the details. i can't help it. he immediately dropped his head and recognized he was in the room with clergy. he has a reverence for clergy that i've never seen before in my 58, 59 years of life. [applause] i know it's hard for you all to believe that the man that they showed in the media is different. i'm here to tell you this is a different man. this is a unique man. this is a leader that will be great for our nation and will be the hope for black americans. this is a person that will be good for our nation and most of all this is a person that will be good for our military. this is the person that is going to make our nation safe, our countrsafer, ourcountry safe. we don't want a nation that we walked down the street and bombings will be happening every time. we don't want to be shot at for no reason. we want to go to our synagogues and churches. let's let out a praise you all can do so much better than that. we can do what we want to do, be what we want to be and i think mr. donald trump will do that. i know i went there but you shouldn't have given me the microphone. i appreciate this man. i appreciate him and i didn't think anybody could create anybody like him. i know the media went there but i love this man. you all did not have to make this at the front and center of leadership. [inaudible] i know that mr. donald trump will do that. he is a family man, he is a businessman who has some business stamina. he has three more meetings today. i appreciate this man. once again, thank them for coming to cleveland. [applause] let's stretch our hands right now we think you in the name of jesus that you raised a man for such a time as this. we ask you right now that your choices this choice. we believe all authorities of you and now i ask that you would touch this man and give him the anointing to lead this nation and a roomful of clergy and business owners, mothers, wives, husbands, fathers we ask for help and ask that to be in the form of the next president mr. donald trump. we ask you to bless him and keep him safe, give him the wisdom to lead this great nation, in jesus name amen. thank you for letting me go a little bit longer. [applause] as election da day approaches te campaign continues to play. here are a couple of the latest ads from donald trump and hillary clinton. >> one of the areas i've been particularly interested in is the area of children. >> we need to be sure everybody in this room and every child in tape is somebody no matter where they are born, no matter to whom they are born i want to make sure that every child has a chance to live up to his or her god-given potential. >> i spent my life fighting for children and i'm not stopping now. >> i'm hillary clinton and i've always approve this message. >> donald trump an, builder, businessman, success doing what others call the called impossibd trump's priority, you. dreaming big, building bigger united for family, jobs, country, defined by freedom, standing together wishing i had, leaving the past behind, changing the future. together we will make america great again. >> i'm donald trump and i approved this message. in a campaign rally in florida hillary clinton talked about the recent shooting of an unarmed man impulse oklahoma saying we are safer when communities respect police and police respect communities. she talks about 40 minutes. ♪ ♪ thank you all so much. i am so happy to be back and i want to thank all of you for being here today at the center that does good work in the community. your meir who was here earlier i want to thank the chair of the orange county disability caucus and everyone especially. i know you've got the crowd and i want you to stay. she's going to be a great member of congress for everything we are fighting for. i want to thank anastacia for the introduction. didn't she do an amazing job? [applause] i first met anastasia when she was 9-years-old. she raised her hand at a town hall and said my twin sister can't speak. because of that, they put her in a separate class apart from the rest of the kid. but she can communicate with a computer and is very smart and would do just as well as anyone else of the principal and teachers would just give her a. i was blown away by this 9-year-old girl, her confidence and how much she loved her sister. so, anastasia and i have stayed in touch over the years. when she grew up, she became an intern in the senate. i was so proud of her speech at the democratic national convention in philadelphia. [applause] and i'm very excited that she is here with us today. i also want to thank orlando. it's great to be back in this wonderful city with all of you. you've been through a lot this year. [applause] and what has been some notable is you have responded with grace. you've shown the world what orlando is made of. strength, love and kindness. this is all something we can use more of right now. [applause] i am here today to talk about how to make the economy work for everyone but i want to say something about the upsetting incidences that took place over the last few days. first an unarmed man was shot and killed by a police officer in tulsa then shot and killed in charlotte. i'm sending condolences and prayers to their families and i know a lot of you are as well. there is still much we don't know about what happened but we do know that we have two more names to add to the list in the use encounters it is unbearable and it needs to become intolerable. we also saw the targeting of police officers and adelphia last week and last night in charlotte, 12 officers were injured in demonstrations following keith lamont scott death. everyday police officers are serving with extraordinary courage, honor and skill. the sauce again this weekend in new york and new jersey and minnesota. or police handled those attacks exactly right and they saved a lot of lives. i've spoken to many of the leaders. as deeply as committed as i am to reform by, because they know that it's essential for the safety of the communities and our officers. we are safer when communities respect the police and police respect communities. [applause] i've also been privileged to spend a lot of time with mothers who lost children and young people who feel that as far as their country is concerned their lives seem disposable. we've got to do better and i know that we can. and if i am elected president, we will together it is the only way it can be done. [applause] it's too certain that too many people have lost their lives who shouldn't have. sabrina fulton has become a friend of mine. her son was killed not far from where we are today. sabrina said this is about saving our children. and she is absolutely right. we need to come together and work together white, black, latino, asian, all of us to turn the tide, stop the violence, build trust. [applause] we need to give all of our kids, no matter who they are chance to grow up safe and healthy in their communities and in the country. there are so many issues we need to take on together and that's why we are here today because it defeats co. in just 48 days, americans will go to the polls and choose our next president. [applause] [cheering] i want to just stress that our campaign is about the fundamental belief that in america, every person no matter what you look like, who you are, who you love, you should have the chance to go as far as your hard work and dreams will take you. that is the basic paradigm that made the country great and it's our job to make sure that it's there for you and future generations. building an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top come is the central challenge of our time and i take it personally because i am a proud product of the american middle class. my grandfather started working in scranton pennsylvania when he was just a boy and worked there for 50 years. thanks to him my dad was able to go to college and start his own small business. because my dad and my mom i could head out into the world and follow my dreams. every american family should be able to write a similar story for themselves and their children. and history has shown us, history has shown us the strongest growth in the economy is inclusive. inclusive. when everyone can contribute to the prosperity and share in its rewards. here is one example. the flood of women into the american work force over the past several decades was responsible for more than three and a half trillion dollars on economic growth as the labor force participation slowed in recent years due in part to the failure to provide family-friendly policies like paid leave and affordable child care, so the economic growth wasn't as strong as it would have been. women who want to work deserve to work and whenever they are denied that opportunity, it is not fair to them coming if we all lose out. in a competitive global economy we cannot afford to leave on the sidelines. when we leave people out or write them off he not only shortchanged them and their dreams we short change the country and our own futures. that is one reason why i care so much about supporting working parents. it's one reason why i'm such a strong supporters of comprehensive immigration reform is bringing millions of undocumented workers into the economy will decrease exploitation and it will increase our economic growth and tax base. [applause] it is estimated if we did this despite what you hear from the other side, we would increase our gross domestic product by an estimated $700 billion in ten years. it's also one reason we have to break down barriers of systemic racism including underinvestment that have held the communities of color. that's part of building an inclusive economy and that's why i believe we need to do more to help young people who are left behind in the wake of the great recession. find those strategies and opportunities that will get them moving ahead again and we've got to help older americans have been displaced by automation and outsourcing in our changing economy. [applause] too often training and retraining doesn't work as it should. if you don't have a four year degree, if you have end really had the chance to upgrade your skills over the years, it's hard to just make a course correcti correction. we need to have apprenticeships and community college and technical programs starting in high school and moving all the way up to older workers whether you are trying to start your career or spent decades contributing to the economy you deserve better. now these are some of the elements of my plan for an inclusive economy and i'm going to hold up the book tim kane and i have put out because we actually put in one place or planned. we have this old-fashioned idea if we are asking you to support us, we should tell you what we are going to do. [applause] today i want to focus on one area that hasn't gotten enough attention. it concerned a group of americans who were too often invisible, overlooked and undervalued who have so much to offer but are given few chances to prove it. that has been true for a long time and we have to change it. i'm talking about people with disability. [cheering] men and women, boys and girls who have talents, skills, ideas and dreams for themselves and their families just like anybody else. whether they can participate in the economy and lead full lives that are healthy and productive as possible is a reflection on us as a country and right now into manintoo many ways we are g short. we've got to face that and do better because this does go to the heart of fdr as americans. i intend this to be a vital aspect of my presidency. [cheering] i want to bring us together as a nation to recognize the humanity and support the potential of all of our people. and i want you to hear this because this is not well-known. nearly one in five americans live with a disability. some of whose disabilities are highly visible, some much harder to notice. if you don't think you know someone with a disability, i promise you, you do. [applause] but their disability is just one part of who they are. across the country people with disabilities are running businesses, teaching students, caring for our loved ones, holding public office, making breakthrough scientific discoveries, reporting the news and creating art that inspires and challenges us. [cheering] they are veterans whose service and sacrifice and keep our country safe, they are working in the white house. just last year a young woman became the first receptionist who was deaf. so when world leaders come to the white house, the person who greets them is leah. think of the nation. the message it sends how we see the talent than anyone. [applause] and americans with disabilities are working on presidential campaigns. i know because several of my staff and advisers have disabilities and they are doing phenomenal work. find great to them every single day. [applause] and people all over america would say the same about their boss, colleague, employee, family member with a disability. over the past few decades, our country has taken a leap forward not just recognizing the humanity and dignity but making long-overdue changes in our schools, workplaces and communities so everyone can be part of our shared american life. even so, not that long ago if you had a disability if you couldn't see, couldn't walk, with muscular dystrophy or some other health issue, that's one fact was allowed to define your entire life and because of that and that alone the world was closed off to you, not all of it, not for everyone but for most people, basic essential things others could do you couldn't and never would. i saw this for myself when i was just starting out as a young lawyer working with the children's defense fund one of my first assignments was to figure out why so many american kids were not in school. we looked at the track numbers. then we would look at school enrollment numbers and say wait a minute where are the kids, why aren't they in school. i went door-to-door along with people across the country going to different communities. in massachusetts we saw a notable disparity and i soon realized part of the problem was kids were stuck at home because of disabilities. i remember a little girl in a wheelchair who was smart, curious, desperate to go to school but that chair held her back. not all had cramps or accessible bathrooms. most teachers and aides were not trained to help her so she didn't get to go. it felt like the world had said to her sorry, kid come in your life isn't going to be worth very much. she and her family were not rich or powerful so what could he do about it? that little girl reminded me of another little girl, my mother. she didn't face the same challenges, but she also was blocked from a full and happy childhood, abandoned by her own parents raised by grandparents who didn't want her and ended up on her own when she was just 14 supporting herself but then something finally went her way. the woman she worked for and encouraged her to finish high school and that family showed my mother wit what a happy family looked like. after many lonely years wa longe start of a better life. the lesson from her childhood is that none of us gets through life alone. we all have to look out for each other and lift each other up. and i remembered that the sitting with that little girl in a wheelchair. my colleagues and i built a coalition of activists across america. saying children with disabilities have the same right to be educated in public schools just like any other kids. [applause] we open the doors to school and then some years later i was so excited by an americans with disabilities act finally passed 26 years ago. it was bipartisan. the notion that workplaces and public spaces belonged to everyone with something democrats and republicans both supported and by the way, i'm proud that some of the democrats and republicans who passed the a landmark bill are supporting my campaign because they know where my heart is on this. [applause] asked the secretary of state, i appointed the first-ever special advisor for disability rights because i wanted americans to stand up the rights and dignity for people with disabilities all over the world and over the years i spent a lot of time working for kids with disabilities. in addition to anastasia who spoke at the convention, another young man also spoke their. i first met him when he was 7-years-old. i was fighting for health care reform. he was born with a rare form of partisan, but he never let that stop him. he has had so many surgeries we lost count of them but his family was always there for him and he was the advocate for himself as he got older and now he's a college graduate looking to beat working in the technology department at his local school district and he's one of the most optimistic people you'll ever meet. listening to ryan and anastasia told their stories at the convention this july and made me think about all the people who never got the chance to get the education that alone go to college to become forces for change. and i thought about the mothers and fathers across america who love their children more than anything and want so badly for them to have every opportunity that they deserve to have an america. [applause] i will never forget something that the actor christopher reeves said. some of you may be too young to know who he was. he was a huge star who played superman. he was unbelievably good-looking. [laughter] he and his wonderful wife or friends of mine and then he was paralyzed in a horse riding accident. he once said he had been thinking about a phrase that comes up a lot in our politics, family values. since my accident, he said, i found a definition that seems to make sense. i think it means we are all family and we all have value. i couldn't agree more. we've come a long way since the fall of 73 when i was going door to door talking to kids and families that make no mistake we still have a lot of work to do. we can't be satisfied, not with over 60% of adults with disabilities are not in the workforce, not when businesses are allowed to pay employees with disabilities a sub minimum wage. [applause] dot when people with physical and intellectual disabilities are still subjected to stigma and discrimination every single day. we've got to build an inclusive economy that welcomes people of values their work, treats them with respect. one advocate after another has told me the same thing. we don't want pity, we want paychecks into the chance to contribute. [applause] as president, i'm going to give them that chance. first we will focus on jobs and incomes. i will fight to get more americans with disabilities a chance to work alongside those without disabilities and do the same job for the same pay and benefits. ever since i was first lady i had a great privilege of the grf traveling the world on behalf of our country. one of the things i noticed is how far behind many countries are in how they treat people with disabilities. very often people with disabilities from the time they are babies and toddlers they are basically forgotten. i want us since we have been the leader in this area to get that ratify it and then demonstrate to other countries what we have done and are doing to give dignity and opportunity to people with disabilities. these ideas are just the start. we are working with advocates to come up with even more. if you have more go to the website and leave your ideas because we are welcoming this debate. this issue is close to my heart. i've always believed the ultimate test of the societies more than the size of our economy or strength of our military. it's how we treat our fellow human beings especially the most vulnerable among us and on this front especially i intend for the presidency to move the country forward. together we will make the economy and country more welcoming because we all went when everybody gets to share in the american dream. [applause] if you want some proof let me tell you this story it's the story of a woman some of you may have read in the "boston globe." i carry a copy of that. she has down syndrome. when she was 21, she got her first job at the local mcdonald's. her mother was a little worried as any mother would be. she wondered whether she be able to handle being independent, could she handle the job, would she even passed the six month training program? not everyone in her class pass passed, and then she excelled for 32 years. earlier this year she began to show signs of onset dementia. 32 years is a pretty good run isn't it? in the end o nearly 100 people showed up. customers, colleagues, friends from over the years, the party lasted for three hours and add 1.1 of the former managers asked for everyone's attention. she turned and said we love you. we appreciate you and respect you and we are all better people for having you in our lives. [applause] after eight years of hard work, isn't that what we all want to hear? isn't that america at our best? we don't thrive on tearing america apart or something ourselves. we know that we believe in equal to v. and dignity for all. and when we fall short, we strive to do better. not to blame and scapegoat but to improve ourselves and to move towards becoming the union that our founders hoped for. this is the chance for us to move still closer to that goal to ensure everyone can contribute to the growing and prosperous america to say loudly and clearly in this country no one is worthless, no one is less than. we are all of value in the united states of america, the greatest country in the world we believe everyone is created equal. [applause] [cheering] and you know what else we believe, we all believe love trumps hate. [cheering] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ these ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ on january 20, 2017 let's have a look. >> if we could please join me in joining the first mail to the presidential inaugural platform. let's do that on three. one, two, three. [laughter] [applause] well-done. >> that video from greg kaplan. for more updates you can follow him on twitter at gregg caplin. >> defense secretary carter and the joint chiefs chairman general or on capitol hill this morning to brief senators on national security challenges and operations against isis. isis. that is f9:30 on c-span. you can also watch online and within on the c-span radio app. in the afternoon we are the government reform subcommittee hearing on mismanagement and the national park service. that's also on c-span live at 1:00 eastern. .. eleven >> >> include the power to write the zero laws in the power of the purse, impeachment, among others in these tools and power congress to observe the oversight over the executive van judicial branches including rooting out fraud by government officials with corruption to take disciplinary action on behalf of the american people when warranted. the duty to surf is a check on the other bridges including corruption and abuse is solemn and congress must not take this responsibility lightly why we have scheduled the hearing today the american people first learned their own government was singling out conservative groups for height and review by the irs as they applied for tax-exempt status. the irs targeting scandal was nothing short of shocking. a political plan to silence the voices of groups representing millions of americans as conservative groups across the nation were impacted by the targeting unwarranted request and delays of the application but then the official bolus lerner step down from her position but questions remain of the scope of the abuse by the irs. the allegations of miss -- against commissioner koskinen on his watch and volumes of information crucial to the investigation into the irs targeting scandal were destroyed before the tapes were destroyed congressional demands including subpoenas for information about the irs targeting scandal went unanswered and not -- not complied. providing misleading testimony before that house oversight concerning the irs information to congress. this committee has taken the allegations seriously over the past several months the committee has poured a through a thousands of pages of information produced despite the investigation. may 24 the committee held a hearing is thought the house oversight care reform committee formally presented findings and evidence to the members of this committee. then holding a second hearing to allow all al outside experts for what was presented at the committee for the hearing in the options for a congressional response. today we hold a third hearing and hear from commissioner koskinen himself of a forward to hearing from him today. why i now recognize the ranking member from michigan for his opening statement. >> numbers, and first commissioner koskinen for joining us today on short notice and under these unusual circumstances. last week a handful of my colleagues attempted to force a vote and when they would fall short but it was abandoned and the hearing was scheduled instead i hope my colleagues see what i see what i look back at the history of impeach with the house of representatives which we all have an obligation to do. no matter how we feel about a particular official successful impeachments are bipartisan efforts and attacks and they are doomed from the start. mr. chairman, in the effort as commissioner koskinen is destined to fail as a matter of process to force the measure to the floor again i fear it will said a terrible precedent on the merits of the critics as they have not proved their case prepared real investigation that they have refuted the charges against commissioner koskinen. the senate finance committee that serves as the only bipartisan account of the of matter that the commissioner tried to mislead congress at any time. the department of justice found no evidence that any iras official acted based dog political discriminatory corrupt or other inappropriate motives. or no evidence that any official attempted to obstruct justice the treasury inspector general found evidence bomb that the irs employees had been directed to destroy one or hide information from congress. mw despite these findings some continued to insist the commissioner ordered so citing zero evidence as independent fact checkers rated this as false. there is simply no evidence that the commissioner has acted with the intention of bad faith with his leadership of the irs. but even if there were some evidence of wrongdoing, the purpose to push the commissioner without basic due process is wildly misguided. according to parliamentarians of that house passed and president, past and present buffers the committee has to investigate the charges. nearly including the word impeachment in the title does not do the job at all. at the actual impeachment hearing would be represented by counsel. in to be presented against him. and to deny access from the house oversight committee even though we are told those transcripts are key to when foremost charges against it. many members are in the same position i am not on alone to be skeptical of the shore process. by this in -- by this committee. 2006 the gentleman from wisconsin argued only after the house judiciary committee conducted a fair and thorough and detailed investigation will committee members be able to consider if those articles of impeachment might be warranted. and in 2010 to express confidence in the impeachment with the exhaustive investigation. that is included in your words but with fat new evidence was never considered it a previous investigation conducted numerous interviews with firsthand with mrs. to take us testimony of the firsthand witnesses and scholars. all of that process is missing here. we have and our power to skip the whatever precedent does that set? never in the history of this body have we impeach a government official without first proving never in modern practice have we declined to provide the key is with the most basic right to counsel. and also the evidence against him. if the commissioners critics have their way about going for word. in the house applying the evidence without wrongdoing without regard toward the accused. so in this manner will not result in the removal. senators of both parties and of process we will have to strip the sensibilities of their weight and dignity and apparently as a last resort and uh commissioner koskinen thank you again stick to the law and the fax you will be fine. i yield back. >> without objection it will be part of the record. please rise like can swear you in. are you aware the testimony is the truth though whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? let the record show the witness answered in the affirmative. commissioner koskinen was sworn in as the 48 irs commissioner december 23, 2013. prior to his appointment he served as a nonexecutive chairman in 2008 through 2012. previously he served as president of the u.s. offered foundation deputy mayor administrator of washington d.c. for goff in the year 2000 with the office of management and budget. you are welcome and your entire testimony is part of the record but summarize in five minutes. >> to be made up part of the record. we have a lot of members with a lot of questions steven good morning chairman, ranking member and members of the committee think for the opportunity i understand the certain responsibilities i every shade your willingness to hear from me when. >> that's my time with. [laughter] and i will do my best to its eruptions' and committed to full cooperation and recognize the obligation of all public service service share to be responsive to congress to respond to feedback and criticism and that we worked diligently to improve poor apologize deeply regret the inability to bring to a close and a way that satisfies all americans. i am under state of the level of suspicion and distrust caused to improperly handled the applications solely on the names of the organization's. so in large part i took the job to restore confidence of the irs to be sure that the agency never return to the unacceptable practice that occurred before i arrived. and end the practices they give rise to the concerns to create a culture of risk-management looking to reassure taxpayers the tax system only works if it doesn't make any difference who they are what political party they belong to. but no one should have to wait years for an answer to a question. >> congress has of right to expect the public trust in a non-partisan to be implemented fully. by devoted my energies as commissioner and the inspector general to implement all of the recommendations as eliminated the use that resulted in the improper scrutiny of may 2013. the irs is also offer the expedited approval process -- approval process and applications for the 501 c for status. so that will remain atop priority everyday at unfortunate enough to continue to serve i also understand there are remaining questions about the irs response to congressional inquiries on my watch i standing ready to answer these questions today i answer with good-faith particularly in response to the discovery that her hard drive had crashed i directed staff to cooperate felice fight to recover lost information whenever possible and i testified to the best of my knowledge. but we did not succeed to preserve all the information requested and some of my testimony i regret the feelings but with the benefit of hindsight that it would have been advisable but the commitment always was to tell the truth will i accept it is up to you based on the record but impeachment would be improper to create disincentives to slow of pace of reform. am afford to answering your questions. >> we will proceed under the five men there rule and i will begin with myself. the report of the investigation concludes in the 2015 report but the investigation revealed the irs does not have an effort to uncover additional responsive the bills. none of the employees are asked prior to that request to have any backup or the of hard drives associated with the exchange 2013 server which would have contained responsive females. the investigation determined if there is would have conducted a search, they would have found that it would have contained in the missing e-mail's from march 2014. is there anything and accurate in that finding of the treasury? if so what is inaccurate about that could. >> there is nothing inaccurate. is my understanding of how that happened but it is accurate. >> is it the duty of the commissioner for with response any bills to congress pet the report of the investigation concluded in the report are as follows once the backup tapes were destroyed as a result of management failing to launch your with the e-mail directive of the electronic e-mail media. followed by all iras employees as possible for handling and disposing the media. is there anything inaccurate in that finding class. >> now the. >> deal believe it is the duty of the irs commissioner to last the inspector general to ensure that many 2013 directive from the irs technology officer concerning their preservation was fully understood by all in police response will for handling backup media? >> guess to the extent they have control over that. >> again that section in to describe you that managing and agency of 90,000 employees. you are the top manager at the irs out when the tax industry shifts included you did not support an official uncover additional responsive females and the backup tapes were destroyed as a result, the inspector general was referring to you >> as leader of the organization responsible for the management. there are a lot but any director. >> after reseed the congressional supreme -- ap the with all e-mail's what affirmative steps did you take for all responsive documents with? >> i met with senior executives and to make sure that document retention acting as my a council at the time with my follow-up to remind them that day in share of the available information. >> pet to those that are destroyed and instructing them not to destroy a without first going through with your responsibility to respond to the subpoena to make sure that no deals are destroyed without first verifying that they are not related to the congressional subpoena? >> i was assured that they managers understood the impact to request the order end 2013 and of follow-up the we were sure would make it clear to preserve documents we were eight months into a massive document search so it seemed everybody would understand the goal in the instruction was to produce all information as quickly as we could wherever it was. >> apparently betting get to the people who do the work of destroying e-mail's spirit got to everyone except to employees and that this time it was revealed when year after the hearings i said that was a mistake it should not have happened and it took responsibility. >> i yield my time. >> chairman, welcome to the committee yesterday and the chairman and i received a letter from one our colleagues and 32 signatures in ask this be made a part of the record. >> without objection. >> commissioner koskinen, sites example of one of the accolades to claim the head of the irs and ordered 25,000 females before congress could review them. commissioner, did you order the destruction in the attempt to obstruct congressional investigators? >> i did not. >> of course, you didn't. there is no evidence to support this claim. one the letter also cites the treasury inspector general. i ask that this letter be made a part of the record as well. >> and in 2015 the inspector general released that no evidence was uncovered but any irs simply has been directed to hide information from congress. the same conclusion was independently reached by the senate finance committee last week we wrote to the inspector general to ask if there is any evidence whatsoever to change its conclusion and responded with did one day commissioner koskinen, has any of those underlying changed since the senate finance committee to the department of justice to be concluded there was no evidence of intent or to obstruct the investigation? >> no. price spoke earlier of uh president of the house that has a basic due process but in in 2010 to seven evidence and in 1996 counsel for president clinton to do the same. and the committee allowed the secretary of war commodity opportunity to explain or presenting witnesses and cross-examine. betty cannot review the evidence against you. with over 58 transcribed interviews and a word key to the charges against your. and to reduce the transcripts. >> kathy bank given the opportunity to review quick. >> no. and the evidence that clear to of those charges? >> i do if there was that was indicated to destroy or mislead i would assume somebody would have already quoted so they would support the fact that i did nothing and i gave no instruction to anyone with the request of the congress. >> thinks for your testimony. >> this administration and uh of the federal employees and officials with those subpoenas and even wine agency stands out. the irs targeted the organization's public expect this type of behavior from dictatorships not from the united states of america. represents with the freedom of religion and that is an attack on the constitution and democracy. this corruption of power continues unrestrained for several years leading to one conclusion. and when it was condoned by the industry shin with the balance of my time going to the gentleman from ohio. >> with the articles of appeasement those that erased the statement is that true? will you commissioner at the time quick. >> yes. >> was a subpoena in place quick. >> yes. >> the assumption is above that. >> but it was of the tapes. >> who is kate? >> the counselor of the commissioner. to be advised of high-profile investigations with the senior management team is that accurate? and looking at the computer crashed and missing eiffel's. with the senior management working on investigations learns that evinces missing in one month later the backup tapes that contain the evidence are destroyed. what a was a dance? your top counselor relearn is the backup tape tapes the primary sources:the one month later they are destroyed. they were supposed to have been destroyed months before he and. >> large number of them had been. >> bayou testified as in front of the oversight committee her hard drive crash to june 2011 as a result the bills cannot be retrieved. recovery tapes no longer exist. they did but they were supposed to have been erased. said they were supposed to have been raised two years prior to the date that they were nervous and how they survived and that exactly one month or 30 days after your top counselor management learn to that the backup tapes have survived have been also delayed been destroyed and that is a twisted its? coincidence it? in making up with the conclusion after interviewing one of the midday shift. >> i will read the statement again. the commissioner testified coax's the start of the investigation, every e-mail has been preserved, nothing lost or destroyed. >> is that true? >> one year later but that is what i believe that the time. and you just told me on march 4th 3 months before that that they had destroyed 422 backup tapes. so how is it true what in the congressional committee. >> it was not true? >> bat on the basis of the evidence discovered later. >> this is a problem. did you think any of these constituents that i represent have this same pattern? audited by the irs and then they destroyed the backup disk? this is what so many americans are frustrated about. excuse me the virus can lose documents then destroy the tapes and nothing happens? ridges asking that he no longer world holds the office. i think that is the least that we can do i yield back. >> >> reviewing thousands of pages of documents the committee to the interviews conducted by the oversight committee. >> direct your questions to the witness. >> then directing my question to the chairman. please stop the clock per redo not think the majority has access? why would you request of the minority if that is your prerogative? >> the chair will take your request under advisement to ascertain if the question was answered in the affirmative. >> but going forward with the impeachment hearing under this committee you ought to seize all relative evidence. so let me say that mr. jordan's questions wasn't it true did you know? note did he tell the truth as you do it quick csx shows nothing about impeachment obviously. >> shows that he did not know he two o the truth as he knew it. they give for being here commissioner koskinen. the department of justice for the tax administration they concluded there is no evidence to support the charges you have not made the case and these proceedings because you are inexpert of tax policy that you can shed some light as commissioner to understand the work of the irs? anything that would prohibit them because they're under audit? >> no. >> have the rules changed since then? david candy individual goes through charitable foundation with debts or obligations? >> there is no tax-exempt organization to benefit any insider. >> would it affect the tax exemption of the foundation? if they purchase a $12,000 helmet and then using $20,000 from the foundation to pay a of a portrait of a himself? if the individual use $100,000 of the foundation money with a settlement or use $158,000 or any of those using tax-exempt foundation money improper does that jeopardize foundation tax exemption? >> abject it is outside the scope of this hearing additionally it is upside the scope and expertise of the witness. >> the roles of the committee would have the gentleman asked of the question and the commissioner well and serve. >> clearly the general rules are understood that the assets should not be used to benefit a major contributor. but the particular facts and circumstances would need to be reviewed carefully. >> would they be improper price. >> i can tell you the rules are clear and it is up to a set of people who are regularly at the irs to make that determination whether in fact that tax exemption status is in jeopardy. >> with a pattern like this was brought to the attention of the irs and they failed to investigate is there a dereliction of duty or impeachable offense? to the commissioner does not make the determination about any private or investigation began referrals and suggestions sometimes to look into a wide range of activities not only from tax-exempt organizations but those that are referred. >> at the time you were appointed why did he ask you to a point you to the head of the irs? what mission? >> i did not talk personally but the secretary from years ago and white house personnel and was asked because they've made a terrible management mistake is before inspector general george years managing corporations under stress with the public and private sector and it was obvious there was of problem that needed to be fixed and i was honored to be asked and designated the responsibility. >> the gentleman from ohio is recognized. >> everybody is afraid of the irs. wonder. they can make your life living hell that is why disown portent they play straight or play favorites or politics. in the years leading up and to the reelection of barack obama in 2012 the irs did play politics to scrutinize the conservative four vote organizations if they have the word team or party in their titles and refuse to grant tax-exempt status. also run into liberal organizations why would they do that? to give barack obama the e advantage in the upcoming election. lotus lerner from was the head of the organization of the irs ordered that the who lobov her told her to do it? didn't go all the way to the firehouse pricks we will never know because she destroyed the evidence then pled the fed fed veal bob injustice department appointed prosecutor in the answers to the questions it is a lot like what hillary clinton did cover she destroyed the evidence of females and by congressional committee. rather than comply she had e-mail's destroyed. even in the devices that store and the e-mail's destroyed and some with a camera. but then the justice department refused to prosecute. mr. commissioner where do you come in? been the elected targeting of consumer groups broke president obama fein tirade to declare that we needed new leadership to help restore confidence so president obama broz u.n. to have the irs and you made matters worse because you testified before the congressional committee and made important stevens before congress which turned out to be false even though you were under oath. referring to three mills use stated the start of this investigation every e-mail has been preserved nothing lost or destroyed. but this turned out to be completely untrue she had tens of thousands destroyed. when you learned instead of informing congress you failed over four months why in the world would you wait? >> actually waited two months of was devised to the situation in april because i said we needed to find as many as we could we found and produced 24,000 from that period of the hard drive crash. she did not destroy information thereafter we provided another 50,000 and all investigators that all e-mail's from 2009 through 2013. >> q had the duty to inform congress but i will move on. >> right agree. in retrospect to do over again i would have contacted congress immediately. the soleil did not change the investigation by a understand the aggravation that caused. i knew the of hard drive crashed and to try to produce all the e-mail's that we could from that . and produced 24,000. >> somalia after learning that destruction of the e-mail's you testified they went to great length to resurrect the e-mail's by other means. this turned out to be false as the irs did very little to recover and experts testified there are six ways they could acquire the evils and failed to look at the of backup tapes and the server and of laptop and her blackberry. she did very middle to comply. my time is running also i will say this what makes me mad about the all whole episode is the irs subpoenaed information from taxpayers all the time if the average taxpayer exercise the same lack of cooperation the irs displayed in this matter they would be a world of trouble. and data be have been prosecuted and likely convicted spending time behind bars but in this case with the powerful irs caught with the handed a the cookie jar to clam up and take the fifth to destroy evidence to be trade your country and got away with that. my time has expired high-yield back. >> i am astonished by the statements made this morning but you are under oath right now? and we had that ig report basically pointing out when you testified before as you knew what at the time. >> article to section four that they should be removed from office on impeachment conviction or other high crimes and misdemeanors i enter still endure not here as an expert play went to a very fine law school. can you tell me which element treason or bribery rather high crimes? >> my position that of the lawyers but i recognize they have heard from constitutional experts. >> i understand but i think working on many impeachments in the past it doesn't smell of -- pass the smell test. is a within the authority to suspend the audit of the taxpayer of a presidential campaign? that they were constrained in the release of the audit. >> the irs commissioner has no authority over any individual audit or the termination and alaska whether or not everything is private and the slat -- the staff takes the very seriously. if the argument was terminated with the agency be allowed to say publicly but we would never comment about any taxpayer's situation status under audit that is all taxpayer information that is protected. >> even if nothing was going on somebody was lying about that? >> we've good never comment on any taxpayer's situation of what was in the information. >> highlight to talk about whether or not somebody took money from a foreign government, russia, but then decided as a candidate or elected official to go easy on over 0.one dash opponent does not fall under herb bribery -- bribery'' >> cannot and a position to comment. >> one of the things that should concern this committee is the fact that our candidates for president has failed to provide transparency on his financial situation by releasing the tax returns as every other candidate as over many decades with the question now rush job plays the of what he must do with the extraordinary comments for the leader is an ad this area of the united states and i hope they may use some time to explore that possibility if you could not get the candidate to do the right thing to let the american people know he is not compromised financially with russia. with a foreign power causing so much problem in the world in the balkans, as syria and elsewhere around the of world and with that i yield back. >> the gentleman from california. >> i will refrain from asking about large nonprofits that may have been influenced by government contributions. that would be too sensitive to mrs. clinton laugh laugh commissioner, the founding fathers did consider impeachment and decided that was too low. [inaudible] that is my understanding. >> so very much did ministrations and is out to. i represent camp pendleton maladministration is what you are fired for up through the rank of general the includes loss of confidence to do the job, failure to get your subordinates to follow your orders, fill your to show the zealous obedience to comply with rules and regulations. these are two different standards between impeachment and the standard for receiving a senior officer. prime-1 to go through the seven minimum we should have a discussion about what actually occurred berger you were under subpoena and looking for documents to assure the oversight committee he were using every possible tool to recover them. but in retrospect did you fail to use every tool to ask enough questions to know that the blackberry would have had many of the lost e-mail's? the servers or the tapes are the documents could have been recovered as you discovered? is that a failure of yours you will have to live with greg. >> the blackberry was in control of the inspector general but we clearly failed in areas of preservation of documents and that was a mistake driven by the fact they were looking every place they thought daybed find them we did find 1,000,300 pages it took us one year to do that and that is where people find where it would, but the inspector general in his review found another 100,000 but those if we have the technique and the time would be important to produce both 250 people working every day my commitment and instruction was to do everything possible to produce information to the committee as fast as thorough as we could. >> plywood ask the report to be placed in the record to the oversight committee. >> without objection. >> obviously to do this over again we would ask it be done differently but i will use the remainder of my time , in light of the fact the agency has generally made decisions about subpoenas coming from congress despite your experience you lack the expertise to know where to go or how to preserve documents of all places to make sure those six different areas, do you think congress should insist having a contact and on responsible person that could be held accountable because they have the expertise to be reasonably expected to have the authority to deliver of documents? >> it will lead be helpful to reaffirm that if congress asks for information we have an obligation to provide it that is the obligation we have to the congress. >> lotus lerner was referred for criminal indictment by the ways and means committee under the statute that said the district of columbia shall present and the industry shin failed to do that. in retrospect american people expect someone to be held accountable for wrongful targeting, wouldn't it have got a long way of the justice department had complied with the law rather than charge not to question america cannot speak for the justice department icahn remind you as the acting commissioner all five levels of people responsible are no longer with the government or the irs or no long-term have their jobs. >> i yield back. >> thanks commissioner and i will apologize for your presence here today. i realize you've made a commitment but it is appropriate to apologize to you for what i believe is a non serious effort relating to the constitution and the impeachment criteria. let me take note to appear link with ginger statement that says it will do my best to ian's your questions i am committed to full cooperation listening and responding to feed back to rick knowledge the mistakes to work to emperor of. do you still adhere to the statement? >> i do. >> you are committed to make sure we get the information that we need? >> practice before years of the senate side chief of staff and share the oversight committee and i fully understand and appreciate and this appropriate to respond as quickly as they can with all information requested. >> and will put into the record for the tax industry shin found three points related that you had not misled congress or allowed evidence to be destroyed in do not considered to have obstructed the oversight but do you believe those were true of your actions as a commissioner? >> i do. >> also a letter dated september 14 when a direct question was asked, no evidence was uncovered to hide information from congress that letter was written by two members of congress as a letter came back from mr. russell and the conclusion no evidence was uncovered that any boys would destroy or hide information. . . on the lookout activities. the numbers from three years or longer. >> it's also important to note this is not an impeachment hearing and even though many of them in as our inquiring in that manner it's also important to note experts have said if we do not, you will have due process. let me proceed with some questions regarding the time after february 2014 what efforts have you made to be constructive and provide information to members of congress? >> we will respond to every request and letter within 30 days if at all possible and i will explain as a general matter over 90% get a response within 90 days. we have not refused to provide any information. we are anxious across-the-board. it affects the pretax figure in the country and it's important to be transparent. >> in this proceeding if it is a high crimes and misdemeanor there are elements that our friends believe that would suggest you would b he would beo an impeachment proceedings. is there anything you can do, you are a lawyer, that would show the action that we have done so. >> it was not a perfect process. there were things again in retrospect. >> basically there is nothing that i feel and no evidence that i've acted in bad faith or giving anybody instructions p6 >> you offered information after the fact. >> we spend a lot of time again finding the 24,000 -- >> i'm sorry for talking over you. is it appropriate for a foundation to give political donations out of the foundation. >> thank you very much commissioner and i believe an apology is owed to you and there is no ground if we were to move in that direction for any form of impeachment. continue to do the good work that you are doing and work on behalf of the american people answering questions in the normal oversight responsibilities. >> the gentleman from virginia for five minutes. >> mr. chairman, thank you. bringing a little common sense, a vast majority of america believe today that our country was headed in the wrong direction and they want us to fix it. i don't apologize for trying to fix it. when i look here and realize the vast majority no longer trust their government, that creates a crisis in the government and they have a good reason to believe that. when whenwhen i see thwhen icv e pentagon where they don't even allow individuals over there to testify or meet with members of congress received evidence being destroyed and misrepresentation of the facts. that's something we should come together and try to fix. so everybody is asking what's appropriate. i want to ask you this, what do you feel is appropriate as the irs commissioner should be held to a lower standard than the taxpayers subject to your jurisdiction a higher standard for the same standard? what do you think is appropria appropriate? >> we should be held to the highest standards. >> should you be held a at least to an equal standard to taxpayers that are subject to your jurisdiction? >> i think we should be held to that standard. >> if that is the case if a taxpayer were sitting where you are sitting with the same responses that you are giving him a taxpayer would be in a lot of trouble before the internal revenue service. let me throw this out. if the facts show that he lied to congress, if they show that yohe lied to congress or that yu mismanaged your office, what do you believe is appropriate for congress to do to try to fix it? you already said you don't think impeachment is the right thing. should we just do nothing or keep coming back and say we are not going to do it again? >> i've never objected to the hearings. >> i'm talking about the conclusions. you said you didn't think that impeachment was inappropriate if a taxpayer were here you said you should be held to the same standards and if they had to pay the irs. >> if they provided information truthfully to produce information and found that it was missing, the first thing we would do is reconstruct those records. >> are not going to tell me if a taxpayer comes to you and files a faulty tax retur false tax res i'm sorry i didn't know that was the case, that you are going to let him off the hook? what do you owe for misrepresenting something to congress, let me say this, mr. commissioner. when you come here to testify to us if you can consistently say i don't know, isn't it a great incentive for you not to do due diligence to find out? you could have told the committee i don't know, but when you make an affirmative statement, doesn't that put you under some responsibility to make sure that you have ascertained that, ancome and the second thing on the other side of the aisle my friends consistently love to say they didn't find any affirmative action that you gave to order that information from going to congress. don't you have an affirmative duty to do everything you can to make sure that doesn't take place? >> i have the duty to make sure the agency functions well but that doesn't take place -- >> in hindsight to did you do everything you could do to find out if you were making accurate statements before congress, and the do everything you could do to make sure that if evidence getting to congress wasn't being impeded plaques >> i couldn't tell the committee things i didn't know. all i could tell the committee in honesty and good faith is what i knew and what i knew was what i told the committee. >> did you do everything within your power? is that what you rely on is that one person told you that? >> we have a large number i have great confidence in and when they tell me they are doing their best to preserve -- >> you can rely on the experts to tell you that in ie would close by saying the commissioner says it should be the same standard and if the taxpayer were sitting there, i think you know h he would've been a worldf hurt and with that, i look back -- yield back mr. chairman. >> the gentleman from tennessee. >> thanks, mr. chair. first, i welcome you. i know that you would rather be other places, but you are here and this has all of the trappings of impeachment, and that is kind of a succeeding to speak. but the standard for impeachment is that the committee considers high crimes or misdemeanors and the question isn't whether you, commissioner, has been a perfect administrator come as a question for the ways and means committee to decide and for the president who appointed you, not for this committee. the question that we are called upon in this context is to decide if the high crimes or misdemeanors that war and the constitutional remedy of impeachment and that would be the misdemeanors that you have committed not that people think your office or predecessor has committed. we heard in the last hearing although they need not be limited to criminal acts, the commissioners critics still need to show that he acted with some deliberate bad faith. they have not done so and they look at the facts i and treasury inspector general, department of justice reached the same conclusion. since you are here, i want to ask you this. has the internal revenue service and funded adequately to perform its job of catching tax cheats and eye-catching for tax cheats and/or the threat thereof, g-golf and the revenues that are necessary to provide the services that the government should be rendering? >> no. >> how much has the budget and cut recently? >> since 20 tenets and $900 million even as we have 10 million more in a wide range of statutory mandates to implement. >> if we cut $900 million is that what you said? >> the budget is $900 million less than it was six years ago. >> has anybody taken a figure and said when you cut the irs 900 million how much revenue is lost because of the lack of ability to audit? >> we estimate and provided information that we are leaving $5 billion a year on the table and it's not a guess as to we might find people that we can't undertake when we know there are difficult days. >> so, we cut $900 million we've lost 4,100,000,000 flex >> correct theory of >> does that contribute to the deficit plaques >> yes. >> and if you cut the irs by that much money coming into the wall are kind of the whipping boy of my friends on the other side of the aisle who don't like to think the government services are so necessary for government has to fund entitlements so if you don't have the money and we lose $4,100,000,000 we are hurting the person at the bottom and it's not an entitlement whether it's the staff payments or energy, folks not getting through the winter without freezing or getting enough food for their children or public schools order public-health looking for cures for cancer and alzheimer's and diabetes and stroke and all the other diseases that are coming to each and every one of us. those folks are getting hurt. when the attack you they are attacking the nih and cdc and people who need payments to me as hunger and public education at public health. and public health. if that's not true? >> there is less money to be provided or appropriated or to cut the deficit. >> it is incredulous to me. you have done nothing to warrant this hearing that's your office is under attack because the government is under attack and the government that is under attack as the government takes care of the poorest and least of these. those that are the most precious in the eyes of the people that look at humanity at a site seeing how we treat others. and if we treat others as we should treat ourselves and follow the golden rule and that is unfortunate. with that i will yield back. >> the gentleman from iowa mr. king for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman and for coming here to testify. this is an important discussion the country is having right now about the reliability and the government agencies. and the first question from me would be dead lois lerner have any kind of a software package or electronic search that excluded were identified to conservative groups that far outweighed the nonconservative groups that ask is a not-for-profit status? they select organizations for further review and a predominantly were conservative organizations. >> was it an electronic system that sorted out these applications? is there anything other than a stack of applications? these names and their titles so if those were progressive names and it was that lis that the thd any organization with these names and the title. it had nothing to do with the political philosophies and views. >> who generated that are beyond the lookout for no? >> i'm not a >> i'm not an expert in what happened before i got there but my understanding is it was a back and forth of the office as well as th the frontline to fige out ho how how do we handle beed that list was developed then there was an attempt to stop using the list. >> has there been any firings or dismissals or anyone in the irs that violated the law in such a way that it was worthy of termination? >> everyone in the chain of command is gone. >> were there any remaining culprits within the irs today? >> not in the responsibility of leadership. >> and if you identify them that would be the duty going forward as well. i would like to take you to martinsburg and have a little trouble understanding that. there were 424 tapes that were discovered in martinsburg and the shipping center that i view as a warehouse of 19 square feet i don't know how big that is a tough night shift decided they would describe the tapes 422 successfully. can you explain to the committee how long it would take to process 422 tapes? >> i would assume that it's a relative process. they've been sent to martinsburg and they were actually related tapes had been erased a couple years before that. they were identified and sent. >> do they process them one tape at a time or multiple tapes in batches? >> i think it's one at a time. >> how long would it take you to put a tape and describe it and then another and another and to get 422 of them done did you know the names of the individuals to process those tapes? they are still working for the irs. >> vig investigated them and provided the report and i can't say anything more. >> i'm not asking you for their names, are they working for the irs? see >> they noted it was an honest mistake and there were people to review it but they said they made an honest mistake. they didn't mean to interfere with anything going on. >> before congress that seemed to be in credulous as string of coincidences could be put together in that fashion and have the vacancies of information that we have. i was just reflect on this, commissioner. if i would take the timeline of the irs activities throughout this thing, and there are many sitting around today and i would overlay that of the timeline today with watergate i ask you which one do you think would sound more and probable? >> in the gap and the intervening provided it was raised with 24,000 e-mails and if we have some information about the conversation there was no information there. it was all lost here. they sent 24,000 e-mails tell me 10,000 were from the gap period. >> i would submit the opposite but i think you commissioner. this hearing has been noticed on the impeachment articles referred on john koch >> there are no impeachment articles and this is not an impeachment hearing. it is therefore a total sham. the process can't begin until the 435 members of the house of representatives adult the resolution authorizing the house judiciary committee to conduct an independent investigation. such resolution hasn't been presented to or passed by the house rendering today's hearing the misnamed force. this committee is a injustice to the committee in the hollow institution by being complicit in the perpetuation of the proceeding. there is a reason for a careful process when it comes to the most drastic action of impeachment. it's called due process. of the branch officials only three times has never impeached the subcabinet official. they maintain the areas of ms. -- conclusions and they've asked for immediate access to the transcripts of all interviews conducted by the house oversight government reform committee during its investigation. we answer basic questions on the scope of the committee's investigation such as the witnesses that were interviewed, what questions were asked, what needs were followed and whether all relevant information was disclosed. but again i would tell you that this committee has conducted no such investigation in the house judiciary committee. this is a drastic departure from our previous process and it's depriving the commissioner of his due process rights. in the baseless conclusions that riddled the so-called charging document is the due process that requires the commissioner to be allowed to make objections to any evidence to cross-examine each witness to the resolution's proponents put forth. they expose blatant factual errors in the resolution and then after the due process allows for the submission of the evidence against him to confront the evidence and present his own evidence and have that evidence subject to confrontation ended then would fall to the sober intellect of the committee to determine whether or not impeachment was warranted again only taking place three times in the history of this country. so what we are doing today, ladies and gentlemen, you know, i know and the american people know it is just playing politics. we've got other things we should be dealing with. this last year so many things for the congress to do passing a budget keeping the government open we are approaching another deadline september 30. no continuing resolution, no omnibus, nothing. and here we are three or four days before we adjourn. i will yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you mr. chairman. sometimes the track record of a particular witness is so strong that it officiates the purpose. to serve the cause of justice, commissioner took over the internal revenue service in the wake of the irs conservative group targeting scandal ostensibly for the precise purpose of reforming the agency. and they would continue deliberately stonewalling justice. they issued a subpoena for documents including all of the e-mails. the irs chief technology officer specifically issued a preservation order instructing employees not to destroy any e-mails, backup tapes or anything relevant to the investigation. in the do not destroy order the irs inspector general found that the agency raised 422 backup tapes containing as many as 24,000 e-mails. i know that's been stated here but all the whilecommittee kept the congress in the dark. he was clearly aware that e-mails have been lost but knowingly and deliberately withheld that information performance and stonewalled the entire investigation. she testified under oath for different times before congress during the four-month period saying that he would turn over all of the e-mails making no mention of the fact that the balk of them had already been lost. he provided false testimony and swore under oath that the information on the backup tapes was not recoverable. they found they were not erased and in fact were recoverable. the commissioner of infield againsthen failedagainst the fuf discrimination. the general accounting office report found no significant measures have been implemented under mr. koskinen's watch to ensure the service don't continue in the future to unlawfully target americans based on their political or religious views. mr. chairman, this entire matter was absolutely counter to everythineverything the republie ours was meant to be. in the constitutional republic like the united states of america we are fundamentally predicated on them with law and there are very few things that more shamefully break faith with america and the american people were undermined the trust of theiintheir government more than witnessing those given the responsibility to enforce taxation equally and according to the law using the federal government's power of taxation and its power to unlawfully and economically destroyed. for them to vendela brickley of us american citizens based on the religious or political views with these powers is an unconscionable act in such a tyrannical abuse of power and betrayal of their sworn oath to the united states constitution by mr. koskinen and mr. obama will be at-large and their legacy because it is something that goes to the very heart of the rule of law in this republic that so many lying out at arlington national cemetery died to preserve. mr. koskinen would never have allowed an american taxpayer to treat the audit the way that he and other officials had treated this investigation. the congress owes it to the american people and future generations and to our constitution to hold the perpetrators of this tyrannical abuse of power accountable and to make sure that it never happens again. with that, i will yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from florida for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. commissioner, since you are the commissioner i have some tax questions for you. since 1976 every democratic and republican candidate for president has released a personal tax return. releasing tax returns allows voters with important background information of the contributions to his community how he may update his business. and i just would like to confirm a few things that we might know if we had access to the candidate's tax returns. would you also tell us how much a person gives to charity? >> to the extent they took the charitable deduction for various reasons sometimes people don't. >> wouldn't give some indication of a person's assets? >> it wouldn't necessarily tell you a lot about the assets other than they produced a lot of income. >> we could all some conclusions about the amount of the assets. >> there would be no way to know. >> they would be able to see what the deductions were and the benefits they took advantage of. >> if we had a tax return, would it provide information on how a person receives their income? >> you would see the source of income, yes. >> and if we had access to some indication how the person finances his real estate transactions? >> there wouldn't be a picture. >> son as opposed to none. is that correct a lot of the information we would be able to glean from the first couple of pages of the schedule? .. >> a person is not prohibited from releasing their tax return while they are under audit come are they? >> know they may be advised not to but they are not prohibited. >> advised by the irs? >> maybe by the their advisors but not the irs. >> in fact nixon released his tax returns while he was being audited by the irs. is there anything in the law that prohibits them from releasing it during an audit? >> no. >> let me ask another question. would releasing the tax return during the audit in any way impact that pending audit of the return? >> the release itself within. the concern sometimes by taxpayers is when information is public there may be more information that will be discovered or provided. but the release itself. >> we understand that is a concern. does the irs sent a letter to a person informing him that he is being audited by the irs? >> yes. in other words affected tell people with the if you're not hearing from us we'll send you a letter. >> is or any law or regulation that prevents a person from publicly disclosing the letter from the irs that tells them they are being audited? >> there is no restriction by the irs. >> releasing a tax return as we have just provide transparency. it's been reported also in the front page of the washington post that the trump foundation spent more than a quarter of 1,000,000 dollars to settle lawsuits are filed against his business. just a few remaining questions there. is it illegal for the head of a nonprofit to use money from the charity to benefit himself or his business? >> as a general matter not profits are not allowed to use benefits of tax-exempt organization for the purpose. >> is also illegal for nonprofit group to make political gifts such as a trump foundation 25,000 dollars contribution to the florida attorney general's reelection. >> i can't talk about any individual taxpayers activity. the laws clear that a 5o1c3 organization cannot be involved in politics. but again, i would stress that we never talk about any individual's tax returns with a policy. >> commissioner, we should not have to ask you to talk about donald trump's tax return. we should be. we should be free to talk about those because as you've told us there simply no reason that he is not shared them with us. is not been prohibited from sharing them with us and in fact there is no rule that says he cannot at least provide an audit notice so that we can have some small piece of information that might help us. you are right. we cannot learn everything there is to learn about his finances from his tax return. but it sure would be an important start for the american people. i appreciate you being here to clear that up. i yield back the balance of my time. >> the chair recognize the jonah from ohio, mr. jordan for five minutes. >> thank you. mr. -- is the irs still targeting. mr. -- is the irs still targeting conservative groups? >> absolute. >> that is not what the united states court of appeals for the district of columbia said. they just issued a decision on august fifth, 2016, last month. i just want to read from that decision. they said cessation has it never occurred. the irs has admitted to the inspected general, to the district court, and to this court that applications for exemption by some plaintiffs have never, to the statement process. that sounds like processed. that sounds like is still going on to me. >> let me read further. they say it is absurd to suggest that the effect of the irs unlawful conduct was delaying the process of the plaintive application has been eradicated when two of the applications remain pending. sounds like something still going on to me. let me pay her fries. it's absurd to say targeting has stopped when the unlawful conduct continues. again this is not jim jordan saying this, this is not donald trump saying this, this is not the freedom caucusing this. this is the united states court of appeals for the district of columbia decided just six weeks ago. you guys are still up to it aren't you? >> as i wrote in the letter to all of the oversight committees including kneelers, there are three cases out of 145 that have not been processed because they are in litigation on our policy for years has been that if you are in a process and then stop the process, those are three from four or five years ago. they are not new cases. there is no new case. >> these guys there is no new case. >> these guys have been waiting for, five, sometimes six years. >> i figured you would say that. so doesn't carry much weight with me and it didn't and carry any weight with the court. his what the court said to that argument. they said the irs is telling applicants in these cases quote, we have been violating your rights, not processing your applications, you are entitled to have your applications process but if you ask for that processing by way of a lawsuit then you cannot have it. so the court was not buying your argument. they don't care what your internal policies, they are more concerned about people's fundamental liberties people's fundamental liberties and you guys continue to violate them. they go on to say that we would advise the irs that if you haven't ceased to violate the rights of the taxpayer there's no cessation. so if you're still doing it, if you have not stopped doing it then you're still doing it is what the court said. he can't sit there and say you're not still targeting. here's what here's what we keep in mind. >> targeting is a presence that present tense verb. they are improperly's like to four years ago. >> they still don't have their tax-exempt status. >> as i noted once the court did we are processing those applications. >> no. that's not me making the argument, this is not just we for from the other side the conservatives that who want to impeach the irs commissioner per this is the court saying you are still doing it. never forget what happened here. never forget the underlying offense. the irs targeted people for exercising their most fundamental liberty. their right to speak against the policies of their government. they got harassed for doing it. we've heard a lot about due process on the other side. i think you should get every bit of due process you are entitled to. about the due process that all of these people who are harassed for years and three groups are still getting harassed today. here's what happened. happened. >> the irs targeted folks they got caught. at first they lie about it and say it wasn't us. it was the folks from cincinnati. then she takes the fifth. that sort of puts a premium on all the documents and commute occasions indications making sure we get those. that's why we had two subpoenas for that information. you come in to clean up the mess and under your watch documents are destroyed, false statements are made, 422 backup tapes are erased and now the clincher. it's still going on. so i can say we should not be here today you should not have to sit through this. and then why haven't we done this a long time ago. you should've been gone should of been gone a long time ago. when this is the record, losing emails, backup taste destroyed in targeting continues to this day, not jim jordan's word, jordan's word, not freedom caucus words, words from the court of appeals, for goodness sakes that's why this is important and that's why we should move forward with articles that were samiti 15 months ago and make sure that you no longer hold office. >> i yield back. >> we recognize the gentleman from california for five minutes. >> thank you mr. speaker. >> mr. chair commissioner, today how many investigations have you been involved with regarding the events referenced in this impeachment revolution? could you explain your personal involvement in each of these? >> when i started, there were six investigations are ongoing. the house oversight committee, wayne and mean committee, the department of justice, and the the inspector general had investigations going on. >> what were the results of these investigations. >> as earlier noted the results were that the ig noted in its investigation that no one had done anything purposely to impede the congressional investigations. nobody had instructed anybody to do that. the justice department said and i totally agreed mistakes made it was not perfect process by any means. nobody had done anything that in fact raise the level of any activity subject to they basically said nobody did anything to impede the investigation. bipartisan report from from the senate finance committee again had the information they needed they disagreed and there is a minority report on whether it was political motivation or it was just bad management of judgment. the bipartisan report had a series of recommendations. we accepted those and accepted all recommendations of the majority report in the minority report. the permanent subcommittee on investigations closed its report. as the first first one and it basically maintained that there is nothing done that was intentional in terms of material presentation. everybody has agreed that it was a management mistake, it should should not happen again. nobody should be selected for any adverse activities either denial of an application or a wait for time simply because of the name of the organization. this is not political philosophy. this was in fact selecting people only by the name of the organization. everybody has agreed and i agreed when i started. i apologize for anybody who is stuck in the process for more than a year waiting for an answer. the the ways and means committee has not issued a report. the oversight committee did not issue a committee report. there is a staff report issued at the end of 2014. >> in fact, let's talk about the treasury inspector general. could you describe what the working relationship is like between the staff at the irs and the treasury inspector general? are the results of the investigation, buy them generally considered nonbiased and reliable? >> yes. for three years when i was in all and be i chaired the intergovernmental organization of inspectors general. i have been a supporter of ig's and in the private sector i was supportive internal auditors. we have to meet with our staff every month. as i tell our employees the ig and gao don't create problems they raise issues before that we might not otherwise know and it's important to respond positively. we have responded to the ig recommendation. they reviewed and said we have basically implemented all the recommendations. they had additional recommendations and we implemented those as well. >> but the ig has done i think a good job. i knew him when i worked on the hill for the republicans but i don't think he has been political. i think he's done a straightforward job and we have good relationship. >> a major problem stems from the decision to irs employees in west virginia facility to erase the backup tapes that contain some of the those learner e-mails. the inspector general found in its 2015 report that no evidence was uncovered that irs were directed to destroy or hide information from congress, the doj or the treasury inspector general. let me ask, did you make an affirmative order that those tapes be preserved? did you ever make efforts to keep this information from congress? >> i never kept any information from congress. my councilman and councilman and fabric 2014 within a few weeks sent a reminder to the it department making sure they understood that all the media should be preserved. again as i said said when i discovered in 2015 from the ig that those tapes have been erased i said that was a mistake and it should not have happened. as noted i run the organization and if an honest mistake is made on my watch is mine mistake. >> so you made several statements and those tapes should be preserved in? >> i did not make several, it had gone through the system and there is a standing order order 2013. there is a reminder that went out from my counsel to the it department to preserve those reports. we're making a massive effort in production so you would've thought that everybody would've known that we are producing documents as we fast as we could and therefore we should protect them. >> thank you. i yield back. >> the chair thinks a gentlewoman and recognize the gentleman from georgia for five minutes. >> thank you for being here. i think it's interesting that we have a commission of the irs here to give tax advice. i'm glad you have worked with my office to actually help my constituents get tax advice. we had one person was 700 plus thousand people having to take golden tickets at 330 in the morning. i know we've had another one. i would like to see another added we still have correspondence and i would like breakdown on the letter that i shared with you. >> i'm delighted to do that. >> let me go back to a few things. you have i had several conversations over several years when i was a member of the oversight committee. do you believe that in from your a subpoena is a valid form of getting information from someone who is being asked. so if the committee actually subpoenaed the treasurer and the irs to produce documents that's a valid form of getting documents. >> it's really is. >> it should be followed, correct? >> yes. >> in september 2014 ist on this is not required transcript i'll give you answer back. i asked if if the irs have produced all the e-mails from holly -- as required by subpoena the subpoena right here. at the oversight committee. i asked you the same question 5060s earlier and the answer then was no internet when i asked in september 2014 the answer again was no. my question to you today, had those documents been produced to the oversight committee? >> i don't know. we've been working from the start with the committee started prior to prioritize. we had a long hearing in march 2014 in the order to which we would reply to the subpoena. i made it clear that we were prepared to respond to the entire subpoena. they said that's why it would be all the lowest learner emails and we will provide those. we've been working with the committee and working our way through the subpoena in terms of whatever information they would want. >> number two on this thing that is just a schedule. is supposed to be produced on augustaugust , 2013, but it was number two on the list. on the actual -- my question is this, holly is is not in a crash situation. her heart dry was never in doubt. why the delay here? you blaming are you blaming the committee? >> no. the committee has a vast subpoena that they're asking for. some information from 90000 irs employees in at that hearing in march of 2014 we agreed that we would get lowest learner e-mails and then we would respond to the committee staff going forward. >> we had provided holly's emails anything to do with this issue has been provided for the question is have we provided other emails that she may have sent and i don't know the answer to that. >> in your opinion as commissioner do you think that you are in compliance with the subpoena? >> i think we are in compliance with that subpoena in terms of our discussion with the staff. we have not completed. one of those questions is emails from 90,000 employs outside and i have outside and i have explained in 2014 that would take a long time. in our discussion with the committee staff we are not pursuing that. >> we understood that. the four people specifically named are not vast amounts. it was a computer and a hard drive, i know and i know it sounds very frank, you are very good witness and that you pose your words very well that the complement but it's also very frustrating. it sounds very much like you are blaming committee staff in their priorities here. if you come at this point this is the frustration we'll have with this. >> i don't mean to do that and i apologize if there's any indication that i'm trying to blame the step. what i'm saying is we been working with the staff in terms of response to the subpoena to the extent that and like i said we've provided everybody's e-mails regarding the determination that's how the pages have come in and out. i forgot how many hundreds of thousands of emails. to the extent that any time they feel there's additional information we haven't provided we have been providing information. we sent a note everybody said we are done with document production in january 2015. if we haven't provided all of holly's other emails that have nothing to do really with this in the committee staff would like those we will do that. >> as i said before, this is what the before, this is what the american people just do not understand. this ability to work with a subpoena or not. and with that i yield back. >> we think the gentleman or recognize a the gentleman from illinois for five minutes. >> thank you. i'm going to finish up the skittle. i really love skittles because as you see they, orange orange and yellow. red and purple. all the different colors. i may come altogether in a bag, together. all different colors and kind of like a rainbow. and a lot of people on the side of the aisle, we like like that. every now and then, sorry. i'll get a bad skittle. but i don't ban them all because i might just be one. but i don't ban them because their delicious maybe not nutritious but delicious. just that we don't be in our little girls clean, murder and murder and raped human bondage and torture. we shouldn't bend them all. just like we went ban all the skittles because there might be one bad one. this is a nation of freedom of religion and yes even freedom to pay her taxes to the united states. commissioner, i have a few extra bags of skittles. and i'm and i'm going to share them with you and your staff. so that after this reckless and bitter hearing you can get a small enough small amount of sweet candy to improve the rest of your day. now i have a question. is it fair to say that you are an expert on tax law at this point? >> i've never claimed i've been a expert on tax law. >> i know you can't answer questions about specific tax returns. you have made that abundantly clear to my friend and others as we had the hearing. even those statutes everybody in america would love to see them. you can share them. so we can't do a poll and send it to your commissioner and he and he can abide by the pole. there's law. or to answer specific questions about any individual tax activity. so i want to offer a hypothetical and see if we can get your reaction. let's say somebody set up a charitable foundation, let's say somebody solicits millions of dollars for that foundation unless say that individual who set up the foundation use the money from that foundation which is tax exempt by you the irs, it's a tax-exempt tax foundation and he uses to pay off debt incurred by his for-profit company. tax-exempt, charitable, use that use that money to pay off debts incurred. in fact, not only does he do that he uses to pay off legal judgment against his for-profit company, that's a company i make them money for from. hopefully paying your taxes. and i'm using other money that i don't pay as is tax-exempt. for the sake of argument the individual says that he would pay someone $1 million if they hit a hole in one during the tournament of his golf course and after someone hits the hole in one the individual refused to pay. then after court rules that he has to pay, $100,000 would be paid merged mutually agreed by charity as part of that settlement. the individual takes the $100,000 of other people's money, not his money, the court said you have to pay the money individual but he uses it from the foundation to pay that debt. my question to you is given that scenario, is that strictly speaking? what's the term? legal legal to do something like that. is that legal for an individual to use money from a tax exempt account, foundation, charitable account of other people's money to pay off legal obligations incurred five for-profit enterprise. before you answer let me just follow up again. strictly hypothetical. let's say there is a 10,000 dollar portrait of the individual and he is the foundation's money to buy it, put it in one of his for-profit businesses, writing a check out of the charity and the charity used in other people tax-free donation but using the portrait in his for-profit business. so i get a bunch of money i put it in my foundation, we don't pay taxes on it. i go on bid on a portrait of me and then i put it in my business. with that in your opinion be legal within the law and consistent with someone who declares himself a law and order individual? >> harassment i said at the start i came in here to answer questions truthfully and straight forward but i can't, we don't talk about individual cases of of hypotheticals begin to look like individual cases i'm not at liberty to give opinions or judgment. >> but commissioner, commissioner, you do know whether something is legal or not. here's a question. can someone take money from a not-for-profit foundation and pay off a legal settlement, court settlement settlement to pay that debt off? >> can you use tax-exempt money to pay for business purposes? >> as i said before, the laws clear. any tax-exempt organization cannot use its money to benefit anyone closely associated with that organization. but i cannot give you, every case is different. every case has background in information surrounding it. >> commissioner everybody in this new room goes from talking about. all all we want is a straight answer. >> the time for the gentleman has expired. with that tax-exempt money. the time has expired the commissioner can answer if he so chooses. >> i think it someone for anybody to understand if you deal with us your information we go to great lengths to protect. our employees understand every taxpayers information we do not review or and we do not discuss anything about their tax situation with the public. while i understand the interest in this issue, even in the hypothetical sense and be inappropriate for the commissioner anybody else at the irs to respond other than to say that the laws clear as to what 501(c)(3) scan and cannot do. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from south carolina mr. county for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. i want you and i to do something that those of us who serve in government probably ought to do with a little more regularity which is put ourselves in the shoes of the people that we purport to work for. i want you to imagine waking up and you learned that agents of an agency you are ready fear, one of the most feared agencies in all of government, with a lot of control and power, either real or perceived over your life , some agents of that agency are targeting people based on their political ideology. and those are folks and position of leadership. i don't know if you have read lois linder's emails are not, not, but there is a palpable , hostility toward conservatives that comes through in her work e-mails. these are work e-mails. this is not her musing about an op-ed in the washington post. these are work e-mails. demonstrating a tremendous entity towards conservatives. in some of those groups wanted to do nothing more than just educate their fellow citizens about the constitution. so i'm sure you can appreciate the irony of lowes learner punishing people who want to educate their fellow citizens about the constitution and that she comes and hides behind it. to avoid answering questions about her conduct. that is why people are upset. and then you add to that the president of the united states, the person who campaigned as the great uniter, that the same rule should apply to everyone really didn't mean it after all. he pre-judges and investigation while the investigation is pending. so against this backdrop, congress, i'm sure you'll agree has not only the right but frankly an obligation to provide oversight over an agency where that is the primary evidence. we have an obligation to do it. but the efficacy of our investigation depends upon the fullness of the information we are provided and the honesty of the witnesses that come before us. we are of no use if we have incomplete information or those that we seek information from our not truthful. so there is a piece of your testimony that has troubled me and i want us to go through. this is what you said. since the start of this investigation, every e-mail has been preserved. nothing has been lost. nothing has been destroyed. so i want us to go through. what did you mean by the start of the investigation. >> mn since the response of the appropriate congressional response to the ig report in may of 2013 when the six investigation started. the investigation there were for congressional ig and doj. >> so you and i are in agreement that you meant from the very inception of the investigation. >> correct. >> and then your next, this is under oath, each will agree it's material, important, were not, were not asking you about something unrelated to the investigation. it's under oath, the next thing you say is that every e-mail has been preserved. what did you mean by every email. >> i meant by every e-mail that they irs had that they had that i have preserved. >> why didn't you say that? >> if i had knew then what i knew now i would've testified differently. at the time i testified honestly honestly and what i knew and what i have been told. >> nobody regrets more than i do that in some ways this cases been the case that keeps on giving with new information coming up. i wish the information have been out to begin with. >> will commissioner it is always an option to say i don't know. loretta lynch has made a living answering questions with i don't know. it is always an option to say based on what i was told. told. but you were incredibly definitive. you said every email has been preserved and then for those of us who may not have been paying attention, you said nothing has been lost. what did you mean by nothing. >> what i meant at the time is that i have been advised that nothing. but you're exactly right. in retrospect i would've been better advised to say to the best of my knowledge on the basis of what i've been told. which was in fact the basis of my testimony. >> i'm out of time but this is what i would like you to do. this is an important matter. i was one of the folks who wanted this hearing. think this is really important. and you should be able to provide us information. the congress should have all that information. so what i would like for you to do for me is you use the word mistake. that is the lowest level -- there is a mistake, there's reckless disregard for the truth, there is a deliberate indifference and then there is intense. i would be curious what you think the proper punishment is for each level of that -- the other thing i need you to do is to the extent you relied upon other people's counsel are what they told you, i need to know who

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