for being here. >> it seems like a week or two when you think back on how compresed it has been. but a lot of good work came from it. i want to thank those that testified today and those that testified before you, submitted comments and participated in the audience. it has been helpful in us framing what will be the final recommendations we present to the president next week. i am not going to go anything about how it will happen. ron did a good job of that. soon you will be introduced to the other taskforce members. i am chuck ramsey and i am a co-chair along with lori robinson and i think we have made a good team over the past few months. i am currently the police chief in philadelphia. seven years i have served in that capacity. prior to that where was the police chief in washington for almost nine. i started in chicago in 1968. i have been around for a while and seen a lot of changing in policing over the years. very dynamic profession and this is a period of time when we have challenges to meet. we will meet those challenges. as we talk about and discuss things that really assist us in better serving the public today we wanted to put together to panel to lean forward and look at tomorrow and what lies ahead. that is why you are here today. again, thank you very much. and i will now turn it over to lori robinson. >> that can -- thanks so much chuck. it has been a privilege working on this task force particularly with co-chair chuck ramsey. i have been in this field for more than 30 years working with the american bar association about ten years with the department of justice and more recently in acdemia. our time on the task force has been fast but remarkable with the opportunity to hear from so many witnesses bringing such expertise before us. but our intent with this panel was to look ahead. and i would characterize this as a super star group here and that was the intent. i am looking to introducing the panel but before that i want to give the task force members, why by the way have been wonderful to meet with, and what an opportunity, to get the chance in what i call a bunker mentality and it is something i will think about for the rest of my career; this opportunity to work with them. i am starting at the end with roberto and we will move down the line. >> good morning. as lori said, i am the chief of police for tucson arizona. i grew up in the department and have been with them 35 years and chief for the past 6 years. this has been the culmination of my career and having the opportunity to give and receive input at this level from members like yourself and working with this group here. instead of attending 150 different schools, i was able to bring 150 professors to me and sit there and be awed by the information they gave and pick the little pieces here and there i think go toward providing the framework of the best practices. it has been a wonderful experience and excited to get to the work of deliberation today. it will probably be long but i am sure we can come to agreement on a lot of the topics. >> good morning i am brian stevenson and the director of the equal justice initiative. i am an attorney and spent most of my career providing legal services to poor people people convicted of crimes people in prison and people facing conviction. i want to also express my gratitude to the co-chair for the remarkable leadership they provided and to the cop staff and colleagues on the task force. this has been a remarkable and intense but really incredible insightful and educative process and we appreciate those of you who are here to complete the process. i am looking forward to working with the task force members, and the administration, in hoping doing what we can to add to the quality of policing in the country and perhaps encouraging the debate and dialogue necessary to make policing what we hope it should and can be. i want to thank all of those who organized this and express my gratitude to you this morning for being here. >> good morning. i am sean smooth and the director and police council for the police organization of illinois and the chair of police organization. over the last 20 years i have dedicated my life to advocating on rank and file police officers. i am especially excited about the panel today because i came up and as a student of criminal justice at the time that community policing was really starting to filter out in the country. and starting my career working with law enforcement as a practitioner and later on as an advocate i have had the opportunity to see the ebbs and flows of community policing and departments of all sizes as large as chicago and small as a place like granite city illinois. and on the national level. so i am really excited and encouraged and i have to say i would like to express my gratitude to president obama for empaneling this task force. i think it was a cuourageous thing to do and the right thing to do. i am honored to serve with my colleagues on the task force and look forward to closing out the listening session today with a look toward the future and my look is quite hopefully so thank you. >> good morning. i am sue lark. started my career in law enforcement 35 yearss ago as a deputy sheriff working patrol. 35 years flew by. the last seven years i was the elected sheriff in king county which is the area around seattle. i never in my wildest dreams thought i would have an opportunity like this. i think anybody having being able to be part of this panel would say this is amazing. we have the greatest minds in this profession coming together. anyone who says the federal government works slow not on this task force. it has been a miracle and such a privilege to be part of the movement and like sean i am very optimistic about the future. we are at a cross road with good people, good will and a lot of great ideas and i am looking forward to putting it together. thank you. >> good morning, everyone. i am tracy near and i have been for the last 20 or years a legal academic first at the university of chicago law school and now at yale. my research focuses on criminal law policy and procedure and undering undering -- understanding the dynamics of violent crime in urban areas. i have been focused on policing and justice and this work we have been doing over the last six weeks has been extremally gratifying professionally for me but also an amazing opportunity to hear from experts like you but also voices from the community and people who have lost their children and struging every day trying to deal with issue of crime in their community and how to best come up with a strategy to have policing and law enforcement be accountable for them. i am glad we are ending with a palth elegy bluesserer-- panel on policing for the future because it is my hope the report is a launching pad for change. >> good morning. i am brittany. and 200 days ago today you would never convince me i would have spent the last six months standing on streets, very close to my childhood home standing up for justice, standing up for some of the 20,000 young people that i serve in my full-time job as executive director of teach for america in st. louis. and standing up for young men and women who look like my brother and myself and trying to create change from tragedy. so this is not the only work that is going on in that realm but i am deeply thankful to be a part of this step. i never knew as an educator i would know this much about policing. and i am thankful to have had the opportunity to help be a voice for young people in this process. so i am hopeful but feeling urgent about the work that is ahead. and i thank you all for joining us. >> good morning. new york city and new york state combines social services and community organizing to work with our 16,000 members to advance mostly a public policy at the city, state and national level. as on organization we are member of cpr -- communities united for police reform. a campaign that started in new york city to challenge the stop and frisk program and the youth project at the road is currently in the final stages of our partnership with the public science project where we are working with about a dozen youth researchers to study the impacts of the stop question and frisk program on the impact of 18-24 year olds. thank you for being here >> good morning and welcome. i am cedrick alexander and i am the current public safety director in decab, georgia and serve as the vice president of noble. my career started in 1977 in florida actually. tallahassee, orlando and in dade county where i left i think about 1992 and decided to go back to school and become a clinical psychologist and i am still trying to determine if that was a good idea or not. but nevertheless that training has helped me a great deal in moving through this progression and helping the profession change, too. but with that being said, i think over the last 35 years and i remember back in 1980 and many of you may remember the riots during that time. those riots actually grew out of the whole lot of years of distrust and quite frankly police brutality that had been occurring throughout that community for a long period of time. the reaction of that community after the loss of a life in the hands of the police. they have done a great job trying to change the trojectory and relationships that still exist in that community today. there is plenty of opportunity here i think for us to continue to progress the field. as i often hear ron davis say and who has been brilliant for leading us through this. i would like to say thank you and look forward to the dialogue. >> thank you. let me turn bak let me turn ba do so. and with that madam co-chair we are prepare today start. >> in introducing the panel i am going to make brief induction introductions. the full bio's for the witnesses are on the website. these are very distinguished and accomplished individuals and unfortunately we don't have time to go into their full backgrounds. starting off with dr. philip garth. welcome and look forward to cower your comments. >> thank you co-chair and to the task force and those working behind their scenes. it is my honor to be here and particularly on this panel of distinguished individuals. my work as a research and president of the center for policing equitty has sought to bridge gaps for the citizens and law enforcement bridge daily. i want to talk about stronger evidence base in policing and using that to ensure criminal justice particularly in the area of race. social science can set the table for forces to come together and move toward the future. so as a scientist both in my full time job and spare time it bothers me no end where there is an important question that lacks an answer and i have never been more bothered by that tendency than i was late one night in september of 2008. as the son of a reference librarian i am good at finding things. at least i thought i was. i started at 10 a clock and ten and a half hours later i had to take a break. i had not find anything but the research staff had not either and i called my mom and she could not find anything. as the task force understand that is because there is no national data on police use of force or on police stops or police behavior in general. and what arrested me or stopped me in that moment was not just the embarrassing lack of data on something so fundamental on what police offericers do. but the data is part of human behavior and something we know more about than anything else. i want to talk to you about flee things we would be considering differently if we took the social science insights seriously. first, social science has revealed for quite some time we engage with others to the degree that they make us feel about ourselves much more than the degree we feel about them. in close relationships you are likely to make a commitment to a partner because they make you feel good about you than because you are attracted to them. in race and social justice, the work of jennifer richardson and myself and others shows that concerns with how you might appear in an interracial act action is more important than any level of prejudice and what that means if we take it seriously in the domain of policing is we would not put emphasis on how we treat the community but the preception for law enforcement is fundamental. and attitudes predict about 10% of behavior at best it has been found. that includes racial behaviors. and that means that if we were to neutralize all of the prejudice, implicit or explicit we would only get rid of about 10% of behavior that is discrimination at best. and that leads me to the third insight which is situations are often more powerful predictors of behavior than character. if we take those insights seriously, it means in addition to focusing on training we would focus on the policies and understanding what policies lead to chronic situations making people vulnerable to their own bias and stereotypes. our goal is to take this sear jazz seariously and the suckcess of the model is what led me here. we are the first to cover police stops and we cover 25% of the nation for those committed to doing this. law enforcement executives came together saying we need this and want to do it in the best scientific way and came to the scientist to ask for help. i would ask the task force to do three things. i would ask the task force to encourage federal funding to keep up the statistics. and second i would ask them to encourage federal steakholders to have more opportunities for law enforcement and communities to learn from social science as the evidence base is only growing. and third, i would ask the task force to expand technical assistance to law enforcement groups that want to benefit from this but lack the ability to follow through. we never take money but with approached by departments that can not even afford to task a lieutenant with being a project liason. i began by saying as a scientist an important question without answer angrys me. i don't believe social science is the answer but i believe it will set the table to find what the answers are. thank you for your time >> our next witness is kim mcdonald who is the sheriff for la county. welcome. >> thank you very much. i am very honored to be here today. commissioner ramsey professor robinson and other panel members thank you for allowing me to address you. i was sworn in as the 32 sheriff nearly three months ago. i took command of a law enforcement agency facing challenges and one that has flown below the radar and not acknowledged from a their cutting-edge work and expertise. so i speak as the new sheriff who pushes for change and someone who is proud of the enforcement i lead. we are the largest sheriff's department in the country and second largest policingimation nation. we span a population of 10 million people and police 42 of la's cities and protect the largest state's court systemism today i want to focus on what managing a complex law enforce. organization as well as a large jail system taught about about the challenges and opportunities facing polices. we clearly need more resources and support we are equally in need of fresh thinking and strategy that can enable us to rethink the job of policing and learn from here other. we provide housing for 27,000 inmates and our inmates include rival gang members of vary security levels. there has been unacceptable inmate abuse and recidivism rates are too high. many need to be separated from society but others are there because the society left them behind. while i have seen the challenges i have seen how far we have come. we have education programs that enabled over 300 inmates to secure high school diplomas last year. and we are creating drug assistance programs for homeless. this is working in spite of the environment we work in not because of it. we cannot get there alone. we need federal help including support for correctional treatment centers rather than jails where we warehouse offenders. we need to address the mental health concerns of those in our charge and resource toes expand education, vocational training and reentry planning that can chart a better future for those returning for the community. and we are running what is the largest mental health facility in the nation. we have 3500 inmates who need mental health. we are ill equipped to address the challenges of this population in patrol. patrol personal lack mental health training and we have lack of med teams and community supports to help the deputies de-escalate the contract. we need crisis intervention training so the deputies know how to respond to the mental ill. we need to create a response to those in crisis and strategy that focus on alternatives to incarceration. and we need to focus on the next generation and those exposed to violence and trauma. the young person may not have been physically struck we know their brains are permanently damaged by the exposure to the violence. your responsibility doesn't end with the yellow tape is down. violent crime has many vict mudsms and we must do what we can to support them. law enforcement must be trained on how to interact with young people in crisis and those who are trauma impacted. we need to taylor response to the age and characteristics of the individual and support an environment in which children are learn, develop and thrive and move away from approaches that push kids out of school. government derives the power from the consent of the governed it was written and whatever authority we have is granted to us and derived from our community. community oriented policing accept something done on the side. we must police and not just in the communities we serve. police officers don't like asking for help but we must acknowledge we need help. i am here to thank you for your work, wisdom and your help and i welcome any questions at the end you may have. thank you for this opportunity. >> thank you so much sheriff. dr. daniel nagan is our next guest. >> let me indicate how gratified i was to receive this invitation to be on this panel. it was said it is better to prevent crimes than punish them. i co-authored an essay titled reinventing american policing a six point blue print for the 2 21st century. this blue print aims to advance another important objective of policing. maintenance of high levels of credibility in the communities they are sworn to proteth. both objectives form the bed rock of a democratic society. the policy institutionalized many characteristics of the law enforcement system. the function of arrest became important for performance. things like broken windows came to be applied in ways police new best. zero tolerance and the arrest for the simplest crime. we require important changes in the functions and values of law enforce. the blue point is grounded in decades of return and two principles. crimes averted and not arrest made should be the primary metric for judging police success to prevent crime and disorder. citizen's reaction matter. citizen's response to the police and tactics for preventing crime matter independent of police effectiveness. principle one follows from it is better to prevent crimes than punish. punishment is costly to all involved. society who must pay for it the individual who has to live it and the police whose time is diverted. arrest plays a role in crime prevention, arrest shows failure prevention. if a crime is prevented in the first place so is arrest and the ensuing cost. principle one doesn't say arrest should be stopped. bringing the perp trait to justice is important. over the past three decades, a steady accumulation of evidence suggests that pro-active prevention programs are more affective than anything. the activities focus efforts on people, places times and situations that are high risk of offending. proactive policing stands in sharp contrast to reactive approaches in that it try toes address the problems before they -- tries to -- get to further crimes through a variety of strategy that don't emphasis arrest. in the first principle we suggest greater emphasis on deployment strategy and arrest-based strategy. principle two emphasis that police and democracies are responsible for preventing crime and maintaining creditability with all segments of the citizen citizens. this means the reaction of the sitcitizen citizens to the police is important to view their progress. we treat trust and confidence as important in its own right because the overriding objective of policing should be to create a safe democratic society not a safe police state. in emphasising the importance of citizen trust in the police we are aware the encounter may be hostile to no fault of the police officer. it may include people who committed or are in the process of committing serious crime and may stand as a danger to the police officer. the person responsible for the hostile action doesn't give up the right as a citizen even if the legal behavior is set for arrest or legal police response. we are aware of the difficulty of what must be dean done to achieve these. preventing crime ration bringing those to justice and maintaining creditability and just with the police are each significant in their own right and also highly dependented upon one another. recognition of the difficulty of what must be done to advance them shouldn't be used to dismiss their dispute. in my written testimony that you have before you i summarized the six items but let me tell you the first is prioritize crime prevention over arrest, then creating systems for monitoring citizen reaction the police and reporting it back to the public and line officers and the other bullet items elaborate on upon innovation in training organizational attendance and management items in the national research infrastructure on policing to advance these goals. thank you for your attention >> thank you so much. as ron davis noted we have had over 150 witnesses at our listening sessions. but i think our next witness has come the furtherirth farthurtherest. you are coming from being a professor of england. >> i hate to say i am a professor of maryland as well. and why dr. goth is right ration we don't know house education and workforce committee people were killed by the police in 2013 the estimates rage from 461 on the low side and over a 1,000 com compiled from news reading papers. and state of whales the number of people killed by the police was zero. thousands of arms situations when armed police responded and not one person was killed. this is a comparison crying out for an explanation and maybe it doesn't have the level of conclusion i will suggest but i think it is inescapable there is a massive difference governoring the police in england and whales and governing the united states. i think we have to have a conversation at the constitutional level that puts training and other options but tarts with the fundamental policy difference in terms of deadly force. the policy in the uk is similar at law to the policy into the united states which is essential you can kill in defense of life. but the ride along with that policy in england and whales is essential that if you are killing somebody for offense that they are not willing to be arrested for that is essential trivial than you are doing the wrong thing. and you put yourself in a position where you had no choice and that is not allowed in the uk. neither is the idea of continuing a confrontation that might be necessary to arrest someone. so de-escalation and proportional proportional proportionality are key. so we would test the hypothesis of what done in the uk. at the federal level i would propose executive orders and the first is for the employees to dealt the english standards in shooting which is more restrictive than the current defense of life. i think the president should create a national college of policing which provides a certification through a three-month course of anyone serving as a police chief of a certified police force in the united states. and third the president would have the college to issue standards compiled from the 50 state boards. there are not 50 of them yet. and force that the federal government establish or register people who have been dismissed from federal law enforcement agencies which is accessible to anyone screening people for employment in police agencies at federal, state and local level. for the state i think they should adopt an inspector general of police who until recently in england had the ability to certify police agencies so they would lose the national funding and certification is something i think the states could require and they could require chiefs of police of agencies that are creatures of the state, including law and local government, the chiefs would have to meet certification if there wasn't one made available by the national government there would be other certification and the standards like the deadly force standard would be part of the post-board authority. in england and whiles we have a state-wide independent police complaint commission that gets around the issues of the local commissions and the states could have their own dismissed officers and contribute to the federal register. and most radically it is important that a lot of killings of citizens by police come from small agencies and i think we need to go with a minimum of a hundred employees for each police agency so you can have adequate standards for vetting, train training, certifying and disciplining them. in new york city they used to kill 80 people a year and now it is less than 10. that doesn't happen with small agencies changing like in a big agencies where you have the training and super vision. i have similar recommendations for local agencies. but i thank you for your consideration in the ways that action could be taken now that could have a big impact in saving the lives of young people in the united states in unnecessary tragic all be it possibly illegal con frontations with the police. thank you. >> thank you so much, dr. sherman. our final witness is president jeremy thomas of the criminal college in new york city. >> thank you. thank you very much for the welcome co-chair ramsey and robin robin -- robinson. i am delighted to appear and be on the panel with my colleagues. i have one thank you and three recommendations. the thank you is to offer thank toes the -- thanks to the department of justice for the opportunity provided by a grand to john jay college leading a grope of yale, ucla and the urban institute to launch the national institute for building community trust and justice. if we are looking forward this is one of most important undertakings of the justice department. perhaps some of my colleagues here i want to express our appreciation. we had our first meeting of the advisory board and it was exciting sobering and humbling to think forward. i thank the agencies for this initiative and we hope to learn a lot from the five spots to be sleeked selected and named in the national undertaking we will provide. and phil golf is also a partner there. recommendation one is education matters and that might not surprise you coming from me. and task forces named by other presidents long ago after similar times of urban strife and concern about the role of policing all recommend that it is important to have an educated profession of people who carry out the work of following out our laws. this was then a radical idea a college educated police officer would be a bet officer. we need to provide better opportunity for veterans. this is a good career and we need investment in police officers. and i would eco what dr. sherman said and the founder of the police foundation also referenced this and that is the need for national cohesion. a way of thinking about this as a nationally important protection. there is little national attention. the cops office isn't thinking about standards, research and developing research. it was proposed a police commission and the closest we have is the fbi academy and that is not the same thing as a way to build the leadership of this profession. universities can make a difference to develop that sort of capability. my second recommendation will not surprise you having been the director of justice serving under assistant attorney general robinson and leo. i am a strong believer in research and eco what my fellow panelist said. the amount of research we funded under the '94 crime acting was historic but fit full when we think what we could have known if he had invested more. if we were like any other research institute and invest in the understanding of the importance relationship between government and citizen it is really sobering. so of course we should invest more in research. we learned a lot in those days. but i think what this panel would recommend is that today's research agenda should be broader and different and that is funded by the '94 crime act. we need an empirical understanding of interaction between the police and public. i have learned a lot from tracy research and professor sherman first brought this to my attention when maryland did the what works in crime prevention study. we don't understand the interaction of the law enforcement and police. that is the goal for the next generation. let me focus on the third recommendation i highlight in my prepared statement. the title of the panel is the future of community policing. this is the con conceptual framework taking place. three aspirations are there. one is embracing crime prevention. we have talked about that and have great successs in reducing crime in the country. through problem solving as the principle method. those pillars are strong. but the third pillar which is partnerships of the community, has gotten less attention, it is underdeveloped and in some ways we have lost ground while the others gained ground. we need to think about strengthening that pillar. how do we do that? we focus on legitmacy and justice. and the testimony, besides bill who was sworn in as the police commission for the secondtsecond. he said he is back because even though crime has been reduced people in communities of color in particularly are angry at the police. how can this be when we have done well? how can there be such dissatisfaction? we talked about the stop and frisk and increase in misdemeanors but this is deeper than that. in addition to procedure justice and legite is to image imagine the process of bringing people together and getting to the deep distrust between the police and the communities of color that existed for a long time. i will end with a quote from my colleague david kennedy who said when there is one of these incidents we have seen all too often of a young, unarmed african-american man killed by the police maybe justifiable and maybe not, white america talks about the incident. what does the grand jury do. and the black community talks about the history. it the history that matters. we have to bring that into the conversation constructively. that is the imperative of the day. >> we will turn now to questions from our panel. i will be calling on people in the order in which they indicated they wanted to raise questions. i am starting with brittany followed by sue. >> thank you so much for your testimony. i have two questions. the first is for dr. nagen. i am a pastor's kid and taught wherever your treasure is stored that is where your heart is. and translated to the work i do in operations and systems whatever we measure that is what we value. my question is around this idea of measuring crime prevention. i want to know how we can viablely measure crime prevention in a way that doesn't support predatory and broken window and policing issues that led to stop and frisk and aggressive traffic stops i see in st. louis county and instead measures that increase policing guardian and measurement. >> with regard to the issue of measuring preprevention, i acknowledge as a research those of you who know the research i do, it is hard to do. but headway can be made on it. it starts with the research larry sherman begun on. if you target places and people at high risk of offending you can see whether the efforts to reduce crime in those lotions was effective. targeted strategy allows you to do that. with regard to the second part of the questions using tactics that don't emphasis arrest. arrest is an inevitable part of police but don't emphasis it. here again, these kinds of proactive strategy that my co-author summarized on a nice website at george mason university they involve problem solving, changes in the physical environment with lighting or bringing in third parties in like landlords to try to mitigate the places that generate crime and by doing that and avoiding crime and also avoiding having to make arrest because there is no crime and do not emphasis policing which there are large numbers of arrest made for minor crimes. >> thank you. and my second question is for professor sherman. really interested in your written testimony recommendation number ten talking about an ex executive order on deadly force and that executive order should focus on por portionality of the force used and emphasis on de-escalation before force is a choice that is made. i am wondering if you discuss that a bit more and if that executive order were in existence what would that mean in cases like the killing of rice in cleveland where the shooting occurred two seconds after the officer arrived. >> this idea -- and i am very glad you gave me a chance to give examples -- is very important. it goes back to mayor bradley in los angeles discussing the report on higher education for police in 1979 right after woman named yula love was killed by the police because she had not paid her gas bill and with when the gas man came to turn the gas off she took a shovel and told him to leave. he wouldn't and she whacked him on the arm with a shovel and when she called the police and they pulled up and she appeared with a knife, they pointed guns at her saying drop the knife, she didn't so they shot and killed her. that is an example of an argument that can be made that it was a threat to life but it was unnecessary because the police could have used other tactics to de-escalate the situation. it was disproportion to the underlying offense which was misdemeanor assault and certainly not worthy of a pre-trial death penalty. more importantly perhaps because there are situations where offenders kill people and the police in london encountered someone who had just beheaded an 80-year-old woman with a machette and they managed to take that man into custody alive. it would be difficult for the police in the united states to do that. but the police were under this infrastructure i am talking about that make as huge difference in the letter of the policies but in the spirit with which they are implemented and the expectations from the first day of training that police officers have in the uk that their job is to keep the people alive no matter who they are. >> sue, followed by cedrick alexander. >> my question is for professor sherman as well. i was tantalized by hearing the written testimony about putting limits on the police department. lower limits as opposed to upper limits. and one of the things that is protected in the country is local independence and control. and we have had conversations amongst colleagues about the concept of multiple agencies and the independents and it seems that going to larger agencies moves us away from a close relationship with the community that you seem to get with a small department. it seems that has the department gets larger there is more anonym anonymity thaofficers have and creates a distance. i wonder if you can talk about how in the uk you maintain or don't maintain that community organization. >> my first jobs as the new york city police department was to evaluate the neighbor police program which is what is done in police forces in the uk. and when you take it down to the neighborhood level it is sort of hike the adage of former speaker of the house and that is all politics and policing is local. if you organize the policing to maximize face to face interaction between the police responsible for an area and the citizens they are serving you don't need a small agency to do that. you will get more etiquette in providing that if you have a larger organization looking at the fairness of distribution for example. so the efforts in the uk since the last effort like this which was a royal commission over scandals of police in smaller departments getting too close to the community leaders, not just corruption but also preference and bias and it was before britain was 15% black and minority. it was like it was in ferguson before. if you have larger entities like st. louis for example then there is,i think, more checks and balances. and the point i want to make about localism -- two points. one is the proliferation of tiny police agencies is not something we always had. it is mostly since world war ii we had the chance of putting small police officers departments all over pennsylvania. if you want to cut taxes you merge police department and have a single call center. that is one of the easiest way of saving money and that might change the game rather than saying the locals have the power and we cannot touch it. it is a decision for 50 state legislatures to make because they create cities. it is creature of the state. they have politics to worry about of course. but if one state or two states want to be bold enough to take the vision to cut taxes and improve the equity in policing by having large police department apartments the whole country will benefit. >> how does the local community exercise control over their policing? >> i think there is a wonderful series of institutions that we see in england and whales including a police complaint division that is looking at these things and the latest institutions i think we have to say the jury is still out on is electing police and crime commissioners for 42-43 areas. there is a counter part of crime commissioners in all iv other forces. and those elections were introduced out of cycle and only had a 15% turnout so they are controversial. but they replaced a board of 18 locally elected city and council county members who were the board of directors for the police department. so you have the democracy under any model you want to look ought throughout british history. even before 2012 when we changed to the elected crime officials. the state can look at this and if they want to create a more cost effective form of policing that i think will have more checks and balancing. ... >> >> me but i would say you are the practitioner who takes this research like others but we're not getting the information. so how do we take this research the you come up with and make it applicable and come alive? how do we make that transition from academia to where it will evolve jurors something has to have been quickly? i would like to get your thoughts were insights into that. >> thinking for that question. i will answer into enough parts. first of all, eccrine the words the national initiative chooses intervention in research and is also the house function of the national initiative is to have a place where people are looking for research were the best practices or the emerging trends in the emerging evidence base can say what do we know? so that is a good step to be translated but it is quite difficult but it is nominally journals that seven people read but they do not develop social skills of. [laughter] so it isn't just that we talk to each other we don't even talk to each other. [laughter] there is a profound need to establish regular runs of communication not just between law-enforcement and researchers but communities and researchers. there needs to be across communication on the issues. but we saw we head community groups and researchers to have a language for this is all different languages trying to talk about the same thing. he is a philosopher so forgive us if you want to be a philosopher go where philosophers go. and then to translate to be in the same plays. with a complex there is no long-term process for that spinning think here for that opportunity i think there is tremendous value to that. we need not just to focus on just the numbers because if we ask for numbers we will get them but a man not be what we want in the long term we need to focus on the outcome rather than output and the challenge dash for us sirhan is to take the datasets to make it applicable and how to use it in the way we get the greatest value and also from the justice perspective what does that mean in the communities? going back to evidence based strategies to focus on best practices with a forum to do that by looking in the absence mean one of data as the sole criteria. what are the other options? i would suggest community surveys to determine how the community feels about police and safety so it is a complex conversations and to have certainly we welcome that data but to put it into context without having it drives slowly the way we do business. >> an excellent question. one is the most recently appointed director with translation chronology. and universities that have picked up on that challenge in particular from george mason university with the evidence of crime policy there is quite remarkable ways of communicating academic research for this practice but it needs to go beyond that in my written testimony emphasized echoes some things we have heard we need a much larger national infrastructure not unlike at the national institutes of health where they do research but in important part of research that is the implication for medical practice. and something comparable here as well. to pick up on the etf of community service with the difficulties of larger organizations with my testimony to talk about collecting systematic data and using it with the evaluation the performance evaluation so there is one thing you we could do in this regard with the police departments of small towns of a larger organization you bestow collect information systematically of the reactions of the committee and if they are satisfied. >> i should have said actually just about every police force does do that we do in annual survey so they can pick up the fact that alarm part of the country the trust and confidence of police is an extraordinarily low levels that corresponds to the potential acts of tort -- terrorism organized you don't get that knowledge if you break up policing into little bits that lacked a'' new strategy to think probably of big population centers but another answer to dr. alexander's question about getting research by practice is what we have been doing it cambridge for almost 20 years now but especially in recent years with the policies we have surgeons like other people conducting experiments and publishing sometimes co-authors of academics we enjoy the enthusiasm to discover new things and similar graduates in 2010 found evidence based professionals of members including 500 in new zealand and australia there is huge interest where we spend a fair amount of time also latin america over there is a huge interest in the policing of that continent also asia and india and the elite place they're asking to have this kind of help from universities is the united states. >> this is one of my favorite topics let me see if i can add to my colleague said but first fundamental the independent sources of information about policing so this will piggyback on your question there is a love of history in the room if you remember their early seventies when federal officials decide to create the first victimization survey we know so much about crime because we ask of presidents with their experience with crime so that independent source of information benefit 80 nervously over the years we needed an independent survey of experience item include just the police i am not as concerned as mass incarceration as a with the police because of racial issues but it is not a popularity poll but this is the justice survey this is the big investment there has to be the way the police ask the question how my doing. things to talk about the importance of this paper that i wrote of national coherence a set of national expectations to go to any police department as to go to any hospital you expect a surgeon to know the best evidence to conduct a medical procedure. that is a long time of building a body of evidence. the best practice. along with the notion of what develops leaders that the policing college. with the other important point it is building a capacity and appetite to do their own research to be daybed driven for the department gore university. so the institution of a teaching hospital also learning emergency groups so we have blended the two ways one is highly scholarly it is not a dissemination model but a collaborative model. so infrastructure becomes very important we need operations research and to help these agencies recognize the importance to develop what the professor stone and i call innovation meant the really is experimenting in the weasel into criticism. >> thank you. >> all presentations were very informative. my first question is a sheriff, i heard you talk about corrections with mental health training -- trading for control officers and dr. i heard you talk about your partnership so there is elements with the entire criminal justice system that need to get involved in the reform movement and as we shared recommendations with the group said it is helping us rehab often said we cannot progress our way out of these problems but we have to work at a broader and a grander scale and then tobago far outside the traditional police rome. of the day to hear your thoughts how we transition from thought to action on a broader scale. >> rabil kick that of looking of the business we are in we need to look nontraditional the way we have been doing it gets us the results of today. looking at kids of the earliest age from the time you are boring through the third grade through the rest of your life you learn to read and there is nothing more impact:success or failure by that piece. so kids to start to fall offtrack queasy the outcome of alcohol and drugs and gangs and dysfunctional behavior but those that are illiterate or functionally illiterate the connection is unmistakable so we need to focus on what is viewed as policing solutions in the nurturing along people -- the young people and at the back and rebuild their coming back out to society's a wateree doing for them to get back out in a different fashion to set them up for a greater level of success and they would otherwise have? many tillich and options that were not on the table previously and this is where the evaluation and analysis where rich trying to get at the end of the day or how to read your job a little better at this point? >> this is building on the observation of incarceration policies. stepping back from the policing question it is important to recognize the entire system has changed to enormously over the last 40 years we were privileged to be members of the national academy of sciences panel with the consequences of high rates of incarceration wheelchair dash and there is a time in the nation's history we have used prison as a response to crime more than in the other time by a factor of five for a tenfold. i spend a lot of time with 20 roles these days 15,000 and ask them questions was a like growing up? they're more likely to have a parent in prison, more likely to have somebody under supervision in their family and more likely and high-school to have been at the receiving end of the more punitive disciplinary system in the schools so the young people have a very different personal experience with the justice system. such as think a lot paul police interact with the rest of it they have never been out of their making that it is a much bigger footprint and the lives of people especially in communities of color. the panel recommended significant reduction in that would be tough but that is the reality and the testimony shows an african-american high-school dropout today spends the least one year in prison. so we need to recognize some things have changed because of the most direct contact some have a burden that they did not make and it is unfortunate. >> if i could just point out the british police are of major player in management at the front end and the back end of the system and they have succeeded in recent years somewhere between 40 and 50% of those received a criminal conviction but there is no further prosecution and a chance to go to prison and they have used a variety of programs and one that has been tested with the university of maryland in the budget director has just completed a randomized trial if he could come up with the free prosecution probation program the day they are vested rather than wait nine months waiting it to go to court with delays there may be a major opportunity to keep the offenders under the watchful eye of the liberal police officers to know where they are with the recent experiment shows they can get bigger crime reduction by more contact with the vendors unnecessarily to make an arrest but to make the connection so there is the essence they have trouble and that is something that is reinforced but sadly not for the short-term incarceration of less than a year but many could be diverted to the french and the innovation is directed was british policing not just a matter to you put them in jail but to keep them out which is the fundamental goal which is prevention of the crime and that taking satisfaction he shouldn't brag about the number of people that you our best but five years ago i published the paper with imprisonment and crime that the conclusion was from the imprisonment panel neither effective nor efficient way that there is a lot of evidence you can prevent crime from happening in the first place after publishing that i was getting pushed back if you start emphasizing policing will pay start arresting to the criminal justice system? if you'd look at the data with the letters will of million of rest the less than 20 percent are for felonies but one game that has happened there is an increase of jail population was there we are of the wind at being in prison than the being in jails that we need to use policing methods is to prevent crime so there is no rest still make the second question in a skier to torrid looking at the comparison between great britain in the united states the numbers are fascinating in there is better research we need to do but when you talk about the incident of the be heading taking an individual into custody making the remark it may not have been so much in america pushed back a little because within my own agency quite often we take people into custody without using deadly force as happens so we don't care about that because it does not satisfy the american media is appetite for violence. and that is my question would you feel about the difference of what you see? you were in a unique position for that system is there the same fascination that if it bleeds it leads and that is what you see the american media to affect the for trail? >> i think the size of the audience for newspapers in britain and financial success actually makes them the most beryl barbaric media to be found in english speaking language in your honor is. anything i could i see by british police is completely off-limits for reporting in british newspapers one picked up by my testimony today but not the others to renounce the police campaign but the point of how there are many police agencies like tucson where they would be outstanding handling of mentally ill people which is the one that be headed that may be but there is relatively no hope good news like that would be reported in to introduce the bid like bandages so they could have their own evidence that they could save a life of somebody they just shot dead because it believes it needs could be no way technology is brought together to make it clear police and not just trying to kill people but save lives and may be a more concerted campaign to get the word out in the places that it does happen. like you could accuse me which would be less likely in the u.s. is a cross the agency's and if we drill down the numbers to see whether the rates of killings of citizens per officer are higher 75% to render 25 officers said we will have even more evidence to support the idea of having bigger police agencies to deal with mentally ill people as one of the most complicated and raise surgery is nothing i have enormous respect for anyone who has to do that. because it is so complicated i went to see a national a coherent strategy to certify a highly skilled people who can do the work even if only us specialist team to have pride and the responding officers to keep things under control while the skilled people can take that person into custody. >> i have two questions the first time lowe's start directing that the sheriff, i was really interested did your testimony in the challenges of the growing population in the need for more dynamic service is. and i would like to ask you what role your deputies play with pretrial? do they provided sigh opinions or testimony about their experience with incarcerated population in? my guess is that is not the norm. is changing the role of the those who have that knowledge with us a progress general lack thereof and though this seems a free have this population that we will do something and that is that currently the model. so whether your folks play that role. but the second question except that i am very impressed and attracted to the notion of crime prevention but endymion's targeting end engagement that it decreases the trust and legitimacy. to deal with poverty with a large set of issues and how we reconcile that fear that we have so did i committed a crime that way justify a rest. >> so relative to the l.a. county jail so of those numbers rework very hard with education as best we can with the package moving forward with a heavy focus on education and mental health peace during the best we can to provide whatever it is weekend to put them in a better position but 20 percent of the population is something we need to do very aggressively to work with the court's so they can triage the people as a default mechanism to focus on treatment in the community. the focus on best practices to share success stories and we want to be a partner with others in the custody environment the challenge is are significant. we have a lot of work to do to work with others natalie show what works and what doesn't work as well. >> in individual cases with the prosecutor nor the judge deal of the policy with that? >> not for say to ensure that we are in line with the individual basis people come in from the community with specialties who work with the incarcerated folks to provide a variety of services so that they could say based on the interaction but to have a coherent program to address that issue we have work to do as well. >> mr. stevenson to be responsible among others to talk about history that was the first principle to prevent crime. what is the role of the exercise of police powers? in part a research question in to what extent is the exercise that there is the prevention of that model? there has been a fair amount of research with hotspots policing ways in a strategic away with crime reduction. i don't shy away from the acknowledging they are authorized and deputized without consent to use those powers for safety. but it is important for the country to say what are the cost of that exercise that you could say there are bad things happening to somehow be balanced against day benefit to know what is the cost of legitimacy or with people to cooperate? hagel this feeds into the movement so to have an understanding of some of the cost of the legitimate exercise for crime prevention but then one of the things that come said of the national academy it is imperative to think give sacramental sanctions. if you put somebody away for a long time. to say retribution is legitimate but we need to orchestrate and limit the exercise of state power. so the director said that the al said with public safety and a trust at the same time they are independent and objective as we hold for the police we don't have measures of trust but with public safety benefits we don't know how much they contribute but my sense is we could do more to get increased trust with fewer of rest in shorter sentences to use those resources that roberto was talking about it much more productive ways. this failure of imagination. to say we expect this of our enforcement agencies. deprivation people whose show up for safety officers. all of the public servants could be held to the same expectation to provide safety to promote trust and confidence at the same time. >> the second issue that you raise is in that essay with three important functions of the police prevention, of bringing perpetrators to maintain a community trust. those under each and important in their own right. and to do that we recognize there may be trade-offs but they are both important and specifically that one objective does not trumps the heather but they have to be balanced every resisted emphasizing too much if there is too much community trust police could be more effective in crime prevention in -- prevention. but tucson at that point decide we did down one to privilege one objective over the heather so people would have to deal with the trade-offs that the mess made to balance their success better each very important. >> of i could just dove tail off of that, if you don't have of metric then i think there is our real danger of that. with the quality of life to promote quality policing there is no metric for that and it can become irresistible. so talking about procedural justice of there is no metric then there is no point to become a perverse incentives. >> i put myself is the key you a long time ago but i did not want to ask it as professor sherman but of you cover a share if -- sheriff because a lot of what you have recommended is what we have heard is the idea that we find it intriguing. but my concern is the push back to recommend something like that. and my sense is they tend to be small and directly by responsible to the electorate. could you speak to this idea what types of arguments you think your constituency would respond to to accept that type of a recommendation? >> i do think it is very intriguing with further examination licking in the teen thousand police agencies it is hard to have everybody in line with us practices with that many varieties and this scheerer numbers to various organizations. i would want to look at them much more detailed look if it is positive for negative and we see that on different fronts the combining of different agencies and no sir is pushed back with their own police department that has them perpetuated. it is hard to argue with the efficiency argument but with the ability to maintain a standard across the nation but certainly the push back is significant for a local jurisdiction to have al lovell of independence that they believe will do a better job to provide police services than a larger agency might. it is certainly worthy of for their conversation but there is of some of our disparate. >> those headed did this an issue there are a lot of counties in the country but where you have a police department with the township for a borough that is where it is needed. >> i have a question relating to these models of right now one certify a is officers to created a database so that raises a flag so that other agencies across the state and across the country can use that as a screening before hiring that officer. in most dates it seems there is the potential to certify officers it seems hard to do that. so i am wondering with the states that we see with this certification model, how often do we see officers get decertified? and what can we do with this recommendation so that when officers are not doing their jobs and violating civil rights there held accountable? ; me clarify my primary focus on certification of individuals is not to certify them to be police officers but executives of police agencies of at least 100 employees. that goes a long way to the national a coherent idea with goods surgery and everybody gets good policing but with respect to the list of officers that are dismissed, it doesn't require you have certification of officers in the first place that the states have to enact the statewide procedure which is a huge part of politics but we start if they have then hired as a police officer and an albuquerque, new mexico when they had a push to hire lots of officers they took people that were fired or people they have rejected previously. it struck me this system that is brand new in the u.k. to have the capacity to have a police officer that was sanctioned for pushing someone to the ground you died of a heart attack and he was dismissed from another police force before he was hired for the one he is that suggestion the past 24 months britain has created this register which it had four doctors the you cannot practice medicine and again that you cannot practice policing but even the decision to hire in britain is local there is no national issues it is up to the discretion of the constable sold local control can be maintained even at the same time you establish the strike off register but any agency could hire people but it is better to have a federal register to be consulted by federal and state and local agencies. if you get that much out of bed with the independent police commissions have the power to recommend is the soul of an officer to put them on the register is something you could talk out -- toss out in and negotiation and i take a real politic view of the recommendations we simply could try to make progress on all of these fronts hoping there would be a benefit with a higher standard of police with the tent bon dash attention with every person rehire or every incident reinvestigate. >> very quickly but first of all, thank you very much has been very informative. this task force has been charged with double to come up with recommendations for the president regarding policing with the recent events that occurred last year and the need for change are reform but from your testimony as well it is very clear to me policing is that the only area that needs to be reviewed your look dash. it has been 50 years with the comprehensive look of the entire criminal-justice system has been done. i would like to hear your opinions about that. too bad eliot to the discussion with probation and reentry end poverty and education that is the main driver and dr. sharon you have mentioned is there something better we can be doing? and all the major police organizations the national sheriffs' association have all come together to make this request and from your perspective if you agree with that and what would you like to see? >> absolutely calling for that appearance and comprehensive look that would include not just protect -- practitioners but stakeholders and leaders there needs to be that innovative approach the test law-enforcement and police is packaged together so and the grand jury is the fault of the officer with the next day's encounter it happened with drug policy it is the fault of the officer. what i would issue as a challenge of is to say what is traditional policing approaches that if you think there are problems they never start their. here is the example with issues of discrimination if you imagine that this criminal justice or a law enforcement but also the context of housing and employment and health care and upstream afford people would have contact with law-enforcement. you talk about poverty but that is not the integrated system the way we talk about accountability and transparency we need tougher state governments. if what we are going to be doing is non-traditional approaches to change your fix or rectify, then we need to start a scream -- upstream to participate in america and democracy so it is the appropriate scale but it needs to be the extreme issues better fundamental ways to participate in democracy what has become traditional policing those approaches start with the acceptance they want criminal justice to stay away and out of sight once that is done we would pick at the new york the label would never pick at schools or hospitals i hope there is the opportunity to do with ongoing not just once but again and again but also to be integrative so they're not on the hook for all outcomes so they can take the empowerment over the rest of it. >> the great question into finished with. i am part of the national crime commission and it is critical for our future. a crime is the symptom of dysfunction across the board police are the only number you can dial three numbers to get the immediate response with an emotionally charged situation with very little information and to work with and have to work very quickly under life-threatening circumstances the dynamic is emotional and goes back to health care and education and poverty that we tend to deal with it to focus on the police and we need to have a response of all the different entities they mentioned earlier starting with early childhood health care and education that all the way through with mentoring with what we value but not in others but also to have a coherent structure the rewards and incentivize is working together collaborative flee that we pit each other against each other competing for budget dollars so retried to separate ourselves to dissolve the tv and instead act as individual agencies where we cannot possibly expect to be successful. free duty to treat what way do as a profession and reach to burn a lot from the health care model to provide a treatment long term for the individual with the body that we are tasked with protecting. >> i think your suggestion is excellent. if you look at the evidence on citizen attitudes and confidence with the criminal-justice system in general, policing looks great by comparison. and i think stepping back to take a larger view of the functioning of the criminal justice system is very important and timely idea. >> in both the united kingdom and the united states the confidence of the local courts is that 15 percent compared to the '50s with the police that is a huge difference but the 1967 report of the commission from president johnson is sunday that shaved an entire generation of reform of though some of us are here at the table because of that report but it is striking it is far more comprehensive and detailed with the criminal justice system. not the overall report but the task force report jon correction sample lease and probation and even on science and technology and there was so much research behind each one so which shows us when they can make an arrest they don't that was observed 10,000 individuals with 36 of servers encountering the police in 3,000 situations in three cities and revolutionized our understanding as a lack of investment with ongoing policy research to help to contribute and i welcome contrast to that commission with what we had forgotten about from the national advisory commission but they did not do any bets but to create larger police departments all over the country. >> really? let me also echo from my fellow panelist observations , i framed it somewhat differently, you said it is time to look to the criminal justice system. and actually i would broaden the scope. i gave the top referencing the same commission that was alluded to but the title was the tyranny of the fuddle that we haven't election all -- intellectual tyranny of report everything into a funnel they make a the arrest and they do it they do down the assembly line then we have justice. but is important to understand a operations of those agencies but the fundamental question is how do we prevent crime? but also may quickly go to the recognition that to think carefully how to read respond to the harm done by yet another one of us? what is a rule of families and communities? if you start with the crime someone has been harmed the person may not have called the police. as you know, very influenced by the riding of my wife on this perspective and half of them never report to the police and some are never even put into the assembly line that is the funnel. so how to respond to the harm? so that means something for that trauma experienced for that crime victim is not compensation or restitution the responding to the need to have their life back on track. then the related question how do we respond in ways that recognized to have significant challenges that brought them to that moment? like medical issues to do exactly a liberty from serious harm to limit that cover as well. but also those two individuals may have something in between them. . . and they come back and at some.have know greater risk of reoffending than any one of us. we have we have this question of how to reintegrate into our society those who have caused those arms have been adjudicated in the been taken away from us for a while? it's not just the system but these big, democratic societal questions that go to government functions but how we deal with conflict as well. it becomes more complicated when you add this to the equation. we have specialized the system and it has done an enormous harm