Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20150213

[inaudible conversations] good afternoon. We are going to get the hearing started. I want to welcome director Nick Rasmussen from the National Counterterrorism center. Nick, we have invited you here today in an open session. I think some of the news outlets vice chair that said this would never happen with me being chairman that everything would be close and i want to point out we are having an open session and this is to provide the senate and the American People with an update on the current threat from terrorism. The committee remains concerned about the expanding evolving nature of this threat than the challenges facing the Intelligence Community and the evolving nature of the threat. This is the first of what i hope will be a number of open hearings that should give the Intelligence Community an opportunity to better inform the public of its current efforts and challenges. As mr. Rasmussen and i have talked about here is what we do. More importantly here is why the American People should understand why this is important to them. Its about their defense. Given the nature of the material we are here discussing and the fact that this is an open hearing i want to remind everyone to use extreme caution to protect intelligence sources and methods. While this is an excellent venue to engage Nick Rasmussen via a reserve the right to immediately suspend any questions or comments that may be sensitive in nature or his response could disclose classified information. The congress is currently debating several matters that impact our counterterrorism efforts including an aumf on the conflict in iraq and syria. As we take up these issues i want to make sure that our members and the public understand the serious and credible threat that many of these groups present to the security of the United States into our allies. In addition to addressing the threat itself i hope you will discuss the impact of media leaks encryption and other challenges on our durability to thwart terrorist attacks. Nick im afraid that your job is getting harder at a time when we can least afford it. I have spent more than 10 years as a member of the house and Senate Intelligence committee as has the vice chairman and have watched closely the threat environment as it has evolved since the attacks of 9 11. The threats we face today are much greater than those we faced since 2001. Al qaeda in 2001 was estimated to have less than a thousand members. The group was relatively geographically contained and plots against our interests were infrequent like todays standards. Today we face groups like the Islamic State of iraq and the levant which is often described as a terrorist army with membership is estimated to be in the tens of thousands. We face terrasys hibbings spamming the middle east and south asia confronted by a host of different plots almost daily. We have have evacuated our embassies in libya and yemen due to threats against their personnel and terrorist groups becoming more creative threatening our citizens and allies with nonmetallic iuds at massive truck bombs. In addition they are mastering the use of the internet and social media to disseminate propaganda to recruit fighters that often already have access to western culture countries like we have seen in europe, canada and even in new york. One of the biggest lessons we have learned from september the 11th attacks was that we cannot give terrasys sanctuary from which to plan attacks against us. Arguably isil now has control of the largest territory ever held by a terrorist group. This safe haven provides isil and other extremists with the time and space they need to train fighters and to plan operations. Also has provided them with the access to weapons and that network that can be used to support external operations. We know about the threat we face from al qaeda prior to 9 11 that we failed to act. I just hope we dont make the same mistake again. Nick i once again thank you, i welcome you here and i now turn it over to the distinguished vice chairman. Thanks very much mr. Chairman mr. Chairman. Director rasmussen welcome and let me say that i have been reading a number of your intelligence products particularly on threats yesterday. I think your agency is doing a very good job. I think you are outwardly bound and just the way we think think about today so i want to thank you for that good work. Today provides us an opportunity for the committee as the chairman has said to discuss and unclassified terms the terrorist threats to the United States and to the rest of the world. This is particularly important that the American Public understand these threads because they provide the necessary context for a number of policy decisions that the United States government was facing and that we have to help make. These threats affect whether we authorize the use of force against isil the need for our continued military deployment and counterterrorism efforts and the need to reauthorize intelligence tools necessary to keep our country safe. I believe the terrorist threats facing the United States is as diverse and serious as anytime any time in our history. I have never seen more serious threats. These come from both inside our country and outside more so than any other terrorist organizations we have seen in the past. Isil is seeking to radicalize followers around the world and inspire attacks in our homeland. They are extraordinarily visible visible. If you look at aqap just as much a danger to us but much more invisible the uniforms of isil their equipment, their taking over the city the children that had been, the christians who have been sacrificed, the iraqi army that were shot down in cold blood all of this has been on television so americans have come to know the threat that isil is. The guidance from isil to potential terrorists is clear, it wants westerners to come to syria into iraq to fight. Isil instructs on how to carry out attacks at home and that is what we are up against. There are more than 100 americans who have either traveled to syria or attempted to travel there. 20,000 foreign fighters will have traveled to syria and who will return home. At least 3400 of them are from western europe and that includes visa waiver countries where they are a plane ticket away from the United States. What we dont know is how many people are inside the United States following isil on the news and on social media and you are becoming inspired to carry out their own attacks. Separately ill qaeda remains focused on conducting attacks against our homeland while a queue in ungoverned areas of pakistan may be as weak as it has been in many years. Al qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula or aqap still poses a clear threat. The group is enjoying a safe haven and yemen with the huti over one of the government there. Remember at aqap was behind the attacks against charlie hebdo. The group has already tempted to send nonmetallic and essentially undetectable bombs into our country on four occasions beginning with the Christmas Day 2009 optima taleb underwear bombing. They do have a bomb that can go through a magnetometer. A few has published stepbystep directions for building that bomb in the latest inspire magazine. Our efforts to confront aqap are significantly diminished with the removal of president hoddy of yemen. The foodies may not have love for aqap but over time the Yemeni Government has become a strong counterterrorism partner that we no longer have. Closing our embassy in sanaa was the right choice but the instability in yemen presents new freedom to roam and kill. Elsewhere there is a power vacuum in libya, and maybe even civil war. Much of northwest africa groups are using that territory for safe haven and i could go on and on but let me just conclude with one remark that i hope director rasmussen will address. On june 1 3 provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act which we call fisa will expire. They are the Business Records authority, the roving wiretap and the lone wolf. If these authorities expire the Intelligence Community will lose key tools to identify terrorist groups and to protect the homeland. This includes nsas fun Metadata Program as well as the authority for domestic fbi investigations but also other important authorities. So i look forward to your testimony director masters director rasmussen and again i thank you for the excellent work you are doing. Thank you mr. Chairman. Thank you vice chairman and let me say for the purposes of members is my intent once testimony has been received that we will go to fiveminute questions based on the order of attendance. Hopefully that is being shared with everybody and we will at this time turned to the director for as much time as your testimony might take. Thank you mr. Chairman madam vice chairman remembers the committee and i have submitted for the record i longer statement and discussed in some depth the threat picture as we see it. I thank you for inviting me today to discuss the terrorist threat the United States is facing worldwide and also to discussed discuss and ctcs effort. As the chairman and vice chairman have noted todays threat environment is increasingly diverse and dynamic as is the wide array of terrorist actors that is driving this environment. They can reach into the west and even into the United States. The emergence of iraq and syria and extremist battlefield and isil is related expansion is brought about changes in that landscape. The emergence of new groups in the wake of the arab uprising since 2011 has also altered the threat picture as most of those groups are focused more on achieving local gains in their regions. We are also experiencing a new level of specialization and fragmentation within the larger terrorism landscape. We believe we might be entering into an era which centralized leadership of terrorist groups matters less than it did previously. We may be entering a time in which Group Affiliation and identity is more fluid. Extremist narratives are more focused on a wider range of agreements as enemies. As paris showed us this may be a time which personal connections on individual terrorists may be more relevant to their plodding than individual Group Affiliations or identity. Even in this dynamic and increasingly complex environment i believe its possible to differentiate to some degree the threat we are facing in the u. S. In the west and the threat we are seeing in the regions where many of our terrorist adversaries are located. As we look at the global terrorism picture we are trying to be careful not to paint a picture with a single broadbrush and i will try to explain. In the United States and western europe the threat of catastrophic attack has been significantly reduced as winter partners have been able to apply consistent counterterrorism pressure to some of the most dangerous groups that we face. Clearly sustaining that counterterrorism pressure is a key element in the ski places around the world and an essential condition to preventing the reemergence of some of the more complex threats that would aim to have catastrophic impact on our homeland. In its current environment our assessment that we face a much greater more frequent recurring threat from lone offenders and probably Loose Networks of individuals. Measured in terms of frequency and numbers it is attacks from those sources that are increasingly the most noteworthy feature of the terrorism landscape. Since may of last year 10 of 11 attacks we have seen in the west were in fact conducted by these individual extremist to hear United States and nine others occurring in Europe Canada and australia. The majority of these attacks look more like like what we would expect from random acts of violence rather than africa alert scale destruction we saw in terrorist plotting immediately after 9 11. In going for we believe individuals and Smaller Networks will try similar attacks to capitalize and build momentum for Media Coverage of these attacks generate. Its also important to note that one would call the smaller scale lowerlevel attacks still can cause amazingly tragic human suffering that can clearly generate fear among local populations and clearly have profound effects on the societies in which these attacks come. I am in no way seeking to minimize the impact that such a path can occur. On these lowerlevel attacks in the west should not in any way suggest we are no longer concerned with the ability of established terrorist groups and even some individuals to target western aviation which would certainly constitute a large scale potentially catastrophic attack. Mitigating the threat to aviation remains at the top of our party list in terms of disruption efforts. He remains true we still face moderate to smallscale threats from groups that are structured and cohesive like a qaeda was an the yak al qaeda affiliates and allies. Although the groups the number of groups opposing that threat is somewhat smaller and their efforts to place pressure on them is met with success is important to remember that these groups are persistent and patient of their desires and their plans to strike the homeland. In contrast to the threat we face at home in western capitals are allies and partners in africa asia and the middle east are facing in some ways a much different threat. As you know some of the most vicious and active terrorist groups are located in countries that are continuing to work through the effects of the arab uprising in recent years places like egypt iraq libya syria and lemon yemen. Other terrorist groups are active in countries undergoing insurgencies places like afghanistanpakistan somalia and egypt iraq syria and yemen. In all of these countries terrorist groups are trying to displace weak governments to make significant territorial gains. In other countries terrorist or contributed to population displacement affecting millions of people on a huge scale. This is happening places like iraq syria nigeria and afghanistan. Some of these terrorist groups are responsible for contributing to the shia and sunni violence. Amidst this and security violence and political instability around the world terrorists are carrying out ever more Violent Attacks much more frequently in these countries and often a greater scale than what we have seen recently conducted in the west. In last year when we have assessed thereve been hundreds of attacks in these countries that have caused thousands of deaths. Just last month the world focused its attention on paris and the attack there well at the same time as this committee knows attacks on local populations by boko haram in nigeria and yemen taking place on a larger scale. Despite the fact that ive tried in some small way to differentiate between the impairment of the west and that we see in a africa the middle east and south asia there is one phenomenon which draws a separate thread pictures together. That phenomenon is the continued flow of foreign fighters to syria particularly those fighters who come from western countries. While the majority of the roughly 20,000 foreign fighters have come to the middle east and north africa more than 3400 have we assessed come from western countries. At and ctc we are working to advance a broad effort across all centers working closely with the Intelligence Community and partners around the world. And ctc compiles information on known and suspected terrorist to travel to syria and we have the data in our environment. That effort has greater viable form for sharing information on known or suspected terrorists with Key Stakeholders that includes Law Enforcement entity Counterterrorism Committee is the screening and the watch listing committees. The severed heads directly help her solve inconclusive identity information enhanced records with more information and most importantly upgrade watch the status for several hundred suspected terrorists. And ctc officers work with fully identified foreign fighters that have access or connection to the individuals on the homeland so they can be watchlisted. My offices are using unique access to a wide range of Law Enforcement information wider than anywhere else. This axis includes her own data as well as their embedded officers and 10 other intelligence organizations. To prevent individuals from traveling to syria in the first place my officers are working to diminish the appeal of terrorism. In partnership with the Energy Department justice and the department of Homeland Security and the fbi we have helped develop tools to counter violent extremism in ways or awareness summer Law Enforcement Committee Leaders across the country. We try to tailor these tools to address foreign fighters recruitment and received a significant amount of positive feedback from the communities with whom we have worked. Theres a demand signal for more of us across the country. Despite these concerted efforts the nature of todays threat that is evident in the chairman in the chairman and vicechairman vice chairman same as the nature of todays threat is challenging our ability to identify and disrupt terrorist plots. This is coming at a time when we are losing capability. Today the terrorist related communications of our terrorist adversaries are increasingly intermingled with communications that are not relevant to our terrorism work that they are not separate and identified strains of information. Signals intelligence has increased in importance in areas around the world where we face challenges with getting information from human sources. Its difficult for us operate in places like syria and libya and increasingly in yemen and terrorist groups are watchful for the possibility they could be in both rated by human sources. Due to this node leaks and other disclosures terrace have a greater understanding of how we conduct surveillance in the scope and scale of reference for their fault of the ways in which we communicate and this has led to a decrease in collection. We have specific examples which we have shared with the committee and the Committee Staff specific examples examples of terrace have adopted greater security measures such as using new types of encryption. Terrorists who have dropped or change email address is and terrorists who have simply stopped communicating in ways they had before in part because they understand how we collect. We have driven a wedge between the government and providers and technology companies. Some companies that were formally recognizing and protecting the nation with Public Service feel compelled to question or oppose their efforts. These challenges that i describe in the collection are meant to go to the question you raise mr. Chairman. All this places a huge premium on information sharing among government to face this challenge. This information sharing gives us the best chance identified lone actors and networks of the sort carried out on these attacks. While the sheer number of foreign fighters are talked about earlier threatened to vermont Law Enforcement intelligence capabilities of some iraqi partners around the world the problem has actually spurred information sharing to a level we have rarely seen if ever another positive development. I would argue this is one tiny bit of good news embedded within the threat picture that is of increasing concern and i hope i have made it clear. I will stop there now mr. Chairman and madam vice chairman and look forward to your questions. Thank you. Correct or thank you very much. We will go to fiveminute questions based on the order of attendance and feinstein cotton coats langford and rich. Mr. Director im going to go right to the issue the vice chair race with you and that is the three fisa provisions that are set to expire the first of june and specifically if they were to, if we allowed those to expire what would be the impact on the and ctcs ability to discover and thwart terrorist attacks upon . As i noted the president of dni stated this essential retain these important capabilities. The ability to have insight into what our evertz series are doing the connections they may have both internationally potentially in the homeland is essential part of the business of identifying individual terrace then building out the picture the networks in which terrorists operate. Fundamentally reauthorization is something we are counting on in the Intelligence Community is an important part of our work. Correct earlier this week the administration asked the creation of the cyberthreats Intelligence Integration Center or they refer to it as ctiic within the odni. The National Center will reportedly be modeled after and ctc in the National Counter Proliferation Center which struggled under the odni management. Im hesitant to authorize the creation of a new center until some of these lingering management challenges can be resolved not least of which is and ctcs ability to fully higher. Can you assure the committee that and ctc will be able to fill the majority of your open vacancies by the end of the year . I believe i can mr. Chairman. I am happy to report that sends over the last five or six months we have taken strides forward in addressing just that concern and problem. Not only improving our ability to higher analysts and officers from outside government and the Intelligence Community to bring new blood into her center but also increasing the level and inflow of officers detailed from and other entities other entities which you well know thats part of the lifeblood having a contribution from fbi and the Defense Department and every member of the committee. If we have this discussion a year ago i would have been you you given you much more cautious response but in the last few months we have had productive engagement with fbi and cia to get levels to where we need them to be so im confident i can give you the assurance you are looking for. If you look at the threat from terrorism its growing and not declining. A the number of threat streams you are facing is shocking and your ability to collect intelligence from those threats is waning. As the principle adviser to the president on counterterrorism are you concerned about the trend and the impact its having on our security . In my statement i certainly talked about the wider array of threats and terrorist actors we are seeing around the globe and clearly that puts increasing pressure on our capacity to respond and react to all of those different places to develop effective strategies in most places. As we talked about in closed session as well its not always possible for the United States to transform the environment in the environment in some these areas where the terrorist threat is growing so we have to develop an approach that allows us to mitigate and disrupt the terrorist Threat Networks most particularly aiming at u. S. Interests while looking to see if there are ways which weaken over time develop partnerships with countries in particular regions so we dont own the burden ourselves in mitigating and disrupting. Unfortunately while you are doing that for two establishes sustainable framework with our partners we have to deal with as you said every day and inflow of terrorist related threats so you are trying to keep up with everyone of those most recent threats at the same time youre trying to build a Sustainable Network of ct partnerships around the world. Doing the longterm are the longterm or clover in managing daytoday is an increasing challenge i will admit. Thank you mr. Director director. Vice chairwoman. Thank you mr. Chairman. I think last year when we had our worldwide threat hearing this is a little different than now. The Khorasan Group was put out there as a group that could really be effective in launching an attack against the United States and if i am reading particularly page eight you talk about two highly capable aqim offshoots. Merging to form the Violent Extremist Group which is one that really havent heard of before. How big is this is the first part of the question and secondly how do you rank the groups and the threats toward the homeland . And which one should we be the most wary of . Let me try to bite that off in a couple of different chunks. We did point in our statement to the emergence of this group of north africa which is an offshoot and a group which we have long known about that one of the offshoots of that group that brought the leadership dispute and internal fights about direction is a group we know as a battalion which includes none individuals with links all qaeda but have engaged in internal feuding that has put them into separate organizations at least the way we look at it. We look at the grouping as a significant threat to our interests and then across north africa. Having the ability to project into europe and of course i consider attacks that could happen in europe potentially has attacks that could involve significant u. S. Interest. We have significant diplomatic business and other presence in most capitals so i dont take for granted americans would not be a part of any attack that took place in your. Your question on the Khorasan Group as we talked about before that is a group a Loose Network of individuals affiliated with koro qaeda in the tribal areas of pakistan and we have long worried about their ability to potentially not only engage and impact of fighting in syria which they are engaged in doing but also while they are engaged in that also looking for opportunities to engage in external operations against u. S. Interests western interests into europe and ultimately even the homeland. Theres not much more i can say about that in a session as you well know that this is among the very highest counterterrorism priorities for the Intelligence Community to understand this network with more granularity and specificity and to develop disruption options. Is aqap still number one talking about the homeland now. I guess i try to avoid number one, number two and number three because as soon as you say that someone that is not watching the picture closely they number three must not be getting the right attention. As i said in my statement even though what we are seeing more frequently in the west are these lowlevel attacks conducted by individuals who arent networked necessarily we are absolutely focused on aqaps efforts to develop an aviation attack against the United States for the reasons mentioned by the chairman and vice chairman statements to propagate the recipe for putting explosives on an airplane a continued effort amidst the fighting in yemen to mount an external operations. That is still very much at the top of our priority list from an analytical perspective and the disruption perspective. When Something Like isil rises to the forefront of concern we dont have the luxury downgrading our efforts against some of the threat stream or set of factors we have at the top of our list. Thank you very much. Thank you mr. Chairman. Senator wyden. Thank you very much. Directory have done a good job of laying out the counterterrorism challenges and in my years on the committee we have seen the threats from al qaeda in afghanistan to insurgents in iraq and al qaeda the Arabian Peninsula. These are very real threats and the question then becomes how do we focus on ways to deal with these threats rather than an effect use approaches that waste time and resources . We have to focus on approaches that work. The bulk collection, the phone records collection that has been widely debated has been described by the president s review group and i will quote here is information that could readily have been obtained in a timely manner using conventional section 215 orders. These are all public documents public reports. Mike morel for example of veteran of the cia reported this document and my question to you is First Congress passes the legislation ending bulk collection would Intelligence Agency still be able to collect information you and they need to protect our country against terrorist operations . I look at this in terms as the president said last year making sure we are in a position to preserve the capability that bulk collection gave us. That is why i support as did the director of National Intelligence to to legislation or Transitional Program to one that would preserve that capability without requiring the government to hold the records in the way they had previously. You are proposing that we and the Bulk Collection Program but ineffective phone companies to keep their recordkeeping practices . Im comfortable with that. That would preserve our capability. Very good. One other question. Mr. Director my understanding is and it would be very helpful here, there questions about whether the office of National Intelligence has provided you at with the Counterterrorist Center with a copy of the full classified version committees report on the use of torture. Have they provided you with that report . A select number of my officers had access. Im certain to the executive summary. I would have to get back to you. Have you seen at . Ive seen portions of it. Have you asked for a copy of the report . I have not personally asked for a copy of it, no. I allowed access to it in order that we did perform detail and it lasted when we were asked to participate and threat assessments. There are some Additional Details in the classified version that i think are relevant so i hope youll ask for a copy and review it. I look forward to working with you and i think it is helpful to have on record that Congress Passes the legislation and an bulk collection preview and the other Intelligence Agency can go forward doing the important work to do with the threats in this country. They are very real and im interested in working with you on the report as well and i hope you ask for a copy of the reporting review it. Senator warner. Thank you mr. Chairman and mr. Rasmussen thank you for your service. I do think are brief comments senator wydens comments we will have a spirited debate on that issue. I do think there are challenges as we discussed before both privacy and security related around holding data and that will be the subject of longer conversations. I want to raise isil aqap and focus on your testimony but i would like to raise one other idea and the testimony of touchdown. Think back lester in april when we were astonished by the actions of boko haram in nigeria seizing 300 girls from my school, 200 of which i think are still missing and the United States sending troops and advisers to the region. We have seen since that time 1. 5 Million People displaced north of 3000 killed in 2014 and a coalition or rice recently in benin chad and cammer murren. Can you give us an assessment whether these countries have the capability. Obviously nigeria has postponed their elections. The first question would be can they take on the threat of boko haram . The atrocities are pushed off of the front page because the atrocities and what threat that poses beyond the regional. I think youre onto something with the question by raising the question of regional partners. There is no question that nigeria faces significant challenges against boko haram. Even the most stable political environment they would face those challenges and as the kennedy well knows right now nigerias in the midst of a potential transition that will test further their ability to mount a coherent response on the intelligence and military communities. One solution to that is to try to get regional partners involved Nazir Cameron and other partners and they are increasingly stepping up to that challenge but theyre admittedly limited resources but their shared sense of threat. I think we will be in a position to try to enable these partners to develop a regional approach and doing what we can principally through advising and assisting in providing intelligence for its appropriate appropriate. I think that can increase their effectiveness. It remains to be seen certainly tide has turned against boko haram and it remains to be seen at the regional parties can and concert turn that tide. I would not want to get ahead of that in terms of predicting anything. This is a part of the world where we do not have the largest resource footprint so we do what we can but we may have to reevaluate boko harams trajectory of her time to see the partners are overmatched. Do you see any evidence of boko harams reaching out to other groups in terms of Network Network . Exactly. The intercommunication between boko haram and other terrorist groups in the northern part of africa and even with isil all of that adds to the picture of an interconnected terrorist network with the ability to share resources personnel and expertise and tradecraft in a way that serves as a multiplier for their own capabilities and that is a disturbing trend. I think this is an area where obviously there are huge challenges. And responds to questions that senator wyden raised you indicated that you and the director of National Intelligence have assessed ending the Bulk Collection Program and transferring Communication Companies would not impede in any way doing the necessary tracking and usage of that to reach the information that you want but since that hasnt been done and since we havent laid out a procedure and how we are going to do that and we dont know exactly how its going to be collected and so forth and so on with a much shorter period of time of holding that information how can you be so certain that its not going to degrade in any way your ability to access that information . I guess i cant say anything with complete certainty senator but looking at the provisions as we understood them we believe the legislation would have maintained the essential capability that we were requiring we maintain. The legislation calls for for shorten. Not a temporal thing that information we have seen instances where we need to go deeper than that in order to determine the connections of the network that we need to assess. I certainly agree. And how can you say with assurance that ending that bulk collection is not going to lead the shorthanded in terms we need to assess . I cant predict in the future what information requirements we would have. How can you come to the conclusion . We are not sure senator exactly how this is going to work so we cant guarantee well have the same access under the Bulk Collection Program. Again i look at this in terms of capability in my understanding is that would have provided us with an essential capability. Im a little bit burden here because as the director i fall in the footsteps of two previous and ctc directors mike lighter and matt olson who were distinguished lawyers to live this architecture in ways that i havent. So i am less in a position to speak on exactly how these programs work in the same way my predecessors were. That is way raise a question about your answer to senator wyden. And ctc director thinks its fine and therefore why did we question it . As you know their difference of opinions and different agencies as to whether or not this was the right thing to do. I understand that and that is why i am relying on my experts who have assured me that the preservation of capability gives us what we need. As with anything it involves giveandtake on particular provisions printed be happy to talk about it further with you in a closed session where i can come at you with understand and i think we should do that mr. Chairman because i think there are major questions the need to be resolved here. The remaining time that i have do your agency or somewhere in the i see community what is the appeal to the thousands of westerners that fall prey to the appeal of engaging in this depravity which is obviously we are all aware of and are so attracted to this . Im trying to get to the source and get my head around the fact that how can someone who has the perfect capability of seeing what theyre walking into think thats the thing to do. The same ideology perhaps from certain countries in the middle east but coming from western europe and coming from america is civilized and cultured society and civilized might not be the right word but obviously you know what i mean are you looking at bad and is there a way for us to counter the social media saying this is what youre getting into which is a pretty tough situation. Thats a terrific question senator and isils propaganda runs the gamut. You are absolutely right to point to some of these horrific videos including that sends a signal and attracted some element of isils propaganda also includes a fair number of messaging examples in which they paint a fulfilling life in the caliphate that they project to individuals who may be disenfranchised, disadvantaged dissatisfied in their home environment. So the range of factors for people than that going to places like syria now ranges from ideological that you pointed to but also to the psychological catering to some sense of wanting to belong to something no matter how depraved that group they would belong to is. And to others its the sheer sense of adventure and a chance to throw your hat into the winning side is a part of the calculation. We have tried to disaggregate all the different factors in the messaging we are seeing so we can develop contra messaging strategies to go at it. The president convened this summit next week drawing and our European Partners and many of her middle east and partners to get a better handle on this. Unfortunately as we know the government is probably not the best platform to try to communicate with this set of factors who are potentially vulnerable to this propaganda in this recruitment and that something we deal with all the time. We try to find ways to stimulate this counter messaging without having the u. S. Government hand in it. People who are attracted to this dont go to the government for guidance on what to do. Not the u. S. Government and certainly not the governments in the middle east the statements from senior religious figures are useful but its pop culture thats going to get in many cases the voices of popculture or voices relevant to these experiences is the reason people have a far more profound impact than anything we say. I think so to me. We need to take advantage of social media that they taken a shouldnt be government directed and coming from other areas of a culture reaching out to these people and letting them know exactly what theyre getting into which is not the promise that is being made during recruitment. Thank you senator coats. Senator collins. Thank you mr. Chairman. Director i want to follow up on the issue of the Telecommunications Company holding the data in two different ways. First of all there are hundreds in this country and by contrast very few people, the number of people who have access to the database in this country has come out in recent months with strictly limited that they were welltrained to get more people have access to the database isnt that likely to raise additional privacy problems and questions . That i would have to understand how the architectures going to look and i would ask if i could take that for the record senator. A related question, would you be troubled if there is no requirement for the Telecommunications Companies to retain the data for a certain length of time . Is obviously in the interest of the Intelligence Community to try to maintain the capability to access that data for as long as period of time as we can. In terms of specific provisions to compel i can speak to that. I can only speak to the interest we have in maintaining that capability and to have that access. Let me turn to the issue of homegrown terrorism and countering violent extremists. You said in your testimony today and i completely agree that we place a much greater recurring threat from lone wolf and Loose Networks of individuals and you talk about the number of attacks since last may and 10 of them were from violent islamic extremists. As you may have seen former defense Intelligence Agency director Michael Flynn recently commented that he could not identify which agency or individual in the u. S. Government is in charge of the fight against radical islam extremist. Obviously dhs the fbi, dod to some extent, the department of state and ctc are all important players. Who is in charge . I would argue senator that as with most elements of our counterterrorism efforts we are approaching on the whole government efforts about a Single Agency of responsibility. The effort against extremists in the United States we have a very tightknit Community Focus particularly among the Justice Department fbi in and ctc along with the Deputy Directors of those organizations. Every other month at the director or Deputy Director level synchronizing activities at the homegrown violent extremist phenomenon making sure we coordinate a partner with each other so when we go to community and i used them for my testimony as an example of a community we had gone to in the wake of the arrest there last year of three young somali american women we go arm in arm lockstep four of us working together handinhand with the special agent in charge of the local fbi office u. S. Attorney in the capital and elements in the city so we are speaking with one voice as the federal government. When we get there we are dealing with the widest array of Community Leaders and organizations because most of this homegrown violent extremist effort is going to be carried out by those communities. Our role in many cases is to empower and provide information. One of the things we did in the experience of denver is provide an awareness briefing that explains what senator was talking about the appeal of the narrative, the kinds of things that their kids might be saying on the internet if they were supervised were terrorists were not engaged with what their children were doing. Im very comfortable comfortable we are working harmoniously together. Could i make the case for one Single Agency given a lead role . I dont they get good right now. We had a bunch of discordant harmony i might make that case senator. Could we do better . Im not going to sign up to the idea that we couldnt do more better and looking to resources more robustly but i dont think the problem we face is a result of having a lead federal agent agent agency. From my perspective the problem is if no one is in charge its very difficult for us to assess the effectiveness of a program to budget appropriately to hold people accountable to assess whether what we are doing is making a difference. When we did the fort hood investigation and 2010, one of our major recommendations from a Homeland Security committee was that there needed to be a strategy that there needed to be a lead agency or person in charge. Its not that but we cant provide support if we cant assess them if there is the person who can calm and report to us. My concern is the National Security council appears intent on trying to exercise the role of policy implementer rather than just policymakers. Thank you senator. We are all trying to operate under the rubric of the president s homegrown strategy for here in the homeland. We are looking at ways in keeping with your suggestion to try to come up with funding mechanisms across departmental lines and we can do what you described. Some sense of the joint work without relying on Department Budgets and stovepipes. I will certainly make sure we get more information to you on that. Thank you. Mr. Rasmussen lets talk about yemen. I understand our embassy there is closed and most of the people certainly from the state department and empathy are all out of the country and cars left with keys at the airport whatever took to get out of there. A few months ago yemen was a great example of how her efforts were working and how the plan was working. How do you think that changed so quickly and looking back what you think you and others might have seen to give more warning then we got a back . The situation in yemen has been unstable politically and for a long period of time the Yemeni Government faced a problem of a foodie conflict emanating out of the northwestern part of yemen but that was not a new phenomenon and for many years the influence of a Foodie Community was largely contained to the northwest corner of yemen alongside the saudi border. That changed dramatically when the foodies moved out of that historical location they held and moved towards sadat and much as we saw dealing with the isil phenomenon the one thing that is difficult to assess from an intelligence perspective is the ability of a military organization to actively confront another insurgency. Director clapper and noahs talk about the challenge of the Intelligence Community faced in predicting whether the Iraqi Security forces would have melted away the way they did in the face of isils advances last summer. I would say say on somewhat of a smaller scale Something Like that happening in yemen with president hoddy who faced a complicated political environment in managing his military and managing his Security Organization as the foodie advance towards senate took place they were unopposed in many cases. Thats something we have got to find a better way to understand the willingness of fighters to fight. If you match a borders in battle and the Resources Available from various sides you would look at and say theres no way that would happen but obviously it did and has left us in a position now on relatively short notice over the past few months the security situation has deteriorated far more rapidly than we expected and particularly because we could not assure the safety and security of our officers there the decision was made to leave. I dont want to get into any kind of ongoing discussion with you about the specifics of how i see these things now that we have got an example in the isil or isis where there is a j. D. And a nationstate 90 days later or yemen which is a great example of our successful Foreign Policy and six months later it appears to be a total disaster trade i think is it fair to say that the Intelligence Community has to reevaluate how those insurgencies may match up against the ability to face them . I think that is fair senator. Another question i have, i noticed the information the president sent up to the congress to look at yesterday the focus was against isil or associated persons or forces. How would you define the second part of that . Is that another terrorist group who is somehow binding . Is that alnusra or some of these al qaeda groups that dont appear to be in line with isil . How would you define associated persons or forces . Would that be right . There are certainly terrorist groups that have not associated at this point with isil they have reach out to affiliated relationships and endorsement like relationships with groups outside iraq and syria and north africa and algeria. And including in i believe yemen as well. I am out of time. Thank you chairman. Senator langford . I need to ask new page ten of the written report. You use add statement here iran will remain the foremost state sponsor of terrorism. And a couple of notes on that i want Additional Details on that when you talk about iran being the foremost state sponsored terrorism. How many countries are then gauged in and terrorist groups. Are then gauged in sponsoring . Sponsoring . Iranian sponsorship in the association with particularly lebanese will give or provides a global reach to that organization. I could not give you direct answer as to how many countries but i and where we can identify through intelligence those individuals developing an approach using every tool that we have whether it is designation by the treasury department, other Law Enforcement and intelligence action and any tool that we have to try to shut down that financing pipeline. That is the area where it is a constant constant struggle because these organizations are part of he have st to fund raise and i would be happy to talk in closed session about the work the community is doing in that area is there a sense for iran as the state sponsored terrorism . Is that on the decline . Is it consistent . Is it continuing to increase . Have we noticed a significant change in iran in their behavior . I would describe that as consistent in stud steady. Over time. And we are particularly mindful of their support for militant groups in places like iraq where the front line activity where shia militant groups that have connectes to iran could be potentially threatening to our personnel on the ground in iraq. Okay. I will ask about another country. In the location, yemen will issue yeah has fallen into total chaos. With no functioning government anymore and every time they form a government it will collapse within months. And are border line as vice chairman mentioned earlier. Civil war at this point. Terrorist groups seem to enjoy an evacuate assume. What do we see is on the rise in libya and what is our statistic thinks as far as a Terrorism Organization spreads there . You are right senator. If i had to identify one of the greatest areas of merging concern with respect to counterterrorism, it would be libya. We were already facing the chaotic political environment there, in which the resident in north african based terrorist groups that we have talked about the before aqm of the alqaeda al sharia were active and potentially threatening in libya and a potential ability to threaten the u. S. Interests across north africa. What changed more receiptly. And made the environment more difficult is that isis has look today also take advantage of the chaos of libya and hes tab lish afoot hold there as well. We are still looking to try to assess whether that capability will manifest itself next turnal operations outside of the region of north africa or if the intent is simply to give themselves a capability to attack western interests in places like cairo. Tunis or morocco. That would by itself would be a significant sufficient concern to warrant our attention we are obviously mind full of what they will try to to do expand into europe as well. Threaten interests there. Okay. A final question. If iran stopped supporting terrorism what affect would that have on the region . And on our terrorist operations . Operations . Well, if iran got out of the business of providing state sponsor ship to terrorist organizations it would obviously lower our potential level of concern about the capabilities of some of the groups that we worry about. I dont necessarily know it would look like an on off switch though. Some cases, they are relationships and capabilities that have developed over decades and decades. So i dont know that it would all be unraveled and unspooled by just flipping a switch obviously there is not a switch that we have access to but there is a lot of connection theres. Understand, thank you sir. Senator rubio. Thank you mr. Rasmussen. To take on senator lankford. There is multiple reports in the media that daa libya has emerged as a central and growing hub for isis is. That not right . Think that is right yes, sir and and in addition linked to many of the groups now in benghazi, and essence in an open source report that isis is the predominant report of benghazi. That is correct. There is also been an open source report that can isis was behind a terrorist attack in a hotel in tripoli that killed an american citizen into yes. And in addition there was an open source reporting this week that isis. Ice commander was killed in afghanistan. Yes. So there is now an isis presence as well in afghanistan and open source reports of terrorist Training Camps that were set up in portions of afghanistan that is correct. We have seen in recent months. That isis isil has look today expand their reach into a number of different places in the word. Have you highlighted two of the microsoft resent in afghanistan and libya. Also egypt where it has happened. And the libya front darna is not a port city. A perfect and there is no alassad bombing them there. Or airstrikes my concern is that it is becoming one of their most important hubbs it. Is uncontested. They have access to shipments and foreign fighters to take in. I think that is an area of growing emergence that i am surprised there is not more discussion about. Because of how serious of a threat it will pose including to sinai. That would be a great spot of which to launch attacks into the sinai or get ice ill groups involved in sinai . That is right again the egyptian based terrorist group that recently affiliate with the isis. We worry about the threat posed to the western interests to egypt. And the tourists. American businesses and also our troop presence. That would be a mistake in your opinion to simply focus the fight against isis as being syria and iraq this group is increasing their footprint and presence in multiple stages including afghanistan throughout north africa. And particularly libya. That is correct and they have expanded their reach and i want to ask you about Guantanamo Bay and prior to president obamas executive order to determine the disposition of Guantanamo Bay detainees 101 former detainees would be confirm today have reengaged inner is terror. And then the latest report that we got in july 2014. It state that had 2009 to july 2014 88 did he table hes would transe for out of gitmo. Out of the 88 transe forked out. Six were return today terror activity and an additional one was suspected. So by my calculation that means 107 of the 620 total detainees would be transferred from guilt know have reengaged in terror. Another 77 are suspect of the doing so. In addition the 107. So can you tell us since july of 2014 when the report came out how many have returned . And in our estimation to terror . We are just on the cusp of the next couple of weeks to provide the next reiterated version of the report received in july. In the numbers will be out. Very. Very short. And as it stands one of six of those returned. I want to say though we do not have the report finalized, what i would expect is that the trend line. The proportion left side be roughly in line with what we reported in july as well. As it stands right now. Before the report comes out it. Looks like it is approximately close to one out of six individuals released from Guantanamo Bay have rent gauged in terrorism. Maybe more as a net figure that is correct but the population released since 2009. That number is a lower number and okay. Lastly on the question of iran. I want to return back to kind of the threat that senator lankford is pursuing. Iran uses an approximately relationship with had hes bowl and those militias indebted and controlled by them as well. Do we have any evidence that you can discuss here of iran trying to set up similar type groups in places like kuwait, saudi arabia bahrain, jordan . Would i have to address that in a closed session senator and okay. Thank you. We would be happy to provide that we are. I would not wait, we will provide that through the Committee Staff thank you senator rubio. If somebody stops out the story. They know you are a director of nctc. They say mr. Director what do they do . Why should i care . What would your answer be . I would tell that person that nctc strives every day to be a center of gravity for the nations counterterrorism efforts. Not the center of graphity. To say that would be a disservice to up the partner thats do the counterterrorism work as well. But the center of graph that the will provide information, and analysis Strategic Planning and sput of National Counterterrorism efforts. Would i ask that they have had a large number of officers that come to work every day to assess and analyze and provide information aimed at defeating our terrorist adversaries that is what i would say. Why should i care . You should care because as we talk about the in the Opening Statements. In your Opening Statement, the threat environment we face right now, is the most multifeatsed diverse and dynamic threat ever face and may manifest itself in communities all over this country this. Is not simply a threat that manifests itself in farflung places all over the world. Kinds of lowlevel potentially small scale attacks that i talked about from ice ill inspired or other terrorist group inspired individuals are the kinds of attacks that may literally happen in any of our other states. In part this is because you have said to me when we first met. You know. I believe America Needs to know what we will do. And the Intelligence Community cannot be this black hole. For forever and i want to thank you for what your organization has done for all of the many employees because when you hear the Intelligence Community described this is not nctc first but everybody who is in the Intelligence Community as a customer of yours they look to the analytical proed that your folks produce. We look to the analytical prodded that you produce from the standpoint of being policymakers. They look at it from a standpoint of actionable information. I this i that have you some of the most talented folks working for that you you possibly could, and i do want to reiterate something. If for some reason you feel that there are constraints that will not allow to you build out your workforce, to the degree that we have authorized and to the degree that i think that we have both agreed you need, i hope that will you share that with the vice chairman and myself to help to try to remediate that. I will do that. Again i am grateful to both you mr. Chairman and the vice chairman for the sustained support of the workforce over time i this that i one of the biggest contributionses congress could make towards to that end would be to not put us into the position where we are dealing with the second west relation and environment going into the future that impacts all federal agencies in the budget and about ability to on rachlt our organization in particular where we were so reliant on the detailed personnel from other organizations that budget approach as a ripple affect. It will reduce the ability of at organizationes to do the hiring. And developing of the personnel that we will need to fill our rank so it end up having a double whammy affect on the organization like nctc whether there is an uncertain budget environment that affects partners the way that it does i thank you mr. Collector. I will turn to the vice chairman. If there was a follow up question to ask. I would like to put the paper in the record if i might. Since senator rubio mentioned the recidivism rate of former gitmo detainees. And i would like to put the problem is really that as whether it is bush or obama, people learned more. The rates changed dramatically prejanuary of 09, the rate was 101 532. Of and that is 19 . Now since the obama administration, it is six out of 88. That is 6. 2 . So will you have to look at it in versions of time and i would like to put this paper in the record if i may. So everybody can see it. I have one other question to ask the director. Director, days before the public release or of our report on cia detention and interrogation, we received an intelligence assessment predicting violence throughout the world. And significant damage to the United States relationships nctc sister fated in that. Do you believe that it provided to be correct . I could speak to the threat portion of that and i would say that it was the part of the most direct purchase on 4 and i cant say that i can disaggregate that level of violence and terrorism we have seen and issued aggregate that level from what we may have seen otherwise. Because as you know, the turmoil railing that part of the parts of the world not that part of the world but those parts of the world. Middle east south africa, asia. There is a number of factors going in to creating the difficult threat environment that we face some the assessment that we made at the time. As a community. Was that this would increase or add to the threat picture in the places i dont know. Looking backwards right now that we could say aha. That did by expercent, we are also i think clear in saying that there is a parts of the impact that we would not know until we would have the ben fist time to see how it would play out. In different locations all over the world and oh boy. I disagree with you about you that is what makes this arena i guess. The fact in my mine was a threat assessment that was not correct. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. Thank you vice chairman senator thank you chairman. I will go back to where i was when i ran out of time earlier, on just trying to in my mind figure out where the aumf that is was proposed and how it would relate to the various terror groups. I think that the further language on the associated persons or forces says means individuals and organization thats are fighting for on behalf of or alongside of isil or closely related successor entity. And hostilities against the United States or Coalition Partners can you list the terrorist groups that cannot be associated with ice ill. And you mentioned too earlier and terrorist groups that we have seen in latin america. Too i dont believe that definition of a force and alqaeda affiliated groups operating in Southeast Asia for example there are examples from the top of the head. But this if we just take that definition does that mean that ice ill and the associated groups are the only people that we have authorized the president to go and do whatever is necessary within the restrictions of that or does the 2001 aumf give the President Authority to go after other terrorist groups . I would have to get you answer on that sir. I am not confident that i know enough about the design of the amf and authorization of force. You surely by counterterrorism know all about the 2001. What authorization that will give us that will allow us to carry out associated forces. Could you refresh me on this . No, that is the one. That is right it also said the future terrorism against United States in that 2000. That is the within that we let stand and eliminate that 2002 on iraq specific and add this one two it. So i guess what i am think thinking is what we really add by adding this complicated definition of terrorists that associate with isil is. Isil covered under the 2001 aumf i believe not you believe not so how are we engaging with isil now in syria . Let me provide you with an answer sir. I want to be precise and correct when what i provide you and do you have a followup on the question . Yes and i assume that we might be able to pursue isil or isis in iraq through the 2002. If the 2001. My point mr. Chairman is if the 2001 is broad enough to cover isil now. I do not know what we would aed to it when we add another authorization and leave that on the books. There is a closely related associate when we will begin to define this and the groups. Coral quaid is generally not at one time and various renamed and affiliated groups have sprung up everywhere from the philippines to all over the world. And i will be vin rested in how we define and why we would specifically begin to define individual groups as opposed to what and how broad the 2001 authorization was which is i gets beginning of that question so thank you. I look forward to your response on that thank you. I think that it gets more confusing when in the same agree graphic battle space that it would be a 2001 amf to provide us with at course on. And next door. In the same agree graphical area. That they would go after isil senator king. We are glad that you can join us thank you, i appreciate that a markup in the Arms Services come itemy. And there is dispatch hopefully i will not confuse this discussion further it. Is important to talk about the umf and the term associated for forces will not appear anywhere in it x that is a gloss upon gloss that the 2011 aumf. And they would use an appropriate force again the nations organizations or persons. He determined planned authorized committed or aided those for september 11th and harbored the organizations of persons in order to prevent a future act of Enter National terrorism. That was used very very broadly. That is one of the concerns and um. I think that the president has realized that to stretch it into attacking an organization that didnt even exist in 2001 operating in a country that was at least partially stable in 2001 is quite the stretch. I think that is why we have a new authorization that was brought forward to cover the isil situation. So that is a matter for the more than Foreign Relations committee. And 2001 has been stretched very far i am frankly one who is glad to see that the president has brought forward a new authorization count or terrorism. We think of killing people. And striking and intercepting the communications and drones. All of that type of thing. And yet with we are learn that can what we have part what have we have had to do is intervene before people will get radicalized and yet. When you raise that, the fbi says that we are not social workers and the county sheriffs say that we are not social workers and if it is not going to be Law Enforcement that does that type on social media for example. Who will do it and do you see it as part of the Counterterrorism Mission. Certainly and especially most particularly here in the home is part of the Counterterrorism Mission and they do embrace the mission even if some of the individual maze have said exactly what you said senator king. Earlier in the discussion we talked about some of the work that the nctc is doing along with the fbi and Homeland Security and Justice Department to try to do exactly what you just described. The effort would be to enable and empower local communities to carry out this type of intervention in their own communities and to enable them to do that in away that does not scream Law Enforcement context because you know that can have a chilling affect on the type of immunity teen gaugement and Community Dialogue that would help you to get at the underlining cause thats would lead to violent extremism so. The role that we have take friend the federal government is circumdescribe and aimed to providing communities with the tools to do this type of work and information so that they will understand how terrorists is using social media to go after their children and their communities to let the parents and teachers and schools and other Authority Figures to understand what is coming at them and what would be necessary to prevent a foreign fighter from developing. What we are doing in this area is useful and important and thus far it is not scalable on the size to have the impa account that we want across the country the president s countering violent extremism summit during the part of next week the three pilot cities language and boston will report to the group on efforts in that area. They are important cities that the federal government has been working closely with to try to do this kind of work. But they are 3 cities and the purpose of the pilot would be to demonstrate whether it could be done on a scale that would have impact far beyond just those three cities and you are could not occurring that this type of effort would be apart of the overall Counter Terror strategy . Absolutely. And in particular, it is apart of the counter isil strategy. Both at home. Abroad because as you well know senator most of the foreign fighter population that we are worried about, will emanate from the countries other than the United States so we will need to help other countries to be more effective at this and also we will need to learn from them. And in many cases some of the European Partners are doing tremendous work on a Community Level to try to counter the work and the spread of the violent extremism in their communities that will be one of the other side bars that next weeks summit is to get the Lessons Learned out of partners on that. And i understand that they have develop add program for dealing with this problem in prisons that is where radicalization will take place that is true and the example that brought home just how dangerous and radicalizing an environment prisons can be i know that the department of justice has engaged on that issue in the bureau of prisones to make sure that we have that identified and where possible under control here. But i will have to get you more details on that. Thank you. Thank you mr. Chairman and thank you. Thank you for your willingness to spend one hour and with john mccain and come to this hearing. I am a patriot you will be rewarded in heaven. You will assure you director. Thank you so much for being here today. Sharing your insight with us. Please carry become to your employees how grateful that we are for the great work that the employees from nctc do. Thank you so much for having me the hearing is adjourned. If members would take their seats we are going to begin this hearing and i will ask all members to take their seats at this time. This morning the committee will ten our focus on the growing threat of isis and of course the hearing will take only added significance as yesterday the president requested that the Congress Formally back military action against this jihadist organization. An organization that has beheaded americans and has sold and raped thousands of women in syria. This is not a new threat for the members of the committee one year ago this committee took testimony from one of the few Administration Officials and sounding the isis alarm that was ambassador brett who told us that the groups mission was clear. And he said that they wanted today carve out a zone of governing territory to run from bag today to syria to lebanon and at that point in time. We were seeing a situation where isis was just beginning to expand into towns in syria. And members of the committee on both sides of the aisle called for airstrikes against isis so they could not begin that process of expansion. Unfortunately, we went month after month after month, and town after town. To isis to air syria and across iraq. Over the past 12 months and through the dozen hearings we have seen the isis threats only grow. And now we have three american hostages dead including Kayla Mueller not only killed but isis has beheaded two japanese hostages and emulated a downed jordanian pilot for the world to see. And this again is on top of what they have done in terms of raping as i said. By now tens and thousands of women across syria and other minorities. Killing husbands, raping the wives and the daughters. This group occupies a vast territory and holds an estimated 2 billion in as outs assets. I do not think that there was a terrorist organization that was more well funded than this terror group. Has use add internet to recruit foreign fighters at an unprecedent the rate. 20,000 from 9 0 countries are now making up the ranks of isis. According to the intelligence estimates thain includes 34 hundred from the west. And 150 americans on the Ground Fighting for isis today. Over the past year the committee has pressed the administration to intensify and to accelerate their response some pieces are being put together but too slowly of a 60member coalition and 8 5 are from u. S. Fighter jets this air campaign isnt pimping the enemy as it should. It is not intense enough all of us are glad to see iraq Prime Minister malachy go but with respect to reports of shiite mishl as wreaking havoc the jury is still out on the governments ability to feel competent and inclusive Security Force there. The training and equipment of iraqi fors also will continue to lag and we are not likely to see the 12 iraqi brig as that wren have iinged several months they are more supportive of the National Force and the question is will they be in it for the long hall . After 6 months of fight, the committee is deeply concerned to receive reports that the Kurdish Peshmerga were out judge and running out of ammunition on the front lines and unarmed and equipped by the United States this has to change. Last father. Training and equipment for Syrian Opposition forces is still not up and running and alassad is looking for comfortable by the day. This has left the key allies in the region distraught and questioning the administrations strategy and as so many here do. Despite these problems. Kurdish forces on the ground and concentrated air support from the coalition fors in the air helped to take back 6,000 fighters there kill. Isis fighters and the kurds have shown tremendous bravery. They deserve more and timely delivered aide to the cause of fighting isis. Jordans tragedy is galvanizing the Coalition Getting jordan to step up its role in the air campaign and to commit thousands of troops to the border area with iraq is a show of force. Last week the committee met with the retired general john allen the state departments lead to counter isis. And problemed our support for jordan to get the equipment they need in this fight. The uae also has recommitted fighter planes to jordan it is arab forces and voice thats have to be central in this fight they need to see and to feel American Leadership i am pleased that the president request that had congress act on the authorization of use of military force against isis. And now he will need to make a case to the American People and the committee as we will work to examine this proposal indepth it will not be easy. But comforted by the Ranking Members will be unite today see the bipartisan backing behind a proposal to ensure that the commander in chief have the authority needed to decisively defeat the enemy. So joining us later. I would like to now recognize the Ranking Member mr. Sherman of california for his opening state. I thank our witnesses for being with us as well. Thank you. I think that i am a second Ranking Member mr. Chairman. I view this as the first hearing on the president s request for the authorization to use military force. I hope that we focus on that request as the main duty east committee and that we have not only hearings but that we will move to the mark upand perhaps prior to moving to the markup. We will move to a discussion. Where members can take five minutes to explain what they would like to see in an ultimate resolution. We are all aware of the evil of isis isis almost asks to us take military action against them if they had a madison avenue marketing firm, and tried to say what can we do to provoke americans, this is exactly what they would do. What is interest something that the smit alliance. What i would argue is at least an equal danger has done Everything Possible to avoid america taking military action whether they will bargain in good faith in again eve a i have not seen it yet but going to geneva will hit american concerns. And of course they were quite successful in avoiding syria in the United States. And ultimately willing to give up most of their chemical weapons to do so of course america calls out for the immediate destruction of isis. We will see again in the hearings to achieve that goal that it would be difficult perhaps impossible and certainly involved a tremendous american casualties we can work for the destruction and push thing in the right direction to a diego. Without enormous american casualties we are certain to incur incredible american casualties and i am not sure that the middle east will ever be what we want it to be. With mr. Chairman we had hearings on iran and i think that the Shiite Alliance led by iran and including many of the forces in baghdad including iraq and alassad. His hizbollah. Is more dangerous and more deadly than isis they have killed far more americans starting with beirut and marines in the 19 80s and carried on operations on every continent, they will more capable of killing americans in the homeland than isis. They have killed far more people in the middle east alassad alone has killed 200,000 if we are going to focus on destroying isis. We should not just focus on that. We will need to ask what comes next . Who will fill the physical space. Ideological space and cyberspace . Alqaeda is well positioned to fill the ideological space. They are an organization that is older and they may also learn social media to a level of isis and to the physical space, we will see the Shia Alliance from tehran to southern lebanon that would be emboldened by the destruction of isis. Believe it or not i dont have alonger statement. I did not think i expect mr. Ngle to be here i can see no one. And yield back to the chair. Thank you mr. Chairman, we will go back to a minute to middle east and north africa. Thank you so much mr. Chairman. We are deeply sat ended by kaylas appalling murder by isil terrorists. She made it her mission to care about humanity in the region that seems to no longer value human life and our prayers go out to her familiarly. The brutality of isis knows no bounds and the cancer is throughout the region. The president has finally given us a draft of uamf so i look forward to the robust debate on the committee. And no matter what happens with the aum fvment solving a problem of isis cannot happen without addressing problems of alassad. Iran. And a partnership that will ensure that syria will continue to be a terrorist breeding ground for troops like isil. And the big part of the Administration Strategy would be to train equip programs to seek to enhance the latest by syrian leaders and the program has not started yet. Fighters will be trained and we are not engage the alassad regime just isil. And i worry that this policy is not going to be victorious. Thank you mr. Chairman. Thank you. We will go to Ranking Member of the terrorism you is commit sneechlt thank you mr. Chairman the death of Kayla Mueller marks the hand of those terrorists. Though it is true. She would have gone onto enact great change that courage and empathy would encouraging those more counted and prayers are with her lost ones at this time along with kayla. We have lost james foldy. So the love. And peter case i can and allies overseas and and kenji goto. All of these people died tragically and continued to well developed strategy with the support of our trusted partners with an Enter National coal sxigs use of military force these are the metrics that i expected to be debated and continually reviewed and never forgotten it. Is critical and we will consider this matter as the most serious of the decisions that all of us will make as a congress thank you mr. Chairman with that i yield back now to the chairman of nonproliferation. Thank you there. Is not a comprehensive strategy to defeat isis. The training and the equipment of the moderate rebels has not start and it will not be enough to make a difference. Rebels will probably end up fighting a saud and not isis. The airstrikes have taken a toll. Nobody plaintiffs they will have defeat this had group in the local population and the effort to soon zahnies and iraq against isis has not shown a significant progress. And kurdishes have a record of against isis. They will not cut and run we have refused to give adequate weapons to fight against isis and we are more concerned about baghdad and turkey. What they think more than about helping the kurds. And last year as intelligence authorization bill required a strategy to debate to gift president the power to go to war against isis it would be nice if we knew what the strategy was to win that war what is the plan . I will yield back. I will go to mr. Deutsch later whether he joins the committee for the Opening Statement and this morning we are joined by the distinguished group of experts. Ambassador james jeff reechlt a visiting fellow in the Washington Institute of near east policy. Has been in iraq turkey. And to albania dr. Rick brennan is the senior political scientist. From the ran corporation. And prior to joining ranked. He served as a senior advise for the u. S. Military in iraq for five years. And the studies for the new and American Security previously she served in as the staff the National Security council. A professional staff member on the senate as well. We will welcome them all and without objection witnesses will have a full prepared statement as part of the record they have have days to submit questions and staple and materials for the record. Ambassador jeffrey if we can start with you and ask to you summarize your remarks in five minutes. Thank you sir thank you mr. Sherman and members of the committee. It is very important to note what we are doing today as you said, considering an authorization for the use of military force it is fitting and just that they would untake the grave decisions as this. I am proud to be here today to provide whatever help that i can. Will the me start with isis. They have received a lot of help from the three or four of you have spoke end isis is a unique threat for reason thats have you laid out i will not repeat them again. We have not seen anything like this before particularly the hold on territory. And conventional capabilities of those in the region. Secondly, isis is a threat and a unique sense it is coming an a time of even more disruption in the middle east and reflects longer term trends and dangers in the region a system with the legit region populations and reege nails language movements it will require those to free themselves of isis and of the thinking that is behind it. As mr. Sherman discussed a few minutes ago. They will have to do this we cant reach into the social structures of that part of the world. We tried it. It did not work very well we cant expect for them to do that much. They are engaged in the conflicts and the struggles within their own societies. And thus the president s goal to degrade and eventually to destroy isis with america taking the lead is the correct mission. The campaign improblem is the basically sound. And the campaign has had considerable success of late from the push back and containment to others and the further success in the near future would actually be quite possible still this campaign could begin a major ground offensive operation. It has not done that yet. And questions will remain open as representative ross said. We have a lot of questions about syria and what we have learned from vietnam is that you cannot defeat an group that has a refuge and neighboring country. Will you have to do something about syria. And you cant do anything about syria without having a better policy towards alassad. We dont know whose boots on the ground will actually dig the guys out of places like fallujah and mosul or what the day after will look like these are very tough questions. In some we should not assume that time is on our side. Given an extraordinary threat. I urge the administration to move faster take more ricks and apply more resources. If our commanders on the ground want it. And that is the question they should have the Weapons Systems that they need if they need observers on the ground and advisories teams out with local forces. They should get that. Despite the higher risks and costs. Likewise if diplomats will need more active top level u. S. Pressure on partners and players including iran we should follow their advice. And in considering this authorization, i urge the congress to give the administration maximum flexibility in timing and the use of forces as one that has spend time in iraq. And vietnam. Have i been against longterm insurgency campaigns. Very tried them repeatedly. They have not worked. And if necessary to meet the president s very valid mission of defeating isis. We should not rule out the operations like u. S. Ground action to liberate najaf and fallujah in 2004. As i mope it will not come to that, such a step could become necessary. The thing to avoid above all sells to put the limitations on actions to lead to us containing not defeating and destroying isis that will be seen as a victory against the us west and the interest National Order and it will stimulate the support throughout the world for this all of youring organization. Thank you so much. Thank you ambassador. Doctor . Chairman royce. And Ranking Members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to talk about this growing threat of isis my argument is in four key points. The key threat that we would face today is not from isis. Alqaeda or another group or genocide. But a radical islamist ideology to give the groups pause and for this we will need a grand strategy to apply to all means of u. S. National power to address it to understand the scale of the uaffssee t nee f d and according to one military he is machlt it has cost 50 of the u. S. Casualties in iraq in the eight years that we were there. My is he point is that it is more than just a terrorist group. But a revolutionary insurgent organization that seeks to establish new social political, sxek economic order without regard to internationally sanctioned state boundaries and a rapid success in iraq and syria has caused an explosion of volunteers from all over the world that have a journey to fight in places like syria. Iraq. Somalia. Libya. Afghanistan and pakistan. By 2012 wet years of experience fighting u. S. And Iraqi Military forces and two Years Experience fighting military and iranian proxy mill issue as isis is an experienced and hardened military force in january 2014, isis used a growing alienation of iraq as the tunit to seize control of fallujah located just 50 miles west of baghdad following this early success, isis began an infiltration of iraq to set the stage. And by 2014. It was a control of the approximately 35,000 square miles of iraq and syria a landmass that is approximately the size of the state of indiana. And had begun to establish structures of governance and now calls itself the Islamic State. And contributing to the failure of the Iraqi Military in 2014. And many of these were known in advance. One key factor was malachys he have st to consolidate and control the eye rncy military and Security Forces to replace officers with those that were loyal to him and then the corruption to those political military establishments. Also it is important to highlight that from 20099 to 2011. Of that the iraq military had significant short falls and virtually all areas that would be needed to conduct complex military operations without direct u. S. Military assistance if it was a reason that general lloyd austin and mullen recommended the residual force in iraq between 14,000. 20,000 the fourth point is that the administrations response to isis was a necessary first step to blunlt assault. However in my professional opinion, as a career Army Infantry officer and military plan near spent five years in iraq between 2006 and 2011. That the senior advise for the u. S. Military our current efforts are insufficient to enable iraq to regain control of the territory and key cities of will fallujah to critical and mouz mosul. Will both in iraq and syria and to what they are doing would required to achieve success. And first. Develop the more robust advisory using conventional sources and the for thats we have there. They are now insufficient due to rapidly giving isis time to develop second enhantz size and the scope of the control mission. And third to Operations Forces with attached tactical error and other Coalition Ground forces out to the level to enable them to assist in the conduct of the enhanlsd air campaign. And finally to deploy the special Operations Forces to conduct targeted Counterterrorism Missions in iraq and syria in conclusion, there is an understandable reluctance to once again put american Ground Forces in iraq and if the threat to the region and to the United States is as grafshgs using the wording and amf and proposed amf this. Is a mission that would be undertaken as ambassador jeffries said we will not have constraints, we will have to be used as Ground Forces if we will have success. Thank you dr. Brennan thank you chairman royce key member of the he is teamed committee. Thank you for the having this hearing and inviting me to testify i would like to discuss three key questions that americans are asking today about the amf and threat that isis will pose. The questions are simple and come down to what why and how . What is isis they are asking though isis has roots in alqaeda offshoot in both brutality and in the battlefield successes. It will represent a new type of threat many have been articulated by the come itemy. And the savagery of the core of the ideology. After 14 years of the u. S. Military engagement americans have a right to a strong, clear and convincing answer to this question. Why should our