Transcripts For CSPAN2 Kevin Gutzman Discusses Thomas Jeffer

Saddled with peter radcliffe. Peter is a great friend to this foundation and a personal friend as well and one of the great scholars of Thomas Jefferson. Kevin is also a jd from the university of texas school of law. Hes written five books ive got another book, virginias American Revolution to the republic, 1776, 21840, that is published in 2007 in James Madison and the making of america published. It is a topic ive played that is not than britain. The president s Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and james monroe. Kevin will speak today on his most recent book, Thomas Jefferson revolutionary at revolutionary struggle remake america. Please join me in welcoming someone. [applause] he was a very significant legislature. He was developing in five chapters on major themes in his statesmanship, this contention of his radical mass and his success as a radical statesmen. But to a minute calling jefferson a radical . Start with the true wisdom of historians from an dukes dont immigrate. Another way to understand that. If you expect to become the queen, you are not at to decide a restaurant in australia. Jefferson did something that was like the latter. When Thomas Jefferson was born in 1743 virginia in the piedmont in what was then more or less the western boundary of euroamerican expansion in north america. He was born more or less a prince. His father was by far the most important influential man in his whole county. Andrew jefferson of whom thomas was very proud throughout his life had authority in his county that rested on four bases. The first was a tie between virginia and the United Kingdom. Most particularly, the Common Ground had a monarchy. Sackett was the second was the feudal Land Holdings that kept very few people on earth a large share of todays virginia. Historian named holly brewer who then was at North Carolina State University calculated 20 years ago that in 1776 when he was drafting the independents. He was held by 85 families. 85 people on two thirds of todays state and for people who arent from virginia, a little bit of that is fair, the state in which i live in connecticut has eight counties. The more or less 300 square miles that were on fight each of those 85 families in virginia and 1776, 300 square miles would be about half of todays connecticut counties. So in other words, that is the kind of landholding that would have 16 people owning the most native connecticut. Jeffersons father was one of these people. The landholding concentration from which Peter Jefferson who benefited was perpetuated by english legal doctrines to virginia in the 17th century. The doctrine said essentially they would inherit the entirety of one of these days. Regardless how many offspring, besides that, there is also the legal. Read which said that the current holder could not alienate. Imagine yourself one of these princes. You own 300 square miles of virginia. You think well, i could do with 280 square miles. I would like to have the palace. You could not sell a 20 square miles because the doctrine of intel that you could not alienate that land figures and is entitled to it after you. So what this meant was generation after generation youre going to have the same few families controlling the entire landscape, physical and metaphorical of virginia. Or so monarchy, second base land tenure is in the landholding those concentrated in those few hands. The third goal work of the social and political as bad as the Peter Jefferson was the established church, the church of england which of course was the church of virginia from the very first year that there was colonial virginia 1619. Virginia has gone about the business immediately is thinking search is going to be our church. If you are Peter Jefferson, you knew thomas could assume that you are going to be a member of the burgess says. The colonial north america was never an anglican bishop. In theory this is an Episcopal Church in this. It was a landowners church, and virginia who controlled the local committees that ran the local parishes and peter jeff senn was foremost in all tomorrow. Thomas could expect that one day he would be a comet to and there came a time when he was. The fourth bulwark of the jefferson families that is of course was slavery, which meant that the same few land barons who were possessors also as many people were at the top of the demographic latter as well. Not Thomas Jefferson, what does this have to do with him being a radical . Thomas jefferson took substantial steps to undermine or eliminate each of those of his class. So first off, we think of him primarily as the president , but next is chief author of the declaration of independence. That was about severing the ties between goodenow state of of virginia and english monarchy. This came as a surprise, the fact that people like jefferson and in places like virginia supported this, came as a surprise to people in the United Kingdom precisely because they thought if you were a slave owner in north america, if you or somebody like Thomas Jefferson, you were reminded of the monarchy. After all, what was slavery about . It was about application of white male forest and the chief source of white male forest in support of slavery in virginia was the king of england. So you show back to suffer this tie, i think has to be considered a radical step. Secondly, what about these land tenure is. 1776, as soon as it was possible, Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Virginia Legislature adopted abolishing the entail. In fact, jefferson substitute for this sad that all children would inherit equally. Children, not male children, children would inherit equally. This was radical. In 1776, we have 85 families who want to thirds of virginia. By the time Thomas Jefferson, the author of this statute 50 years later in 1826, these landholdings have begun to be broken not an impact msn mobile plantation seeds, some of the foremost temptation houses in virginia have been abandoned by them. This was not a sad development from the perspective of someone like Thomas Jefferson because hed nail that you could not have a truly Republican Society with two thirds of the states. What kind of a republic can you have . You cant have any kind of political equality where you have such an admirable concentration of economic power in so few hands and jefferson was the one who was primarily responsible for the elimination of the feudal land tenure is in virginia. Thirdly, when it comes to the church of england, the Episcopal Church after the revolution, still known as the Episcopal Church there, the Episcopalian Church of jefferson was the one who took the lead in the mood to abolish the state status of the church of england beginning in 1777. He was the leading member of the count of advertisers and the committee of the legislature that was charged with the task of writing proposals for changes to virginias colonial law and case law. Jefferson wrote the bill for establishing religious freedom. The bill was on a frankly very aggressively antiestablishment preamble that began by saying god at the base of my demand for a end through the entirety of the preamble, jefferson laid the groundwork of his religion policy on the most radical reformation understanding of his or her Church State Relations in western europe and the affect of official church is on peoples faith in their proper days. So he also contended that government really couldnt worst people to be christian anyway. All you can do is make them hypocrites are liars. What you mean by that . He meant the match and in 1780 massachusetts adopted by today is the oldest operative written constitution and the world. It was written chiefly by john adams and did include the provision that the governor of massachusetts had to swear his religious belief. Well, from jeffersons point of view, imagine this. Some fellow as he let the governor of massachusetts and they come to him and says youve been a lack it. You have to search your religious belief. Is he going to say about that to be governor, but i dont really have that or is he going to say i swear. Great. So jeffersons point was government by telling you what you had to say about religion couldnt actually make you a subscriber to that religion. It could make you a hypocrite, make you a liar. Would be absurd to people that you are a hypocrite or a buyerfor much of this is undesirable in dallas. Jefferson said later in life that the most difficult political conflict in which he had ever been involved with the establishment of the official church in virginia. It involves them in a longrunning quarrel with some of his best friend and close political allies, john page, jordan with who was an episcopalian, not really thrilled with the establishment and so on. Push this idea anyway, ultimately he was not the fellow that got through the house of delegates by that time. Instead, that was his friend madison. Madison realized what an emotional investment jefferson had in this idea of religious freedom. When it was passed in the senate sent word to jefferson that time was in france and said that he fans did they had to rest forever in the idea of making laws of the mind of man and jefferson wrote that but other europeans are quite admiring of this new american policy. Jefferson was trying to be chief tie. He liked for people in europe to know what the americans were doing and he liked them to be envious. A lot of people were envious of this week, which seemed to be common sense, too. Jefferson was the fellow who made it the case that being a member and out samarra county was not going to be so significant as it had been before. Not to say that it is possible to religion, but possible to this one lead status. Finally ,com,com ma fourthly on the question of slavery, jefferson today is often scored a somebody who couldve done more more on the question of slavery and i suppose it is true of anyone that he could earn more, that he wasnt completely successful in his own time. I think the ledger has two sides in this regard. On one side, yes, jefferson inherited slaves. He was a spin bread and that ultimately could find them to be in option which was horrible to suffer. All of this should be remembered in connection with jefferson and slavery. On the other hand, jefferson laid out in significant moral argument against slavery. He was the president to argue in 180671806 but in 1807, should pass a law for the importation of slaves in north america that would be effective on the earliest date allowed by the u. S. Constitution. So congress did bar slaves in 18 away. He was an important factor for his role was an important factor in the adoption of the scored mens, which banned slavery from the midwest. There is a complication there. We will come back to that. There were other things that jefferson did in regards laboring to make his record in this regard at worst minutes. It was next. So in public he would say that he was opposed to slavery, couldnt justify it and took steps against it in private. He did continue to benefit from it and we dont want to ignore that. The point is my point, not everybodys point, but my point in this connection is that by the time people like jefferson passed from this world, slavery already has been a sum of their opponents in virginia recognized, put on the train to extinction. But i think its a very important thing for jefferson to a gun. You dont hear Queen Elizabeth arguing. So i think that if you take these four crops of jefferson social and political as bad as, it is perfectly fair to say that he was a radical statesman indeed. I want to take up some of these questions in a bit more detail. So after having introduced this topic by talking about his book the main areas in which jefferson can consider to be a radical kind of ignores the question of some of the major changes he was responsible for. I think if you want to evaluate jeffersons record is legislature, you have to think of some of them, too. For example, he was the fellow that had the idea that america should have a decibel current date. Every day was and american money, you are benefiting from jeffersons conception. This idea of eventually would sweep the world and it wasnt in the 1980s but finally the United Kingdom adopted decimal currency. So today we take for granted of course that would be true. It wasnt true and jefferson time. Jefferson was a fellow also had the idea that architecture, public architecture is served a didactic purpose. He had the idea that virginia is public architecture and architecture in general is a lead status for people who live in those gigantic houses and it gave a mistaken message about with the Colonial Government ought to be structured and so on and he thought it would be right for classical architecture to be substituted for the kinds of buildings that virginians had dug for themselves and the colonial period. And so, he had biased his fellow Virginia Political leaders that they have to follow the greek and roman examples. When he was in france, he saw an ancient roman copy of a temple he quite admired and ultimately that became the model for the capital, the virginia capitol in richmond. He also played a role in initiating the habit of americans using classical models for their federal architecture as well. Of course kind of left aside the fact that when they say the capital of richmond, we dont want to forget that having richmond be the capital was also jeffersons idea. So the motivation is interesting. One reason one justification offered at the time was from a Military Point of view, it is exposed a future military conflict should happen to be with the british. But on the other hand, he also was somebody who i the ongoing strength of the tidewater acoustical episcopal aristocracy would be weakened one way to do that would be to move the capital away from williamsburg or jefferson is responsible for doing not. There are numerous such examples that might offer a jefferson ongoing widely affect being often overlooked successes as legislators. Now that to what i was saying before. My book takes up five areas that jeffersons statesmanship that ran through his career. First chapter, which is also the longest chapter is about the history we now know as federalism. We might call it decentralized government for more localized government or in catholic theology they call it principled a subsidiary. Jefferson wouldve known that term. If he had, he wouldnt have used it. But the thing is, jefferson first came to continental attention in 1774 as the author of what he hoped would be instructions for virginias delicate for the first continental congress, what became the pamphlet of review for the rights of british america. But he argued in what he have to be instructions for virginias congressman was bad the colony of virginia and the colonies generally were tied politically and constitutionally to the United Kingdom only through the Common Ground. That is, his argument or maybe you should pay his assertion was the parliament in westminster was a foreign body that was foreign to our constitution been unknown to our laws. There is an assertion there that the colonies have been their own constitution. This is not the british theory. The idea that the parliament is foreign to the north american colonies constitution and laws also not british theory. Instead, they were living with sir williams contention that there was one common father and of the British Empire that was parliament was westminster. So jefferson as well, we have this Common Ground and common crime has saved you functions for all the different parts of the empire that no part can perform for itself, such as productive diplomatic relations on its behalf, conduct deemed military operations on the empires we have good when it comes to local issues, then the local legislatures, whether in the bahamas or connecticut or westminster, they are responsible for the local inhabitants, not for say people in virginia. So, jefferson begins his career as a noted politician in north america with this argument, essentially for decentralized government or federalism, the idea that there is a Common Center with a few enumerated powers. This is an idea to which he would combat over and over. In fact, if you look at the very last letter he ever wrote his best friend in the world and close political ally, James Madison in 1885 comment it had a paragraph where he famously says, take care of me when dad. A very sad kind of memorialization of the fact that hes always loved madison and he thought that his friendship was one of the best parts. The rest of the letter before that was about this idea that we virginians must resist the revivified Federalist Party program being pushed by president John Quincy Adams and right back to the old argument 1774. Most government authorities in the hands of the virginians and we are not going to tolerate having the federal government legislate for us in areas over which we have not conceded they should have any of our day. The idea of this that jefferson had her state out in 1774 under the british rule in north america remained consistent but under the articles of confederation under the u. S. Constitution, jeffersons point of view, all of these external not outside virginia, they are external. Of these external authorities have inside virginia or virginias convenience. Sue if he famously said also in the declaration of the independence, if the people decide the Thomas Jefferson<\/a>. Kevin is also a jd from the university of texas school of law. Hes written five books ive got another book, virginias American Revolution<\/a> to the republic, 1776, 21840, that is published in 2007 in James Madison<\/a> and the making of america published. It is a topic ive played that is not than britain. The president s Thomas Jefferson<\/a>, James Madison<\/a> and james monroe. Kevin will speak today on his most recent book, Thomas Jefferson<\/a> revolutionary at revolutionary struggle remake america. Please join me in welcoming someone. [applause] he was a very significant legislature. He was developing in five chapters on major themes in his statesmanship, this contention of his radical mass and his success as a radical statesmen. But to a minute calling jefferson a radical . Start with the true wisdom of historians from an dukes dont immigrate. Another way to understand that. If you expect to become the queen, you are not at to decide a restaurant in australia. Jefferson did something that was like the latter. When Thomas Jefferson<\/a> was born in 1743 virginia in the piedmont in what was then more or less the western boundary of euroamerican expansion in north america. He was born more or less a prince. His father was by far the most important influential man in his whole county. Andrew jefferson of whom thomas was very proud throughout his life had authority in his county that rested on four bases. The first was a tie between virginia and the United Kingdom<\/a>. Most particularly, the Common Ground<\/a> had a monarchy. Sackett was the second was the feudal Land Holdings<\/a> that kept very few people on earth a large share of todays virginia. Historian named holly brewer who then was at North Carolina<\/a> State University<\/a> calculated 20 years ago that in 1776 when he was drafting the independents. He was held by 85 families. 85 people on two thirds of todays state and for people who arent from virginia, a little bit of that is fair, the state in which i live in connecticut has eight counties. The more or less 300 square miles that were on fight each of those 85 families in virginia and 1776, 300 square miles would be about half of todays connecticut counties. So in other words, that is the kind of landholding that would have 16 people owning the most native connecticut. Jeffersons father was one of these people. The landholding concentration from which Peter Jefferson<\/a> who benefited was perpetuated by english legal doctrines to virginia in the 17th century. The doctrine said essentially they would inherit the entirety of one of these days. Regardless how many offspring, besides that, there is also the legal. Read which said that the current holder could not alienate. Imagine yourself one of these princes. You own 300 square miles of virginia. You think well, i could do with 280 square miles. I would like to have the palace. You could not sell a 20 square miles because the doctrine of intel that you could not alienate that land figures and is entitled to it after you. So what this meant was generation after generation youre going to have the same few families controlling the entire landscape, physical and metaphorical of virginia. Or so monarchy, second base land tenure is in the landholding those concentrated in those few hands. The third goal work of the social and political as bad as the Peter Jefferson<\/a> was the established church, the church of england which of course was the church of virginia from the very first year that there was colonial virginia 1619. Virginia has gone about the business immediately is thinking search is going to be our church. If you are Peter Jefferson<\/a>, you knew thomas could assume that you are going to be a member of the burgess says. The colonial north america was never an anglican bishop. In theory this is an Episcopal Church<\/a> in this. It was a landowners church, and virginia who controlled the local committees that ran the local parishes and peter jeff senn was foremost in all tomorrow. Thomas could expect that one day he would be a comet to and there came a time when he was. The fourth bulwark of the jefferson families that is of course was slavery, which meant that the same few land barons who were possessors also as many people were at the top of the demographic latter as well. Not Thomas Jefferson<\/a>, what does this have to do with him being a radical . Thomas jefferson took substantial steps to undermine or eliminate each of those of his class. So first off, we think of him primarily as the president , but next is chief author of the declaration of independence. That was about severing the ties between goodenow state of of virginia and english monarchy. This came as a surprise, the fact that people like jefferson and in places like virginia supported this, came as a surprise to people in the United Kingdom<\/a> precisely because they thought if you were a slave owner in north america, if you or somebody like Thomas Jefferson<\/a>, you were reminded of the monarchy. After all, what was slavery about . It was about application of white male forest and the chief source of white male forest in support of slavery in virginia was the king of england. So you show back to suffer this tie, i think has to be considered a radical step. Secondly, what about these land tenure is. 1776, as soon as it was possible, Thomas Jefferson<\/a> wrote in the Virginia Legislature<\/a> adopted abolishing the entail. In fact, jefferson substitute for this sad that all children would inherit equally. Children, not male children, children would inherit equally. This was radical. In 1776, we have 85 families who want to thirds of virginia. By the time Thomas Jefferson<\/a>, the author of this statute 50 years later in 1826, these landholdings have begun to be broken not an impact msn mobile plantation seeds, some of the foremost temptation houses in virginia have been abandoned by them. This was not a sad development from the perspective of someone like Thomas Jefferson<\/a> because hed nail that you could not have a truly Republican Society<\/a> with two thirds of the states. What kind of a republic can you have . You cant have any kind of political equality where you have such an admirable concentration of economic power in so few hands and jefferson was the one who was primarily responsible for the elimination of the feudal land tenure is in virginia. Thirdly, when it comes to the church of england, the Episcopal Church<\/a> after the revolution, still known as the Episcopal Church<\/a> there, the Episcopalian Church<\/a> of jefferson was the one who took the lead in the mood to abolish the state status of the church of england beginning in 1777. He was the leading member of the count of advertisers and the committee of the legislature that was charged with the task of writing proposals for changes to virginias colonial law and case law. Jefferson wrote the bill for establishing religious freedom. The bill was on a frankly very aggressively antiestablishment preamble that began by saying god at the base of my demand for a end through the entirety of the preamble, jefferson laid the groundwork of his religion policy on the most radical reformation understanding of his or her Church State Relations<\/a> in western europe and the affect of official church is on peoples faith in their proper days. So he also contended that government really couldnt worst people to be christian anyway. All you can do is make them hypocrites are liars. What you mean by that . He meant the match and in 1780 massachusetts adopted by today is the oldest operative written constitution and the world. It was written chiefly by john adams and did include the provision that the governor of massachusetts had to swear his religious belief. Well, from jeffersons point of view, imagine this. Some fellow as he let the governor of massachusetts and they come to him and says youve been a lack it. You have to search your religious belief. Is he going to say about that to be governor, but i dont really have that or is he going to say i swear. Great. So jeffersons point was government by telling you what you had to say about religion couldnt actually make you a subscriber to that religion. It could make you a hypocrite, make you a liar. Would be absurd to people that you are a hypocrite or a buyerfor much of this is undesirable in dallas. Jefferson said later in life that the most difficult political conflict in which he had ever been involved with the establishment of the official church in virginia. It involves them in a longrunning quarrel with some of his best friend and close political allies, john page, jordan with who was an episcopalian, not really thrilled with the establishment and so on. Push this idea anyway, ultimately he was not the fellow that got through the house of delegates by that time. Instead, that was his friend madison. Madison realized what an emotional investment jefferson had in this idea of religious freedom. When it was passed in the senate sent word to jefferson that time was in france and said that he fans did they had to rest forever in the idea of making laws of the mind of man and jefferson wrote that but other europeans are quite admiring of this new american policy. Jefferson was trying to be chief tie. He liked for people in europe to know what the americans were doing and he liked them to be envious. A lot of people were envious of this week, which seemed to be common sense, too. Jefferson was the fellow who made it the case that being a member and out samarra county was not going to be so significant as it had been before. Not to say that it is possible to religion, but possible to this one lead status. Finally ,com,com ma fourthly on the question of slavery, jefferson today is often scored a somebody who couldve done more more on the question of slavery and i suppose it is true of anyone that he could earn more, that he wasnt completely successful in his own time. I think the ledger has two sides in this regard. On one side, yes, jefferson inherited slaves. He was a spin bread and that ultimately could find them to be in option which was horrible to suffer. All of this should be remembered in connection with jefferson and slavery. On the other hand, jefferson laid out in significant moral argument against slavery. He was the president to argue in 180671806 but in 1807, should pass a law for the importation of slaves in north america that would be effective on the earliest date allowed by the u. S. Constitution. So congress did bar slaves in 18 away. He was an important factor for his role was an important factor in the adoption of the scored mens, which banned slavery from the midwest. There is a complication there. We will come back to that. There were other things that jefferson did in regards laboring to make his record in this regard at worst minutes. It was next. So in public he would say that he was opposed to slavery, couldnt justify it and took steps against it in private. He did continue to benefit from it and we dont want to ignore that. The point is my point, not everybodys point, but my point in this connection is that by the time people like jefferson passed from this world, slavery already has been a sum of their opponents in virginia recognized, put on the train to extinction. But i think its a very important thing for jefferson to a gun. You dont hear Queen Elizabeth<\/a> arguing. So i think that if you take these four crops of jefferson social and political as bad as, it is perfectly fair to say that he was a radical statesman indeed. I want to take up some of these questions in a bit more detail. So after having introduced this topic by talking about his book the main areas in which jefferson can consider to be a radical kind of ignores the question of some of the major changes he was responsible for. I think if you want to evaluate jeffersons record is legislature, you have to think of some of them, too. For example, he was the fellow that had the idea that america should have a decibel current date. Every day was and american money, you are benefiting from jeffersons conception. This idea of eventually would sweep the world and it wasnt in the 1980s but finally the United Kingdom<\/a> adopted decimal currency. So today we take for granted of course that would be true. It wasnt true and jefferson time. Jefferson was a fellow also had the idea that architecture, public architecture is served a didactic purpose. He had the idea that virginia is public architecture and architecture in general is a lead status for people who live in those gigantic houses and it gave a mistaken message about with the Colonial Government<\/a> ought to be structured and so on and he thought it would be right for classical architecture to be substituted for the kinds of buildings that virginians had dug for themselves and the colonial period. And so, he had biased his fellow Virginia Political<\/a> leaders that they have to follow the greek and roman examples. When he was in france, he saw an ancient roman copy of a temple he quite admired and ultimately that became the model for the capital, the virginia capitol in richmond. He also played a role in initiating the habit of americans using classical models for their federal architecture as well. Of course kind of left aside the fact that when they say the capital of richmond, we dont want to forget that having richmond be the capital was also jeffersons idea. So the motivation is interesting. One reason one justification offered at the time was from a Military Point<\/a> of view, it is exposed a future military conflict should happen to be with the british. But on the other hand, he also was somebody who i the ongoing strength of the tidewater acoustical episcopal aristocracy would be weakened one way to do that would be to move the capital away from williamsburg or jefferson is responsible for doing not. There are numerous such examples that might offer a jefferson ongoing widely affect being often overlooked successes as legislators. Now that to what i was saying before. My book takes up five areas that jeffersons statesmanship that ran through his career. First chapter, which is also the longest chapter is about the history we now know as federalism. We might call it decentralized government for more localized government or in catholic theology they call it principled a subsidiary. Jefferson wouldve known that term. If he had, he wouldnt have used it. But the thing is, jefferson first came to continental attention in 1774 as the author of what he hoped would be instructions for virginias delicate for the first continental congress, what became the pamphlet of review for the rights of british america. But he argued in what he have to be instructions for virginias congressman was bad the colony of virginia and the colonies generally were tied politically and constitutionally to the United Kingdom<\/a> only through the Common Ground<\/a>. That is, his argument or maybe you should pay his assertion was the parliament in westminster was a foreign body that was foreign to our constitution been unknown to our laws. There is an assertion there that the colonies have been their own constitution. This is not the british theory. The idea that the parliament is foreign to the north american colonies constitution and laws also not british theory. Instead, they were living with sir williams contention that there was one common father and of the British Empire<\/a> that was parliament was westminster. So jefferson as well, we have this Common Ground<\/a> and common crime has saved you functions for all the different parts of the empire that no part can perform for itself, such as productive diplomatic relations on its behalf, conduct deemed military operations on the empires we have good when it comes to local issues, then the local legislatures, whether in the bahamas or connecticut or westminster, they are responsible for the local inhabitants, not for say people in virginia. So, jefferson begins his career as a noted politician in north america with this argument, essentially for decentralized government or federalism, the idea that there is a Common Center<\/a> with a few enumerated powers. This is an idea to which he would combat over and over. In fact, if you look at the very last letter he ever wrote his best friend in the world and close political ally, James Madison<\/a> in 1885 comment it had a paragraph where he famously says, take care of me when dad. A very sad kind of memorialization of the fact that hes always loved madison and he thought that his friendship was one of the best parts. The rest of the letter before that was about this idea that we virginians must resist the revivified Federalist Party<\/a> program being pushed by president John Quincy Adams<\/a> and right back to the old argument 1774. Most government authorities in the hands of the virginians and we are not going to tolerate having the federal government legislate for us in areas over which we have not conceded they should have any of our day. The idea of this that jefferson had her state out in 1774 under the british rule in north america remained consistent but under the articles of confederation under the u. S. Constitution, jeffersons point of view, all of these external not outside virginia, they are external. Of these external authorities have inside virginia or virginias convenience. Sue if he famously said also in the declaration of the independence, if the people decide the Foreign Government<\/a>, called the u. S. Government or Foreign Government<\/a> at one point. If the Foreign Government<\/a> isnt serving the purposes we would hope that was there, then we are entitled to replace it. He said that about the federal government. He had this idea throughout. People who are familiar with his political career will of course know that there were times when jeffers said nearly led his Political Party<\/a> into the violent resistance of federal policy, most famous of course came at the end of the 1790s when he organized resistance, i think it was going to be violent resistance to the sedition act of 1978. Jeffersons vision of this relationship between the Central Authority<\/a> of an virginia again i dont think ever changed at all. In fact, if you compare the argument he made in 1825 in the last letter of madison which covered resolutions he agreed that he wanted the General Assembly<\/a> to adopt the same effect, if you compare those resolutions to what he said about the British Parliament<\/a> in 1974, you will not find very much different at all. This idea of virginia as he said this over and over, my country and these other places if they want to be friendly, that is one of domain names of his political career. A second important game of his political career i mentioned before was the establishment of a state church in virginia. Once madison in particular had been successful in eliminating the religious establishment of virginia, they didnt stop there. They had the idea that this principle of freedom of religion as we now call it out to be a university principle. So, famously of course the jet or sinless president , he wrote the clearest statement he issued that this idea. He received word from the dan very baptist association, actually dan barry is the town where my university is located. They were happy he was elected president and he thought connecticut bill had been establishment to support. And then connecticut and you could he punished in various ways if you werent a member of the Congregationalist Church<\/a> and so on. Jefferson wrote back and said i contemplate with sovereign reference and established a wall of separation between church and state. He thought this was a principle that all the states sought to adopt. He thought there was really no good arguments against it. Notice, he also thought the point now shes making a couple minutes ago, he also thought that remained from each state for itself. So the fact that jefferson believed in this principle of freedom of religion and the fact he believes the federal government had been denied any right to establish religious requirements or to elect state church did not mean that he didnt think that the federal government helped states they had to allow freedom of religion. So this federal principle remained the underlying aim of his statesmanship, even while he advocated the general print will see how to adopt. Of course, his friend madison took the same view that was not at these questions with a lot of retirement. Im often considering whatnots in jefferson said that led to the question, well, jefferson helped him write that because theyre thinking is so wafted similar. In the area Church State Relations<\/a>, it seems to me that madison is moving in jeffersons direction. When madison was an older man, he remained an older man for a very long time. When madison was an older man, he wrote what is now called the memorandum of serious questions, one of which was the relationship between the government and religion and in his memorandum, madison said he thought during the war of 1812 admin on this establishment shouldnt be telling people are even asking people in a particular way to pray at all. It shouldnt happen at all. He also came to the conclusion, madison did that he didnt think there should we chaplain in the congress that he didnt think there should be chaplains in the military. You have the same reasoning. If i may congressmen and i prescribe to religion ask or no religion and today the chaplain represents religion y, not only i. , but my constituents, we are being made to pay for this religion to which we dont describe. This gets back to violating the fundamental principle people shouldnt participate in which they dont describe. Madison who says this, but these things blakely were the fruit of long conversation between the two of them and they move in that direction over time. Madison was the president. He wrote to veto messages on the question of the establishment clause is and to what is now the establishment that jeffersonian was bonds, to. Was jeffersons answer to the slavery issue. It is a very foreign idea to us in 2017. Jeffersojefferson come in, and , notes in the state of virginia, three different points discuss maybe you dont know but i will tell you in jeffersons book notes in the stat notes inf virginia was conceived as a set of answers about answers hed received from a french diplomat. So the french diplomat sends inquiries to the leading men in all states and the ones that received them in virginia. He then, jefferson, rearranges them and instead of making them two or three sentence answers to these inquiries, he makes them into a several hundred page book. The book is fascinating. Most historians tell you it is the most important book in the century. Its full of all kinds of interesting things and interesting issues. Its also emblematic of the way that people were thinking about geography and human geography and other questions like that. In these inquiries he touched on, jefferson said a couple of things. One of the quiries is what is it about your manners that is peculiar and he wrote back and must have been thinking what kind of question is that. So he wrote back saying while, i dont know what is peculiar about our manners. Maybe one thing you find peculiar is by slaveowning, then he went into the question of how does slaveowning affect the master. His answer was generally for the public citizenship and how is it unfitting for the American Public<\/a> citizenship. Well, from his earliest days to give voice to his passions he liked nautical metaphors. I think of a ship bobbing on heavy waves. What does he mean by that . He goes on to say if you are born into a slaveowning family from your youth, you are able to command adults. Not only are you able to command them, but you are able to do it in the most emotional kind of way. This he said is unfitting for a public citizenship. Because public citizenship involves give and take on the assumption that we are equal if you have an equal right and capacity to contribute to the common deliberation, then so do i. But if i am a 3yearold slave master telling an old man what to do, i dont learn this lesson. So jefferson thinks theres a kind of distortion of virginia slaveowners personality thaslavt is in effect of being slaveowners. The other before i leave. Com and not everybody agreed with this. One of jeffersons closest allies, john taylor of carolina, who is a significant political thinker and writer besides being a significant officeholder into period from the 1790s to the 1820s later answered this in the book of his own. This isnt true. I thought, but my slaves do know what angers me more than my horse knows what angers me. So one thing you can see in jeffersons description of it is that he, unlike taylor, he is affected by the common humanity that he shares with the slaves, and taylor apparently once to see them as kind of implements. If you go to the other part of the book where he discusses slavery at length, he talks about the legal status of slaves in virginia and the relationship between the enslaved and he talks about the natural capacities there lies the speculation. Its what jefferson thinks and what the virginia colleagues in the Republican Party<\/a> think. It may be congenital. That means he says i hazard that they are physically and mentally fear compare inferior. This is environmental. So, if jefferson and their assembly and his passage says ive never encountered a great poet. I never encountered a great slave musician. He might think where would they get the opportunity to be a musician. The jeffersons answer is if you look at the history of the greeks and romans and find the historians but we dont let them learn to read, so the point is jefferson takes this view and he also says im open to receiving evidence to the contrary and through the balance of his life he does repeatedly receive information that mitigates against this implication that he has observed between white and black people as genetic. When he does, for example he hired the first black person ever to be an employee of the federal government who was a surveyor aimed Benjamin Banneker<\/a> who was involved in laying out the district of columbia. Banneker essentially was a drag in the metric calculation. He said i am happy to receive this. Im happy with it. Im glad you thought that i should know about this. And i want you to know that nobody can be happier to learn when they come to the conclusion that the black people are equal as i would be. On the other hand, he wrote to another fellow and said if you did this calculation, so hes a bit skeptical but he always maintains this posture. Hes talking about this with madison so who knows where we are going to end up with this. Jefferson, how however also says it is impossible to have a biracial society. He says i think it is a given. Speaking from White Virginians<\/a> he says we are prejudiced against them. He says they hate us and we give them new reasons every day. So, if they are going to be freed, the slaves, if they hate the White Virginians<\/a> and they are prejudiced and giving the reasons to hate them every day, what solution is there. If you hear people talking nowadays, when they are free have to find a place for them to be. So his conclusion is they should be freed and in order to achieve that, we have to send them somewhere else. And this is the concept that will be called cultivation. This is the largely foreign concept now. In the 19th century, this idea struck many people as perfectly reasonable. There are specific groups that are important like the National Organization<\/a> for women, the National Rifle<\/a> association, the National Abortion<\/a> Rights Action<\/a> league. People all over the country do political lobbying. They raised a lot of money to pursue their Political Activities<\/a> and so on. In the 19th century, the group was called the American Colonization Society<\/a>. It had tens of thousands of members. Its first president was former president chief author of the constitution, James Madison<\/a>. And among the other members were people like president john tyl tyler, the aforementioned john taylor of North Carolina<\/a> and people like that. So, one way of understanding the American Colonization Society<\/a> is this is the way that the later abolitionists were going to describe it as this was slaveowners antislavery. So, we will do something about it if we have enough money. But, madison seems to have had the idea that this was a practical solution. That is, that the fund raising ultimately to the acquisition of a particular place to which free people from the United States<\/a> could be sent. Ultimately, during jeffersons lifetime while his friend and former lieutenant james monro was president , the United States<\/a> sponsored the founding of liberias capital was still named monrovia and the separatists were freed black people from the United States<\/a>. So by this time this was not a feasible solution to this problem and one might object nowadays they should have had the idea of a biracial society but jefferson didnt and again it is not true that he thought its fine i benefit from it im not going to do anything about it. I could talk about it but im not going to take any action in that regard so besides the reform i mentioned earlier that the office as i said the former political lieutenant monro signed the compromise bill that meant antislavery people were going to control the senate and others of that would be the end of slavery. The compromise meant the end of slavery. The Ongoing Campaign<\/a> was the attempt to figure out what to do about it within this colonization context was an effort for jefferson. They should have mentioned earlier at various times when he was still in high office he tried to find places which freed black people from virginia could be said so when he inquired the government about canada and inquired of them about sierra leone, which is a place to which free black people being sent by the british, he had the idea that this was a feasible outcome. And he also argued against the missouri exclusion idea, the idea that they should not be allowed to have slavery. It would be more difficult to abolish it as what is happening to share population in virginia. Aif they continue increasing it would be politically feasible to think about it. The fourth chapter of the book is about another as nowadays we call it a racial issue. When they arrived in north america when jefferson was a young man his father was the most important man around, and so if jefferson had repeated contact with indian leaders who were traveling from whats by this point are further left of here back to williamsburg sometimes annually and sometimes the cases to communicate with the government in Williamsburg Jefferson<\/a> learned at an early age to have some admiration for these people. Not only that, but he became involved in the significant dispute with the leading biologists in europe at the time. Fault argued that those in the western hemisphere were degenerates. That is, he said the people are degenerates compared to world of people. The animals that are naturally occurring in north america are smaller than the european animals and less numerous. This is all environmental and the application was if you are a fringe and thinking of moving to north america, you might want to move again. So others thought that was an implication of the argument, and one thing that the american political leaders at the time were interested in is trying to entice europeans to move to north america. So, for that reason and i think also because the sympathy for American Indians<\/a>, jefferson took up their costs. So, in the state of virginia, he lays out the skeptical case concerning the capacities and also lays out a forceful argument for the quality of American Indians<\/a> and says the difference between American Indians<\/a> and europeans is just culture. That is it to be assimilated into the European Society<\/a> if only they would give up on me gathering and become farmers like americans in virginia. Anyway at least in the abstract, jefferson had this idea and said if the American Indians<\/a> could be incorporated into the culture, they would be fit citizens of the United States<\/a>. This is an ongoing dispute. One that is even such now if you go see monticello, one of the first things you encounter is the large set of antlers. I caution you, dont think that this means he had a bad case of decorator. Thats what it is is a propaganda saying look, anything you have in europe, so this Shows North American<\/a> animals are not degenerate. When he sent lewis and clark to oregon, he said send me a woolly mammoth. Why would you think there would be, it is amazing, isnt it . They do things differently there. So, jefferson was living in the times when there hadnt been europeans going to the west and seeing what was there. He thought that mastodons still roamed the earth and if one of them could be maintained and this moved forth, they are better than european. He had to be content with a moose from maine which must have impressed people. But in any event, jefferson lost several of his consideration in the state of virginia, and as president in the office he argues for this, but of course once he becomes president , jefferson is involved in another cost and that is the race to see whether the United States<\/a> can be a transcontinental country. That is what needs to be discovering, being the first to claim the land on the west coast of north america. When it is assimilating into gameindiansand having it be a transcontinental country coming to conflict, it chooses the geostrategic and this of course is going to be an ultimately that is intellectual will decide on the removal. So i dont think that its fair to say jeffersons responsible for the indian removal. But, the impulse to defend American Indians<\/a> and to assimilate them if theyre already weekend jeffersons mind, then the impulse to win this transcontinental race. Finally, the final chapter of the book is jeffersons conception. Remember it is only 85 families in about two thirds of virginia and could we have a Public Society<\/a> in which as we think it was the case when would the revolution began about half of the adult life. He wrote a bill for the general confusion of knowledge, and its goal was to ensure all of virginia has a basis in the language including females. Besides that he hopes that ultimately on the marriage bas basis, they could be selected for the future Political Leadership<\/a> as a reformed college of william and mary. So what he is deciding on a course is that reforming is a various creation of what is a radically democratic kind of university which would consider the question and answer session, so i thank you for listening to me. [applause] we have a few minutes for questions and i will repeat several so they can transition. I might not have the opening question that is that the common characteristics between independent leaders and revolutionary leaders which is not most of them are from elite backgrounds so my question to you is [inaudible] why is he a radical . On his mothers side he does belong. What does that mean exactly . He goes on and on about his father and how great he was and then when he gets to the end of that section, he says essentially a mother was a randolph. So it is kind of like a Prince William<\/a> on account of himself and how the spencers have been involved in politics and Queen Elizabeth<\/a> and name all of the important counselors for the various monarchs. My fathers prince of wales. The significance of the revolution is hard to overstate. Thomas jefferson was a randolph, Edmund Randolph<\/a> was a randolph. At one point when he was governor, the Lieutenant Governor<\/a> was another randolph. Jeffersons idea here was not only that the feudal land tenure should be eliminated so the gigantic landholdings would be broken up. That is so that we would announce that the market would allow the version of landholdings. But he also proposed in his draft constitution for virginia in 1776 that if you were a virginia man and you depend on 50 acres of land, he would be given 50 acres of land. Virginia was an open space extending all the way to wisconsin. Why not make everybody a small farmer by giving everybody a small farm. We have all of this land and this is all avoiding the question because we dont really know the answer. Its weird when you think about it. Somebody should have been watching the situation and decide if therdecided has therea monarch because George Washington<\/a> was the closest thing. I could have supreme executive authority, but i dont want to. So, somebody like George Washington<\/a> despite im going to retire the important principle of the government. Principals retire earlier and establish the important principle of the government that the genitals support. We will not have those like me anymore in virginia. I dont know how she claimed this. It is april 1 in pro verse impulse in my way of thinking about political reality that when the political reality has made me so comfortable and powerful so that is probably enough satisfactory response. Already it leads to a lot more about his childhood. I do think though that another way of strengthening the outcome is to compare the opponents and whether they become celebrities, they were much more elitist than jefferson. They had a period of power they could try to abolish or take action against slavery and it didnt come so that might be another way of approaching the question. I dont know, do you do that in the book . Anyway, thank you very much indeed. Its been very stimulating. Kevin will be signing books upstairs as i think rachel is going to lead him around the backs of hes upstairs so please join me in thanking him. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] good afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon. My name is michael barone,","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia800404.us.archive.org\/17\/items\/CSPAN2_20170528_210000_Kevin_Gutzman_Discusses_Thomas_Jefferson_-_Revolutionary\/CSPAN2_20170528_210000_Kevin_Gutzman_Discusses_Thomas_Jefferson_-_Revolutionary.thumbs\/CSPAN2_20170528_210000_Kevin_Gutzman_Discusses_Thomas_Jefferson_-_Revolutionary_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240628T12:35:10+00:00"}